Living on student loans with a stay-at-home spouse?

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This is exactly what I'm trying to say.:thumbup:

I'm not saying "deprive your children of food", and I think I've all but made that abundantly clear.

Again, if you can't make the financial obligation requisite of medical school because at this point in your life, the expense of your family doesn't allow for it, tough cookies...medical school is not going to happen. That's not "easy for me to say because I don't have kids"...I explicity planned my life, prior to and during medical school, for the very reality that I couldn't afford the financial hardship of both family & medical school.

Am I imposing my standards unfairly? Well, depends on your definition of "financial responsibility" ...for me, that includes the responsibility for all debt assumed, directly or tangentially.

I know that doesn't sound nice. But honey, life isn't fair. If your family is prohibitive cost-wise from you attending medical school, I'm sorry, too bad. You chose to have kids, a family, 2 dogs, whatever...I don't care. There is no "right" to attend medical school simply because you have the desire. If you can't achieve something without pawning the responsibilty onto a 3rd party (in this case, the public), try something else.

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I know that doesn't sound nice. But honey, life isn't fair. If your family is prohibitive cost-wise from you attending medical school, I'm sorry, too bad. You chose to have kids, a family, 2 dogs, whatever...I don't care. There is no "right" to attend medical school simply because you have the desire. If you can't achieve something without pawning the responsibilty onto a 3rd party (in this case, the public), try something else.

Well, it's kind of a moot point, since it's not up to you or me. Currently people who show a financial need for social services can get them, med student or not.
 
Most of those programs, I would point out, are meant to be temporary. If you qualify for foodstamps for 3 months while in between jobs, or while in school, then it's fairly likely that you actually need the foodstamps at that point in time. If you financially cannot care for yourself and the government offers a program to help, I don't see why you should turn it down just because your situation is "temporary." Most situations (barring disabilities) are temporary.

I am very hesitant to comment in this thread because my views are really somewhere in the middle of the opposing sides. In SDN world, we tend to view things very black or white, either people on TANF/WIC/etc. are stupid, drugy, alcoholics, with 8 kids or they are the cream of the crop medical student who is going to ten times over repay their debt to society. Yes, there are some of all of those people and then there are thousands that fall in between these two voids who need and deserve help.

My problem with the bolded text is that there is a difference between 3 months of job loss and 4 years of planned school. Job loss typically isn't planned. Medical school requires planning, insane amounts of planning. Coordinating school/volunteering/job/shadowing/MCAT/family can be difficult. For people who voluntarily quit their jobs, I have qualms, but I don't think children should suffer b/c their parents may be fools. On that same token, I don't think the children of medical students should suffer either because their parents didn't plan on how to afford all of this.

My last thought is that the medical students should have to max out theirs loans before qualifying for those services. They shouldn't be able to take out less than other medical students and receive free services.
 
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I'm not saying "deprive your children of food", and I think I've all but made that abundantly clear.

Again, if you can't make the financial obligation requisite of medical school because at this point in your life, the expense of your family doesn't allow for it, tough cookies...medical school is not going to happen. That's not "easy for me to say because I don't have kids"...I explicity planned my life, prior to and during medical school, for the very reality that I couldn't afford the financial hardship of both family & medical school.

Am I imposing my standards unfairly? Well, depends on your definition of "financial responsibility" ...for me, that includes the responsibility for all debt assumed, directly or tangentially.

I know that doesn't sound nice. But honey, life isn't fair. If your family is prohibitive cost-wise from you attending medical school, I'm sorry, too bad. You chose to have kids, a family, 2 dogs, whatever...I don't care. There is no "right" to attend medical school simply because you have the desire. If you can't achieve something without pawning the responsibilty onto a 3rd party (in this case, the public), try something else.

Good for you.
 
I am very hesitant to comment in this thread because my views are really somewhere in the middle of the opposing sides. In SDN world, we tend to view things very black or white, either people on TANF/WIC/etc. are stupid, drugy, alcoholics, with 8 kids or they are the cream of the crop medical student who is going to ten times over repay their debt to society. Yes, there are some of all of those people and then there are thousands that fall in between these two voids who need and deserve help.

