Lied to a physician

[Lucca]

Your posts are always like a breath of fresh air.

You must take your morning strolls through industrial sewage plants.

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[efle]

You must take your morning strolls through industrial sewage plants.

I dunno, I think Tired is ****ing hysterical

All I can tell you is that our weakest students have a very poor work ethic. those who fail boards tend to get called out by their preceptors as having poor work ethics in the clinic.

Good time mgt can be just as important as having a good work ethic.

Good coping skills too.

You can't pin success down to a single attribute. But i'll submit that lazy will get you no where.

Oh I can agree a poor work ethic dooms you. But you carefully never acknowledge that for some people at some places, even a perfect work ethic can't make them a 4.0. It's really no different than getting a stellar MCAT. Effort is necessary, but not sufficient.

 

[Gandyy]

I give up safari has got to be the worst browser after Internet explorer

 

[NontradCA]

Damn...there have been a lot of threads about lying/cheating on this forum lately...makes my skin itch when I think about the possibility of some of you being my future classmates....

Better get some Calamine for when school starts then....

 

[NeuResurgens]

I dunno, I think Tired is ****ing hysterical

I agree. It's an acquired taste but once you accept him for who he is, everything he posts is a riot.

 

[Lucca]

I dunno, I think Tired is ****ing hysterical


.

So do I, but I wouldn't compare him to fresh air ya know lol

 

[mehc012]

I agree. It's an acquired taste but once you accept him for who he is, everything he posts is a riot.

I've never been one for acquired tastes. People told me that about coffee and alcohol, and I thought "why would I put up with the miserable part for dubious benefit of spending extra money on casually sipping this crap later?" So I don't drink coffee (I can take caffeine pills for the same kick without the misery) and I rarely drink booze unless I'm trying to actually become intoxicated. And on SDN, I still don't find it worth the effort and initial misery...that's what the 'Ignore' button is for!

 

[FFH]

In my abnormal behavior final, it was normal behavior for the students to just go out of the exam room, out of the building, have a smoke, or go to another building, sometimes a library. I don't know what they need to do in a library which happen to contain a lot of computers during an exam. Maybe the bathroom there was nicer. The teacher didn't care.

 

[The Cheat]

At my school, it was common to spot look a likes taking exams for others.

 

[The Real SVB]

I give up safari has got to be the worst browser after Internet explorer

As a diehard Safari user, I'll have to disagree...it's much sleeker than Chrome, though admittedly its extensions library isn't as extensive.

 

[deleted480308]

I'll go back to paraphrasing @Goro , "dishonest students have a habit of becoming dishonest doctors"

 

[Goro]

Not everybody can be perfect; everybody has their own peak level of performance. I remember a dad once saying to his son after they lost a game "well, you just weren't good enough". Which is 100% true. Not everyone can get into Stanford or Harvard.


Oh I can agree a poor work ethic dooms you. But you carefully never acknowledge that for some people at some places, even a perfect work ethic can't make them a 4.0. It's really no different than getting a stellar MCAT. Effort is necessary, but not sufficient.

 

[Gandyy]

Not everybody can be perfect; everybody has their own peak level of performance. I remember a dad once saying to his son after they lost a game "well, you just weren't good enough". Which is 100% true. Not everyone can get into Stanford or Harvard.


Oh I can agree a poor work ethic dooms you. But you carefully never acknowledge that for some people at some places, even a perfect work ethic can't make them a 4.0. It's really no different than getting a stellar MCAT. Effort is necessary, but not sufficient.

A depressing truth indeed.

 

[NeuResurgens]

I've never been one for acquired tastes. People told me that about coffee and alcohol, and I thought "why would I put up with the miserable part for dubious benefit of spending extra money on casually sipping this crap later?" So I don't drink coffee (I can take caffeine pills for the same kick without the misery) and I rarely drink booze unless I'm trying to actually become intoxicated. And on SDN, I still don't find it worth the effort and initial misery...that's what the 'Ignore' button is for!

Yeah I tried beer once, never understood the appeal. I'm not a fan of the taste, haha. But I do enjoy cynical humor, so I guess that's why Tired hasn't rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[deleted480308]

Yeah I tried beer once, never understood the appeal. I'm not a fan of the taste, haha. But I do enjoy cynical humor, so I guess that's why Tired hasn't rubbed me the wrong way.

samuel smith organic chocolate stout......for real

 

[efle]

Not everybody can be perfect; everybody has their own peak level of performance. I remember a dad once saying to his son after they lost a game "well, you just weren't good enough". Which is 100% true. Not everyone can get into Stanford or Harvard.


