Living on student loans with a stay-at-home spouse?

[MCWIHEA]

I've heard of people living on just student loans with a stay-at-home spouse while in school. Is it really possible to live?? We have one child and I would love for my spouse to stay home with him 3rd and 4th year if possible but that sounds scary. (Maybe even residency too) How much do you think you could live on per year in expenses?? How much debt is too much after school is over?? With my tuition at $33,000/yr that seems like too much!

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[DOnut]

It depends on what city you are in. If you are in NYC, then NO WAY, but if you are in Erie, PA then you will live like a GOD off of your student loans. I actually know a girl who is a single mom in Erie, and she is able to not only live very comfortably, but also afford to put her child in daycare. It really depends on what city you choose.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I know at least two dozen students living off loans while the spouse raises the kid/kids. It can be done, you just need to be frugal and budget well.

It's not always easy, but my wife and I have made it happen here in AZ. We've been fortunate enough to buy a home (apartments are more expensive than mortgages here). I know many others that have done the same. Best of luck to you.

As far as debt goes, we've only had to take out sub. and unsub. Staffords. I know others that have had to take out private loans however.

 

[DrMom]

My study partner has 3 kiddos & a SAH wife. His tuition is in the mid-30s. He borrows a lot, but it can definitely work.

 

[melonaid]

Hi -
Answering your question: I am a stay-at-home mom while my husband is in his second year of med school. We only live on student loans. It has worked out great so far. We have not had to take out any private loans in addition to our federal student loans and it is our goal to keep it that way (if possible!). It helps that he had a paid research internship the summer after 1st year ($5000) and I manage our apartments in exchange for a rent deduction.
Also, there is no way we'd be able to do it without getting food stamps and medicaid. Most families in medical school without an income that I know qualify for medicaid and WIC and some qualify for food stamps.
There isn't much extra after paying for rent and other necessary expenses. It is not a lavish life. We live in student housing and drive an older car. But it is definitely doable!

 

[PunkmedGirl]

It depends on what city you are in. If you are in NYC, then NO WAY, but if you are in Erie, PA then you will live like a GOD off of your student loans. I actually know a girl who is a single mom in Erie, and she is able to not only live very comfortably, but also afford to put her child in daycare. It really depends on what city you choose.

Erie just went up a few notches on my list.

 

[Mr hawkings]

In my case i was the stay at home spouse. Its doable (i did it for 2 years) but it leave no room for emergencies.
One sick relative or death in the family that you have to fly out for could be devastating to your budget.
It happened to me where my wife's cousin she was close with died and we couldnt afford to both go so she went for the funeral and i stayed.
Plus dont forget that the extra money you borrow comes back to haunt you after residency when you've been deferring it for the las 6-9 years with interest acruing.

Dont forget also that in 4th year, you'll be doing a significant amount of traveling for interiews and these could bring added stress. Then comes graduation and you realize that you cannnot celebrate cos you are flat broke.

Lastly, there that 3-month period between graduation and when you get your first paycheck as a resident. You'll find yourself with an MD doing odd jobs off craiglist to make it through the summer or staying with family, not to mention if you happen to match out of state, you eed to come up with moving costs.

Needless to say, i got a job while she was in residency and our son went to day care. Life was so much better and we stopped fighting about every single extra dollar that was spent on something other than groveries and rent. Now i'm a med student and shes finishing residency and i still need to supplement her residents income with my loans.

I would advice against it but its doable if you have discipline and nothing bad happens in your life.

 

[beckhunter116]

Erie just went up a few notches on my list.

I think Erie probably still has a cheap cost of living, but this thread was started in 2004 so I know the price of everything has increased.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

I think Erie probably still has a cheap cost of living, but this thread was started in 2004 so I know the price of everything has increased.

Oh yea, I noticed. But I think Erie is still one of the cheaper places to live as well. And it snows. But my poobear told me last night she hates the snow after going to the mountains for a day trip.

 

[beckhunter116]

Oh yea, I noticed. But I think Erie is still one of the cheaper places to live as well. And it snows. But my poobear told me last night she hates the snow after going to the mountains for a day trip.

Aww...I'm sorry that your poobear doesn't like the snow, because I LOVE it!!!! LECOM isn't a perfect school, but I love the cheaper cost of both school and living, and that I can get some (ok a lot) snow.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Aww...I'm sorry that your poobear doesn't like the snow, because I LOVE it!!!! LECOM isn't a perfect school, but I love the cheaper cost of both school and living, and that I can get some (ok a lot) snow.

I know because I love the snow as well.

 

[homeboy]

Also, there is no way we'd be able to do it without getting food stamps and medicaid. Most families in medical school without an income that I know qualify for medicaid and WIC and some qualify for food stamps.
There isn't much extra after paying for rent and other necessary expenses. It is not a lavish life. We live in student housing and drive an older car. But it is definitely doable!

Ahhh...the obligatory post from the inevitable state-dependant medical student/spouse (statistically, probably Mormon) sucking tax dollars for all they're worth.

Do you happen to see the irony between what YOU suggest and what everyone else suggests???

Everyone else: yup, it sucks, but you can take out loans like the rest of us.

You: there's WIC, foodstamps, medicaid, low income housing, etc, etc...programs that derive their existence from a tax pool you will never in any meaningful way contribute to unless your husband practices medicine in same state.

I've said it a thousand times, and I'll say it a thousand more: it is utterly pathetic to think medical school qualifies your economic condition as one that necessitates state assistance programs designed for the poor, indigent, and less fortunate.

You chose to have kids and you chose to go to medical school...the taxpayers did not choose to support your endeavors in medical school, especially considering everyone else in your same boat takes out loans for THEIR higher education.

 

[Laryngophed]

needs a Rx for a chill pill, stat.

QFT.

As a doc, her husband will make more than enough and pay back what they use and then some in taxes. Come down off of the high horse there, partner.

 

[ABCZXX]

If it were my tax dollars, I would rather it go to melonaid than the average recipient. She doesn't seem like the type of person who had an extra kid to collect more $ and qualify for deeper incentives, which is what irritates me the most.

