liberty medical school <facepalm>

[SurgeDO]

Yes and no. Yes because I most for-profit schools aren't going to be academic programs. No because image wise the profession is cushioned by a lot of positive regard. The DO profession is at least in the eyes of many program directors seen as a collective entity. So CCOM, PCOM = Liberty. I think that's dangerous for all DO graduates.

I disagree. I think the majority of PDs know the reputation of the established osteopathic schools at least.

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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I disagree. I think the majority of PDs know the reputation of the established osteopathic schools at least.

Many residents have reflected that they don't, which is why it is dangerous for us.

 

[Didierdrogba]

I disagree. I think the majority of PDs know the reputation of the established osteopathic schools at least.

This is not the impression that I have. I think DO schools tend to be lumped together in the eyes of ACGME MD program directors

 

[SurgeDO]

This is not the impression that I have. I think DO schools tend to be lumped together in the eyes of ACGME MD program directors

Meh, I think both of us only have anecdotes to go off of. The few 4th years at my school who applied ACGME last year mentioned PDs were well acquainted with my school when it came time to interview. It's hard for me to believe that PDs would have a difficult time recognizing some of these century old medical schools.

 

[Didierdrogba]

Meh, I think both of us only have anecdotes to go off of. The few 4th years at my school who applied ACGME last year mentioned PDs were well acquainted with my school when it came time to interview. It's hard for me to believe that PDs would have a difficult time recognizing some of these century old medical schools.

May I ask what region your school is in? I guess it could be very regional as well.

 

[SurgeDO]

May I ask what region your school is in? I guess it could be very regional as well.

Midwest.

I'm sure there was some regional influence, too. However, some of my friends told me PDs (university and community) had good things to say about my school in different regions of the country as well.

I guess there really is no way to tell.

 

[Nymphicus]

I disagree. I think the majority of PDs know the reputation of the established osteopathic schools at least.

Not unless it's super regional, as in down the street or in the same city/referring base.

Or they have had (multiple) good experiences with applicants/residents from a specific school in the past. Which may be unlikely, depending on the institution.

 

[JGimpel]

University of Phoenix College of Osteopathic Medicine

 

[Didierdrogba]

University of Phoenix College of Osteopathic Medicine

is gonna happen sooner than we know it

 

[OhHey]

This can't be allowed to happen. If D.O.s expect to be treated as equals to M.D.s we can't allow a school supported by the tobacco commission to open. On top of that to be affiliated with a university that is famous for its stance against evolution is a double embarrassment. It makes a mockery of our profession and makes all D.O.s and D.O. students look bad. Who ever is in charge of deciding what schools are allowed to open must squash this idea ASAP!

O cmon. Just don't go to liberty then. And stop being so insecure about being D.O. This lack of confidence is make D.O.s look bad in the first place.

 

[TriagePreMed]

O cmon. Just don't go to liberty then. And stop being so insecure about being D.O. This lack of confidence is make D.O.s look bad in the first place.

You're crazy if you don't think this has an impact on a minority profession such as this one. Being associated in any way with tobacco and lunatic right-wing science deniers will affect the entire profession. It's already bad enough with the cranial clowns that can't accept it doesn't work and instead don't focus on areas where OMM works or more research needs to be done.

COCA in its dumb attempt of making money now and expand the number of osteopathic physicians like crazy isn't seeing the future consequences on the profession. Less than ever do people practice OMM and in much larger numbers are they turning to DO schools instead of Caribbean MD due to the DO clinical acceptance. Added is the fact that now MDs will be overseeing everything DO residencies/fellowships do. Eventually this will mean a shift in balance and likely the absorption of the profession.

 

[deleted480308]

You're crazy if you don't think this has an impact on a minority profession such as this one. Being associated in any way with tobacco and lunatic right-wing science deniers will affect the entire profession. It's already bad enough with the cranial clowns that can't accept it doesn't work and instead don't focus on areas where OMM works or more research needs to be done.

