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I'm changing the title of my post, since the conversation in this thread has absolutely nothing to do with my original question!
Originally posted by Polar girl
The Jesuit schools are not necessarily conservative... They're all about helping the underprivileged, and stuff like that that's more liberal.
Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
Do liberals want to go to liberal schools? I thought you guys wanted DIVERSITY.
True liberals would want to go to the most conservative schools. Because their mere presence adds to the diversity on campus.
Originally posted by Street Philosopher
health care is a privilege, not a right. this society often confuses what is desired with what is to be rightfully demanded.
Originally posted by Street Philosopher
health care is a privilege, not a right. this society often confuses what is desired with what is to be rightfully demanded.
Originally posted by SMW
An incredible statement,coming from a physician-to-be. Shall we just let all the sick babies who didn't ask to be born die because their parents can't afford to pay for the privilege? And while we're at it, let's start charging people for the privileges of clean water, sewage treatment, and public schooling.
It has been fashionable for some time now and in many aspects of American public life for people to demand what they want or need as a matter of rights.
-- Leon R. Kass, Head of the President's Council on Bioethics
Originally posted by Street Philosopher
saying that healthcare is a right is a nice mantra that makes us feel better, but i personally think that's all it is.
clean water, sewage treatment, and public schooling are not rights either.
Originally posted by lola
i beg to differ. in a country so wealthy, they should be rights. we spend so much money on the military, the space program, etc... if we can't keep our population healthy and educated and our streets sanitary, we should not be spending that money.
"...Grounded neither in nature nor in reason, it demonstrates the nihilistic implication of a new doctrine of rights, rooted in the self-creating will."
Leon R. Kass
Originally posted by lola
sickening, isn't it?
Originally posted by SMW
I am really surprised at you SP. Yes, we pay taxes for clean water, sewage treatment and education. Maybe you'd like to take those things away from people who are too poor to pay taxes? We are all paying for everyone's health care anyway, by the increased insurance rates due to all the uninsured having to use emergency rooms, etc. so we might as well skip paying all those middlemen, and go straight to a single-payer system. Here is an excellent article you might want to read to get educated on the matter:
The Forgotten Domestic Crisis, by Marcia Angell, former editor in chief of the New England Journal of Medicine and a senior lecturer at Harvard Medical School.
Originally posted by SMW
I am really surprised at you SP. Yes, we pay taxes for clean water, sewage treatment and education. Maybe you'd like to take those things away from people who are too poor to pay taxes? We are all paying for everyone's health care anyway, by the increased insurance rates due to all the uninsured having to use emergency rooms, etc. so we might as well skip paying all those middlemen, and go straight to a single-payer system. Here is an excellent article you might want to read to get educated on the matter:
The Forgotten Domestic Crisis, by Marcia Angell, former editor in chief of the New England Journal of Medicine and a seneior lecturer at Harvard Medical School.
Originally posted by saiyagirl
sp,
you also haven't given one reason defending your beliefs. i'd like to hear them.
Originally posted by SMW
So you think the poor shouldn't have clean water, sewage treatment, good roads, schools, etc? They are not paying for them, so to be consistent you'd should be in favor of taking those things away from them. I think you're a little confused. I know I am confused by your argument!
Originally posted by Street Philosopher
You are still confusing what I would like in society with what I believe we should demand of from society. I want healthcare for everyone. I want high living conditions in the form of clean water, sewage treatment, and education. Because I want these things, because I care for other people, I am satisfied, no, I encourage the distribution of resources to meet these needs. But I do not believe any of these things are rights.
Originally posted by Street Philosopher
I want high living conditions in the form of clean water, sewage treatment, and education. Because I want these things, because I care for other people, I am satisfied, no, I encourage the distribution of resources to meet these needs. But I do not believe any of these things are rights.
Originally posted by saiyagirl
okay, sp.
so what i get from your argument is you believe healthcare is not a right. And you claim that clean water, waste disposal, and education are also not rights, based on the fact that we pay taxes for them.
you also say you would support the distribution of resources to finance healthcare. so even though you say healthcare is not a right, it seems you would support some sort of government financed healthcare system. (considering that education, clean water, and waste disposals are government-financed, highly regulated industries).
i can understand why you believe healthcare is not a right based on your argument (though i think your argument is flawed...how does a right "demand others hand over what is rightfully theirs?" show me an example of this. Doesn't the current market system infringe upon the rights of people to be treated as an end in themselves, not as means, when they are denied coverage if they cannot pay? They're being treated as a means for corporate profit. )
what would you say about healthcare as a public good?
Originally posted by saiyagirl
okay, sp.
how does a right "demand others hand over what is rightfully theirs?" show me an example of this. Doesn't the current market system infringe upon the rights of people to be treated as an end in themselves, not as means, when they are denied coverage if they cannot pay? They're being treated as a means for corporate profit.)
what would you say about healthcare as a public good?
Originally posted by SMW
What about the rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"? Seems like healthcare kind of fits in there. But I don't think they'd make it under your thinking (sic). Excuse me for saying so, SP, but your thinking is really very muddled. Plus you never answer a question that anyone asks you.
Originally posted by Street Philosopher
example of demanding what is rightfully mine is pretty simple. i have the right to free speech. if you try to censor what i say, i have the right to demand my free speech back. or simply, if someone takes my kidney when I'm sleeping, i have the right to demand that back.
Originally posted by Street Philosopher
the current system does infringe upon the rights of people to be treated as ends and not means. this society is blatantly utilitarian, and only "backpeddles" when it is convenient to protect some privileges and rights. your example of being denied healthcare as being treated as means is, in my opinion, misguided. since there is no right to healthcare in the first place, denying the right to healthcare is not infringing on any rights. this of course changes once you have a contract, viz insurance. [/B]
Originally posted by finney
a physician in a world where every person has the "right" of health care would become a slave to society's medical needs.
by the way does this "right" to health care end at the US border?
Originally posted by saiyagirl
if we were to deny people access to healthcare for whatever reason--aren't we taking away their natural right to live?
And how am i claiming that there even is a natural right to live? Since you claim that the right not to be murdered is a natural right, i say the right to live follows logically as a natural right.
how is our society utiltairian? i thought utilitarianism was taking actions that would promote the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people. that's not what our healthcare system is doing now.
Originally posted by SMW
An incredible statement,coming from a physician-to-be. Shall we just let all the sick babies who didn't ask to be born die because their parents can't afford to pay for the privilege? And while we're at it, let's start charging people for the privileges of clean water, sewage treatment, and public schooling.
Originally posted by UCLA2000
UPenn is very liberal in many ways. The administration is also very supportive of its students.
Originally posted by banannie
after all, doesn't every individual have a right to a public defender? i would argue that under the same logic, every individual should have a right to decent health care when they are sick.
Originally posted by saiyagirl
i guess i wonder (and i'm generalizing this) whether it is possible to violate someone else's rights by FAILING to act in a way that would help them if they were vulnerable and if you were in a position to help them.
Originally posted by Random Access
So you're saying that doctors must treat everyone no matter what???? Because they are in a position to help people, regardless of whether those people can afford it? I don't see how this obligation should be the burden of doctors.
I don't see how that would be violating someone's rights. The right to life isn't the right to be kept alive.