 

[Endolas]

She doesn't seem like the type of person who had an extra kid to collect more $ and qualify for deeper incentives, which is what irritates me the most.

She does seem the type of person who joins a forum to respond to a 6 year old post.

I mean seriously...

 

[homeboy]

Pathetic.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Ahhh...the obligatory post from the inevitable state-dependant medical student/spouse (statistically, probably Mormon) sucking tax dollars for all they're worth.

Do you happen to see the irony between what YOU suggest and what everyone else suggests???

Everyone else: yup, it sucks, but you can take out loans like the rest of us.

You: there's WIC, foodstamps, medicaid, low income housing, etc, etc...programs that derive their existence from a tax pool you will never in any meaningful way contribute to unless your husband practices medicine in same state.

I've said it a thousand times, and I'll say it a thousand more: it is utterly pathetic to think medical school qualifies your economic condition as one that necessitates state assistance programs designed for the poor, indigent, and less fortunate.

You chose to have kids and you chose to go to medical school...the taxpayers did not choose to support your endeavors in medical school, especially considering everyone else in your same boat takes out loans for THEIR higher education.

Pathetic.

Medical students aren't poor? Medical students don't qualify as less fortunate? I'm sorry I would rather pay for all of the above public assistance programs to a medical student who is working towards a career than to someone who pops out babies every month in order to get that extra 150 on their monthly TANF (TEMPORARY ASSISTANCE FOR NEEDY FAMILIES) check.

Medical students TEMPORARILY are asking for help UNTIL they are able to support themselves financially without any help from the government. To me your logic makes no sense at all, you would rather spend your tax dollars on someone who is about **** over someone who is getting an education that will lead to a well paying career within the next four years? Are you serious?? THat has to be the dumbest piece of hogwash I've ever heard anyone argue.

Being that your a resident, I'm going to estimate you make around 50k a year and pay 5k to 6k in taxes which roughly puts your contribution to public assistance programs around 300 to 350 a year which breaks down to about 25 to 29 bucks a month which breaks down to one dollar a day. Yea, fight the good fight brother.

 

[homeboy]

Medical students aren't poor? Medical students don't qualify as less fortunate? I'm sorry I would rather pay for all of the above public assistance programs to a medical student who is working towards a career than to someone who pops out babies every month in order to get that extra 150 on their monthly TANF (TEMPORARY ASSISTANCE FOR NEEDY FAMILIES) check.

Medical students TEMPORARILY are asking for help UNTIL they are able to support themselves financially without any help from the government. To me your logic makes no sense at all, you would rather spend your tax dollars on someone who is about **** over someone who is getting an education that will lead to a well paying career within the next four years? Are you serious?? THat has to be the dumbest piece of hogwash I've ever heard anyone argue.

Being that your a resident, I'm going to estimate you make around 50k a year and pay 5k to 6k in taxes which roughly puts your contribution to public assistance programs around 300 to 350 a year which breaks down to about 25 to 29 bucks a month which breaks down to one dollar a day. Yea, fight the good fight brother.

Logic FAIL.

And being that you're a premie, I'm going to estimate you haven't had the experience of going through medical school with hundreds of cash-strapped medical student comrades, all complaining about the boat loads of debt, all experience the same difficulties, some fortunate enough to have parents pay, but most stuck taking out loans for their living needs, while SOME take out LESS in loans because they have 3 kids and a spouse that doesn't want to / can't work.

If your argument is 'financial difficulty necessitates temporary assistance,' why doesn't everyone simply receive health insurance, food, etc? Why not have the state / fed pay for everyone's medical school difficulties? Why should a wife & kids guarantee you help but not the single students? Because they chose to have kids?

Listen, jr, I'm not arguing that medical school isn't "temproary" or financially stressful... But the "TEMPORARY ASSISTANCE FOR NEEDY FAMILIES" doesn't, as a matter of principle, include people who willingly PUT THEMSELVES IN THAT SITUATION, KNEW the difficulties ahead of time, and are on the cusp of a high income job. I'm no less arguing for welfare babies who drain the system, but the premise of my argument was based on the fact that MEDICAL SCHOOL IS A WILLFUL CHOICE, IT IS A STRICTLY DEFINED "TEMPORARY SITUATION," all but guarantees a 6-figure salary in a few short years, and it's a slap in the face to everyone ELSE who doesn't feel the need to rely on state & local governments to help them achieve their dreams of becoming a doctor.

Those programs are designed for the poor, indigent, and desparately in need of help...the fact that the system is already abused isn't an argument for INCREASED ABUSE BY HIGH ACHIEVERS. You'd "rather have the money go to med students"?? How does that improve the situation? You're only making it worse...it's not as if the welfare slackers aren't going to get paid because YOU chose to scam the system as well.

If you can't accept the fact that medical school is expensive and a rough financial journey, don't apply. You expect the tax payers to pick up your tab simply because you're a "good investment," but you offer nothing in return other than your career, which would be filled by the next applicant on the waitlist.

You're going to be making +/-$200,000 / yr in 8 years and the public should expect to pay for your health insurance, food, daycare, housing, et al, because you have kids and are too cheap to take out loans like the rest of us?

I'm sorry...I have absolutely no pitty for anyone CHOOSING to put themselves through med school, and neither should the tax payers.

 

[st2205]

Fact check on people taking out less in loans to get government assistance. I go to KCOM where, statistically speaking, there are probably more Mormon students that are married than any other medical school, and I don't know a single one who is relying on government assistance by taking out less in loans.

 

[homeboy]

Fact check on people taking out less in loans to get government assistance. I go to KCOM where, statistically speaking, there are probably more Mormon students that are married than any other medical school, and I don't know a single one who is relying on government assistance by taking out less in loans.

Fact check on geniuses that can't extrapolate:

scenario A: husband, wife, 2 kids...wife stays at home rather than working...husband takes out additional $10k to pay for health insurance.

scenario B: husband, wife, 2 kids...wife stays at home rather than working...husband does NOT take out additional $10k to pay for health insurance because he opts for Medicaid.

