Letters of Recommendation

[grossmac]

I'm an MD/PhD student and I'll be doing two away electives at competitive programs during the month of August and September.

I was wondering how many letters of recommendation you and suggest and from who?

I was planning thru ERAS:
1. MD/PhD thesis advisor - home school
2. RadOnc Faculty from home school
3. MD/PhD program director - home school
4. Pathologist - home school

Then, once I receive (hopefully) a letter of recommendation at the two away electives, sending them separately to the schools?

Is this a good strategy? Should I get more letters (from home school) and send them separately - i.e. from Int Med, and others? Are there certain clinical fields that I should get a letter from? Any harm in including Pathology and MD/PhD program director letter?

Thanks

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[RadOncMan]

When getting letters, think quality over quantity. Must have letter from PI if you've spent 3-4 years working with him or her. Get at least 1 strong Rad Onc letter - ideally from someone who is well-known or is known (hint buddy buddies) by other program directors and/or chairman, and 1 additional letter - if it's from Rad Onc - great - but it would be better to submit a strong letter from a non-Rad Onc field than a weaker one from a Rad Onc field. Also, don't underestimate the importance of a letter from your Medicine SubInternship. It could make up A LOT for any deficiencies in your clinical performance otherwise.

 

[aspergillus]

I was also wondering about rec letters...what is more recommended? 2 letters from radonc department chair and co-chair, plus:

a) 1 letter from int med and 1 letter from peds
OR
b) 1 letter from another radonc attending who I know a bit better and I did clinical research w/ and 1 letter from either int med or peds

I get mixed messages depending on who I talk to and I dunno if it's better to stick w/ radonc recs since I've heard they only really care about reading letters from colleagues vs. submitting a more rounded out variety of letters. Any help would be much appreciated!

 

[Thaiger75]

If you can get a strong one from Surgery or Medicine, I would recommend adding that.

I'm an MD/PhD student and I'll be doing two away electives at competitive programs during the month of August and September.

I was wondering how many letters of recommendation you and suggest and from who?

I was planning thru ERAS:
1. MD/PhD thesis advisor - home school
2. RadOnc Faculty from home school
3. MD/PhD program director - home school
4. Pathologist - home school

Then, once I receive (hopefully) a letter of recommendation at the two away electives, sending them separately to the schools?

Is this a good strategy? Should I get more letters (from home school) and send them separately - i.e. from Int Med, and others? Are there certain clinical fields that I should get a letter from? Any harm in including Pathology and MD/PhD program director letter?

Thanks

 

[G'ville Nole]

Keep in mind that most programs only ask for 2-3 rec letters, and may get annoyed if you send more. I'd agree that emphasizing quality over quantity is wise. I had three letters, all from Rad Onc faculty (research mentor, home PD, away Dept Chair). An enthusiastic letter from a faculty member outside rad onc is fine, but I would recommend at least two letters from rad onc faculty (and, as has been stated numerous times here, the more recognizable the name, the better).

BTW, this strategy did not substantially hurt me in obtaining interviews for prelim spots, either.

 

[Gfunk6]

Keep in mind that most programs only ask for 2-3 rec letters, and may get annoyed if you send more.

I was going to send 4 recos before I read this. Right now I have three (research mentor, home chair radonc, away 'big name' radonc). I was going to add a fourth home radonc. Do you guys think this is overkill?

 

[stephew]

no i think its fine to send a fourth.

 

[stephew]

If you can get a strong one from Surgery or Medicine, I would recommend adding that.

honestly, i dont think anyone cares too much about that if you have another radonc one. Also remember comments from your rotation in surgery and medicine are added usualyl as part of the deans letter.

 

[G'ville Nole]

>>no i think its fine to send a fourth.<<

Some programs will specify how many letters they want, others leave it up to you. I didn't mean to imply that "by no means should you ever send four letters", but I have a sense that you begin to see diminishing returns when sending more than three, especially given the volume of material that PD's must sift through.

