Lifestyle of a neurosurgeon (academic & private)

[adigiorgio]

These are from sfgate.com. All UC employees' salaries are public knowledge since they are technically state employees.

Mitchel S Berger: $552,042
Christopher P Ames: $660,116
Dean Chou: $353,754
Praveen Mummaneni: $394,838
Michael T Lawton: $656,152

Just clarifying the facts.

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[UditNarayan]

This is a ridiculously good thread. Thanks a lot for the experiences, anecdotes, and contrasting opinions. Good stuff surgeonizer, and adigiorgio - thanks for the website, ive been playing around with it a bit and there's some good info there (cant believe how much the sports/athletic directors get)

 

[latinfridley]

I'm a little suspicious of anyone who has time to post on SDN claiming to be as busy as these guys say they are...

Sorry, but he's right. Neurosurgery is arguably the worst field to go into if you want to have much of a life outside of the hospital. After completing several months of neurosurgery rotation to date and interacting with residents at several different programs I can assure you that this is the truth. If you are interested in the CNS but want a life, look into neurology or neuroradiology.

 

[Surgeonizer]

Sorry, but he's right. Neurosurgery is arguably the worst field to go into if you want to have much of a life outside of the hospital. After completing several months of neurosurgery rotation to date and interacting with residents at several different programs I can assure you that this is the truth. If you are interested in the CNS but want a life, look into neurology or neuroradiology.

I assume that one of the institutions you rotated through was Baylor, which is notorious for working its residents into the ground (mostly secondary to the trauma heavy/nonexistent ancillary staff at Ben Taub and the extraordinary pediatric volume at Texas Childrens). Once again, I wouldn't conclude that neurosurgery is absolutely incompatible with a life outside medicine based on your observation of Baylor.

If you're worried about maintaining some degree of balance in your life, but you definitely want to become a neurosurgeon, I would encourage you to rotate through or at least interview at the following institutions (you'll see a very different side of neurosurgery): the Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, University of Cincinnati, Vanderbilt, University of Michigan, Cornell University, and the Barrow Neurological Institute.

P.S. Neurology SUCKS! I would shoot myself if I had to do neurology. A lot of mental masturbation and very little execution to help their patients. Radiology is pretty sweet but neurosurgery will have control of neurointerventional radiology in 10-15 years.

Just my $0.02

 

[blz]

I've heard that that the ENT fellowship Neurotology-Skull base surgery is supposed to be like "neurosurgery with a lifestyle."

 

[-Goose-]

They don't call it "neuroslavery" for nothing.

 

[latinfridley]

I assume that one of the institutions you rotated through was Baylor, which is notorious for working its residents into the ground (mostly secondary to the trauma heavy/nonexistent ancillary staff at Ben Taub and the extraordinary pediatric volume at Texas Childrens). Once again, I wouldn't conclude that neurosurgery is absolutely incompatible with a life outside medicine based on your observation of Baylor.

If you're worried about maintaining some degree of balance in your life, but you definitely want to become a neurosurgeon, I would encourage you to rotate through or at least interview at the following institutions (you'll see a very different side of neurosurgery): the Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, University of Cincinnati, Vanderbilt, University of Michigan, Cornell University, and the Barrow Neurological Institute.

P.S. Neurology SUCKS! I would shoot myself if I had to do neurology. A lot of mental masturbation and very little execution to help their patients. Radiology is pretty sweet but neurosurgery will have control of neurointerventional radiology in 10-15 years.

Just my $0.02

Im not the original poster, but I'll say that despite its apparent reputation, BCM does not run its residents into the ground. Second, I havent rotated at the above institutions (although I am going to BNI and have rotated at one that wasn't mentioned), but I will say that after speaking to fellow students and residents who have rotated at the above places, that while they are considered gentleman's programs, they are not synonymous with "cush". The most cush programs are going to be at the smaller private practice programs, such as Methodist (Houston), Dartmouth, Yale, etc...