My problem with the bolded text is that there is a difference between 3 months of job loss and 4 years of planned school. Job loss typically isn't planned. Medical school requires planning, insane amounts of planning. Coordinating school/volunteering/job/shadowing/MCAT/family can be difficult. For people who voluntarily quit their jobs, I have qualms, but I don't think children should suffer b/c their parents may be fools. On that same token, I don't think the children of medical students should suffer either because their parents didn't plan on how to afford all of this.

My last thought is that the medical students should have to max out theirs loans before qualifying for those services. They shouldn't be able to take out less than other medical students and receive free services.

Valid points all. I think that maxing out the loans before taking social services is definitely a rational position. :thumbup:
 
Valid points all. I think that maxing out the loans before taking social services is definitely a rational position. :thumbup:

I would venture to guess that's what students normally do as well.
 
I would venture to guess that's what students normally do as well.

Exactly. I don't know why this notion keeps coming up that there's this endless bank of funds that students can draw from that everyone rejects in favor of government freebies.

The budgets are set for single people, and at my school the financial aid director stated that he "can't reward people for having a bigger family" by authorizing more loans (even private loans require school authorization), though I can't say being able to take out more debt is a reward.

Whether or not you agree or disagree that med students should receive government assistance is a completely different issue. As far as the whole Mormons thing goes, I'd wager that at KCOM there are more Mormons than any other school (except maybe the University of Utah, kind of by default) and to the tune of 30-40 per class, and I don't know a single one who has received any government aid that have not maxed out on loans. Again, whether you agree with receiving the aid or not is a completely different issue -- my issue is with the erroneous claim that these people have more loan aid available to them that they opt out of.
 
What? I never implied that they should die...simply that their priorities are different, and in my mind incorrect. You do realize that free clinics are free because your Tax Dollars and generous physicians donate time/money to keep them running. So, when such a clinic has to go out and pay for someone's drugs, who, if they just smoked 1 less pack A MONTH, could afford the 4 dollar drug. Instead, the clinic has to use its extremely limited funds (our tax money, and money donated by physicians) to buy it...pretty much paying for the person's smokes for the month...great logic. Not to mention, that there are actual patients that cant afford anything...what happens to that patient when the clinic cannot afford their 4-dollar drug that month because the smoker came to the clinic first...oh yeah, this has actually happened and us volunteers went out and bought the patients perscription for that month with our personal money... Once you do that, I really doubt you'll have much sympathy for those who really cheat the system.

You're a good man Charlie Brown. No sarcasm. I'll admit I lied about you saying poor people should die. These were words I may have misquoted or at worst taken out of context. haha. I was using hyperbole simply because the bad apple argument gets tossed around by many conservative movements whose ultimate goal is to block all spending on the apple orchard. Yet the close personal stories of kindness and all the good that gets done by these programs and the difference they make in people's lives goes untold in the process of griping over a few bad apples. I guess since the place you volunteer at is a non-profit every penny counts and you want to see it go to the most deserving or see it go as far as possible but still you gotta take some solace in doing good even when it's for those who don't do much good for themselves. My thing is, they're all pretty equally deserving regardless of bad money management or health habits. It's not like they're getting a new kidney. But I'll agree with you on a pack of cigarettes isn't asking too much from a person. They'd spend it elsewhere though. It's better to just give them the drug otherwise it'll never get bought. Keep fighting the good fight.
 
Exactly. I don't know why this notion keeps coming up that there's this endless bank of funds that students can draw from that everyone rejects in favor of government freebies.

The budgets are set for single people, and at my school the financial aid director stated that he "can't reward people for having a bigger family" by authorizing more loans (even private loans require school authorization), though I can't say being able to take out more debt is a reward.

Whether or not you agree or disagree that med students should receive government assistance is a completely different issue. As far as the whole Mormons thing goes, I'd wager that at KCOM there are more Mormons than any other school (except maybe the University of Utah, kind of by default) and to the tune of 30-40 per class, and I don't know a single one who has received any government aid that have not maxed out on loans. Again, whether you agree with receiving the aid or not is a completely different issue -- my issue is with the erroneous claim that these people have more loan aid available to them that they opt out of.