COCA in its dumb attempt of making money now and expand the number of osteopathic physicians like crazy isn't seeing the future consequences on the profession. Less than ever do people practice OMM and in much larger numbers are they turning to DO schools instead of Caribbean MD due to the DO clinical acceptance. Added is the fact that now MDs will be overseeing everything DO residencies/fellowships do. Eventually this will mean a shift in balance and likely the absorption of the profession.

"I was going to start using dr. Triagepremed as my family doc but then, while doing exhaustive research on their medical education I discovered the haunting truth that there are actually two types of medical schools, and one of the 30 of the type that trieagepremed went to has a christian mindset and believes in creation.....therefore dr triagepremed is clearly a snakeoil salesman who would be unable to accurately administer the strepthroat tests I need for the kids occasionally".......said no one ever in all of history or in the future

 

[Didierdrogba]

"I was going to start using dr. Triagepremed as my family doc but then, while doing exhaustive research on their medical education I discovered the haunting truth that there are actually two types of medical schools, and one of the 30 of the type that trieagepremed went to has a christian mindset and believes in creation.....therefore dr triagepremed is clearly a snakeoil salesman who would be unable to accurately administer the strepthroat tests I need for the kids occasionally".......said no one ever in all of history or in the future

It's not about individual doctors, but about the profession as a whole. our profession must not be associated with controversial institutions such as LIberty University if we want to retain the profession's reputation and make sure our diploma is still worth money years down the line

 

[Telekinesis]

It's not about individual doctors, but about the profession as a whole. our profession must not be associated with controversial institutions such as LIberty University if we want to retain the profession's reputation and make sure our diploma is still worth money years down the line

You guys are really making mountains out of mole hills. This is RVU all over again.

 

[deleted480308]

It's not about individual doctors, but about the profession as a whole. our profession must not be associated with controversial institutions such as LIberty University if we want to retain the profession's reputation and make sure our diploma is still worth money years down the line

As long as DO has legal practice rights it won't matter.....most patients don't even know DO/MD distinctions exist. They just think a doctor is a doctor. A lot of them can't tell the difference between a DNP and a doctor if they wear the same coat

 

[TriagePreMed]

It's not about individual doctors, but about the profession as a whole. our profession must not be associated with controversial institutions such as LIberty University if we want to retain the profession's reputation and make sure our diploma is still worth money years down the line

Also, this guy acts like the majority of people are calm, rational and well informed. People already have all these crazy ideas about DO. There's no need to add to it the fact that Liberty University and their crazies are a part of the profession. The school is in the news all the time for their controversial, ignorant stuff. To think people won't associate it with the DO degree is ludicrous.

 

[Didierdrogba]

As long as DO has legal practice rights it won't matter.....most patients don't even know DO/MD distinctions exist. They just think a doctor is a doctor. A lot of them can't tell the difference between a DNP and a doctor if they wear the same coat

Keep going down that road we will lose our rights

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Keep going down that road we will lose our rights

I said it before and I'll say it again. The AMA & LCME will eventually take over and supersede and shut down any attempt by these shacks.

 

[Mosonik]

It's not about individual doctors, but about the profession as a whole. our profession must not be associated with controversial institutions such as LIberty University if we want to retain the profession's reputation and make sure our diploma is still worth money years down the line

COCA is not some mysterious big brother. It is comprised of DOs who have every motivation to preserve the respectability and professionalism of their degree/credentials. Do you think they would deliberately attempt to compromise their own degree?
I don't. You may disagree with some of their decisions, nothing wrong with that, but to suggest they are as ignorant as you suggest is silly.

I said it before and I'll say it again. The AMA & LCME will eventually take over and supersede and shut down any attempt by these shacks.

This is probably true. Though first step will be the unified residency accreditation.

 

[Didierdrogba]

COCA is not some mysterious big brother. It is comprised of DOs who have every motivation to preserve the respectability and professionalism of their degree/credentials. Do you think they would deliberately attempt to compromise their own degree?
I don't. You may disagree with some of their decisions, nothing wrong with that, but to suggest they are as ignorant as you suggest is silly.