 

[Surgeonizer]

Im not the original poster, but I'll say that despite its apparent reputation, BCM does not run its residents into the ground. Second, I havent rotated at the above institutions (although I am going to BNI and have rotated at one that wasn't mentioned), but I will say that after speaking to fellow students and residents who have rotated at the above places, that while they are considered gentleman's programs, they are not synonymous with "cush". The most cush programs are going to be at the smaller private practice programs, such as Methodist (Houston), Dartmouth, Yale, etc...

Yale and Methodist are definitely cush programs--I had forgotten about those places. I don't know much about Dartmouth. I'm not sure about the overall quality and scope of training at Yale and Methodist, however. I know that epilepsy is strong at Yale, not sure about other areas.

Obviously cush is a relative term. No surgical residency program (even plastics and ENT) offers the same lifestyle as the "ROAD" specialties. Surgery residents work extremely hard. Period. Another thing to keep in mind is that JUNIOR residency (i.e., years 1-3) is horrible at the vast majority of programs. Nobody enjoys being a junior resident.

Even so, there are pockets of excellent programs out there that offer a reasonable balance between personal life and professional demands without compromising the quality and scope of your training. I think the programs that I mentioned fit the bill.

Example: Michigan. call is q7 as a junior and q30 (ish) for the research years. Residents get 2 full weekends off per month along with 4 weeks of vacation per year. There is no prerounding even for junior residents--rounds start at 6 AM. All subspecialties in neurosurgery are covered by a senior and junior faculty member with fellowship training in the area. We do everything here. Average work week: 70-74 hours.

Despite this schedule, the R2s at Michigan logged 350 cases in the ORs last year.

Michigan may not be "cush" vis-a-vis the ROAD specialties, but it's fantastic by neurosurgery standards. Mayo, Hopkins, and BNI are very similar in this respect as well.

 

[beaverfetus]

i really don't see what the hype about the lifestyle of a private neurosurgeon is.

road to happiness in neurosurgery:

1. residency (will suck, but in a life changing exciting way)
2. get recruited by large-ish spine practice
3. hire a decent PA
4. 2-3 days of clinic listening to people biatch about their backs, 2-3 days of microdiscectomies, cervical discs, laminectomies, x-stop, fusions etc.
5. rinse and repeat
6. 350k+ a year, done and banked
7. take some time off for law suits/ vacation


am I missing where that starts sucking?

 

[-Goose-]

am I missing where that starts sucking?

Call.

 

[beaverfetus]

Call.

the guy i shadowed worked primarily out of small private hospitals that don't have real trauma and don't even do crani's

many of his patients were quite healthy aside from the back pain...

i call shenanigans

 

[taXi]

the guy i shadowed

n=1

Persuing a career in neurosurgery with the expectation of a good lifestyle is on average a recipe for disappointment.

 

[-Goose-]

n=1

Persuing a career in neurosurgery with the expectation of a good lifestyle is on average a recipe for disappointment.

True. Neurosurgery and lifestyle typically do not belong together in the same sentence (unless separated by a word such as "terrible" or "busy").

Yes, it can happen. But it rarely does. If you are not 100% up for the 7 year residency and busy lifestyle thereafter do yourself a favor and don't sign up for it. The meek need not apply. On the other hand, if you find yourself unable to enjoy any other field, then NS is probably right for you. Good luck and keep an open mind.

 

[beaverfetus]

True. Neurosurgery and lifestyle typically do not belong together in the same sentence (unless separated by a word such as "terrible" or "busy").

Yes, it can happen. But it rarely does. If you are not 100% up for the 7 year residency and busy lifestyle thereafter do yourself a favor and don't sign up for it. The meek need not apply. On the other hand, if you find yourself unable to enjoy any other field, then NS is probably right for you. Good luck and keep an open mind.

And I'm saying, residency aside, the perception that most neurosurgeons have terrible lifestyles is total garbage. While my anecdote may be n=1. I think the information in this thread is equally skewed by what people observe in academic neurosurgery, while on rotation.