 

[Casey]

Ok, now you guys have made me paraniod. I was considering sending *gasp* five letters. I have letters from two "big name" rad oncs...definitely will send them. I also have a private rad onc guy that wrote a very enthusiastic letter, a heme/onc guy I did a sub-I with, and my research mentor. I am not a PhD so I thought the research letter would help with the whole "dedicated to academics" thing...Any suggestions on which to send?

Thanks,
Casey

 

[COhiker]

Without knowing much about any given situation I can tell you that I was told time and time again that "big name" letters were far more important than great letters from people less well known (or totally unknown). Cleary it would be best if you could get great letters from the big names but go for name over perceived quality.

(if this advice goes totally against the way you think things should be, I agree with you. It was the first of many unpleasant lessons I learned on the trail)

 

[Thaiger75]

So you're deciding on a 3rd LOR. Which one you send it depends on your interest in academics and which programs you are applying to. If you are interested in academics and research and are applying to an "academic" program, then definitely send in the research mentor. A clinical-minded program probably won't think too much of th research letter, so I would go with either of the other 2. I might lean towards the heme-onc, cuz you already have 2 big rad oncs.

Ok, now you guys have made me paraniod. I was considering sending *gasp* five letters. I have letters from two "big name" rad oncs...definitely will send them. I also have a private rad onc guy that wrote a very enthusiastic letter, a heme/onc guy I did a sub-I with, and my research mentor. I am not a PhD so I thought the research letter would help with the whole "dedicated to academics" thing...Any suggestions on which to send?

Thanks,
Casey

 

[jbernar1]

Ok, now you guys have made me paraniod. I was considering sending *gasp* five letters. I have letters from two "big name" rad oncs...definitely will send them. I also have a private rad onc guy that wrote a very enthusiastic letter, a heme/onc guy I did a sub-I with, and my research mentor. I am not a PhD so I thought the research letter would help with the whole "dedicated to academics" thing...Any suggestions on which to send?

Thanks,
Casey

My advice would be to send in all three rad onc letters and the research letter. Even the so called "clinical" programs are trying to become more academic. If you want to be a little diverse, then substitute the letter from the private rad onc guy for the heme/onc letter.

 

[stephew]

you know which one to send? send the BEST one if youve had the luxery of seeing it. the big name ones btw can also hurt you if they damn you w/faint praise (or worse, ding you)

 

[radonculus]

When I applied I was told by Dean of Student Affairs at my medical school that "My so-called big name" Chairman letter was outstanding as was a letter from the Vice-chairman at a respectable program. I then completed another rotation elsewhere assuming that the letter from a "so called big name Chairman" would be fabulous and it wasn't. We typically waive the right to view these letters. I found out after the fact that the letter was average with faint praise. Nothing spectacular seemed somewhat canned with name inserted. I also received a letter from a junior faculty member from one institution that was excellent very detailed and well written. Probably the best LOR that I ever received. Unfortunately, I played the name game and chose not to send the letter. I also waived the right to see this letter but he sent me a copy anyway. Looking back, I wished I would have sent that letter. The moral of the story you never know what they are going to write. You can send 3 letter via ERAS. I believe I sent 3 Rad Onc letters because the narrative portion of my Dean's letter contained verbatim quotes from my respective rotation evaluations. My prelim/transitional letters were one Internal Med Sub-I/Chairman, Ob-Gyn Chair (whose daughter coincidentally is well known in Rad Onc), and Pediatrics. Hope that helps.

 

[G'ville Nole]

Steph makes an excellent point. Since it's generally assumed that you waive your right to review the letters, getting one from a big name that says "so-and-so rotated here in August and performed adequately" (that's NOT good, BTW) would be a strike against you if you sent it to all of your programs. In cases where you are soliciting these letters, ask the individual if they would be comfortable writing a STRONG rec letter for you. Take any hesitation as a "no".

