lifestyle of the doctor

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golfboy

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From a distance, it seems like doctors have a nice life. How many people know what it's really like behind the curtains? Is the lifestyle enjoyable? All the money in the world doesn't mean jack if you hate your job.


I think this is a fundamental question that most pre-meds don't really consider, and i'm hoping that some of you could help me to answer that for myself (and yourself) as well.


How about the lifestyle of the md/phd, etc?

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golfboy said:
From a distance, it seems like doctors have a nice life. How many people know what it's really like behind the curtains? Is the lifestyle enjoyable? All the money in the world doesn't mean jack if you hate your job.


I think this is a fundamental question that most pre-meds don't really consider, and i'm hoping that some of you could help me to answer that for myself (and yourself) as well.


How about the lifestyle of the md/phd, etc?

When I shadowed, almost everyone advised me not to do it.

Don't do it unless you're driven. It's a lot of work and a lot of BS.

All work sucks, though. I just want to choose what work I'm going to hate until the day I retire :D
 
The lifestyle of a doctor can be great in any specialty. This lifestyle is of course has the trade off of less pay.

During training though? You are poor and overworked.
 
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MoosePilot said:
When I shadowed, almost everyone advised me not to do it.

Don't do it unless you're driven. It's a lot of work and a lot of BS.

All work sucks, though. I just want to choose what work I'm going to hate until the day I retire :D

i guess it depends. my parents are both doctors. i have never, in my whole life, heard them complain once about their respective jobs. my mom is a radiologist and works a 8-5, is never on call, and raves that radiology is the greatest feel on earth. my dad's not as enthusiastic as my mom but he likes what he does. my dad does work a lot more but he is happy with life. i think the most important thing is making sure you don't get so caught up in your job that you lose sight of other interests: music, friends etc.
-mota
 
I'm a PA in a GI group. From what I've observed, I think for the most part the lifestyle is good...certainly money can't hurt the situation. However, you have to be willing to work hard for the money. Wait a minute, isn't that in a song? Anyway...medicine requires sacrifice. This usually involves sacrifice of your spare time and time with family, but you also have to make sure you balance those sacrifices with trying to find time for the things you enjoy (and it may be time with family). It's a delicate balance.
 
I have worked with a doctor for three years now, a gynecologist, but not practicing ob now and he does not complain, ever.

I do know that he is on call during week ends, at any time, 2:00 am for example. during the week days, we sometimes leave the office at 7:30 pm,
so there is little time for your family and friends if you have your private practice. :eek:

money is not an issue, he makes about 300000 a year, sometimes less, sometimes more, it all depends.

i will say that if dont like it, do not do it because you can be miserable. :(

and believe me, patients DO NOT stop calling... :rolleyes:
 
The lifestyle is really dependant on specialty, where you are in your career and where you're working. There are 40 hour positions out there, but the majority of docs I know work 10-12+ hours per day 5-6 days a week. Some residencies are more demanding than others, some specialties are on call constantly (Ob/Gyn for instance), some carry very high insurance premiums (Anesthesia). In general, docs have a very high divorce rate, and it's not because of hot nurses...it's a very demanding job that doesnt leave alot of family time. If you're looking for a 9-5 job that pays six figures within a few years, medicine is not the way to go for you. If you want to be a dermatologist, radiologist, or cosmetic plastic surgeon (only doing boob jobs and liposuction), the life can be pretty sweet and easier (relative to someone in Internal Medicine or Neurosurgery).

But is spending 4 years in school, 3-7 years in residency (with the possibility of subspecialization training as well) and being $200k+ in debt worth it when you can make alot of money sooner with an MBA and only work 50-60hrs/wk?
 
golfboy said:
How about the lifestyle of the md/phd, etc?

I'll put my 2 cents into the MD-PhD question. I assume you mean academic research when you ask this question.

The nature of research funding is horrible. Less then 10% get funding. The pay is less than private practice. Even after 5 or 20 years of funding, if the grant monies dry up, so does your lab. This means the principle investigator must fire his colleagues and friends. I see it happening all around me. MD-PhDs who were my role models are giving it up for industry and private monies. If you can find a way to avoid the 5-year grant renewal process (i.e., have your own company or you're independently wealthy), then academics is great. Research is fun and creating something from nothing is exhilarating.