Oh I can agree a poor work ethic dooms you. But you carefully never acknowledge that for some people at some places, even a perfect work ethic can't make them a 4.0. It's really no different than getting a stellar MCAT. Effort is necessary, but not sufficient.

Why then do you say things such as MIT or Kutztown, an A is an A, when you realize these grades are based on very different populations? And why always say that that B could have been an A with more effort? Sometimes even if you get in, you just can't beat out the others on Team MIT for a starting position no matter how hard you try.

 

[moisne]

OP didn't say "hey will you write me a letter of rec? Bc I'm so awesome with my 33"

It was probably just a conversation in daily life. It wasn't intended to have that information used somewhere.

If that's a serious lie - I lie all the time. OP shouldn't use the letter for all the reasons everyone has already stated but it's not a big deal... It was in a casual conversation... How many of you never lied to questions such as:

"How old are you?"
"Favorite movie"
"Hey what did you get on your last exam" (from a gunner pre med or something)
"What did you do this weekends?"
"How's your day?"

 

[efle]

OP didn't say "hey will you write me a letter of rec? Bc I'm so awesome with my 33"

It was probably just a conversation in daily life. It wasn't intended to have that information used somewhere.

If that's a serious lie - I lie all the time. OP shouldn't use the letter for all the reasons everyone has already stated but it's not a big deal... It was in a casual conversation... How many of you never lied to questions such as:

"How old are you?"
"Favorite movie"
"Hey what did you get on your last exam" (from a gunner pre med or something)
"What did you do this weekends?"
"How's your day?"

Dude, if you frequently lie in small talk about your age, tastes, activities, and academics, you should talk to someone about it. Most people don't find that normal. And talking to someone who may influence the competitiveness of your app about your entrance exam scores is a considerably worse time to fib than most casual conversation

 

[moisne]

Dude, if you frequently lie in small talk about your age, tastes, activities, and academics, you should talk to someone about it. Most people don't find that normal. And talking to someone who may influence the competitiveness of your app about your entrance exam scores is a considerably worse time to fib than most casual conversation

"How's ur day"
"Good"

(Bc no one wants to hear you talk about your crappy day"

"What did you get on the test"
"85"
(Too high - they try to Sabotage you, too low... Would still be a lie)

"How old are you"
"24"
"What's your name?"
"Linda" (or whatever I feel like)
(Bc I don't really want someone at a bar to find me on facebook)

OP talking to his own doc - if I were him - I wouldn't take an acceptance letter regardless... I don't consider my convo with a personal doc or friend a factor of an influence on my application (which ... Doesn't even matter)

 

[gyngyn]

It was probably just a conversation in daily life. It wasn't intended to have that information used somewhere.

He lied to a benefactor regarding facts relevant to his professional integrity.
There is nothing casual about it.

 

[Goro]

It's very simple, people who get A's are rare.

People who get straight As, even rarer. So, no matter where one is, it's laudatory, and the type of student that's sought after.

Nolan Ryan was a career .500 pitcher. That's no great shakes, but he played baseball for > 20 years and is in the hall of fame because he could throw strikes. Was he better than, say, Tim Lincecum or Mariano Rivera? Not based upon his W-L record!

Why then do you say things such as MIT or Kutztown, an A is an A, when you realize these grades are based on very different populations? And why always say that that B could have been an A with more effort? Sometimes even if you get in, you just can't beat out the others on Team MIT for a starting position no matter how hard you try.

 

[efle]

"How's ur day"
"Good"

(Bc no one wants to hear you talk about your crappy day"

"What did you get on the test"
"85"
(Too high - they try to Sabotage you, too low... Would still be a lie)

"How old are you"
"24"
"What's your name?"
"Linda" (or whatever I feel like)
(Bc I don't really want someone at a bar to find me on facebook)

OP talking to his own doc - if I were him - I wouldn't take an acceptance letter regardless... I don't consider my convo with a personal doc or friend a factor of an influence on my application (which ... Doesn't even matter)

You should respect a doctor who has opened their practice to you more than creeps at bars or gunners you think would sabotage you. But to each their own

 

[efle]

It's very simple, people who get A's are rare.