LOL, you might also suggest that the AOA is comprised of people who have "motivation to preserve the respectability and professionalism of their degree/credentials" But, they are just kinda making a joke out of themselves right now as well. Look at how much people criticize them now.

They will not compromise their own degree, but they will try to make the max profit. IF anything happens, their licenses will just be grandfathered. But for newer DO students, tsk tsk tsk...who knows


Anyways, Liberty is always in the news for the wrong/controversial reasons (name ONE positive thing that they are in the news for), we certainly don't need that.

 

[Mosonik]

Don't get me wrong I don't condone many of Liberty U's choices or leadership's feelings and they certainly don't represent my opinions even though they technically share my faith system but that doesn't mean that they will be downfall of the profession.

On a different note though they will likely have trouble finding the quality of faculty and admin that many of the other new programs and local programs have snatched up the last few years. For that, I would be concerned

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Don't get me wrong I don't condone many of Liberty U's choices or leadership's feelings and they certainly don't represent my opinions even though they technically share my faith system but that doesn't mean that they will be downfall of the profession.

On a different note though they will likely have trouble finding the quality of faculty and admin that many of the other new programs and local programs have snatched up the last few years. For that, I would be concerned

I'm going to be curious who they will find to teach embryology tbh. No embryologist will want to associate with Liberty.

 

[DocVapor]

I'm going to be curious who they will find to teach embryology tbh. No embryologist will want to associate with Liberty.

I'm sure they will be able to find someone that has been in postdoc limbo (hell) for a few years that will be happy to get a real paycheck.

 

[TriagePreMed]

COCA is not some mysterious big brother. It is comprised of DOs who have every motivation to preserve the respectability and professionalism of their degree/credentials. Do you think they would deliberately attempt to compromise their own degree?
I don't. You may disagree with some of their decisions, nothing wrong with that, but to suggest they are as ignorant as you suggest is silly.

The problem is you're assuming everyone is rational and has good intentions. I shadowed a crazy DO who was telling me about the benefits of faith healing and he was saying you could do some kind of acupuncture that would preemptively deactivate your allergic reaction to stuff and then you'd be fine eating whatever gives you allergies. I could see this guy supporting Liberty University, and he's not some lone nobody DO; he's a clinical professor at one of the better schools. There are also people out there that just want to stuff their pockets and could care less about the profession or how it would affect the new generation down the line.

I'm going to be curious who they will find to teach embryology tbh. No embryologist will want to associate with Liberty.

There's always some ******* out there. No respectable geologist should teach young earth creationism, but there are geology professors there. There was one guy that made his dissertation with assertions that the world was millions of years old and then turned around and taught it was only 6k years old at Liberty.

 

[deleted480308]

I have a number of friends that graduated from Liberty, young earth creationism is the policy of the school....not the belief of the students

 

[Starry]

The problem is you're assuming everyone is rational and has good intentions. I shadowed a crazy DO who was telling me about the benefits of faith healing and he was saying you could do some kind of acupuncture that would preemptively deactivate your allergic reaction to stuff and then you'd be fine eating whatever gives you allergies. I could see this guy supporting Liberty University, and he's not some lone nobody DO; he's a clinical professor at one of the better schools. There are also people out there that just want to stuff their pockets and could care less about the profession or how it would affect the new generation down the line.


There's always some ******* out there. No respectable geologist should teach young earth creationism, but there are geology professors there. There was one guy that made his dissertation with assertions that the world was millions of years old and then turned around and taught it was only 6k years old at Liberty.

Wow. Wow. Wow.
"Anaphylaxis? I don't need no Epi-pen! GO GREEN, GO NATURAL, GO ACUPUNCTURE!"

 

[GUH]

Yeah I'm not sure how much it matters whether my surgeon believes the earth is millions of years old or thousands of years old or hundreds of years old, whether he believes there is a pie in the sky, or whether pigs can fly. None of that is important in medicine. It matters even less whether my surgeon's medical school professors believed in those things because it's unlikely that they even came up during school.

 

[Telekinesis]

Mods need to go ahead and lock this one. At this point now it's just speculation and hyperbole.