Consider my blog on the nature of academic research and publishing: http://www.medrounds.org/blog/2005/06/crisis-in-academic-publishing-and.html
 
LJDHC05 said:
The lifestyle is really dependant on specialty, where you are in your career and where you're working. There are 40 hour positions out there, but the majority of docs I know work 10-12+ hours per day 5-6 days a week. Some residencies are more demanding than others, some specialties are on call constantly (Ob/Gyn for instance), some carry very high insurance premiums (Anesthesia). In general, docs have a very high divorce rate, and it's not because of hot nurses...it's a very demanding job that doesnt leave alot of family time. If you're looking for a 9-5 job that pays six figures within a few years, medicine is not the way to go for you. If you want to be a dermatologist, radiologist, or cosmetic plastic surgeon (only doing boob jobs and liposuction), the life can be pretty sweet and easier (relative to someone in Internal Medicine or Neurosurgery).

But is spending 4 years in school, 3-7 years in residency (with the possibility of subspecialization training as well) and being $200k+ in debt worth it when you can make alot of money sooner with an MBA and only work 50-60hrs/wk?

Given that the so called "lifestyle specialties" are highly competitive. I wouldn't go into medicine expecting to work 40 hour weeks.
 
my uncle is a surgeon and he has told me many times to go into medicine. Sure, there are aspects of his job that he does not like. For the most part he likes operating and the money he makes; it looks like a pretty good deal to me.
 
My finance's dad is a pediatric oncologist at one of the Ivies' hospitals and made the interesting point that his nurse practitioner makes essentially the same hourly wage that he does, while only working a 40 hr week. He's there longer hours and is on service, while she does many of the same things he does but leaves every day at 5.

One more reason that you really have to want to be a doctor I guess, instead of taking an easier way out.
 
I think that your lifestyle as a doctor will be exactly what you make it, just like any other career. If you want to work 14 hour days and make a truckload of money, go for it--my uncle works 80+ hours a week as an anesthesiologist, is never home, has a terrible relationship with is family and has a distinct air of misery at all times. But that his choice and what he has to do to support a family of four on one income. In a mansion, no less. Not surprisingly, he is very unsupportive of me going into medicine.

My future parents in law are pretty much the opposite. They are both doctors, he has done internal medicine, cardiology and now works in addiction medicine. He never worked more than 4 days a week until their kids were all teenagers. The mom went all the way through med school and residency to become a psychiatrist and then took 20 years off to be a stay at home mom. She just started her psychiatry practice five years ago. They made it work by living frugally on a farm in the country, and they always had plenty of money to travel and do fun things. Today they both love their jobs, are still as relaxed and happy as always, and never worry about money because they have saved so much over the years. They are thrilled that I want to be a doctor.

So it's all about choices... I personally would rather know my own children and have a happy marriage than make a million dollars that I never have any time to enjoy. :p
 
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I have noticed that, too....some doctors (regardless of field) are workng 70+ hours/week while others are working 30-40, and some even less. Of course, everyone has anecdotal stories about doctors who work X number of hours per week and take Y days of vacation. The question I have is: How much is this negotiable?

Say I finish residency and am looking a position at ACME hospital Inc. When I am offered a position can I negotiate my pay, hours, vacation time and benefits? Does each hospital have a set offer that is take it or leave it? What if I'd like to have more time at home or want to take a sabatical overseas??
 
BooMed said:
So it's all about choices... I personally would rather know my own children and have a happy marriage than make a million dollars that I never have any time to enjoy. :p
:thumbup: My thoughts exactly!
 
First of all, some specialists (CT surgeons) make ten times as much as others (psychiatrists, pediatricians) so you can sort of gauge how important money is to you and factor that into your residency matching choices.

Second of all, a private practice is EXACTLY what you make it. The more you work, the more you make. I think the main difference between and orthopod making 300 a year and one making 500 a year is that the second one is working two more days a week.

