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List reasons why DOs might do allopathic residency.

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by cbc, May 3, 2004.

  1. cbc

    cbc Senior Member
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    I have nothing but respect. I am just asking out of *curiosity.* Most DOs say they chose DO for the osteopathic philosophy. In that case, why do some DOs do allopathic residencies? Since the most important medical knowledge/training is acquired during residency, it makes sense that those who embrace the osteopathic philosophy would do osteopathic residency. Please explain. Thank you.
     
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  3. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    I would argue with the statement that most DO's say they chose their path because of the osteopathic philosophy. Let me add that it may indeed be true for those on this forum however.
     
  4. Adapt

    Adapt 2K Member
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    As far as I know, DOs usually enter into MD residencies simply because many times they are better than the DO ones. They may get more funding, more patients, and generally offer better training. Thus, many DOs go this route.
     
  5. Ratch

    Ratch Senior Member
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    DO = largely community based medicine, not many big university affiliated programs

    MD = more university training institutions - larger programs that see more patients, more etiologic exposure
     
  6. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    Also, there truly are not enough residency slots for the graduating DOs each year.
     
  7. Doctor Peloncito

    Doctor Peloncito Family Physician
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    Geography is one reason, another is the availablity of certain residencies. For example there is only one AOA PM&R residency (and it is a dually accredited one at MSU).
     
  8. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    :laugh:

    Sorry. I couldn't let this one go.

    Tulsa, OK
    Kirksville, MO
    Kansas City, MO
    Des Moines, IA
    East Lansing, MI
    Erie, PA
    Athens, OH
    Pikeville, KY
    Stratford, NJ
    Biddeford, ME
    Lewisburg, VA
    Blacksburg, VA
    Pomona, CA

    These are definitely NOT geographically desirable areas to live.

    An exception would be if you have family ties to one of these cities or live reasonably close.

    Edit: forgot to add that these locations SUPPORT the reason why people choose MD over DO for residency.
     
  9. sophiejane

    sophiejane Exhausted
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    You forgot Texas!

    There are osteo residencies in Ft. Worth and Corpus Christi. Ft. Worth is close to Dallas and Corpus is close to the beach.

    But your point is well taken.

    Apparently, we also do allo residencies because the allo residencies WANT us and have space for us.
     
  10. Anasazi23

    Anasazi23 Your Digital Ruler
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    Very true. For example, there are 3 DO psychiatry residencies in the country. I think there are something like 2 or 4 neurology DO residencies. While most DOs still go into primary medicine (family, peds, IM, OB), an increasing number are specializing. The AOA has been woefully inadequate in obtaining new residency positions and accrediting allopathic residencies, although I hear that the latter is changing.
     
  11. cooldreams

    cooldreams American Mensa Member :)
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    i have family in kansas city, and kansas city is a pretty decent place... just wish that the doctor salaries were not so much lower than in surrounding communities - it is keeping many from working here...
     
  12. PublicHealth

    PublicHealth Membership Revoked
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    Would you prefer that foreign-trained physicians take the spots instead? They are MDs, after all.

    Philosophy doesn't have much to do with medicine. DOs receive additional training in OMM. This is the only thing that distinguishes DOs from MDs clinically. Because they have this extra training, many top PM&R residency programs commonly accept DOs -- they simply have more to offer clinically.
     
  13. Pilot

    Pilot Senior Member
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    It is obvious from a review of cbc's posts that he views DO's as inferior to MD's. I would suggest not responding to anymore of his/her posts. The effort will not change any attitudes. I, for one, will not respond to any more posts from this troll.
     
  14. bigmuny

    bigmuny Senior Member
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    Obviously there are numerous reasons why a DO might chooses a ACGME residency over an AOA one. It is a personal decision and really does not need to be justified. Graduate medical education is federally funded, so my tax money, my parents tax money, my friends tax money, ect... is paying for it, and if I choose to pursue a ACGME program, then I will. I also do realize that AOA programs are open only to DOs, and this is wrong and should be changed in all fairness. I doubt there would be a mad rush from the MD community to take those spots however.
     
  15. VentdependenT

    VentdependenT You didnt build thaT
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    Allopathic hospitals tend to have better donuts than osteopathic ones. Hence my choice for the former.
     
  16. Robz

    Robz La Vie Boheme
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    mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... donut.......
     
  17. Doctor Peloncito

    Doctor Peloncito Family Physician
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    Dire, I was answering the question as to why someone might want to do an ACGME residency over an AOA residency.