 

[ZezKaiEll]

I said it before and I'll say it again. The AMA & LCME will eventually take over and supersede and shut down any attempt by these shacks.

This is probably true. Though first step will be the unified residency accreditation.

You guys really think so? I thought the AMA and LCME had no power over DO school accreditation. Or are you saying that COCA will eventually merge with or be replaced by the allopathic accrediting groups? If so why do you think this would happen?

I was reading on AOA's website and it was talking about how it could become a member of the ACGME accreditation body thus unifying the overseeing group for residencies. Is this similar to what you are predicting will happen with medical schools? Does this mean that they may shut down certain AOA residencies as well that don't meet its own standards?

 

[Didierdrogba]

Yeah I'm not sure how much it matters whether my surgeon believes the earth is millions of years old or thousands of years old or hundreds of years old, whether he believes there is a pie in the sky, or whether pigs can fly. None of that is important in medicine. It matters even less whether my surgeon's medical school professors believed in those things because it's unlikely that they even came up during school.

As I said before, and for the 84th time:

It doesnt matter whatever the heck your surgeon thinks, but what the University endorses DOES have an impact on the profession overall. If you don't want DO's to lose credibility, it's best not to have ties with universities with controversial thoughts, especially when it comes to hard core fundamentalism.

 

[Mosonik]

You guys really think so? I thought the AMA and LCME had no power over DO school accreditation. Or are you saying that COCA will eventually merge with or be replaced by the allopathic accrediting groups? If so why do you think this would happen?

I was reading on AOA's website and it was talking about how it could become a member of the ACGME accreditation body thus unifying the overseeing group for residencies. Is this similar to what you are predicting will happen with medical schools? Does this mean that they may shut down certain AOA residencies as well that don't meet its own standards?

No, those agencies currently have no power over COCA or DO schools in general. And until the final details are worked out, residencies and the match system will also remain totally separate.
My speculation is merely that it seems inevitable in the next few decades that with the merger of residency's under ACGME, the oversight of medical education will also be a place of potential merger that will be explored. And frankly, it is probably for the better for all parties involved, even if distinctions like OMM training never totally overlap/unify. The structure for the proposed GME merger is that the AOA/AACOM will be like "subclusters" within ACGME and I think that COCA would probably be the same thing under the LCME.

If I were you I wouldn't be worried about it. Depending on where you are the process it could even benefit you. I can only pray that my class will receive the GREAT benefit of a single match.

Yes though, with the residency mergers if/when certain AOA-accredited residencies don't meet the uniform standards they would go through the same process that all current ACGME programs do, which in my understanding is probation and if uncorrected, closure. Unless the AOA program couldn't feasibly make the improvements in which case yeah it would close and the money would be reallocated to another potential existing or expanding program for their slots.

 

[GUH]

No, those agencies currently have no power over COCA or DO schools in general. And until the final details are worked out, residencies and the match system will also remain totally separate.
My speculation is merely that it seems inevitable in the next few decades that with the merger of residency's under ACGME, the oversight of medical education will also be a place of potential merger that will be explored. And frankly, it is probably for the better for all parties involved, even if distinctions like OMM training never totally overlap/unify. The structure for the proposed GME merger is that the AOA/AACOM will be like "subclusters" within ACGME and I think that COCA would probably be the same thing under the LCME.

If I were you I wouldn't be worried about it. Depending on where you are the process it could even benefit you. I can only pray that my class will receive the GREAT benefit of a single match.

Yes though, with the residency mergers if/when certain AOA-accredited residencies don't meet the uniform standards they would go through the same process that all current ACGME programs do, which in my understanding is probation and if uncorrected, closure. Unless the AOA program couldn't feasibly make the improvements in which case yeah it would close and the money would be reallocated to another potential existing or expanding program for their slots.

Still not sure what the advantage of a single match is for DO students, especially those who are considering entering into more competitive specialties and won't be able to have the added benefit of DO-only programs.

If you really think that MD PD's are all of a sudden going to get their heads out of their asses and start treating DO's like real medical students, you may be in for a surprise.