$0 is less than $10k.

Math FAIL.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Logic FAIL.

And being that you're a premie, I'm going to estimate you haven't had the experience of going through medical school with hundreds of cash-strapped medical student comrades, all complaining about the boat loads of debt, all experience the same difficulties, some fortunate enough to have parents pay, but most stuck taking out loans for their living needs, while SOME take out LESS in loans because they have 3 kids and a spouse that doesn't want to / can't work.

If your argument is 'financial difficulty necessitates temporary assistance,' why doesn't everyone simply receive health insurance, food, etc? Why not have the state / fed pay for everyone's medical school difficulties? Why should a wife & kids guarantee you help but not the single students? Because they chose to have kids?

Listen, jr, I'm not arguing that medical school isn't "temproary" or financially stressful... But the "TEMPORARY ASSISTANCE FOR NEEDY FAMILIES" doesn't, as a matter of principle, include people who willingly PUT THEMSELVES IN THAT SITUATION, KNEW the difficulties ahead of time, and are on the cusp of a high income job. I'm no less arguing for welfare babies who drain the system, but the premise of my argument was based on the fact that MEDICAL SCHOOL IS A WILLFUL CHOICE, IT IS A STRICTLY DEFINED "TEMPORARY SITUATION," all but guarantees a 6-figure salary in a few short years, and it's a slap in the face to everyone ELSE who doesn't feel the need to rely on state & local governments to help them achieve their dreams of becoming a doctor.

Those programs are designed for the poor, indigent, and desparately in need of help...the fact that the system is already abused isn't an argument for INCREASED ABUSE BY HIGH ACHIEVERS. You'd "rather have the money go to med students"?? How does that improve the situation? You're only making it worse...it's not as if the welfare slackers aren't going to get paid because YOU chose to scam the system as well.

If you can't accept the fact that medical school is expensive and a rough financial journey, don't apply. You expect the tax payers to pick up your tab simply because you're a "good investment," but you offer nothing in return other than your career, which would be filled by the next applicant on the waitlist.

You're going to be making +/-$200,000 / yr in 8 years and the public should expect to pay for your health insurance, food, daycare, housing, et al, because you have kids and are too cheap to take out loans like the rest of us?

I'm sorry...I have absolutely no pitty for anyone CHOOSING to put themselves through med school, and neither should the tax payers.

You know I was going to go in with a rebuttal to your argument, but I really don't feel like it. But your viewpoint is strictly political and you appear to have no understanding about how public assistance works or what it truly means to struggle and be forced to accept public assistance. Until you actually walk in someone shoes and truly understand why they CHOSE to accept public assistance then everything you say is just political.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Fact check on geniuses that can't extrapolate:

scenario A: husband, wife, 2 kids...wife stays at home rather than working...husband takes out additional $10k to pay for health insurance.

scenario B: husband, wife, 2 kids...wife stays at home rather than working...husband does NOT take out additional $10k to pay for health insurance because he opts for Medicaid.

$0 is less than $10k.

Math FAIL.

You're not taking out no additional nothing if you max out on your student loans which this seems to where you lack understanding. Yea, you can get private loans but everyone doesn't go into medical school with A+ credit.

So in essence you FAIL due to you mis-understanding of how financial aid works.

People don't accept public assistance because they don't want to take out more loans they accept it because their student budget (which is based on a single person and not a family) has a limit. I know one school in particular where you ONLY receive 12-15k for the academic year. What family are you supporting on that?

 

[jfellings]

Ahhh...the obligatory post from the inevitable state-dependant medical student/spouse (statistically, probably Mormon) sucking tax dollars for all they're worth.

Ignorant generalization fueled by a personal agenda

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Ignorant generalization fueled by a personal agenda

Tell me about it.

 

[homeboy]

I have no understanding of how public housing or financial aid works?
And I'm being lectured by premeds?
Keep trying, gang.

 

[st2205]

The student budget, at least at ATSU, is set for single people and you can't get any more funding. We tried the private loan option, but every private loan requires authorization from your school on the loan, which they won't authorize.

 

[st2205]

And again, I don't know a single student with a family who hasn't maxed out on their loans. It's not a matter of them taking out less to get on government programs. Obviously you're single, since you can't seem to understand this.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

I have no understanding of how public housing or financial aid works?
And I'm being lectured by premeds?
Keep trying, gang.

Really then tell us how it FA and public assistance works then, Mr. IKNOWEVERYFINGTHINGANDEVERYONEELSEISSTUPID?

But you know I'll provide you with a link and some extra info just in case you really don't know and are just trying be the BIG BAD RESIDENT.

http://www.finaid.org/loans/studentloan.phtml ...These are the limits set by the feds, Okayyyyy.. WHich means that every medical student in a American can ONLY get 40k a year...OKAYYYY. Students can also borrow from Grad Plus...YAY!!!!! NOT...Okayyyy BUT they can only borrow from Grad Plus UP to the PRE-SET STUDENT BUDGET that is set by their medical school.OKAYYYYY So let me just break it down a little further OKAYYYYYY.

Let's take a look at DMU's student budget. http://www.dmu.edu/fa/tuition_budgets/do/ (so you can follow along) Well it states that 1st year students can take out the MAX amount of $59,918. WAHOOOO, that's a LOT of MULA....NOT. Tuition is 35k a year....that leaves roughly 24k for you to play with. BUT WAIT.... THERE ARE FEEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OH NO!!!!! Uhmmm, you can give or take some fees so lets just guestimate that fees are about 2k. So that leaves you with 22k to live off for the year.

Now, according to the FEDERAL aka THA FEDS!!! proverty guidelines for a family of FIVE (using your example) income is around 25K. UHMMMMMMMM 22K is less than 25k so that means THEIR LIVING IN PROVERTY....OH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So they DO qualify for public assistance....

