Light at the end of the tunnel...

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miamijamba

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So after reading several of the posts here that describe the negative aspects of getting a PhD in Clinical or Counseling Psychology I cannot help but to feel discouraged about applying. I am fairly certain psychology is the field for me, but I want to be honest with myself before making such a large commitment (a guy afraid of commitment? no way!). I understand that the APA publishes the average salary somewhere around 60-70K and that very few people are reported as achieving over 100K/yr. What I would like to know is if there are people out there (and specifically here on SDN) that are making well above the national average and how reasonable it is to assume that a private practice psychologist in the NY area could make 100K/yr. Do you believe the published salary data is accurate?

Thanks in advance for your help and please don't take this to negativetown right away!

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I am still in my ph.d., but to answer your question, yes, several people on here make over 200k, both of those people have the Rx privledeges though. Another research neuropsychologist makes a lil over 100k. Its doable, very doable, but takes the extra time, effort, and business sense/ savy that many people dont want to give.
 
I am still in my ph.d., but to answer your question, yes, several people on here make over 200k, both of those people have the Rx privledeges though. Another research neuropsychologist makes a lil over 100k. Its doable, very doable, but takes the extra time, effort, and business sense/ savy that many people dont want to give.

It took me about four years of practice to start clearing six figures. I made about 110K last year, not including my VA benefit package.

Of course, I live in the SF Bay Area, and I also carry a lot of professional school debt. :scared:
 
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It took me about four years of practice to start clearing six figures. I made about 110K last year, not including my VA benefit package.

Of course, I live in the SF Bay Area, and I also carry a lot of professional school debt. :scared:

What kind of work do you primarily do? I'm going to guess that the majority of your time isn't spent in psychotherapy?
 
What kind of work do you primarily do? I'm going to guess that the majority of your time isn't spent in psychotherapy?

I do a lot of staff consultation (formal and informal) and staff trainings. Usually I supervise students who do the therapy stuff for me. In terms of 1:1 patient contact, I usually am doing a lot of assessment (capacity, neuropsych., cognitive). I'm usually carrying one or two psychotherapy patients at a time. Finally, I do have a somewhat active "research" program (as a 100% clinical staff member with the VA I'm not technically allowed to do research, but I've found my ways), makes up about 20% of my time right now.

I also (prior to having kid #2, that is) found a lot of time to do part time work, doing assessments for various agencies, working as a Neuropsychologist for a local rehabilitation outfit, and doing outside supervisory work.

I probably would be able to be more creative in finding ways to make money right now, but I'm sort of serving as the primary caregiver for two children right now so I'm somewhat limited. I don't think I will have made as much money this year as I did last year. :-(
 
I do a lot of staff consultation (formal and informal) and staff trainings. Usually I supervise students who do the therapy stuff for me. In terms of 1:1 patient contact, I usually am doing a lot of assessment (capacity, neuropsych., cognitive). I'm usually carrying one or two psychotherapy patients at a time. Finally, I do have a somewhat active "research" program (as a 100% clinical staff member with the VA I'm not technically allowed to do research, but I've found my ways), makes up about 20% of my time right now.

I also (prior to having kid #2, that is) found a lot of time to do part time work, doing assessments for various agencies, working as a Neuropsychologist for a local rehabilitation outfit, and doing outside supervisory work.

I probably would be able to be more creative in finding ways to make money right now, but I'm sort of serving as the primary caregiver for two children right now so I'm somewhat limited. I don't think I will have made as much money this year as I did last year. :-(

That's great though, it sounds like you've found a great way to market yourself and get yourself involved in various aspects of the field. This is proof that somebody CAN come out of a professional school with quite a bit of debt and still make it work. I am applying to both balanced PhD and PsyD programs, and would be happy to get into any of the 9 that I am applying to. Ideally, my future position will entail a good balance of clinical, assessment, research, and administrative work. It is good to know that even with a PsyD, this is feasible.
 
I do a lot of staff consultation (formal and informal) and staff trainings. Usually I supervise students who do the therapy stuff for me. In terms of 1:1 patient contact, I usually am doing a lot of assessment (capacity, neuropsych., cognitive). I'm usually carrying one or two psychotherapy patients at a time. Finally, I do have a somewhat active "research" program (as a 100% clinical staff member with the VA I'm not technically allowed to do research, but I've found my ways), makes up about 20% of my time right now.

I also (prior to having kid #2, that is) found a lot of time to do part time work, doing assessments for various agencies, working as a Neuropsychologist for a local rehabilitation outfit, and doing outside supervisory work.

I probably would be able to be more creative in finding ways to make money right now, but I'm sort of serving as the primary caregiver for two children right now so I'm somewhat limited. I don't think I will have made as much money this year as I did last year. :-(

I've found most VAs have some flexibility like the above, which is a major draw for me. I'm slightly concerned with the strong talk therapy push at most though, as I enjoy neuro and consultation, with little interest in therapy.

Dr. Gero, have you heard anything about the new behavioral health positions that were granted at each VA? From what i've seen the position looks slightly different at each VA, though the strong consultation and psycho-ed component intrigues me.