Third, doctors are just like any other group of professionals. They only know what they know, and not the lives of others. They may bitch all the time about going to med school and ONLY making 200 a year, so they glorify the lifestyles of others, (That one lawyer they know who makes a million a year and vacations in the south of France all summer) and say " Go to law school" You'll make more money. In fact, 9 out of the top ten highest paid professions in this country are doctors. Sure there are CEO's of fortune five hundred companies who made 25 million dollars last year, but how many? (500, thats how many) and all the rest are making more normal incomes.

I wouldn't even say that lawyers have a better lifestyle on average. True theres no call, but lawyers don't get to take time off like private practice doctors can. For instance, the anesthesia group i followed around this summer rotates a three week on one week off schedule where they all end up with about 3 months off a year. My dad's a lawyer and he has to schedule his vacations a year in advance, and they might add up to 2 weeks total. Add to that the fact that my dad takes home under two hundred thousand a year for about a 60-70 hour work week, and decide for yourself how bad doctors have it. If you asked your mentor doctor whether or not he thought he made enough money, the answer would probably be no, and then if you asked how much would be enough, I bet you wouldn't even get an answer. There is no enough, period. Doctors have a great lifestyle and a lot of them don't even know it.
 
great advice right there will! but there are goods and bads to every single job out there and 95% of all peole would tell others to go into a different field, not just docs. They all have their equal amount of BS. From the janitor cleaning up throw up to the CEO being told by the board what to do and knowing they could yank his job at any time just as a change in mood. There is no perfect job. It doesn't exist.
 
FrkyBgStok said:
great advice right there will! but there are goods and bads to every single job out there and 95% of all peole would tell others to go into a different field, not just docs. They all have their equal amount of BS. From the janitor cleaning up throw up to the CEO being told by the board what to do and knowing they could yank his job at any time just as a change in mood. There is no perfect job. It doesn't exist.

Rubbing tanning oil on super models.
 
CTSballer11 said:
Rubbing tanning oil on super models.

lol I would hate doing that. That'd be the ultimate tease.
 
MoosePilot said:
When I shadowed, almost everyone advised me not to do it.

Don't do it unless you're driven. It's a lot of work and a lot of BS.

All work sucks, though. I just want to choose what work I'm going to hate until the day I retire :D
same here, i told a doc i was premed and he tried to convince me to be a lawyer or something else. and my dad is assuming i'm going to change my mind about medicine anytime now. i don't think so. i'm in this for the long run, even if it takes me 10yrs of applying to med schools! and i'm willing to sacrafice sleep among other things during residency. i know i will hate my job sometimes, but there's nothing else i'd rather do.
who needs sleep anyway? :)
 
What about the aspect of job security? Isnt that a big plus in being a doctor?
 
totally depends on the specialty..radiology is great...on the other hand transplantation is exhausting. My father is a liver transplant surgeon. Each surgery takes about 12 hours to do. He has done 8 in the past week. On top of that he does his rounds and clinic hours. At times he is expected (no kidding) to do two surgeries at the same time. It has happened. If you have a passion for medicine, it is worth it. I have never known a doctor that didn't work his or her butt off. I work in a hospital now, research, and everyday i am told not to go into medicine. It is what i love. I took two years off to work in the field...various aspects...and make my decision with eyes wide open. I strongly recommend that others put time into finding out what it is really like...ie getting paged at 2 am when you have less than 6 hours sleep for the past 48 hours...not an exaggeration!
 
Before you decide to become a doctor make sure you know what you are getting yourself into. After that just pick a specialty you will enjoy doing, save some lives along the way, make a little money, buy some nice things, and enjoy your life.
 
lyn2006 said:
My finance's dad is a pediatric oncologist at one of the Ivies' hospitals and made the interesting point that his nurse practitioner makes essentially the same hourly wage that he does, while only working a 40 hr week. He's there longer hours and is on service, while she does many of the same things he does but leaves every day at 5.

One more reason that you really have to want to be a doctor I guess, instead of taking an easier way out.