I know you are going to still argue that " THey CHOSE to go to medical", but whatever dude choice or not...no REAL PARENT is going to allow their kids to go hungry or without even if that means sucking it up and getting on public assistance. So while you think that MEDICAL STUDENTS are RAPING THE SYSTEM because their SMART and INTELLIGENT, think about what's really going on.

Parents are struggling to make a better LIFE for themselves as well as their families, and sometimes that doesn't always fit into your POLITICAL EXPECTATIONS of parents. I'm a firm believer in that success isn't equal to the amount of degrees or amount of money in your bank account, but the blood, sweat, and tears it took to achieve your goal. Everyone's struggle isn't the same so yours, so you can't say..."Well SINGLE students can do it WHY not students with families".

I could go into the TANF requirements and limits...but I'm tired.

The student budget, at least at ATSU, is set for single people and you can't get any more funding. We tried the private loan option, but every private loan requires authorization from your school on the loan, which they won't authorize.

And again, I don't know a single student with a family who hasn't maxed out on their loans. It's not a matter of them taking out less to get on government programs. Obviously you're single, since you can't seem to understand this.

He's not going to listen because we're beneath him in his ALLKNOWINGKNOWLEDGE self.

 

[homeboy]

The discussion has degenerated, thanks to my adolescent premed future-colleagues, into an incoherent tentertantrum because someone with a few ounces of social and financial integrity disagrees with the "i'll take mine any way I can get it" mentality.

The naivety you collectively express is astounding.

The irrefutable, undeniable fact of the matter, regardless of how you twist the argument to one of compassion, fairness or hardship, is that THERE EXISTS A SUBSET OF MEDICAL STUDENTS WHO HARBOR THE MINDSET THAT PUBLIC ASSISTANCE MERELY REQUIRES THE TECHNICAL QUALIFICATION OF FINANCIAL HARDSHIP, irrespective of WHY such hardship came about in the first place(ie. though planned & calculated action). I can't argue with the technicalities of the law and how one is "technically" in "poverty"...But I can, and always will, argue against the mindset that one's personal career & education decisions should be backed by public funds, intended for indigent & low income households, simply to avoid personal debt.

If you have 3 kids, a wife that won't/can't work, and you can't find a bank, a relative, or Don Corleone to loan you the extra $15k you need, why should I--the public-- be expected to help you fulfill your dreams of becoming a doctor?

I pose the question again: if a family of 4 can "justly" receive medicaid, WIC, foodstamps, et al low income public funds, why can't the single student? Are they not "impoverished" as well? Does their single status grant them less entitlement to public assistance?
What about college students? Are they not, generally, poor as well?

I've been married for 6 years...my first year of med school, we had to take out an extra $6k for health insurance. It's not that I wasn't crafty enough to seek medicaid...the thought just never crossed my mind. I put myself in that situation...I accepted responsibility for the hardships I was told would come down the pipeline.

There's no amount of links to "finaid.gov" or DMU (thanks for the link, but I'm all too familiar with their tuition, from which I have $175,000 in debt) that are going to convince me that because you willingly accepted, in every shape and form, the financial hardships of medical school, that your personal needs should be put on the backs of the citizens because you are technically, temporarily "poor."

 

[st2205]

If you have 3 kids, a wife that won't/can't work, and you can't find a bank, a relative, or Don Corleone to loan you the extra $15k you need, why should I--the public-- be expected to help you fulfill your dreams of becoming a doctor?

You're story is changing, which is really the only thing I have taken issue with in this thread -- that you claimed that married students who are "statistically Mormon" take out less in loans to get more in government aid. I'd invite you to either back this statement up or withdrawal it, as it's been made apparent by your comment above that this statement is false.

Also be aware that you, as a resident, are not the only tax payer in this thread.

 

[illegallysmooth]

Homeboy,
you think you're being logical and realistic, but you're not. I spend all day wading through seas of "indigent" people living off taxpayer's money so they can buy cigarettes, get their nails and hair done every week, buy those extra 10 pairs of sneakers and have the coolest phone on the block. Not to mention, they need a script for Tylenol because they can't afford acetaminophen for their 5 kids when they get fevers. Public assistance should be about helping those who CANNOT help themselves, yes, but it should also be about HELPING PEOPLE HELP THEMSELVES. That means EDUCATION. If public assistance helps someone get through med school so they can move forward with a successful career, one day paying back those taxes and contributing to society, there is nothing wrong with that. Why don't you turn your attention to the ***holes trying to buy beer with WIC?

 

[PunkmedGirl]

First off, I never said anything about RAPING the system because you don't feel like taking out the extra loans to cover living expenses, but being force to do so IF faced with that hardship is a completely different situation. You are the one who misunderstood what was said and what was written. If you know some medical students who did just as you proposed, then of course I don't agree with that. But 99.99999999999999999% of medical student don't possess that mentality about public assistance. You are the one who is stereotyping these students with that mindset when its simply not the case. Are there medical students out there that possess that mentality? Probably so but they are definitely not in the majority or the norm. Just as you have ignore everyone who has said this isn't case or the reasons why students accept public assistance, is the same reason why your argument makes no sense. Unless you have conducted a bona fide research that proves otherwise, then your argument is purely a null hypothesis.

For the record, if a single college student, regardless of their level of education, income falls below the poverty level they are eligible to receive public assistance. It's a misconception that single men or students/people can't receive public assistance.

Secondly, I'm not a child, I'm a WOMAN. I have been very blessed to be able to go to school full time and still provide for my daughter WITHOUT needing to resort to public assistance. With that said, if anything EVER happens to me where I couldn't provide for my child the way I normally would, you damn straight I'm going to go and get some public assistance until I can do better regardless of if I'm in undergrad or medical school. Not because I have your proclaimed ghetto mentality, but because I'm not EVER going to let my child go without food on the table every night. I'm also not going to sit here look down on someone for doing what the HAVE to do in order to provide for their family. You don't know what people have to go through before they get to that point where they HAVE to accept public assistance. People like you are so judgmental and generalize situations like these before even knowing all of the facts.