In case it's not already obvious, there is no right answer to this question. In general, attendings with whom you have a good relationship, especially those who you've worked with in a research capacity, are going to write the best letters. If you don't currently enjoy this sort of relationship with a rad onc faculty member (especially if you are MS1-3 right now), find one now and work hard to develop a good relationship. However, MS4's at this stage are by no means "out of the loop", just do your best during your rotations, and it will work out. Many of you will end up with nice rec letters from Dept. Chairs after a scant four weeks of hard work in their department. Believe me, it happens all the time.

And then, it's still nerve wracking, since the guy next to you during the interview has letters from Gilbert Fletcher and Jesus.

Yeah, everyone was getting warm fuzzies till the last sentence, huh? It's okay, I'm pretty sure the guy forged the Jesus letter.

 

[penumbra]

Interesting... I guess I had the impression from earlier threads that getting a "big name" letter is a big deal in this field in terms of getting our feet into the door during interviews. You're bringing up a very good point in that since we can't see the letter, we could very well be hurting ourself if the letter is not strong. Does that happen often? Are attendings pretty straight forward and direct if we ask them if they can write a strong letter for us?

 

[Casey]

Just want to clarify the benefits of a letter from a research mentor...do the letters still hold weight if the research was not in Rad Onc?

 

[G'ville Nole]

Just want to clarify the benefits of a letter from a research mentor...do the letters still hold weight if the research was not in Rad Onc?

Absolutely. There are two questions you can absolutely count on being asked at every interview:

1. Why radiation oncology?
2. Tell me about your research.

Even programs with a clinical bent will ask you this. I think it is pretty essential that you have a decent answer for the first, and that you are able to speak intelligently about the second. Even non-RT research is looked upon favorably, because it demonstrates an enthusiasm in being academically rigorous, which quite honestly is what rad onc residency programs demand.

 

[stephew]

well hang on; there are programs that actually overlook people who express a strong desire to do reseach. so be careful. G'ville's points are very well taken, but just go in with you eyes open and dont convince anyone you're NOT what they're looking for.

 

[Butch]

Here are a few comments regarding letters of recommendation. I was a recent applicant who matched and I am not on faculty, so take that into consideration.

1. LOR are very important for Radiation Oncology. It is a bit surprising since one usually spends about one month at a given institution. Again, LORs are very important. Radiation oncology is a small field and most faculty at academic institutions know one another quite well.

2. LORs from outside of radiation oncology do not carry as much weight, although they are important.

3. You will have an advantage at programs that know your letter writers. I had LORs from two faculty who were well-known and respected at the program where I matched.

4. All other things being equal, it is good to have a "big name" write your letter. However, a lukewarm letter from someone well known is detremental.

Good luck to all of the applicants for this year.

 

[G'ville Nole]

well hang on; there are programs that actually overlook people who express a strong desire to do reseach. so be careful. G'ville's points are very well taken, but just go in with you eyes open and dont convince anyone you're NOT what they're looking for.

I agree with you, Steph, but on the narrower point of whether or not to include a letter from your research mentor, I'd still say an emphatic 'yes!' I don't think that doing so commits an applicant to a career in research. Prior to interviews, I'd have to think that the personal statement would speak volumes more in this regard. On balance (and assuming you've done some meaningful research), your mentor is likely to have had pretty extensive personal interaction with you, and will be able to write a fairly detailed and positive letter. During interviews, programs WILL ask about it. That's fine, because it gives you a chance to demonstrate your solid knowledge of the subject matter. Upon being asked, you don't have to rant about how you want to spend the rest of career behind a wet-bench (be careful what you ask for!)

I think that all this emphasis on research may be misleading to the applicants out there. Radiation Oncology is an academically intense field, but it is still a CLINICAL one. While there are extreme programs on either end of the research-clinical spectrum, most will tell you that they want to produce good clinicians. So please, take this advice in perspective. There is no set formula, and perhaps the best advice is to develop a clear picture of what you want to achieve in the field. The great thing is that there really is a niche for anyone, from hardcore-rarely-see-a-patient-ivory-tower-academic to hardcore-rarely-pick-up-a copy-of-the-red-journal-private-practice.