     
  18. Robz

    Robz La Vie Boheme
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    From my point of view(pre-M1 at this point), I am going into school knowing I want an allopathic residency and I am willing to do the work nessessary to do well in academics. Why am I interested in such? Couple of main reasons, one being that I wanted to interview at multiple locations, find a residency that will give me lots of exposures to not only my chosen field but have resources of other resident programs too. I want to have the time and effort to find the place for me. Secondly, there are limited DO residencies in limited areas, or so it seems to me. There are way more residencies than there are available spots. Third, I am not that interested in a transitional year required by those famous 5 states. I want to get out of school get into my residency and challenge the required year for those states.

    thats about all I can think of at the moment.
     
  19. daelroy

    daelroy Senior Member
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    1. Not very many DO residencies exist
    2. Most of them are not established and hence tend to be underfunded and disorganized.
    3. They suffer in quality when compared to their allopathic counterparts.

    This is one unfortunate and bad quality about osteopathic education. They spend more money opening schools than they do opening residency programs and improving the quality of those that exist.
     
  20. cbc

    cbc Senior Member
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    This is a superb response. Thank you.

     
  21. drdrtoledo

    drdrtoledo Pharm Delicious
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    Another reason... If someone wants to do a fellowship they sometimes need to have finished an ACGME accredited residency and be allopathically board certified in order to sit for the subspecialty exam. An example is critical care surgery. If you do an AOA surgery program you can do a CC fellowship but cannot take the test. Some places won't even accept AOA residencies as prerequisite. Since more certifications = more $$$ (usually) it's a logical choice if a fellowship interests you. I don't agree with it and it seems silly to me, but I didn't make the rules.
    ATnS
     
  22. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    This is true for the medicine subspecialties as well. AOA IM residency + ACGME fellowship = no board certification.

    The significance of board certification goes well beyond money. It is REQUIRED 99% of the time to get a job in private practice, get hospital privileges, and get insurance reimbursment. This wasn't the case several years ago. Times have changed and board certified now means everything.
     
  23. Doctor Peloncito

    Doctor Peloncito Family Physician
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    We met a 1980 grad of our school a few weeks ago who after 24 years of practice has to go back and do a FP residency because he wants to teach. He was grandfathered into board certification but in order to teach he has to be "residency" trained. His attendings will be his former interns and residents :laugh:

    Ironically, the doctor who will certify the completion of his residency has his signature on hers.
     
  24. pathdawg

    pathdawg Senior Member
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    First off, DireWolf, I love your screen name (please don't murder me...)

    As for DO's doing MD residencies, this is the deal from my perspective (a DO who has done an MD residency and fellowship). If you are pursuing a specialty in which you can do an MD residency (i.e. IM, Psych, Path, PM&R, etc.), then you really should do it. It is not a bad idea to a) do a residency in the best place you possibly can and b) mainstream. If you want a specalty that is super-competitive (i.e. Optho, Derm), then you are not realistically going to get an MD residency unless you have some serious connections. There are some very fine DO residencies in these fields (and in other areas for that matter).
    If you are a DO and want to do derm, then you are pretty much going to do a DO derm residency (if your lucky). There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. You would be well trained. Its just that given the choice (in a specialty where it is plasuible), I would go the MD route.
    I don't mean to come off as self-loathing. I am just realistic.
     
  25. drvlad2004

    drvlad2004 Senior Member
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    1) Another reason why I wouldn't want to do an osteopathic residency is that many DO programs are unstable along with being at a tiny community hospital. There have been several DO residencies that have closed down, which is almost as much as new programs that have opened up.

    2) There is a very limited variety of specialties on the osteopathic side. Not all of us want to do FP, which sucks in downstate in NY. For example, there is only 1 PM&R DO program (MSUCOM), which is a combined AOA/ACGME program with only 2 spots. There are only 2 AOA Gas programs.

    3) The AOA has been too slow to progress. There has been talk of dually accredited residencies but there still is very few of them. The amount of AOA residency programs alone is embarassingly low.

    4) I really haven't seen enough AOA residency programs fully incorporate OMM into their curriculum, regardless of specialty. That troubles me.
     
  26. Boomer

    Boomer Supreme Sooner Member
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    I found 11 anesthesia programs on do-online.org.
     