But it doesn't even matter because you are going to continue to look down on individuals who are on public assistance regardless if they are in school or not.

Why did you become a doctor again?

 

[PunkmedGirl]

homeboy,
you think you're being logical and realistic, but you're not. I spend all day wading through seas of "indigent" people living off taxpayer's money so they can buy cigarettes, get their nails and hair done every week, buy those extra 10 pairs of sneakers and have the coolest phone on the block. Not to mention, they need a script for tylenol because they can't afford acetaminophen for their 5 kids when they get fevers. Public assistance should be about helping those who cannot help themselves, yes, but it should also be about helping people help themselves. That means education. If public assistance helps someone get through med school so they can move forward with a successful career, one day paying back those taxes and contributing to society, there is nothing wrong with that. Why don't you turn your attention to the ***holes trying to buy beer with wic?

amen!!!!!

LOL. I don't know anyone stupid enough to buy beer with a WIC voucher.

 

[illegallysmooth]

And if you want to talk about qualifying for public assistance on the basis of not CHOOSING a hardship, that's going to eliminate the majority of recepients because they have children. I certainly didn't force the idiots I work with to procreate, and neither did anyone else. Maybe if public assistance had helped their parents become educated and/or provide a better education for their kids, they wouldn't have had kids at 16 and resign themselves to sucking at the governmental teat for the rest of their lives.

Ok. Now I'm done.

 

[homeboy]

You're story is changing, which is really the only thing I have taken issue with in this thread -- that you claimed that married students who are "statistically Mormon" take out less in loans to get more in government aid. I'd invite you to either back this statement up or withdrawal it, as it's been made apparent by your comment above that this statement is false.

Also be aware that you, as a resident, are not the only tax payer in this thread.

SPEAKING RELATIVELY, not QUANTITATIVELY.

I took money in loans for health insurance; the opposing view did NOT...thus, they took out LESS in loans for the purpose of health insurance.

Medicaid is not a LOAN...my $5k for health insurance WAS a loan...I took out more in loans for health insurance.

Not sure why this is so freaking hard to understand.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

SPEAKING RELATIVELY, not QUANTITATIVELY.

I took money in loans for health insurance; the opposing view did NOT...thus, they took out LESS in loans for the purpose of health insurance.

Medicaid is not a LOAN...my $5k for health insurance WAS a loan...I took out more in loans for health insurance.

Not sure why this is so freaking hard to understand.

Is this something you experience first hand or is this some hypothetical situation you have came up with to make you point seem more valid??
I and everyone else who has responded never said anything about NOT taking out the max amount of loans that you are ALLOWED too, but AFTER taking out the MAX amount of loans families still come UP SHORT. This is an individual school situation and not all schools have this problem. Some schools set their student budgets really high specifically to help students with families survive. YOU are the one who is NOT getting it. You are the one who is thinking that medical students can borrow whatever they want in order to make ends meet but in reality that's not the case. YOU are the one that's assuming that WE believe its OK to refuse LOANS and ACCEPT PUBLIC ASSISTANCE.

 

[homeboy]

Is this something you experience first hand or is this some hypothetical situation you have came up with to make you point seem more valid??
I and everyone else who has responded never said anything about NOT taking out the max amount of loans that you are ALLOWED too, but AFTER taking out the MAX amount of loans families still come UP SHORT. This is an individual school situation and not all schools have this problem. Some schools set their student budgets really high specifically to help students with families survive. YOU are the one who is NOT getting it. You are the one who is thinking that medical students can borrow whatever they want in order to make ends meet but in reality that's not the case. YOU are the one that's assuming that WE believe its OK to refuse LOANS and ACCEPT PUBLIC ASSISTANCE.

I never said people are turning down school loans (though I'm sure that happens, too). I'm sure most families max their loans, as do most students in general. What I have said, repeatedly, is that some medical students assume the role of "poverty stricken parents in need of help", and that that "impoverished condition" qualifies them for public funds intended for indigent, low income.

Schools may arbitrarily set loan limits of 50 or 60k, but they don't hold the strings on your ability to assume financial responsibility. There are other routes of obtaining money, and if those routes aren't accessible to you, I'm sorry, it's not the responsibility of John & Jane Doe Citizen to fund your journey through medical school with tax funds that are designed to assist the truly poor and indigent.

Listen, I'm not going to sit here and argue semantics about TANF, Medicaid, WIC, foodstamps, etc...I don't really care what justification you give me for using those funds, because it doesn't alter my belief that those programs are not intended for poor, lowly, indigent, struggling soon-to-be doctors.

If you can't make the financial obligation requisite of medical school because at this point in your life, the expense of your family doesn't allow for it, tough cookies...medical school is not going to happen. That's not "easy for me to say because I don't have kids"...I explicity planned my life, prior to and during medical school, for the very reality that I couldn't afford the financial hardship of both family & medical school.

Am I imposing my standards unfairly? Well, depends on your definition of "financial responsibility" ...for me, that includes the responsibility for all debt assumed, directly or tangentially.

I know that doesn't sound nice. But honey, life isn't fair. If your family is prohibitive cost-wise from you attending medical school, I'm sorry, too bad. You chose to have kids, a family, 2 dogs, whatever...I don't care. There is no "right" to attend medical school simply because you have the desire. If you can't achieve something without pawning the responsibilty onto a 3rd party (in this case, the public), try something else.

 

[Black Adder]

I never said people are turning down school loans (though I'm sure that happens, too). I'm sure most families max their loans, as do most students in general. What I have said, repeatedly, is that some medical students assume the role of "poverty stricken parents in need of help", and that that "impoverished condition" qualifies them for public funds intended for indigent, low income.

Schools may arbitrarily set loan limits of 50 or 60k, but they don't hold the strings on your ability to assume financial responsibility. There are other routes of obtaining money, and if those routes aren't accessible to you, I'm sorry, it's not the responsibility of John & Jane Doe Citizen to fund your journey through medical school with tax funds that are designed to assist the truly poor and indigent.