A typical academic neurosurgeon may be doing hundreds of crani's a year, caring for the sickest of the sick or god forbid super specializing in cerebral vasc. Most of those guys also have lab obligations and grant writing that brings them in during the weekend.

now contrast that to a private guy who does mostly simple spine. There is no comparison in work load. The spine procedures are the growth industry. People are aging and want the magic operation to make the onerous consequence of bipedal movement corrected in a 45 minute decompression. Just look at job listings for neuros "laser spine institute wants you" "minimally invasive spine practice looking for one more!".

In the long and short run, there are going to be even greater numbers of neuros with cush spine practices. Even though most neuros out there in private practice already live off the stuff. The whole posturing b.s. about the lifestyle of a neuro just doesn't seem to add up.

A cardiothoracic surgeon, every time they operate is virtually guaranteed to be operating on an extremely sick patient. Their lifestyle suffers for it. Thats just not the case with private practice neurosurgeons who can build quiet profitable low key spine cases. Of course it will take time to build up a patient base and reputation to make it happen, but hey, everything in medicine takes some work.

and please, if you are planning a reply, avoid making any assumptions about my interest in neurosurgery. If you have a real point, I want to hear it and you can make it without grandstanding about people who go into neurosurgery expecting xy & z.

 

[-Goose-]

And I'm saying, residency aside, the perception that most neurosurgeons have terrible lifestyles is total garbage. While my anecdote may be n=1. I think the information in this thread is equally skewed by what people observe in academic neurosurgery, while on rotation.

A typical academic neurosurgeon may be doing hundreds of crani's a year, caring for the sickest of the sick or god forbid super specializing in cerebral vasc. Most of those guys also have lab obligations and grant writing that brings them in during the weekend.

now contrast that to a private guy who does mostly simple spine. There is no comparison in work load. The spine procedures are the growth industry. People are aging and want the magic operation to make the onerous consequence of bipedal movement corrected in a 45 minute decompression. Just look at job listings for neuros "laser spine institute wants you" "minimally invasive spine practice looking for one more!".

In the long and short run, there are going to be even greater numbers of neuros with cush spine practices. Even though most neuros out there in private practice already live off the stuff. The whole posturing b.s. about the lifestyle of a neuro just doesn't seem to add up.

A cardiothoracic surgeon, every time they operate is virtually guaranteed to be operating on an extremely sick patient. Their lifestyle suffers for it. Thats just not the case with private practice neurosurgeons who can build quiet profitable low key spine cases. Of course it will take time to build up a patient base and reputation to make it happen, but hey, everything in medicine takes some work.

and please, if you are planning a reply, avoid making any assumptions about my interest in neurosurgery. If you have a real point, I want to hear it and you can make it without grandstanding about people who go into neurosurgery expecting xy & z.

Don't be so butt-hurt. We're just trying to tell you that your n=1 is not enough to go around making the conclusions that you are.

All that's fine (although a bit naive, from my perspective), but if you're only interested in neurosurgery for the cush private practice spine work, do yourself a huge favor and go ortho-->spine fellowship. They make just as much, do the same bread and butter cases, and the residency is shorter, less competitive (there are like 4-5 x as many spots / year), and less grueling. My PD, a nationally respected pediatric neurosurgeon, tells all students that meet with him that if he had known in medical school that spine was his passion, that he would have saved himself 5-10 years shaved off his life expectancy and done an orthopaedic residency.

You need to love the CNS, in my opinion, to get through a NS residency. If you're after $ and a relatively cush lifestyle, that's fine, at least you're honest with yourself (which is better than most people can say), but definitely check out ortho + spine fellowship.