People who get straight As, even rarer. So, no matter where one is, it's laudatory, and the type of student that's sought after.

Nolan Ryan was a career .500 pitcher. That's no great shakes, but he played baseball for > 20 years and is in the hall of fame because he could throw strikes. Was he better than, say, Tim Lincecum or Mariano Rivera? Not based upon his W-L record!

And batting near perfect may always be a rarity, but that doesn't make it reasonable to compare high averages between MLB and collegiate club as if they're demonstrating the same degree of ability.

Though sure, granted there may be some people highly talented at whatever specialty they end up in, and lacking elsewhere that prevented them from being a top student back in the day.

 

[The Cheat]

And batting near perfect may always be a rarity, but that doesn't make it reasonable to compare high averages between MLB and collegiate club as if they're demonstrating the same degree of ability.

Though sure, granted there may be some people highly talented at whatever specialty they end up in, and lacking elsewhere that prevented them from being a top student back in the day.

What difference is there between a slate of HYPSM pre-med courses and those at any other school? If two applicants, one from MIT and another from say Illinois State had the same GPA and MCAT, I'd imagine it would be hard for an admissions committee to say which applicant is more academically prepared for med school.

 

[mehc012]

"How's ur day"
"Good"

(Bc no one wants to hear you talk about your crappy day"

I answer truthfully, but vaguely. If they don't wanna know more, they won't ask. My most common response to this question is actually 'meh'.

"What did you get on the test"
"85"
(Too high - they try to Sabotage you, too low... Would still be a lie)

I'm not sure anyone has asked me this since high school (other than the MCAT...premeds go crazy asking about the MCAT). And again, I see no reason not to simply be honest. If they can't respond in a mature manner to a question they asked me, that's something I'd like to know about them and will affect our future interactions.

"How old are you"
"24"

Again, not a common question...and again, why would I lie?

"What's your name?"
"Linda" (or whatever I feel like)
(Bc I don't really want someone at a bar to find me on facebook)

This may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You actually make up fake names to give to people? There's this great feature on Facebook where you can...not accept friend requests if you don't want to. It's like the whole phone number thing: you can just say 'no' when someone asks. No need to give them a fake unless you actually fear a violent reaction...and I strongly recommend not asking for LORs from people who you have lied to in order to avoid a violent reaction!



Seriously, why go through the effort of lying on such simple, meaningless questions? If you don't want to socialize, don't go out. If you do, why be so weird about talking to people?

And in a professional context, there's no reason to be lying at all. It's perfectly legitimate to keep some things private, but making up a response is inappropriate. If you don't want to answer, it's perfectly socially acceptable to hedge: "oh, I got the score I wanted," or "I didn't score as well as I was hoping, but I think I did well enough to get in" or even just "fine." The funny thing is, odds are most docs couldn't tell you whether a 30 or a 33 was a particularly good score anyway...all of mine have seemed incredibly out of touch on the matter, and they're not particularly old!

 

[efle]

What difference is there between a slate of HYPSM pre-med courses and those at any other school? If two applicants, one from MIT and another from say Illinois State had the same GPA and MCAT, I'd imagine it would be hard for an admissions committee to say which applicant is more academically prepared for med school.

If you believe the MCAT is a good grounds for comparison, then it appears the similar GPAs are not really so similar, and the MIT student would likely have about a +0.6 had they been at a nationally average uni.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/posts/16302355/

This difference is in my eyes clearly acknowledged by private med schools in the AAMC survey, where they rated selectivity of undergrad as highest importance along with MCAT + GPA. Goro disagrees, which makes sense as he is not at a private MD school.

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf#page=12

 

[Goro]

True! And that's why they'll all be accepted. It's not a zero sum game.

What difference is there between a slate of HYPSM pre-med courses and those at any other school? If two applicants, one from MIT and another from say Illinois State had the same GPA and MCAT, I'd imagine it would be hard for an admissions committee to say which applicant is more academically prepared for med school.

 

[The Cheat]

So whats the difference between a pre-med slate at HYPSM and one at some other school?

 

[Lawpy]

What difference is there between a slate of HYPSM pre-med courses and those at any other school? If two applicants, one from MIT and another from say Illinois State had the same GPA and MCAT, I'd imagine it would be hard for an admissions committee to say which applicant is more academically prepared for med school.