Listen, I'm not going to sit here and argue semantics about TANF, Medicaid, WIC, foodstamps, etc...I don't really care what justification you give me for using those funds, because it doesn't alter my belief that those programs are not intended for poor, lowly, indigent, struggling soon-to-be doctors.

If you can't make the financial obligation requisite of medical school because at this point in your life, the expense of your family doesn't allow for it, tough cookies...medical school is not going to happen. That's not "easy for me to say because I don't have kids"...I explicity planned my life, prior to and during medical school, for the very reality that I couldn't afford the financial hardship of both family & medical school.

Am I imposing my standards unfairly? Well, depends on your definition of "financial responsibility" ...for me, that includes the responsibility for all debt assumed, directly or tangentially.

I know that doesn't sound nice. But honey, life isn't fair. If your family is prohibitive cost-wise from you attending medical school, I'm sorry, too bad. You chose to have kids, a family, 2 dogs, whatever...I don't care. There is no "right" to attend medical school simply because you have the desire. If you can't achieve something without pawning the responsibilty onto a 3rd party (in this case, the public), try something else.

I'll be the one premie on your side of the ring... I share your views. Unfortunately, most people seem to expect that other people should bail them out when their life decisions start to pose a problem for them. There's nothing wrong with starting a family before/during med school.... it might even be a more satisfying experience for you to have a head start in starting a family and living the family life .... just realize that your life will be much more difficult, don't expect that you deserve greater assistance than a med student without a family to support simply because of your decision/choice.

 

[schrute]

I have to agree with homeboy on this one.

Medical school is graduate education; own the responsibility for every aspect of it or wait/do something else.

 

[ShyRem]

I may be a dissenting voice here. there are thousands of people who live on public assistance from whom we derive no benefit whatsoever. We're talking about medical students who might use public assistance now who will definitely be paying it back later. with interest. the amount they will be paying back should they not to go medical school will be much much smaller. so here, they will be paying back more than they use. Benefit for all.

I have a problem with the folks who sit on public assistance, file false disability claims, have more children to get more money on public assistance, etc. with absolutely no intentions of ever getting off and paying it back. This is definitely not the case with medical students.

that all being said, my husband worked nights while I was in medical school. We never used daycare. I studied only after my children were asleep and my husband off to work. We got benefits from his job. We never needed public assistance. But given my thought process above, i would support a medical student using it more than I would the dope-dealing alcoholic down the street.

 

[schrute]

I may be a dissenting voice here. there are thousands of people who live on public assistance from whom we derive no benefit whatsoever. We're talking about medical students who might use public assistance now who will definitely be paying it back later. with interest. the amount they will be paying back should they not to go medical school will be much much smaller. so here, they will be paying back more than they use. Benefit for all.

I have a problem with the folks who sit on public assistance, file false disability claims, have more children to get more money on public assistance, etc. with absolutely no intentions of ever getting off and paying it back. This is definitely not the case with medical students.

that all being said, my husband worked nights while I was in medical school. We never used daycare. I studied only after my children were asleep and my husband off to work. We got benefits from his job. We never needed public assistance. But given my thought process above, i would support a medical student using it more than I would the dope-dealing alcoholic down the street.

That sentiment has been expressed before ("I'd rather have the money go to med students than the alchy's and drug dealers..." etc), but the fact of the matter is it's not going to be taken from them and given to productive members of society.

The fact that such programs are already abused isn't justification to drain them even more.

Yes, physicians will pay taxes, but future repayment is not a qualifier for public funds...if you're using the "pay it back" logic, why not take out extra loan money? Wouldn't one repay that as well?
Additionally...every non-public-assistance medical student will pay back taxes, arguably more if they remain single...should they not be entitled as well?

 

[creativename]

I never said people are turning down school loans (though I'm sure that happens, too). I'm sure most families max their loans, as do most students in general. What I have said, repeatedly, is that some medical students assume the role of "poverty stricken parents in need of help", and that that "impoverished condition" qualifies them for public funds intended for indigent, low income.

Schools may arbitrarily set loan limits of 50 or 60k, but they don't hold the strings on your ability to assume financial responsibility. There are other routes of obtaining money, and if those routes aren't accessible to you, I'm sorry, it's not the responsibility of John & Jane Doe Citizen to fund your journey through medical school with tax funds that are designed to assist the truly poor and indigent.

Listen, I'm not going to sit here and argue semantics about TANF, Medicaid, WIC, foodstamps, etc...I don't really care what justification you give me for using those funds, because it doesn't alter my belief that those programs are not intended for poor, lowly, indigent, struggling soon-to-be doctors.

If you can't make the financial obligation requisite of medical school because at this point in your life, the expense of your family doesn't allow for it, tough cookies...medical school is not going to happen. That's not "easy for me to say because I don't have kids"...I explicity planned my life, prior to and during medical school, for the very reality that I couldn't afford the financial hardship of both family & medical school.

Am I imposing my standards unfairly? Well, depends on your definition of "financial responsibility" ...for me, that includes the responsibility for all debt assumed, directly or tangentially.

I know that doesn't sound nice. But honey, life isn't fair. If your family is prohibitive cost-wise from you attending medical school, I'm sorry, too bad. You chose to have kids, a family, 2 dogs, whatever...I don't care. There is no "right" to attend medical school simply because you have the desire. If you can't achieve something without pawning the responsibilty onto a 3rd party (in this case, the public), try something else.

I see your point actually and yet I see theirs as well. What I don't get is what's with all the seething hatred from the pre-meds for the poor? It's like they don't know any responsible poor people. Cell phones and sneakers, seriously? They have a 20th century communication device, the audacity! And walmart sneakers, what's next pants on the ground? I'm all about having consideration for where "free" money comes from and being responsible with how it's spent but from the sounds of it you expect these people to ride bicycles they handcarved out of wood and eat figs they grew out behind their shanty in Hooverville. Crazy as it may seem they have low income jobs that they use the money from to buy these things but had they not bought their "10" pairs of sneakers then just maybe they could have afforded private health insurance premiums albeit on a diet of air. But honestly, if a person is living below the poverty line and especially if they have children then I would never chastise that person for applying for public assistance. That's what it's there for, people that are just trying to eke out a living or in your case shore up a student loan. Just remember there's a requisite 10 shoe policy at most stores when using foodstamps. You'll soon find that it's more trouble than it's worth to get on certain "handout" list, not to mention all the tatoos and unsavory drugs you'll have to snort or shoot up. Good luck faux impoverished people.