 

[beaverfetus]

All that's fine (although a bit naive, from my perspective), but if you're only interested in neurosurgery for the cush private practice spine work, do yourself a huge favor and go ortho-->spine fellowship. They make just as much, do the same bread and butter cases, and the residency is shorter, less competitive (there are like 4-5 x as many spots / year), and less grueling. My PD, a nationally respected pediatric neurosurgeon, tells all students that meet with him that if he had known in medical school that spine was his passion, that he would have saved himself 5-10 years shaved off his life expectancy and done an orthopaedic residency.

you went and answered with exactly the assumption I was asking you to avoid, and added little else

but thanks anyway

 

[-Goose-]

you went and answered with exactly the assumption I was asking you to avoid, and added little else

but thanks anyway

It's hard not to make assumptions when you ask the questions that you do. I'm honestly trying to help you out (and tell you what most neurosurgeons I've encountered have told me).

Sorry that it's not what you wanted to hear, but going around with your fingers in your ears is no way to make a decision like this. Seek out advice from more than your n=1 private practice NS. And definitely considered the ortho route if you know your passion is below the atlanto-occipital joint.

Good luck.

 

[beaverfetus]

It's hard not to make assumptions when you ask the questions that you do.

false, it is hard to not make assumptions because you have nothing to add.

you don't know much about private practice neurosurgery so you divert to the conversation to saying that the love of CNS is necessary to get through residency, which has nothing to do with my original conjecture.

I said it is reasonable to believe that many private practice neurosurgeons have nice lifestyles

do I want a cush lifestyle? I didn't say
do I love the CNS? didnt say
am I planning to match neurosurgery to take the easy road? didnt say

is it possible to talk about neurosurgery without unsolicited career advice? My intent is not to show you up or be harsh. I honestly would like a cogent conversation about the lifestyle of a private practice neurosurgeon. I realize this will be tough with my peers because medical students see academic medicine. Residents/ attendings probably have a more accurate view, because they at least know people who have taken the private road.

 

[-Goose-]

false, it is hard to not make assumptions because you have nothing to add.

Come on man.

you don't know much about private practice neurosurgery so you divert to the conversation to saying that the love of CNS is necessary to get through residency, which has nothing to do with my original conjecture.

I said it is reasonable to believe that many private practice neurosurgeons have nice lifestyles

do I want a cush lifestyle? I didn't say
do I love the CNS? didnt say
am I planning to match neurosurgery to take the easy road? didnt say

is it possible to talk about neurosurgery without unsolicited career advice? My intent is not to show you up or be harsh. I honestly would like a cogent conversation about the lifestyle of a private practice neurosurgeon. I realize this will be tough with my peers because medical students see academic medicine. Residents/ attendings probably have a more accurate view, because they at least know people who have taken the private road.

Simmer down, Beaverfetus. I'm not posting only for you. People interested in this field, in my opinion, need to know and think about this stuff. It's not a decision to be taken lightly.

Sure, you didn't say you wanted those 3 things, but you did ask about lifestyle & private practice neurosurgery. Don't get mad when people offer advice about the issue you're exploring.

Talk about whatever you want. Post your experience with your one pp neurosurgeon. I also know a very successful pp neurosurgeon. A good family friend who is the principal partner of the largest group in my home city. He lives a decent lifestyle, for a neurosurgeon. But a radiologist, for example, would balk at his hours (>65 per week with q4-5 call). It's all relative.

And it is safe to assume 1 of 2 things if you're asking questions about pp neurosurgery: 1) your passion is in spine or 2) you don't quit grasp what the day to day pp ns is like (i.e. predominantly spine). I was only offering advice assuming you were in fact interested in the area were asking about.

 

[beaverfetus]

Come on man.



Simmer down, Beaverfetus. I'm not posting only for you. People interested in this field, in my opinion, need to know and think about this stuff. It's not a decision to be taken lightly.

This forum, and thread is inundated with people saying exactly what you are. I am asking for something different, a level headed description of private practice neurosurgery. The view of all neurosurgery lifestyle as crap is held sacrosanct to an extent which is just not present in comparable fields in surgery, where physicians are likely working just as hard.

thats why your responses are making me crabby. Just read through this thread and youll see the dichotomy between doomsayers and people who take a more grounded view. I would like to hear from the ladder, and preferably without people making wild assumptions.