Trust me I know. I worked in an FA office for a year and was able to learn the ends and outs of student loans and grants.
 
You're a good man Charlie Brown. No sarcasm. I'll admit I lied about you saying poor people should die. These were words I may have misquoted or at worst taken out of context. haha. I was using hyperbole simply because the bad apple argument gets tossed around by many conservative movements whose ultimate goal is to block all spending on the apple orchard. Yet the close personal stories of kindness and all the good that gets done by these programs and the difference they make in people's lives goes untold in the process of griping over a few bad apples. I guess since the place you volunteer at is a non-profit every penny counts and you want to see it go to the most deserving or see it go as far as possible but still you gotta take some solace in doing good even when it's for those who don't do much good for themselves. My thing is, they're all pretty equally deserving regardless of bad money management or health habits. It's not like they're getting a new kidney. But I'll agree with you on a pack of cigarettes isn't asking too much from a person. They'd spend it elsewhere though. It's better to just give them the drug otherwise it'll never get bought. Keep fighting the good fight.

You should save this and open it 10 years from now after you work in healthcare a while. You'd be amazed what gets given out for free to adicts and the like, but the rest of us... oh we'll pay and if not our credit and family will pay.
 
You should save this and open it 10 years from now after you work in healthcare a while. You'd be amazed what gets given out for free to adicts and the like, but the rest of us... oh we'll pay and if not our credit and family will pay.

True, ideals are a young man's game. Since cynicism is the other extreme, hopefully I can manage to land somewhere in the middle that doesn't leave me whining about the way things are all the time or oblivious/in denial about the reality of the situation. You never know what you're gonna come out on the other end.
 
Subsidized or not, it's still a LOAN...I'm not arguing for people NOT to use loans, educational or home or other, or to NOT take tax credits, or to not take advantage of any government service if it is INTENDED for them specifically, not just because they TECHNICALLY (and TEMPORARILY) fall within a category.

You can TECHNICALLY just hand the keys to your house over to the bank, file for bankruptcy, and walk away, regardless of how much it was YOUR fault you defaulted on your mortgage. That doesn't mean you SHOULD just because you CAN.

Being a non-trad med school applicant doens't make you right either. But then again it's not about you being right, or me being right, it's about doing the right thing, and the right thing is NOT to stick your hand into the Salvation Army bucket because it's temporarily within reach.

Listen, I can point to a specific population of students I encountered in med school that used every single solitary penny of public assistance, in the form of Medicaid, foodstamps, WIC, and public housing. I knew these people quite well, as did my wife, and not a single one of them would pay (via loans, savings or any other source of money) for a service if there was some form of goverment assistance that covered that service.

This mentality is not a fluke; it's not widespred, but it's a very common practice among certain populations of students at medical schools around the country, and I have no qualms about singling out that population at MY school being comprised of Mormons. At other schools it may be other populations of students...I don't really care...I just know it's a relatively common practice.

I just don't think it's right, and neither do the rest of people--specifically, single med students and married couples in which one spouse works--who assume financial responsibility for their actions.

You are right in what you are saying, and I am also correct...We just have two slightly different views on the subject at hand. Yes you can walk away from a house (not saying you should), but I sure wouldn't say there are no strings attached to doing that! Yes just because you qualify for a program, does not mean that you should automatically take it...But at the same time if you need the help, you need it (whether you are a professional school student or not!). I will be the first to admit that I have no plans to go straight to the government for anything, but if times get hard (due to unplanned life events) I will definitely use government aid to assist me in my ultimate goal of becoming a doctor...I will not let my pride negatively affect my family, but I also do not want to be sucking off the federal teet for 8 years! These programs are good if you truely need them, but if you can manage without them, then you should not use them...
 