 

[Mosonik]

Still not sure what the advantage of a single match is for DO students, especially those who are considering entering into more competitive specialties and won't be able to have the added benefit of DO-only programs.

If you really think that MD PD's are all of a sudden going to get their heads out of their asses and start treating DO's like real medical students, you may be in for a surprise.

It's true it wouldn't benefit all DO's, especially once attempting for ultra-competitive specialties, but for the majority, not having to worry about whether to rank AOA programs before the MD match has many advantages. Some AOA programs may actually get ranked against ACGME ones if the match combined and it would force programs to be at the top of their game.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Still not sure what the advantage of a single match is for DO students, especially those who are considering entering into more competitive specialties and won't be able to have the added benefit of DO-only programs.

If you really think that MD PD's are all of a sudden going to get their heads out of their asses and start treating DO's like real medical students, you may be in for a surprise.

The advantage is being boarded and regulated by a single entity and thusly every residency will be considered a "competent" one. Furthermore it allows DO students to continue to match into fellowships if they completed a former AOA internship. It is frankly a gigantic push for recognition of residencies.
Furthermore the same goes for AOA PDs. I'm doubtful that many AOA PDs will be accepting any less than 90% DOs in most of these residencies and over time the stigma with decrease and presence of DOs will help bring the MD PDs to be more accepting followed by eventually just the dissolving of the DO profession into a unified MD ( yes, I'm betting on it).

 

[GUH]

The advantage is being boarded and regulated by a single entity and thusly every residency will be considered a "competent" one. Furthermore it allows DO students to continue to match into fellowships if they completed a former AOA internship. It is frankly a gigantic push for recognition of residencies.
Furthermore the same goes for AOA PDs. I'm doubtful that many AOA PDs will be accepting any less than 90% DOs in most of these residencies and over time the stigma with decrease and presence of DOs will help bring the MD PDs to be more accepting followed by eventually just the dissolving of the DO profession into a unified MD ( yes, I'm betting on it).

I've never heard of a DO orthopedic surgeon having trouble finding a job because of his AOA residency training.
What is your basis for believing that ACGME residency and fellowship PD's will all have a change of heart towards DO applicants?
Why are you going DO if you are advocating for the elimination of the osteopathic profession?

 

[Didierdrogba]

If you really think that MD PD's are all of a sudden going to get their heads out of their asses and start treating DO's like real medical students, you may be in for a surprise.

my thoughts exactly

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I've never heard of a DO orthopedic surgeon having trouble finding a job because of his AOA residency training.
What is your basis for believing that ACGME residency and fellowship PD's will all have a change of heart towards DO applicants?
Why are you going DO if you are advocating for the elimination of the osteopathic profession?

I'm advocating more for the regulation of the DO and MD profession by a single organization. And I'm going DO for a number of reasons, mostly of which is because I want to be a doctor.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

my thoughts exactly

In time they will as the presence of quality DOs becomes more visible and felt in the upper tiers of medicine.

 

[SurgeDO]

Still not sure what the advantage of a single match is for DO students, especially those who are considering entering into more competitive specialties and won't be able to have the added benefit of DO-only programs.

If you really think that MD PD's are all of a sudden going to get their heads out of their asses and start treating DO's like real medical students, you may be in for a surprise.

The advantage of a single match is not having to worry about bypassing the AOA match. Because of this, DOs are going to be a lot braver when considering ranking ACGME programs which will most likely lead to more matches in ACGME programs.

A single match may not necessarily benefit MDs or DOs more than the other, but it will benefit competitive applicants more.

 

[Didierdrogba]

In time they will as the presence of quality DOs becomes more visible and felt in the upper tiers of medicine.

how much time?

 

[NurWollen]

how much time?

Won't a lot of those older PD's (where a lot of the bias is seen) will be retiring in the next 10-15 years anyway, with or without the merger? The common wisdom is that's its already vastly better for DOs than it was maybe 20 years ago. Hopefully the merger will catalyze the acceptance if DOs a bit in those last pockets of bias, but you're right, it certainly won't be sudden.