 

[-Goose-]

This forum, and thread is inundated with people saying exactly what you are. I am asking for something different, a level headed description of private practice neurosurgery. The view of all neurosurgery lifestyle as crap is held sacrosanct to an extent which is just not present in comparable fields in surgery, where physicians are likely working just as hard.

thats why your responses are making me crabby. Just read through this thread and youll see the dichotomy between doomsayers and people who take a more grounded view. I would like to hear from the ladder, and preferably without people making wild assumptions.

Ok. We're all crazy. You're the sane one. I'm through with this.

 

[beaverfetus]

Ok. We're all crazy. You're the sane one. I'm through with this.

I asked you to move on a few posts ago, when all productive discourse stopped.

and yes, I will be hearing from ladder in all his rung-y glory.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Just look at job listings for neuros "laser spine institute wants you" "minimally invasive spine practice looking for one more!".

Most, if not all, neurosurgery practices are going to require some sort of general neurosurgery/trauma call.

Either "cush" jobs are only available once you make partner and have underlings take call for you, or your definition of cush means you make a lot less money in exchange for not pulling your weight. I don't know how you can get around this.

Maybe there are a few boutique spine-only practices, but in most cases ortho-spine handles ortho trauma and neuro-spine handles neuro trauma. And, if such practices exist, they are definitely not advertising open positions.

 

[beaverfetus]

Most, if not all, neurosurgery practices are going to require some sort of general neurosurgery/trauma call.

Either "cush" jobs are only available once you make partner and have underlings take call for you, or your definition of cush means you make a lot less money in exchange for not pulling your weight. I don't know how you can get around this.

Maybe there are a few boutique spine-only practices, but in most cases ortho-spine handles ortho trauma and neuro-spine handles neuro trauma. And, if such practices exist, they are definitely not advertising open positions.

interesting. thanks.

 

[JordanMaria]

I'm not trying to scare you away, but at the large academic hospital I work at, we have TWO staff neurosurgeons. We are the only neurosurgery center for many, many miles and get every single emergent case in the region. They each probably work 100+ hours a week. That doesn't mean you can't find a sweet deal somewhere, I'm just giving you the one real-life example I'm familiar with.

 

[basupran]

Any surgical field is time consuming and has a brutal residency (except ortho that is)

Are you s*&tting me? Ortho is an 'easy/non-brutal' residency?

 

[H_Caulfield]

I would love to have something more objective, but scutwork.com is slacking on neurosurg and everybody's program is different.

One resident described the following. Does this sound about right?

M-F Neurosurg service
5:30am - 6 (7 on late days), call every third night
Weekend morning rounds at 7 instead of 5:30.

I had a second resident describe it as almost identical to general surgery, but that most surgeries are longer so you'll occasionally have a later night.

I really think people exaggerate when they talk about how ridiculous the hours are. Or atleast that's what I'm counting on.

 

[georgec]

I really think people exaggerate when they talk about how ridiculous the hours are. Or atleast that's what I'm counting on.

Ok. Having done this for 4 years now (residency), I will tell you we work the hardest in the hospital. Hands down. The only others who I see working this hard are the cardiothoracic fellows.

Having said that, neurosurgery is an awesome field.

 

[beaverfetus]

Ok. Having done this for 4 years now (residency), I will tell you we work the hardest in the hospital. Hands down. The only others who I see working this hard are the cardiothoracic fellows.

Having said that, neurosurgery is an awesome field.

the transplant fellows would like a word...

 

[firstdoc101]

Hey all, this is a little info from a 4th yr student going into IM so take it for what it is worth. I had the pleasure of working for the top Neurosurgeon at my school in the Midwest (he is the PD here too). I actually worked outside of the medical field for him and his family during my first year summer and I remember one story his wife told me that made me realize that NS is not for me: One day said neurosurgeon was sick and stayed home from work....i guess he became sick enough that he needed his wife to take him to the ER later that day. On the way to the ER he complained about how bad the traffic was and how it was just his luck to be feeling this bad and have this much traffic. Funny, his wife told me that the traffic was no worse than any other day but bc her husband woke up and drove to work around 4:30 AM and home again around 8:00 PM that he
1. never had to deal with traffic
2. always drove in to work in the dark and often drove home in the dark

So that goes to show you the dedication it takes to be a Neurosurgeon! Of note, he is probably pushing retirement age and still keeps these hours. However, I must say he is one of the nicest and well regarded men/women at our university and is also, seemingly, very happy. He also has a good and happy wife and very sucessful family. Finally, he is not flashy and doesnt have ferraris/maserati. So to each his/her own- just be ready to put some major hours in of your young (and old) life.