You are right in what you are saying, and I am also correct...We just have two slightly different views on the subject at hand. Yes you can walk away from a house (not saying you should), but I sure wouldn't say there are no strings attached to doing that! Yes just because you qualify for a program, does not mean that you should automatically take it...But at the same time if you need the help, you need it (whether you are a professional school student or not!). I will be the first to admit that I have no plans to go straight to the government for anything, but if times get hard (due to unplanned life events) I will definitely use government aid to assist me in my ultimate goal of becoming a doctor...I will not let my pride negatively affect my family, but I also do not want to be sucking off the federal teet for 8 years! These programs are good if you truely need them, but if you can manage without them, then you should not use them...

:thumbup:
 
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Most of those programs, I would point out, are meant to be temporary. If you qualify for foodstamps for 3 months while in between jobs, or while in school, then it's fairly likely that you actually need the foodstamps at that point in time. If you financially cannot care for yourself and the government offers a program to help, I don't see why you should turn it down just because your situation is "temporary." Most situations (barring disabilities) are temporary.

Further, when there is a child involved, I think that it is essential to provide that child with the best you can offer them. If that means you need foodstamps and medicaid while in med school, then that's what it means. Even though I could live on the bare minimum foodstuffs and no health insurance, I would never want to deprive a child of enough healthy food and doctor visits.

But the point is, when you're opting to go with food stamps rather than take out more loans, you are sucking dry these programs that are in place in order to help those who cannot take out loans.

I'd love to contribute more but I'm too tired
 
But the point is, when you're opting to go with food stamps rather than take out more loans, you are sucking dry these programs that are in place in order to help those who cannot take out loans.

I'd love to contribute more but I'm too tired

When will this myth cease to perpetuate in this thread?
 
Even if all medical students were on food stamps, WIC, and everything else you can apply for it would have little to no effect on those programs. There are simply too few of us to even matter when you have hundreds of thousands on these programs in every state.

I know at my current university many students get food stamps. The only thing needed to qualify is proof of half time employment, full time course load, student ID, and driver license. Sadly, I only know one person who really needs it, everyone else ... about 7 others I can name just use the saved money to quench that Thursday night "thirst". So... adding medical students to the pile would do little to the system that isn't already being done.
 
Even if all medical students were on food stamps, WIC, and everything else you can apply for it would have little to no effect on those programs. There are simply too few of us to even matter when you have hundreds of thousands on these programs in every state.

I know at my current university many students get food stamps. The only thing needed to qualify is proof of half time employment, full time course load, student ID, and driver license. Sadly, I only know one person who really needs it, everyone else ... about 7 others I can name just use the saved money to quench that Thursday night "thirst". So... adding medical students to the pile would do little to the system that isn't already being done.

You actually don't even need a job to qualify for foodstamps as a college student.
 
I will definitely use government aid to assist me in my ultimate goal of becoming a doctor...I will not let my pride negatively affect my family, but I also do not want to be sucking off the federal teet for 8 years! These programs are good if you truely need them, but if you can manage without them, then you should not use them...

Dont' confuse pride with princple, and though I wouldn't let anything get in the way of helping my family, I wouldn't intentionally & willfully place my family in a position that would compromise my principles.

You apply to medical school with the full knowledge of the financial obligation, and if you have a family you can't provide for in any way other than to rely on state subsidies for the poor and indigent, you are the one letting your pride interefere, harboring the mentality that your educational and life goals trump those of said programs, which include temporary relief for poor & lower class. The fact that so many other Americans adopt that same mentality isn't justification.

I have no pity...not one pittance of sympathy...for anyone attending medical school. People that use said programs have more pity for themselves than the general public would have on them.
 
Homeboy has his opinion and it seems to be more of a personal moral or a spiritual belief, which I respect. What I don't agree with is telling someone they are in the wrong for using a state program set up for the poor and indigent when they are poor. I especially don’t agree with calling out a specific religious group. I have many colleagues and friends who are Mormon and they don't drink alcohol. That is their belief. They would never tell me I am in the wrong because I have a drink of wine every once in a while. I have catholic friends that don't use birth control. That is their belief as well. Not once have they ever told me I am in the wrong for using birth control with my wife. Homeboy, that is great that you would never use food stamps because you don't consider yourself poor or indigent and you definitely don't consider yourself in a "lower class". I respect your belief. But this soapbox tirade smacks of self-righteousness and elitism. And you really lost me when you called out the Mormons and blew off the opinions of some of the pre-meds on this thread. Some of my best friends from med school and my best current colleagues are Mormons. I consider med students, residents, and even pre-meds my colleagues. In the end we are all adults and we need to do what’s best for us and our families. Each situation is unique and none of us are in a position to judge what is best for someone else.
 