  27. skypilot

    skypilot 2K Member
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    "Most" not "some" DOs do allopathic residencies. Over 65% choose allopathic residencies for the reasons mentioned.
     
  28. VentdependenT

    VentdependenT You didnt build thaT
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    For curiosity sake I tried to find out more about these programs, but found it very difficult to do so. Overall it seemed that they where at locations with low surgical volume (as opposed to some massive university hospital)...not sure if that affects the quality of the grads as I have never met an AOA trained anesthesiologist.

    One person from my class is going into an AOA program for 05. I'll try and find out more from her.
     
  29. Boomer

    Boomer Supreme Sooner Member
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    Not saying the quality is great, just that they exist.

    I'm currently doing a gas rotation at one of them (guess which one) and there is certainly no problem with sufficient numbers of cases (the resident I worked with today has done over 650 cases in his CA-1 year, with two months remaining). Maybe not the case at all programs, but that is why it's important to do your research if you're applying to these places.

    Also, rumor has it, that the program at Des Peres hospital in St. Louis hosts anesthesia residents from SLU on out rotations for cardiac cases (maybe someone who's more interested could verify that). I know one of our classmates rotated there and that's what he told me.

    As for our classmate going to the DO anesthesia program, she could have done so much better, except for that couples matching thing....

    Later dude
     
  30. VentdependenT

    VentdependenT You didnt build thaT
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    Thats good to hear. I agree that she could have gotten into a competitive program. See your punk a$$ on the 1st.
     
  31. bluesunlily

    bluesunlily Member
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    Dire,
    You've obviously not visited Biddeford, ME.

    Bluesunlily
     
  32. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    care to elaborate?
     
  33. bluesunlily

    bluesunlily Member
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    Really that's just a long list of cities in which to live...seems like it's a
    pretty strong statement to say they're all geographically undesirable
    to all people. What makes them ALL geographically undesirable???

    Biddeford...well, it's on the coast of Maine -- sandy and rocky shores.
    The trees are beautiful, the houses are cute and the people are laid
    back and genuinely nice. It's close to Portland which has city life.

    I grew up in Tulsa, OK. And despite the picture John Steinbeck may
    have painted of OK and "okies", Tulsa is actually quite beautiful -- green
    and lush, huge parks, and gorgeous art deco architecture constructed during
    the oil boom of the 1920's.

    Anyway, the bottom line is that home is where you hang your hat. I'm
    sure we all have different preferences, but I guess I just wouldn't consider
    the locations of the schools a major reason DOs would choose allopathic
    residencies.

    Just my $0.02
     
  34. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    Thanks for the good word on Tulsa. I like it here. :)
     
  35. sophiejane

    sophiejane Exhausted
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    I also grew up in Tulsa. I have a very soft spot in my heart for that town, and I still love to visit--it's a very liveable place, and getting more so, especially downtown and closer in. (By the way, Bluesunlilly--where did you go to high school? Tulsa is small enough that I bet we know some of the same people).

    So many things go into making a place desirable, and everyone's criteria are different. You have to weigh it all.
     
  36. DrCoreyOSU

    DrCoreyOSU Cytotoxic!
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    My thoughts exactly!
     
  37. Cookie Monster

    Cookie Monster monster member
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    One reason for going with an allopathic residency that I'm surprized has not been mentioned (maybe I skipped over it?) is if a significant other is a MD and you want to do your residencies together.
     
  38. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    While I disagree with ya'll about Tulsa, your points are well-taken.

    In my original post I was alluding to the fact that a "majority" of people would not find the places I mentioned "desirable" as compared to other cities such as LA, NYC, Chicago, etc., etc.

    I think STL is the greatest city in the US, so that goes to show I have my own views on what makes a city desirable.

    BTW, Tulsa is a decent place for med school = medium-sized city, low cost of living, needy patient population, enough things to keep me busy, no real distractions, nice people, etc. But someone would have to put a gun to my head for me to stay here after school. :D ;)
     
  39. DrDavesWife

    DrDavesWife New Member

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    This is the reason I now choose to see DOs instead of MDs -- the philosophy. I was under the distinct impression that OMM is NOT the only difference. Although I hate to make a generalization based on my experiences, it sounds as if the scope of difference is rather limited when reading your post.

    My patient experience reflected more of the following approach: human body as an entire network of interdependant systems (my experience with DOs) instead of targeting a specific area of complaint and then band-aiding the pain with medication (my experience with MDs).

    Just a comment.......
     

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