 

[CNphair]

Does anybody have any recommendations for what to do about visiting rotations later in the fall? I will be visiting a program from mid-september to mid-october. I will have already submitted my application to ERAS with other Rad Onc letters. If I do manage to get a good letter, is it too late? Do I send it out as a fifth letter? Or just send it to that particular program?

Thanks!

 

[CUBuffsgrad98]

I too have had problems in the LOR area.

I recently rotated through a prominent rad onc department. Two faculty told me I had shown more interest than any student in a long time, I was very bright, would be a great asset, etc, etc. I should get 2 great letters from them. However they are a bit lower on the totem pole there.

I approached the "name" at the institution and asked if he would be comfortable writing a strong letter....he responded by saying "I guess I could write you a letter". Probably going to be a canned letter, simply because he simply didnt care what was going on around him (I dont think Gilbert Fletcher himself could impress him if he was anything less than an attending at the time).

Also, I have had others in medicine, surgery, etc comment directly on my eval how good I was, and then write very canned letters of rec for me. Frustrating.

Finally, I also have the question about post Sept 1st letters. If I already sent in my application, will a letter that comes in early/mid Oct (or later!) make any difference?

 

[Gfunk6]

Quick question: Most programs have already uploaded my 4 letters of recommendation, but I got a 5th "big name" one I would like to send. ERAS only lets you upload four. I think my options are:

1. "Remove" a LOR if a program has already downloaded it and add the new one

2. Politely ask the program's secretary to mail out the LOR to all the programs individually

Suggestions?

 

[stephew]

if you can do both that's probably best; im just thinking that option number one may mean that programs that already downloaded your four may not get the "new" one.

 

[jbernar1]

I switched out letters of recommendation twice last year. Programs uploaded information regularly so I am sure that they will get the new one.

 

[CUBuffsgrad98]

So does that mean programs will then have 5 letters from you? Do programs look down on this? I was thinking of sending some 5 letters with the fifth by asking my school to fax it to programs....bad idea?

 

[Gfunk6]

So does that mean programs will then have 5 letters from you? Do programs look down on this? I was thinking of sending some 5 letters with the fifth by asking my school to fax it to programs....bad idea?

Yes they'll have 5 LORs from me. Is that bad? I have no idea. But I think all of them (1 research mentor, 4 RadOnc) have something important to say about my future potential as a radiation oncologist. Of course, not having read them I could not say that there is considerable overlap.

In either case, I'm willing to risk it.

 

[jbernar1]

So does that mean programs will then have 5 letters from you?

Depends. If they have printed a hard copy of your 1st set of letters, then yes. If not, then they will not be able to view your old letter online anymore.

 

[ronmexico]

more letters than the program actually asks for? many websites are pretty clear on the number of lors requested. harvard asks for 4. indiana asks for 2. most others say 3. some dont specify. eras allows transmission of 4 as we all know and the discussion has been about how to send 5. is there anything to be said about just sending the amount the program asks for? or should we just send the 4 eras will allow? any input would be appreciated.

 

[khybs]

i'm a reapplicant to Rad Onc and I have a little stockpile of letters now, but they are all a year old... does that matter?

Right now i have

1) Rad Onc Vice Chair MD
2) Guy in Rad Onc everyone knows, MD
3) Rad Onc Chair MD
4) Strong Cardiology letter, MD

I have the option of getting a new red onc letter from a recent rotation but we don't have a program at the hospital so I don't know how far it will go. Should I? I also can get a letter from a PI I've been working with for 1 year now. I could throw that in there to? If either, which should I replace? I was thinking #4 then #3.

 

[trjb]

This link should be helpful for those thinking of changing letters out.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=231050