Homeboy has his opinion and it seems to be more of a personal moral or a spiritual belief, which I respect. What I don't agree with is telling someone they are in the wrong for using a state program set up for the poor and indigent when they are poor. I especially don't agree with calling out a specific religious group. I have many colleagues and friends who are Mormon and they don't drink alcohol. That is their belief. They would never tell me I am in the wrong because I have a drink of wine every once in a while. I have catholic friends that don't use birth control. That is their belief as well. Not once have they ever told me I am in the wrong for using birth control with my wife. Homeboy, that is great that you would never use food stamps because you don't consider yourself poor or indigent and you definitely don't consider yourself in a "lower class". I respect your belief. But this soapbox tirade smacks of self-righteousness and elitism. And you really lost me when you called out the Mormons and blew off the opinions of some of the pre-meds on this thread. Some of my best friends from med school and my best current colleagues are Mormons. I consider med students, residents, and even pre-meds my colleagues. In the end we are all adults and we need to do what's best for us and our families. Each situation is unique and none of us are in a position to judge what is best for someone else.

Oh please...don't put words in my mouth by insinuating I denounce or repudiate the "lower class"...my point in using such terminology was strictly to point out that anyone in medical school, regardless of background, cannot claim to be "lower class," nor will they ever be from that point forward save through their own ruin...the designation of "lower class" is not merely a financial pigeonhole...it is socioeconomic and subcultural.

I'm not saying there is never a single solitary instance in which a medical student would need to rely on state assistance; but such instances are undeniably rare.

I called out Mormons because, as I specifically stated, that was the group I was most familiar with, and suggested that every school inevitably has such populations. At my school, it happened to be Mormons.

How in the world does family "x" not using birth control and you not drinking wine have anything in the slightest to do with me calling out a mentality that uses foodstamps, et al, as a crutch? The former two are personal beliefs that reflect social or religious standards...the latter is pure convenience.

If defending my position using abstractions like "principle" makes me self-righteous, than I guess I'm self-righteous, and as is everyone else who holds their peers to standards they think should be upheld. I didn't open a thread chastising Mormons...I started by commenting on a MENTALITY that is distasteful, no matter who employs it and what justification they use, given the context of self-afflicted medical education and self-afflicted financial hardship.

It would be no different if the topic were socialized healthcare, fill in the blank with the issue de jour, any number of which can be viewed through the eyes of pragmatism & social / moral relativism, or through adherence to principles larger than one's self. The only problem is that the latter of these routes places expectations on people, and expectations are politically incorrect, unfair, and viewed as "self righteous" by those in the former group.

Listen, I don't really care to enter another tangential debate about ethics, social philosophy, or the Mormon faith, so I'll leave it at that.
 
Oh please...don't put words in my mouth by insinuating I denounce or repudiate the "lower class"...my point in using such terminology was strictly to point out that anyone in medical school, regardless of background, cannot claim to be "lower class," nor will they ever be from that point forward save through their own ruin...the designation of "lower class" is not merely a financial pigeonhole...it is socioeconomic and subcultural.

I'm not saying there is never a single solitary instance in which a medical student would need to rely on state assistance; but such instances are undeniably rare.

I called out Mormons because, as I specifically stated, that was the group I was most familiar with, and suggested that every school inevitably has such populations. At my school, it happened to be Mormons.

How in the world does family "x" not using birth control and you not drinking wine have anything in the slightest to do with me calling out a mentality that uses foodstamps, et al, as a crutch? The former two are personal beliefs that reflect social or religious standards...the latter is pure convenience.

If defending my position using abstractions like "principle" makes me self-righteous, than I guess I'm self-righteous, and as is everyone else who holds their peers to standards they think should be upheld. I didn't open a thread chastising Mormons...I started by commenting on a MENTALITY that is distasteful, no matter who employs it and what justification they use, given the context of self-afflicted medical education and self-afflicted financial hardship.