 

[ShinyDome19]

I kinda have to agree with Homeboy on some of his points, but I think it ultimately comes down to one's priorities in life and how you define responsibility.

First off, in order to go to medical school, you generally already have a basic education. Hence, it is possible for person X, if married with young children, to go out and get a decent job for a couple years until his children are old enough to be in daycare or something. Assuming the children are the reason that his wife doesnt work, once they are a little older, he could start medical school and she would be able to go out and get a job and bring in some income to add to his student loans while he attends medical school... The situation in the posts above comes across as extremely poor family planning, which tax payers are paying for because person X was irresponsible.

Secondly, I volunteer regularly at a free clinic for the homeless and uninsured. I see people, like IllegallySmooth stated, that abuse the government aide to buy things like cell phones and nice fancy clothes, and daily supplies of marlboros..yet complain they cant afford medications on Wal-Mart's 4 dollar drug list, forcing the clinic to pay for them...generally, we call that irresponsible and extremely poor life priorities. But, by saying that a medical student who chooses to attend medical school while his wife isnt/cannot work, and refuses or is uncapable of taking out more loans than needed to take care of his family and supplements their income with my and your tax money...is okay? I fail to see the difference between the uneducated person and the med. student.

 

[DitchDoc73]

I pose the question again: if a family of 4 can "justly" receive medicaid, WIC, foodstamps, et al low income public funds, why can't the single student? Are they not "impoverished" as well? Does their single status grant them less entitlement to public assistance?
What about college students? Are they not, generally, poor as well?

It's quite simple...The federal government sets the poverty level for ALL families (including for single persons!)...22k for a family of 4 means they are living at the poverty level ($22,050 for 4 person family to be exact)...22k for a single person means they are living at twice the poverty level ($10,830 for 1 person family). If a single person is living below the poverty line, they will qualify (or be entitled as you put it) to many of these same public assistance programs.

And before you dismiss me as an adolescent pre-med idiot who doesn't know anything, realize that I am probably much older than you, and medical school is my second career. It's great that you have an opinion, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS AUTOMATICALLY CORRECT! It doesn't matter if you are a resident, that doesn't mean you know everything! Yes it sucks that some people take out loans for everything (as you claim to have done), while others take advantage of public assitance programs. I would not say they are trying to deceive or defraud the government, because they qualify for these programs based on their guidelines...Am I saying that it is right? I do not personally believe that the government should provide many of these programs, but that is my personal opinion. But I will not chastise people for taking advantage of programs legitimately.

Did you take subsidized loans at any time in you college career? Why should the federal government and the taxpayers foot the bill to subsidize your loans? All college students have more earning power than non-college educated students, so by your reasoning it is not appropriate to take the loans (because you are taking advantage of the taxpayers), because as a college graduate you have the increased ability to pay these loans without a subsidy.

Just my 2 cents on the whole debate.

 

[creativename]

I kinda have to agree with Homeboy on some of his points, but I think it ultimately comes down to one's priorities in life and how you define responsibility.

First off, in order to go to medical school, you generally already have a basic education. Hence, it is possible for person X, if married with young children, to go out and get a decent job for a couple years until his children are old enough to be in daycare or something. Assuming the children are the reason that his wife doesnt work, once they are a little older, he could start medical school and she would be able to go out and get a job and bring in some income to add to his student loans while he attends medical school... The situation in the posts above comes across as extremely poor family planning, which tax payers are paying for because person X was irresponsible.

Secondly, I volunteer regularly at a free clinic for the homeless and uninsured. I see people, like IllegallySmooth stated, that abuse the government aide to buy things like cell phones and nice fancy clothes, and daily supplies of marlboros..yet complain they cant afford medications on Wal-Mart's 4 dollar drug list, forcing the clinic to pay for them...generally, we call that irresponsible and extremely poor life priorities. But, by saying that a medical student who choses to attend medical school while his wife isnt/cannot work, and refuses or is uncapable of taking out more loans than needed to take care of his family and supplements their income with my and your tax money...is okay? I fail to see the difference between the uneducated person and the med. student.

My sentiments exactly, minus the part about how poor people are wasteful and pretty much deserve to die. Maybe if their medication had a little addictive substance in it then they'd be more inclined to go with that $4 drug. Tobacco addiction is just that an addiction, let's not beat up on people who smoke as if quitting were as easy as a $10 hooker after years of dependence. I know it's frustrating to watch patients squander cash on unhealthy habits but I think the better approach might be understanding how much better you are than them. hahahha. We all already know poor people tend to make bad decisions when it comes to money. What's new?It's not that they want to remain poor forever, it's that they don't want to be reminded of it each and every day of their statistically shorter lives.

 

[ShinyDome19]

My sentiments exactly, minus the part about how poor people are wasteful and pretty much deserve to die. Maybe if their medication had a little addictive substance in it then they'd be more inclined to go with that $4 drug. Tobacco addiction is just that an addiction, let's not beat up on people who smoke as if quitting were as easy as a $10 hooker after years of dependence. I know it's frustrating to watch patients squander cash on unhealthy habits but I think the better approach might be understanding how much better you are than them. hahahha. We all already know poor people tend to make bad decisions when it comes to money. What's new?It's not that they want to remain poor forever, it's that they don't want to be reminded of it each and every day of their statistically shorter lives.