I think that absolutely stinks!!! Physicians should be compensated for their skills, espcially specialists. I know doctors that absolutely hate their jobs cause they know a simple factory worker makes the same as they do, without the headaches/stresses/education that come with being a doc. I think its absolutely a stinker of a deal for these intelligent people to work so hard and not get *justifiable* compensation. Yes, its a labor of love for many but it has to have its compensations too. If I were this dude and I could leave, I would in a heart beat. I wouldnt want to go through hell and back to become a highly specialized doc so that I could get a weak ass pay package. Theres alot of crap docs can do with their degrees, I'm just amazed people on this board think the only way to make money is by physically working for it.
 
it also depends on where you practice. for example, my father is a psychiatrist, and practices in a very high-density region of mentally ill patients (los angeles), and consequently, his pay is very high compared to most others in his field.

as for the lifestyle of a doctor, it is hard work, tiring, emotionally draining, but its all worth it, or so i hear...
 
for those who have shadowed doctors as moosepilot described, i firmly believe that they were not meant to be in medicine. yes it's a hard road but for those who love this stuff, it is not. i know i won't be out of school and making money until i'm at least 30. do i care? no. i love orthopedics and i love research, so it's all worth it to me. same with my doctors. they may complain about patients or complain about not having enough or having too much, but never about the profession itself.
 
golfboy said:
From a distance, it seems like doctors have a nice life. How many people know what it's really like behind the curtains? Is the lifestyle enjoyable? All the money in the world doesn't mean jack if you hate your job.


I think this is a fundamental question that most pre-meds don't really consider, and i'm hoping that some of you could help me to answer that for myself (and yourself) as well.


How about the lifestyle of the md/phd, etc?

Both my father and my sister are physicians. And though they say that they got into the field for different reasons, they both have repeatedly told me that if they could choose another profession they would do so in a heartbeat.

My father is a private practice internal medicine specialist in an underserved community where people are totally dependable on either medical, medicaid, and medicare. Under the current managed care systems, he sometimes has to fight with insurance companies and medical groups just to ensure they pay him for his services. And when they do pay him, sometimes their payment is a little $10 check....So obviously he makes most of his $ by sending patients to the hospital.......My father has been practicing long enough to have a good idea of how things have changed......Though he does not like the direction that medicine is heading, he likes it enough to continue even at 65. He is happy that he can say that he has never been laid off (b/c he works for himself).... Too bad my sister cannot say the same.
 
riceman04 said:
Both my father and my sister are physicians. And though they say that they got into the field for different reasons, they both have repeatedly told me that if they could choose another profession they would do so in a heartbeat.

My father is a private practice internal medicine specialist in an underserved community where people are totally dependable on either medical, medicaid, and medicare. Under the current managed care systems, he sometimes has to fight with insurance companies and medical groups just to ensure they pay him for his services. And when they do pay him, sometimes their payment is a little $10 check....So obviously he makes most of his $ by sending patients to the hospital.......My father has been practicing long enough to have a good idea of how things have changed......Though he does not like the direction that medicine is heading, he likes it enough to continue even at 65. He is happy that he can say that he has never been laid off (b/c he works for himself).... Too bad my sister cannot say the same.

My sister, who is an ob/gyn, started out working for MaGregor Medical Group in Herman Hospital Medical Towers located in the Texas Medical Center (largest med center in the world). This job was stable for a while.....but that was until she reached a specific payscale. Obviously these groups are out to make a profit off this facet of society; therefore, they will do what is necessary (within their means) to ensure that they make that profit (shredder you can explain this!!!!!!). Since MaGregor was starting to get into financial trouble they required that my sister take a $100,000 pay cut... :eek: :eek: ...Of course my sister said "HELL NO!".....So she was laid off and was forced to find another job!....Ironically my father always used to say that one of the reasons he decided to pursue a career in medicine is b/c of the job stabiliity!.....Well, that stability is non-existent now for MOST physicians! So my sister was hired by another medical group (kind of like a PPO), Kelsey Sebold, in Kemah, Texas (near Galveston but far from her house in West U. Houston). Well when she reached a specific payscale with this company she was laid off! This time she was not offered the opportunity to take the reduction. She was just given the "Our company is predicated on our ability to provide excellent medical care (gag... :barf: :barf: :barf:...gag) while making a profit......" speech. Everyone remember Aetna health insurance, right? Well it turns out that the majority of Kelsey Sebold's patients were covered by Aetna! When Aenta went belly up, Kelsey Sebold in turn lost several contracts (worth lots of $$$$$$). So I guess that kind of influnenced the company to lay off many of the docs on the higher payscale and bring in the newbies fresh out of residency training. After this 2nd job loss my sister decided to go private practice like my father...Now she is doing well!