 

[leagueelbow]

Are you s*&tting me? Ortho is an 'easy/non-brutal' residency?

I was about to say!

 

[FatPigeon]

Hey all, this is a little info from a 4th yr student going into IM so take it for what it is worth. I had the pleasure of working for the top Neurosurgeon at my school in the Midwest (he is the PD here too). I actually worked outside of the medical field for him and his family during my first year summer and I remember one story his wife told me that made me realize that NS is not for me: One day said neurosurgeon was sick and stayed home from work....i guess he became sick enough that he needed his wife to take him to the ER later that day. On the way to the ER he complained about how bad the traffic was and how it was just his luck to be feeling this bad and have this much traffic. Funny, his wife told me that the traffic was no worse than any other day but bc her husband woke up and drove to work around 4:30 AM and home again around 8:00 PM that he
1. never had to deal with traffic
2. always drove in to work in the dark and often drove home in the dark

So that goes to show you the dedication it takes to be a Neurosurgeon! Of note, he is probably pushing retirement age and still keeps these hours. However, I must say he is one of the nicest and well regarded men/women at our university and is also, seemingly, very happy. He also has a good and happy wife and very sucessful family. Finally, he is not flashy and doesnt have ferraris/maserati. So to each his/her own- just be ready to put some major hours in of your young (and old) life.

While many neurosurgeons do work the 16 hours per day you're citing, the man for whom you worked has made a decision to work that hard. He's made a choice to be the program director at an academic hospital, and, as such, those are the hours he works.

For the sake of balancing the thread:
I know a neurosurgeon who works four days per week on elective spine cases. He probably makes less money this way, but it's what he's chosen to do.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that, when it comes to neurosurgery, we've had the chicken and the egg thing all wrong. People finish residency and CHOOSE to work like maniacs, because they smell either academic prestige or a million dollars per year. It isn't always that neurosurgery requires people to be so intense, but rather that people choosing neurosurgery happen to BE so intense, and want to make the most of having survived the nasty residency.

Just my opinion. On my lesser days I'm close to choosing orthopaedics or ENT over neuro, because the lifestyle is supposed to be so much better, but the truth is that they're all hard work...and after residency it's what you make of it.

 

[WVPanther]

So if I'm reading this thread right, which is an excellent thread by the way, it doesn't matter how much I love the CNS and surgery. If I want to spend time with my wife and be active in my kids growing up, then neurosurgery is not for me.

Ortho -> Spine Fellowship?

 

[jkjkjk]

So if I'm reading this thread right, which is an excellent thread by the way, it doesn't matter how much I love the CNS and surgery. If I want to spend time with my wife and be active in my kids growing up, then neurosurgery is not for me.

Ortho -> Spine Fellowship?

Well, you could do a neurosurgery and just do elective spine cases and work 50-60 hours.

But honesty, if you want to go into neurosurgery to do elective spine cases, then i dont want you to go into the field.

 

[FatPigeon]

I found an interesting article in a Boston newspaper today, about how students are staying away from general surgery, citing several private practices pulling about $125k net per year.

The confusing part of the article came during a description of how hard the hours in general surgery are. It went somewhat similar to "students are choosing higher paying fields with more predictable hours and better lifestyles, such as neurosurgery and cardiothoracic surgery."

Am I really missing something, or is the author of the article just a bit off his rocker? Those are actually the only two fields I'd considered to be just as bad as general, if not worse...