True! And that's why they'll all be accepted. It's not a zero sum game.

That'll be a great decision from optimistic medical schools. But typically, the MIT applicant will beat the Illinois State applicant despite identical MCAT scores, because it is simply harder to achieve a higher GPA at a more competitive/selective/grade-deflating university. The schools that receive too many excellent offers have sadly no choice but to stick with this selection method.

 

[efle]

So whats the difference between a pre-med slate at HYPSM and one at some other school?

The difference is not in content, but in difficulty via the abilities of the peer group your grade is set against

 

[efle]

That'll be a great decision from optimistic medical schools. But typically, the MIT applicant will beat the Illinois State applicant despite identical MCAT scores, because it is simply harder to achieve a higher GPA at a more competitive/selective/grade-deflating university.

In the same survey I quoted before, the public med schools state they don't care about alma maters. People born in California are screwed for sure, but for people realistically aiming for state medical, going to state undergrad is no disadvantage.

 

[The Cheat]

@Lawper My only question is how to tell if the MIT courses one applicant took were actually harder than the ones at ISU. Reputation is subjective and the Illinois State applicant could have cut it at MIT for all someone knows.

 

[The Cheat]

The difference is not in content, but in difficulty via the abilities of the peer group your grade is set against

Eh, isn't that dependent on how much the prof wants to curve the class?

 

[Lawpy]

In the same survey I quoted before, the public med schools state they don't care about alma maters. People born in California are screwed for sure, but for people realistically aiming for state medical, going to state undergrad is no disadvantage.

That's always a great news and it is always ideal, simply because the applicants who choose their undergrad do so for various reasons. Yet it's a tragic reality that some medical schools (especially the Top 10 or so) are so hyped to see stellar applicants from stellar schools that they close the curtain on rest of the awesome applicants from okay colleges.

@Lawper My only question is how to tell if the MIT courses one applicant took were actually harder than the ones at ISU. Reputation is subjective and the Illinois State applicant could have cut it at MIT for all someone knows.

Yes I agree reputation is subjective and I personally oppose university-based selections, because hey, people don't care about what college they go to as long as they do well. Yet does this happen? Sadly yes. Because schools like MIT, Princeton, UChicago etc. have established a national reputation for its academic rigors, intense competition, and grade deflation. Adcoms know this and when they see an MIT applicant with strong stats and strong ECs, they will invite and accept them without a second thought.

 

[The Real SVB]

Reputation is subjective

This topic has been beaten to death. Yes, it is subjective, yes no one would really know the difficulty, yes people from state schools can shoot for the sky and reach it too. But on average, the stereotypes and assumptions made are true. Even if they aren't...well, too bad. Nothing you can do about it.

 

[The Cheat]

@Lawper I'm of the impression that adcoms would want to admit any applicants with strong ECs, stats, and hopefully a compelling story. Accepting students based on University reputation is a bit...... amateurish.

 

[The Real SVB]

Accepting students based on University reputation

It's not blind accepting, you get that right? On average these students apply with better full packages (grades, ECs, LORs, pubs) than the average state schooler. As @Goro mentioned, there's no "direct" competition between the high-achieving Ivy Leaguer and the high-achieving state schooler; both will get in. But at the margin, the top school kid gets the edge.

Get over it, move on, focus on your own app/schooling. I see you're new here. Arguing about it with strangers online does literally nothing. Waste of time

 

[Lawpy]

@Lawper I'm of the impression that adcoms would want to admit any applicants with strong ECs, stats, and hopefully a compelling story. Accepting students based on University reputation is a bit...... amateurish.

It's not blind accepting, you get that right? On average these students apply with better full packages (grades, ECs, LORs, pubs) than the average state schooler. Get over it, move on, focus on your own app/schooling.

The Cheat has a point. The admission process isn't fair (or even consistent). But alas, we're on the complete mercy of the adcoms so we can only hope for the best.

 

[The Cheat]

Just re-read Goro's last post and just realized that thinking about med school admissions as just a zero-sum game is not a good way to go about it. Now I wonder if the # of admitted applicants fluctuates from year to year at certain med schools and not because of the # of seats but the quality of applicants?

 

[efle]

@Lawper My only question is how to tell if the MIT courses one applicant took were actually harder than the ones at ISU. Reputation is subjective and the Illinois State applicant could have cut it at MIT for all someone knows.