It has been a blessing for me to have had the opportunity to grow up around several aspects of the medicine. I have been witness to many behind the scene events, such as docs arguing/fighting like little babies in the doc. lounge over a misdiagnoses/treatment plan, the reprimandment of docs who may have developed an alcoholic problem or may have become psychotic, and physicians, physicians chewing out hospital administrators, and etc....

My father and sister work hard to provide the best care possible to their patients. They live well, but have earned that living through blood, sweat, and tears!

Good luck everyone!!!!! :D :D :D :)
 
Riceman04, those were two kickass posts. I've encountered the same and mention it in my personal statement. Eventhough, we've had similar encounters, we still want to join the profession. I hope I dont have any regrets in the future.
 
Jon Davis said:
I know doctors that absolutely hate their jobs cause they know a simple factory worker makes the same as they do, without the headaches/stresses/education that come with being a doc.

Have you ever worked in a factory? First, there is no way a factory worker makes as much as a doctor, unless this is some type of factory different than what i'm thinking about....sheet metal, assembly, etc.

Second, don't say the headaches/stresses are nonexistent, i'd rather be tired from lack of sleep than physically exhausted from real labor....and then get no money for it
 
Jon Davis said:
Riceman04, those were two kickass posts. I've encountered the same and mention it in my personal statement. Eventhough, we've had similar encounters, we still want to join the profession. I hope I dont have any regrets in the future.

I dont think you will! You know what you are getting into!

Good luck
 
C.P. Jones said:
Have you ever worked in a factory? First, there is no way a factory worker makes as much as a doctor, unless this is some type of factory different than what i'm thinking about....sheet metal, assembly, etc.

Second, don't say the headaches/stresses are nonexistent, i'd rather be tired from lack of sleep than physically exhausted from real labor....and then get no money for it

Firstly, I met a janitor from a chrysler plant at a clinic. He was bragging to the doc that he made 100K (overtime, double shifts, etc), while the doc didnt make much more than him. This doc was a GP at a public clinic. I dunno what your beef is specifically, but they CAN make as much, I know first hand. I live in a bluecollar, automotive based city. Everyone largely works for auto companies and their suppliers.

Secondly, I dunno what specifically you're getting at. I suppose is a personally relative which you'd rather have. But my point was mostly about the education and mental streses docs go through versus a factory worker to works hard but has no headaches after work. They can leave their job, and forget about it. Basically, they leave work at work and lead a simple life. Docs can hardly do that. That was my point.
 
Megboo said:
I can see it being feasable that a janitor would make 100K a year at a factory with a lot of overtime as well as being a member of a union. Heck I know a union guy that gets paid $35/hr just to turn water on and off! The janitor can brag all he wants, but a physician has much more job security and is less indispensible. No offense to janitors, but it's the truth.

OB/GYNs carry some of the highest malpratice premiums as well, and hospitals ARE cutting back to save money. The hospital my mom contracts with dropped their OB care all togther because it cost more $$ to pay for my mom's insurance than they were bringing in with deliveries. Now if a woman in that area wants to deliver a baby, she has to go 25-30 miles to be delivered. The local hospital ER will take emergencies, but their policy is stabilize, then ship because of the malpractice. It's sad, and it's Illinois.

Yeah the same thing is occuring here in Los Angeles. The Ob department was recently closed at the notorious UCLA King Drew Hospital to save $$$
 
C.P. Jones said:
Have you ever worked in a factory? First, there is no way a factory worker makes as much as a doctor, unless this is some type of factory different than what i'm thinking about....sheet metal, assembly, etc.

Second, don't say the headaches/stresses are nonexistent, i'd rather be tired from lack of sleep than physically exhausted from real labor....and then get no money for it

Not true dude. I have many automotive customers, and I know guys that are hourly UAW, in a supervisor role, that make really close to 200K (and a few just over 200k). That's at Chrysler, but the same can be said of Ford and GM.

I've been in industrial automation for 8 years, and I know many of these guys. But, they work 6-7 days per week, and volunteer for all the overtime and holiday work. So, it comes at a cost, even for them.