It would be no different if the topic were socialized healthcare, fill in the blank with the issue de jour, any number of which can be viewed through the eyes of pragmatism & social / moral relativism, or through adherence to principles larger than one's self. The only problem is that the latter of these routes places expectations on people, and expectations are politically incorrect, unfair, and viewed as "self righteous" by those in the former group.

Listen, I don't really care to enter another tangential debate about ethics, social philosophy, or the Mormon faith, so I'll leave it at that.

Unless the breadwinner in your family was murdered, or the US government accidentally dropped a bomb on your house, or there was some other distaster that happened TO you, EVERY FINANCIAL HARDSHIP IS SELF-AFFLICATED. You seem to think that everyone using food stamps is a victim in some way who has had some undue hardship placed on him/her. Newsflash - you're entirely wrong.
 
Unless the breadwinner in your family was murdered, or the US government accidentally dropped a bomb on your house, or there was some other distaster that happened TO you, EVERY FINANCIAL HARDSHIP IS SELF-AFFLICATED. You seem to think that everyone using food stamps is a victim in some way who has had some undue hardship placed on him/her. Newsflash - you're entirely wrong.

If you can't appreciate the difference between a highly educated, soon-to-be financially successful college grad with all but a written guarantee for career security...and an inner city highschool dropout working at Burger King raising 3 kids independently, than your analytical thinking skills need fine tuning. I don't care if that single mother is a crack addict with entitlement mentality, or genuinely working her @$$ off to make a better life for her kids, YOU, as one of the highest achievers (educationally and financially) in society, believe the community's tax dollars are just as equally yours. Sure...technically, they are...I don't deny that. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't discriminate between your situation and theirs, and ask yourself if highly educated soon-to-be professionals with "top 10%" income potential falls under the "poor and indigent" category because they can't find a bank willing to finance them beyond $60k.

Med students need social programs to subsidize their higher education...NOT to put food on their plate because they have no where else to turn.
 
Med students need social programs to subsidize their higher education...NOT to put food on their plate because they have no where else to turn.

We've been over this and I thought it was a closed issue. Whether you agree that med students should use financial assistance or not is a different issue, but I think the fact was well established that the budgets schools give are based upon one person. A single person can continue to take out more loans because they haven't maxed out. A student with a family starts maxed out. When they can't take out anymore loans, it ceases to be "subsidizing" their education when they receive government aid (again, whether or not they received it is a completely different issue, I just wish this could finally be put to rest before it gets rehashed).
 
A single person can continue to take out more loans because they haven't maxed out. A student with a family starts maxed out. When they can't take out anymore loans, it ceases to be "subsidizing" their education when they receive government aid (again, whether or not they received it is a completely different issue, I just wish this could finally be put to rest before it gets rehashed).

There is no law established by medical schools that forbids students from seeking loans through alternative means, as if you relinquish that ability by being a student.

If that were so, would the school forbid you from owing a vehicle that one has a loan for???
What about life insurance??
What about the mounds of undergraduate debt many students have??

Educational loans, yes. But the school is not the entity that determines what you can & cannot receive in non-educational loans...the bank/auto dealer/lender serves in that function.
 
Subsidized or not, it's still a LOAN...I'm not arguing for people NOT to use loans, educational or home or other, or to NOT take tax credits, or to not take advantage of any government service if it is INTENDED for them specifically, not just because they TECHNICALLY (and TEMPORARILY) fall within a category.

You can TECHNICALLY just hand the keys to your house over to the bank, file for bankruptcy, and walk away, regardless of how much it was YOUR fault you defaulted on your mortgage. That doesn't mean you SHOULD just because you CAN.

Being a non-trad med school applicant doens't make you right either. But then again it's not about you being right, or me being right, it's about doing the right thing, and the right thing is NOT to stick your hand into the Salvation Army bucket because it's temporarily within reach.