 

[ZezKaiEll]

Is the ACGME merger already confirmed or is it just a foregone conclusion that it will happen one way or another? The AOA's website says that it "has entered into discussions" and that 2015 is the target date for implementation. The timeline they link to suggests they are still in the process of hammering out the details.

I think this is for the best. A unified body on something this important will likely benefit everyone involved in the long run.

 

[Mosonik]

Is the ACGME merger already confirmed or is it just a foregone conclusion that it will happen one way or another? The AOA's website says that it "has entered into discussions" and that 2015 is the target date for implementation. The timeline they link to suggests they are still in the process of hammering out the details.

I think this is for the best. A unified body on something this important will likely benefit everyone involved in the long run.

It seems inevitable since the reason the merger was discussed to begin with was that the ACGME threatened to close off their fellowships to DOs coming from AOA residencies. That problem will not go away so the only conclusion that really can be drawn is that it is no longer IF but when.

 

[NOsaintsfan]

This couldn't be more of a nonissue. I'm actually a little surprised so many are upset.

Let me ask a question? Where do you learn (get taught) how to practice medicine? If your answer was medical school then I have a follow up. After graduation from medical school where are you licensed to practice? What's that? Nowhere?

Yea you can't practice squat after graduation from medical school. RESIDENCY is where you are tought the skills of "being a doctor".

In light of this there is very little that evil tobacco can do to corrupt future physicians. Besides we're all taught to be self learners and critical thinkers (right). If that's the case how much effect do you think tobacco could have?

Move on people this is a nonissue.

 

[Telekinesis]

This couldn't be more of a nonissue. I'm actually a little surprised so many are upset.

Let me ask a question? Where do you learn (get taught) how to practice medicine? If your answer was medical school then I have a follow up. After graduation from medical school where are you licensed to practice? What's that? Nowhere?

Yea you can't practice squat after graduation from medical school. RESIDENCY is where you are tought the skills of "being a doctor".

In light of this there is very little that evil tobacco can do to corrupt future physicians. Besides we're all taught to be self learners and critical thinkers (right). If that's the case how much effect do you think tobacco could have?

Move on people this is a nonissue.

Finally some reason.

 

[Didierdrogba]

In light of this there is very little that evil tobacco can do to corrupt future physicians. Besides we're all taught to be self learners and critical thinkers (right). If that's the case how much effect do you think tobacco could have?

Money talks.... my friend

And also this is about how our profession will be viewed as a whole, and where it is headed... I do not want to have my diploma be seen as a joke, thank you very much

 

[Telekinesis]

Money talks.... my friend

And also this is about how our profession will be viewed as a whole, and where it is headed... I do not want to have my diploma be seen as a joke, thank you very much

By whom? Who will view it as a joke. Patients couldn't care less.

 

[NOsaintsfan]

Money talks.... my friend

And also this is about how our profession will be viewed as a whole, and where it is headed... I do not want to have my diploma be seen as a joke, thank you very much

Patients and future colleagues (ie. other doctors) will judge you based on ........YOU.

True to some residency directors MD > DO but once your done with residency MD = DO by everyone that matters.

That's just the way it is. If this hurts your feelings or upsets you I'm sorry, but the reality is the only people that care or will look negatively at your DO degree is pre-meds.

Unless you plan to practice at an Ivory tower academic hospital when your done with residency no one cares where you went to school, or where you did residency for that matter. They care about you and how competent you are and your board certification. That's it.

 

[GUH]

Patients and future colleagues (ie. other doctors) will judge you based on ........YOU.

True to some residency directors MD > DO but once your done with residency MD = DO by everyone that matters.

That's just the way it is. If this hurts your feelings or upsets you I'm sorry, but the reality is the only people that care or will look negatively at your DO degree is pre-meds.

Unless you plan to practice at an Ivory tower academic hospital when your done with residency no one cares where you went to school, or where you did residency for that matter. They care about you and how competent you are and your board certification. That's it.

What about fellowships?

 

[Telekinesis]

What about fellowships?

Only place that matters from my anecdotal knowledge is where you did your residency