What? I never implied that they should die...simply that their priorities are different, and in my mind incorrect. You do realize that free clinics are free because your Tax Dollars and generous physicians donate time/money to keep them running. So, when such a clinic has to go out and pay for someone's drugs, who, if they just smoked 1 less pack A MONTH, could afford the 4 dollar drug. Instead, the clinic has to use its extremely limited funds (our tax money, and money donated by physicians) to buy it...pretty much paying for the person's smokes for the month...great logic. Not to mention, that there are actual patients that cant afford anything...what happens to that patient when the clinic cannot afford their 4-dollar drug that month because the smoker came to the clinic first...oh yeah, this has actually happened and us volunteers went out and bought the patients perscription for that month with our personal money... Once you do that, I really doubt you'll have much sympathy for those who really cheat the system.

 

[homeboy]

It's quite simple...The federal government sets the poverty level for ALL families (including for single persons!)...22k for a family of 4 means they are living at the poverty level ($22,050 for 4 person family to be exact)...22k for a single person means they are living at twice the poverty level ($10,830 for 1 person family). If a single person is living below the poverty line, they will qualify (or be entitled as you put it) to many of these same public assistance programs.

And before you dismiss me as an adolescent pre-med idiot who doesn't know anything, realize that I am probably much older than you, and medical school is my second career. It's great that you have an opinion, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS AUTOMATICALLY CORRECT! It doesn't matter if you are a resident, that doesn't mean you know everything! Yes it sucks that some people take out loans for everything (as you claim to have done), while others take advantage of public assitance programs. I would not say they are trying to deceive or defraud the government, because they qualify for these programs based on their guidelines...Am I saying that it is right? I do not personally believe that the government should provide many of these programs, but that is my personal opinion. But I will not chastise people for taking advantage of programs legitimately.

Did you take subsidized loans at any time in you college career? Why should the federal government and the taxpayers foot the bill to subsidize your loans? All college students have more earning power than non-college educated students, so by your reasoning it is not appropriate to take the loans (because you are taking advantage of the taxpayers), because as a college graduate you have the increased ability to pay these loans without a subsidy.

Just my 2 cents on the whole debate.

Subsidized or not, it's still a LOAN...I'm not arguing for people NOT to use loans, educational or home or other, or to NOT take tax credits, or to not take advantage of any government service if it is INTENDED for them specifically, not just because they TECHNICALLY (and TEMPORARILY) fall within a category.

You can TECHNICALLY just hand the keys to your house over to the bank, file for bankruptcy, and walk away, regardless of how much it was YOUR fault you defaulted on your mortgage. That doesn't mean you SHOULD just because you CAN.

Being a non-trad med school applicant doens't make you right either. But then again it's not about you being right, or me being right, it's about doing the right thing, and the right thing is NOT to stick your hand into the Salvation Army bucket because it's temporarily within reach.

Listen, I can point to a specific population of students I encountered in med school that used every single solitary penny of public assistance, in the form of Medicaid, foodstamps, WIC, and public housing. I knew these people quite well, as did my wife, and not a single one of them would pay (via loans, savings or any other source of money) for a service if there was some form of goverment assistance that covered that service.

This mentality is not a fluke; it's not widespred, but it's a very common practice among certain populations of students at medical schools around the country, and I have no qualms about singling out that population at MY school being comprised of Mormons. At other schools it may be other populations of students...I don't really care...I just know it's a relatively common practice.

I just don't think it's right, and neither do the rest of people--specifically, single med students and married couples in which one spouse works--who assume financial responsibility for their actions.

 

[Daedra22]

Subsidized or not, it's still a LOAN...I'm not arguing for people NOT to use loans, educational or home or other, or to NOT take tax credits, or to not take advantage of any government service if it is INTENDED for them specifically, not just because they TECHNICALLY (and TEMPORARILY) fall within a category.

You can TECHNICALLY just hand the keys to your house over to the bank, file for bankruptcy, and walk away, regardless of how much it was YOUR fault you defaulted on your mortgage. That doesn't mean you SHOULD just because you CAN.

Being a non-trad med school applicant doens't make you right either. But then again it's not about you being right, or me being right, it's about doing the right thing, and the right thing is NOT to stick your hand into the Salvation Army bucket because it's temporarily within reach.

Listen, I can point to a specific population of students I encountered in med school that used every single solitary penny of public assistance, in the form of Medicaid, foodstamps, WIC, and public housing. I knew these people quite well, as did my wife, and not a single one of them would pay (via loans, savings or any other source of money) for a service if there was some form of goverment assistance that covered that service.

This mentality is not a fluke; it's not widespred, but it's a very common practice among certain populations of students at medical schools around the country, and I have no qualms about singling out that population at MY school being comprised of Mormons. At other schools it may be other populations of students...I don't really care...I just know it's a relatively common practice.

I just don't think it's right, and neither do the rest of people--specifically, single med students and married couples in which one spouse works--who assume financial responsibility for their actions.

Most of those programs, I would point out, are meant to be temporary. If you qualify for foodstamps for 3 months while in between jobs, or while in school, then it's fairly likely that you actually need the foodstamps at that point in time. If you financially cannot care for yourself and the government offers a program to help, I don't see why you should turn it down just because your situation is "temporary." Most situations (barring disabilities) are temporary.

Further, when there is a child involved, I think that it is essential to provide that child with the best you can offer them. If that means you need foodstamps and medicaid while in med school, then that's what it means. Even though I could live on the bare minimum foodstuffs and no health insurance, I would never want to deprive a child of enough healthy food and doctor visits.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Most of those programs, I would point out, are meant to be temporary. If you qualify for foodstamps for 3 months while in between jobs, or while in school, then it's fairly likely that you actually need the foodstamps at that point in time. If you financially cannot care for yourself and the government offers a program to help, I don't see why you should turn it down just because your situation is "temporary." Most situations (barring disabilities) are temporary.

Further, when there is a child involved, I think that it is essential to provide that child with the best you can offer them. If that means you need foodstamps and medicaid while in med school, then that's what it means. Even though I could live on the bare minimum foodstuffs and no health insurance, I would never want to deprive a child of enough healthy food and doctor visits.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say.