Listen, I can point to a specific population of students I encountered in med school that used every single solitary penny of public assistance, in the form of Medicaid, foodstamps, WIC, and public housing. I knew these people quite well, as did my wife, and not a single one of them would pay (via loans, savings or any other source of money) for a service if there was some form of goverment assistance that covered that service.

This mentality is not a fluke; it's not widespred, but it's a very common practice among certain populations of students at medical schools around the country, and I have no qualms about singling out that population at MY school being comprised of Mormons. At other schools it may be other populations of students...I don't really care...I just know it's a relatively common practice.

I just don't think it's right, and neither do the rest of people--specifically, single med students and married couples in which one spouse works--who assume financial responsibility for their actions.

Thanks Homeboy! You're a crack up! If only I could be as smart and enlightened as you.
And by the way, I'd appreciate it if you drop the profiling of assuming most of the married medical students who's spouses don't work are Mormon. That may be what you percieve, but if you don't have the data to back it up then it's best to shut your mouth. :)
 
There is no law established by medical schools that forbids students from seeking loans through alternative means, as if you relinquish that ability by being a student.

If that were so, would the school forbid you from owing a vehicle that one has a loan for???
What about life insurance??
What about the mounds of undergraduate debt many students have??

Educational loans, yes. But the school is not the entity that determines what you can & cannot receive in non-educational loans...the bank/auto dealer/lender serves in that function.

So they can take out a car loan to meet their budget? An "unemployed" person won't be getting a loan that's not an educational loan. Sure, they may get a car loan. Perhaps you could (honestly) educate any viewers of this thread, who may be in this situation, as to which loans are available for them that they will qualify for, since nothing has been mentioned, as of yet. If we start talking in specifics, then maybe there will be some here that can benefit being pointed in the right direction, so that they don't turn to government handouts. Win-win situation and I'm all for discussion.
 
Welfare was designed to provide people with temporary help when they are in need of it. It was not meant to support the "less fortunate" (aka lazy) people for a lifetime. It is for people like student doctors who will use the assistance to become more productive members of society. My husband and I plan to get food stamps, WIC, and any other assistance available. God knows that we have paid enough (in the past and will in the future) taxes to support these services. If we qualify to use them, why throw that money away? It sounds stupid.
 
So they can take out a car loan to meet their budget?

for god's sake i'm not saying take out a car loan to 'meet your budget'. my point with that example was that the school cannot determine how much DEBT you assume OUTSIDE the realm of educational loans.

the car loan was just an example of non-educational debt.

An "unemployed" person won't be getting a loan that's not an educational loan.
Says who?
Is there some law that says that?
You know for a fact no bank or other lender is going to loan you money?

If toyota is willing to let you assume the risk of a $15,000 vehicle, why wouldn't other financial institutions be willing to let you assume the risk of $15k for health insurance?

Let's say you take out ~$60k in loans...you're maxed by financial aid standards...roughly $40,000 of that in federal loans (sub and unsub)...nearly all of that goes towards paying your tuition.

You have $20k left. You can't provide for your family on $20k.

Is there a law that says you can't use that $20k to make monthly payments on a larger loan?

Perhaps that's too convoluted...perhaps that's just asking too much for someone to find their own way of securing the money necessary to fund their own education...

...but my entire point has been, and remains, that if you can find absolutely no other way in which to fund your medical education than through tax dollars aimed at "poor and indigent," than you have no business putting your family in such a position.

This contention that if you have the intelligence, drive and desire to attend medical school, that society should just heed your beck and call, buck up the funds to support you and your family, and be humbled that you would devote your life to the selfless service of medicine...is a complete farce.

People don't want to hear about how difficult and arduous your life is because you made the difficult decision to attend medical school...boo hoo for you...
 
Welfare was designed to provide people with temporary help when they are in need of it. It was not meant to support the "less fortunate" (aka lazy) people for a lifetime.

Welfare wasn't meant to be a lifetime entitlement, but nor was it designed to be a DESTINATION...a lifestyle target that people could assume any time they INTENTIONALLY put themselves in a situation that compromised their financial stability, particularly for the sake of education. Medical school is not guaranteed public education, and it most certainly is not something everybody can do, be it because that person doesn't have the pre-requisite education, the stamina, or the financial stability to assume the additional debt.