What do people charge for side assessment work? I'm thinking about supplementing my income w. Neuro and capacity assessments. I'm trying to weigh the pros/cons for doing it on my own instead of through an agency/company.
 
Not that it matters, but my doctorate is a PhD. Really doesn't matter.

Oh ok, I don't know what made me assume you had a PsyD. Well, like you said, I suppose it doesn't matter. It's just good to see that at least some people are making six figures!
 
I've found most VAs have some flexibility like the above, which is a major draw for me. I'm slightly concerned with the strong talk therapy push at most though, as I enjoy neuro and consultation, with little interest in therapy.

Dr. Gero, have you heard anything about the new behavioral health positions that were granted at each VA? From what i've seen the position looks slightly different at each VA, though the strong consultation and psycho-ed component intrigues me.

If you're actually talking about the "behavioral health coordinator" positions I mostly heard about them from you, to be honest. Coincidentally enough, I applied for one in the last few weeks, as my wife and I are strongly considering moving out of California, for a number of reasons.

What do people charge for side assessment work? I'm thinking about supplementing my income w. Neuro and capacity assessments. I'm trying to weigh the pros/cons for doing it on my own instead of through an agency/company.

To be honest, I was doing my assessments through agencies. I actually took a few half-hearted steps towards setting up a home-based private practice (not that I'd ever see anyone in my home - I'm all about home visits, as my clients are typically older adults or medical patients), but I never got around to going the whole way. It *is* something I look forward to doing in the future, though - I think with the experience I've amassed thus far I could probably make a reasonable go of an assessment-based private practice (e.g., focusing on capacity assessments and ideally eschewing Medicare).

When I was working as a Neuropsychologist for the rehab. company, I ended up with 80 bucks an hour and paid travel time (plus mileage). Given that, you could imagine what they were actually billing for my services.

For the capacity assessment stuff that I was doing with a different agency, they kick down 350 bucks per report on a flat-fee basis (again, so you can imagine what they probably ended up billing for my services).

The outside supervision work I was doing pro bono, along with doing occasional talks to family groups for a local nonprofit I've worked with over thee years.

Again, sadly, all of this side work has pretty much stopped right now, as my wife and I ended up deciding to 'be fruitful and multiply.' I'd love to actually hear more about the "light at the end of the tunnel," actually, although in the context I'm referring to I probably need to consult a different kind of discussion board. :laugh:
 
If you're actually talking about the "behavioral health coordinator" positions I mostly heard about them from you, to be honest.
:laugh:

It sounds promising, at least at the GS-13 level.

When I was working as a Neuropsychologist for the rehab. company, I ended up with 80 bucks an hour and paid travel time (plus mileage). Given that, you could imagine what they were actually billing for my services.
$80/hr sounds pretty good for agency work. The mark-up rate is incredible, thus my interest in running my own shop. I have seen full neuro batteries (8hrs) and detailed reports bill for $4k+. There is definitely money to be made. I'd like to eventually hire a tech and do a couple of reports a week.

For the capacity assessment stuff that I was doing with a different agency, they kick down 350 bucks per report on a flat-fee basis (again, so you can imagine what they probably ended up billing for my services).

I'm curious what your capacity assessment entails, as I've seen everything from a handful of screeners and a clinical interview, all the way up to full neuro batteries and lengthy clinical interview. I've done mostly brief batteries with an extensive clinical interview and reports from family/caregivers. They were fine for the straight-forward consults I handled, though I'd want something more if I was going to handle out-patient referrals and/or something likely to be contested in court.
 
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I'm curious what your capacity assessment entails, as I've seen everything from a handful of screeners and a clinical interview, all the way up to full neuro batteries and lengthy clinical interview.

My ideal capacity assessment would contain several features:

1) a semi-structured capacity assessment interview tool, like the Hopkins or the Hopemont. There are others.

2) at minimum, a neuropsychological screening battery (RBANS), although this can run the gamut to running most of the WMS or WAIS scales and other stuff depending on the potential neuropsych. issues the patient may present with.

3) Also, some sort of assessment of the patient's functional capacities (ADLs/IADLs) seems in order - to really round out the results of the cognitive testing and give real-world examples of what the patient can and can't do for themselves. I just got an "Independent Living Scales" kit delivered recently and I really like it, although there are some reasonable assessments that any OT department can also conduct. There are also good caregiver checklists that can be used for this purpose. And finally,

4) there's the psychiatric piece - depending on the presenting issues this can be as minimal as a brief personality checklist (I like Steve Strack's the Personality Adjective Check List) plus a few brief mood checklists (e.g., GDS, BDI, BAI, etc.), or a PAI or MMPI-2.

And, of course, there's the clinical interview, and interviewing caregivers and family members where possible.

And yes, I've seen psychologists write capacity declarations for patients where they've just seen them for a brief interview and an MMSE (!). My approach definitely is much more obsessive, but I figure since we're talking about depriving people of basic liberties, I better cover all the bases.
 
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