 

[Spine Specialist]

I found an interesting article in a Boston newspaper today, about how students are staying away from general surgery, citing several private practices pulling about $125k net per year.

The confusing part of the article came during a description of how hard the hours in general surgery are. It went somewhat similar to "students are choosing higher paying fields with more predictable hours and better lifestyles, such as neurosurgery and cardiothoracic surgery."

Am I really missing something, or is the author of the article just a bit off his rocker? Those are actually the only two fields I'd considered to be just as bad as general, if not worse...

Check out this related article...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123179145452274561.html

 

[WVPanther]

Well, you could do a neurosurgery and just do elective spine cases and work 50-60 hours.

But honesty, if you want to go into neurosurgery to do elective spine cases, then i dont want you to go into the field.

My brief "ortho --> spine fellowship" quote was just a summary of how I perceived the thread to have responded for such a desire to have a life outside of neurosurgery. It would not be my preferred route nor practice.

I'd rather do all of the field. I'd really like to probe the depths of neurosurgery and contribute to the neurological knowledge base, but I'm looking for ways to do that without having to make my family suffer.

My wife is on the road to becoming a physician. I don't know if that will help or hurt the cause of a person who wants to have both worlds (preferably simultaneously).

How would neurosurgeons and neurosurgery residents suggest structuring their educational experience so their post residency (everyone accepts no life here) practice can be both fruitful intellectually and allow that physician to be a good husband and father?

If it isn't possible, and I'm willing to accept that, what's the next best thing?

 

[BillyRubinstein]

Is there anybody out there who is a Neurosurgery Resident, and DOES have a wife/husband, and children, and is ina good functional relationship? Do people like this really exist?

 

[Habeed]

Perhaps a more interesting question is : what alternatives are there to having a family? No sex makes Jack go crazy, per say, and hookers have their flaws.

I mean, seriously speaking, sometimes you can't have it all. If you want to be a neurosurgeon who is completely dedicated to his or her craft and a world class expert, maybe you have to make compromises elsewhere.

Perhaps there is some alternative way to the typical family structure that would work...

 

[thethom]

Is there anybody out there who is a Neurosurgery Resident, and DOES have a wife/husband, and children, and is ina good functional relationship? Do people like this really exist?

Yes, there were a few with wives/kids on my neurosurgery residency interviews. That being said, its not impossible, however, it is not the NORM. Neurosurgery has destroyed more than it's fair share of relationships.

-T

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Is there anybody out there who is a Neurosurgery Resident, and DOES have a wife/husband, and children, and is ina good functional relationship? Do people like this really exist?

Of course. And they are not outliers by any means. One guy who graduated from my medical school last year matched into neurosurgery with a wife and newborn quadruplets. If he can make it work, anyone can!

 

[VFib911]

Of course. And they are not outliers by any means. One guy who graduated from my medical school last year matched into neurosurgery with a wife and newborn quadruplets. If he can make it work, anyone can!

If my math is correct - and often it is not - this guy has not even finished his first year of seven, more if a fellowship is in his future... I would not be so sure of this situation in the long haul to use it as an example in this case. Unless they have a major local family support system to lean on, they are in for some tough times with quads. I certainly wish them the best, but if they are successful in the long run, they most certainly are outliers.

My situation was that our first, and only so far, joined us the first day of M2 year and that was tough enough... But quads and a NS residency?? Certainly doable by all means, but a tough path.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

He graduated in 2007, so he's in his second year. His wife is staying home with them even though she had a career in fashion here in NYC.

He's an extreme example to be sure. My n is small as I'm a medical student not interested in going into neurosurgery-- but of the residents at my school's program, half are married (and all the female residents are); the attendings are mostly married to their original wives; of the medical students going into neurosurgery over the past 3-4 years (always 6+ per year) most are in relationships, etc.

I guess my point-- again, from my limited perspective-- is that while your childrearing/family life won't be conventional, neither will it be impossible.

 

[Raygun77]

What about functional/stereotatic neurosurg? Seems interesting and up and coming, great use of technology and elective procedures, in general.