Eh, isn't that dependent on how much the prof wants to curve the class?

This is how you know. Yes, for specific instances of this class vs that class it isn't going to hold all the time. But clearly at the population level there is a huge difference between the difficulty faced by students at a Top 20 vs national mean. For Christ's sake 97th+ percentile MCAT scores are more common than 3.8+ GPA! On the national average the relationship is more than reversed, with it 3x as common to see 3.8+ than 36+. A GPA's value hugely depends on where it was earned.

And seriously, it's just common sense. Being average at a place full of valedictorians and national merit scholars etc takes a lot more than the equivalent performance at a random unknown university. This has been my experience and the experience reported by everyone I know that's done coursework at both types of school. Finally, it's reflected by admissions policies at the private med schools. They do it for a reason, and it isn't for their prestige bonors. It's because the applicants who killed it at MIT are a much more promising bet for who will kill it in med school.

The Cheat has a point. The admission process isn't fair (or even consistent). But alas, we're on the complete mercy of the adcoms so we can only hope for the best.

If this system is unfair to anyone, it's the people who work hard but get weeded out for being average at schools like MIT. They often could've gone to State for free and had an outstanding GPA instead of one which made the premed track too risky. Performance among much tougher competition should rightly be viewed differently. In fact to compensate for the magnitude of disparity seen in the numbers, anything less than "highest importance" would be unfair.

 

[Lawpy]

If this system is unfair to anyone, it's the people who work hard but get weeded out for being average at schools like MIT. They often could've gone to State for free and had an outstanding GPA instead of one which made the premed track too risky. Performance among much tougher competition should rightly be viewed differently. In fact to compensate for the magnitude of disparity seen in the numbers, anything less than "highest importance" would be unfair.

For any grade-deflating school, yes I agree. For any prestigious school? No.

 

[efle]

Just re-read Goro's last post and just realized that thinking about med school admissions as just a zero-sum game is not a good way to go about it. Now I wonder if the # of admitted applicants fluctuates from year to year at certain med schools and not because of the # of seats but the quality of applicants?

There is tiny fluctuation due to inability to perfectly guess the % of acceptees that choose to matriculate. Overall the trend is a constant downwards % admitted

 

[efle]

For any grade-deflating schools, yes I agree. For any prestigious school? No.

Do any prestigious schools inflate beyond the ~+.7 that falls out of the numbers as a fair adjustment? Worst I've heard of is Harvard's A-/3.7 median, and I think they're quite justified in inflating to that point, as it'd be equivalent to an average university with a 3.0 average, and that's pretty typical. Just sucks to be somewhere like Chicago, MIT or Hopkins that is both insanely tough and keeps to the low 3's

 

[The Cheat]

There is tiny fluctuation due to inability to perfectly guess the % of acceptees that choose to matriculate. Overall the trend is a constant downwards % admitted

I realize that % goes down but how about the absolute #?

 

[efle]

I realize that % goes down but how about the absolute #?

The % goes down because the absolute # of apps goes up. Class size changes negligibly

 

[The Cheat]

And seriously, it's just common sense. Being average at a place full of valedictorians and national merit scholars etc takes a lot more than the equivalent performance at a random unknown university. .

Isn't it possible that say more talented and motivated kids at prestigious places could just need less time to get ready for classes than kids at state schools?

 

[The Cheat]

The % goes down because the absolute # of apps goes up. Class size changes negligibly

I meant absolute # of applicants that get accepted.

 

[samac]

What kind of schools do you people go to where you can just walk out of the room?
I had one professor with a cell phone policy. You couldn't leave to go to the restroom without handing in your cell phone. Didn't have one? Too bad.
Another professor where you turn in the exam and that's it. You're done. You don't get to come back and finish.
One professor where he just fails you.
Of course if there were dire circumstances they'd accommodate. But you're an adult and can pee before you go take a 1 hr exam. Bet you didn't get up and go in the middle of MCAT sections.

 

[gyngyn]

I meant absolute # of applicants that get accepted.

The number of acceptances is derived by an algorithm.
The number of matriculants is proposed by the school and approved by the LCME.

 

[The Cheat]

The number of acceptances is derived by an algorithm.
The number of matriculants is proposed by the school and approved by the LCME.

Thanks for the info! The math geek in me would like to know what factors the algorithm considers, but I can see how that info would be proprietary.