Also, several years ago, a designer that knew 3D CAD could earn over 150K if they worked all the time etc. This doesn't happen as much anymore, but they can still earn a good living. Most don't have a college degree (maybe associates or a certificate).
 
Read "MD - Doctors talk about Themselves" It's a relatively old book (1988), but it still gives you a reality check about medicine. The looyers were already out in force back then, so you hear a lot of malpractice moaning.

Here's the Amazon link to the above
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...61364/sr=11-1/ref=sr_11_1/104-0394596-4104753

There are probably newer versions of this genre. Anybody know of them?
 
I'm glad to see many people share my point of view and have similar evidence to back it up. It is unfortunate that docs sometimes get the short end of the stick in society when it comes to compensation compared to others, but its part of the job. Thats really sad that docs have got to put up with crap like whole departments shutting down to save money. I've been reading Pres. Clinton's medicaid proposals for the 21st century (published in July 1999). Its a good read. If anyone wants a link, PM me.
 
riceman04 said:
Yeah the same thing is occuring here in Los Angeles. The Ob department was recently closed at the notorious UCLA King Drew Hospital to save $$$

Same thing in Alabama in the country. Women are having babies in their cars on the way to UAB and getting no pre/post natal care. :( People try to go in and set up free clinics but the need is now so great that no one clinic can cover everyone in an area, so they often shut right back down. :(

And I want to deliver babies... :(
 
It depends on your specialty, and it depends on how you define "lifestyle". Are you talking money? Job satisfaction? Stress? Free time?

Having done a 1-year hospital residency, I can tell you that residency absolutely sucks. If you're in a surgical specialty, expect to work MORE than the legally-allowed 80-hour work week. But that's just for the duration of your residency. Being in practice is easier.

As far as stress goes, it can vary so much that I won't try to address it here. Keep in mind, though, that there's academic medicine and then there's private practice. Two different entities with different stresses. Just remember that some specialties are tougher than others and require more of your time. OBGYN, for example, is one I'd never consider. Rumor has it that they get sued on average once every four years. That's stressful! Some specialties require more hospital call than others. That can be a major stress too.

As far as money goes, generally the surgical specialties make more, with dermatology being the notable exception. Primary care medicine (e.g. family, internal, pediatrics etc.) doesn't pay like it used to, it seems. Look it up on the web. The information is there.

Medicine is such a broad profession. Each specialty is different. Moreover, should you end up in private practice, it would be like running any other business--it could thrive, or it could fail. Typically though, healthcare practices succeed. How much they succeed can also vary with different circumstances. Generally though, physicians live good lives, make very good money, and are happy.

Then, on the other hand, there's dentistry. As a dentist I work 4 days a week and make well over $100k. The owner of the practice, who's almost 60, works 3 days a week and makes over $300k. If a nice, easygoing lifestyle is what you seek, dentistry's the profession of choice! The downsides to dentistry, however, are numerous but trivial if you're able to overlook them.





golfboy said:
From a distance, it seems like doctors have a nice life. How many people know what it's really like behind the curtains? Is the lifestyle enjoyable? All the money in the world doesn't mean jack if you hate your job.


I think this is a fundamental question that most pre-meds don't really consider, and i'm hoping that some of you could help me to answer that for myself (and yourself) as well.


How about the lifestyle of the md/phd, etc?
 
KifsterDDS said:
Then, on the other hand, there's dentistry. As a dentist I work 4 days a week and make well over $100k. The owner of the practice, who's almost 60, works 3 days a week and makes over $300k. If a nice, easygoing lifestyle is what you seek, dentistry's the profession of choice! The downsides to dentistry, however, are numerous but trivial if you're able to overlook them.

I'm currently a graduate student who's already been accepted into medical school for next year. Recently, I began to consider dentistry as a possible alternative to medicine. The more I looked into dentistry, the more I found that it seemed to have a lot of the benefits of medicine (interesting subject material, utilization of technology and patient interaction) without many of the detractors (managed care, grueling residencies, etc.). It also seemed to have another big plus for me, a family friendly lifestyle.
I am very interested to hear your opinion on what you consider to the downsides of dentistry to be. I'm trying to gain a better understanding of the field and all that is involved. Why did you chose dentistry?
 
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