Also, how about radiosurgery? I'm sure the 'procedures' would involve much planning, but when it comes down to it it would be far less taxing than an open excision, surely?

Or would radiosurgery be better pursued from a rad onc route?

Thanks in advance for any info in these practices!

 

[Noeljan]

He graduated in 2007, so he's in his second year. His wife is staying home with them even though she had a career in fashion here in NYC.

He's an extreme example to be sure. My n is small as I'm a medical student not interested in going into neurosurgery-- but of the residents at my school's program, half are married (and all the female residents are); the attendings are mostly married to their original wives; of the medical students going into neurosurgery over the past 3-4 years (always 6+ per year) most are in relationships, etc.

I guess my point-- again, from my limited perspective-- is that while your childrearing/family life won't be conventional, neither will it be impossible.

what about female NS with kids? Do you know of any (well residents)?

 

[BlondeDocteur]

No female resident I know has kids. It's like that in many surgical subs with only 1-3 residents per year, unfortunately.

 

[Bombrainiac]

I know world-class neurosurgeons who have done things like coached their kid's high school soccer team for 15+ years, whose kids adore them, have never been divorced, and are out of the hospital by 5-5:30. I also know "no-name," haven't-published-a-paper-since-residency neurosurgeons who are on their third wife, collect Lamborghinis, and have a condo next to the hospital, because they never get home. I know some docs in fields other than neurosurgery whose home lives make neurosurgeons look like Mrs. Beaver.

My advice is that you make family a priority starting in residency. You will develop crucial time-management skills and so will your spouse and kids. For example, my wife has already become accustomed to coming to the hospital regularly with dinner or with movies when I'm on call, so we can eat together and she can just read and hang out in the call room or in the conference room, so we can see each other in between calls. If you make family a priority in residency, then you will be able to have a good family life after residency. Remember, residency is your training-ground...not just for neurosurgery, but for life as a neurosurgeon. Don't be discouraged by family horror stories and neurosurgery. It's possible to have a great family life. I've seen it with my own two eyes, and it's not that rare. Our generation of doctors make family a big priority and it's evident...at least amongst the neurosurgery residents I know.

 

[UditNarayan]

much appreciated post Bombrainiac. how much of your life after residency comes down to where you decide to work? It would seem that if you are working in an environment of neurosurgeons who live at the hospital its tougher to be the one leaving at 5:30 when your colleagues are all there till later. i kno that at my neurosurg dept. most attendings stay till later (best time to catch them is like 7-8PM when they're all in their offices finishing up paperwork, etc.).

 

[Bombrainiac]

much appreciated post Bombrainiac. how much of your life after residency comes down to where you decide to work? It would seem that if you are working in an environment of neurosurgeons who live at the hospital its tougher to be the one leaving at 5:30 when your colleagues are all there till later. i kno that at my neurosurg dept. most attendings stay till later (best time to catch them is like 7-8PM when they're all in their offices finishing up paperwork, etc.).

Make no mistake: neurosurgeons work long and hard, but they LOVE what they do. I think that life after residency is determined by, well, your residency, because it is such a formative time for you. Usually, the chairman sets the tone for the whole department, and you can even see the interns and juniors start to take on the "personality" of the department. If you are an attending or in private practice, you can do as you please as long as you are not neglecting your patients. It all comes down to time management in the end.

I strongly suggest that you consider a residency program where family values are a high priority for the "higher ups" in the program and where their is a strong sense of family amongst the residents themselves. Life after residency is just an extension of residency. You will work just as hard or harder. I believe that training in residency is not just for being a good neurosurgeon, but also for being a great father, son, husband, wife, daughter, whatever. This will require you, no doubt, to be a little more intense and focused while at work, and to build that extra stamina so that when you go home you're not totally wasted and giving your family your leftovers. It's tough, but you've got seven years to get better at it.

 

[nycmedstudent]

anyone have any advice on who these "family-friendly" residency programs are? thanks.