It is for people like student doctors who will use the assistance to become more productive members of society.

People don't want to hear your justification for earning $250,000 / year be your "long and difficult trip through medical school," your "mounds of debt," or how many hours you work. Everyone has had it rough...everyone is debt...everyone works their @$$e$ off...true, not everyone deals with life & death decisions on a daily basis, and for taking that risk, and all it entails, you have a stable job & considerable salary. But all that risk, and all that reward, you have brought upon yourself through deliberate intent, and if you can't own every aspect of it, you're no less asking for pity than the lazy bum on the corner asking for spare change.
 
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Welfare wasn't meant to be a lifetime entitlement, but nor was it designed to be a DESTINATION...a lifestyle target that people could assume any time they INTENTIONALLY put themselves in a situation that compromised their financial stability, particularly for the sake of education. Medical school is not guaranteed public education, and it most certainly is not something everybody can do, be it because that person doesn't have the pre-requisite education, the stamina, or the financial stability to assume the additional debt.




People don't want to hear your justification for earning $250,000 / year be your "long and difficult trip through medical school," your "mounds of debt," or how many hours you work. Everyone has had it rough...everyone is debt...everyone works their @$$e$ off...true, not everyone deals with life & death decisions on a daily basis, and for taking that risk, and all it entails, you have a stable job & considerable salary. But all that risk, and all that reward, you have brought upon yourself through deliberate intent, and if you can't own every aspect of it, you're no less asking for pity than the lazy bum on the corner asking for spare change.

If this really is your concern then why not donate 75% of your salary once you're an attending? Surely you don't need it. Contribute it to your favorite local charity. Then come back here and tell us how to live. The fact is that we could apply for food stamps and many of us will. I won't, but I also won't have to worry about supporting myself financially. My loans will be tuition only, but if any of my classmates decide to get assistance I won't care becasue I've seen it go to far worse. Medical students are achieving something and going to get off of welfare whereas most of the fine individuals I run into using it will be using it for life. From what I have seen, welfare is an enabler of sloths and because of that I would love to see it used on ambitious, young students.

In a year or two let us know how those donations are coming along.
 
If this really is your concern then why not donate 75% of your salary once you're an attending? Surely you don't need it. Contribute it to your favorite local charity. Then come back here and tell us how to live. The fact is that we could apply for food stamps and many of us will. I won't, but I also won't have to worry about supporting myself financially. My loans will be tuition only, but if any of my classmates decide to get assistance I won't care becasue I've seen it go to far worse. Medical students are achieving something and going to get off of welfare whereas most of the fine individuals I run into using it will be using it for life. From what I have seen, welfare is an enabler of sloths and because of that I would love to see it used on ambitious, young students.

In a year or two let us know how those donations are coming along.

Lol. Yea. When hell freezes over.
 
nor was it designed to be a DESTINATION...a lifestyle target that people could assume any time they INTENTIONALLY put themselves in a situation that compromised their financial stability, particularly for the sake of education.

So welfare is designed only for the people who you feel deserve it? :laugh: See, the thing is that the programs are designed for people who qualify for them. That's how they were created. If the government (or the general populous who vote for the elected officials) wanted to exclude certain groups, like medical students who may be making big bucks in a few years, they could. But they don't. If you satisfy the program's criteria, then the program is designed for you.

It seems a bit odd to me that you would condemn me for considering using welfare to subsidize my family and husband's education, but you don't seem to have a problem accepted subsidized government loans or the government subsidizing your college education. Why is that? You don't have to answer; it is a didactic question.

I would say that this is good economics. A physician is an invaluable asset to society. Money could hardly be better spent. Not only will the country get 10 fold back in tax money, but subsidizing the birth of our children and their subsequent care will lead to even more citizens who will likely contribute a disproportionate amount to the economy and society. (And gene pool!)
 
for god's sake i'm not saying take out a car loan to 'meet your budget'. my point with that example was that the school cannot determine how much DEBT you assume OUTSIDE the realm of educational loans.

the car loan was just an example of non-educational debt.


Says who?
Is there some law that says that?
You know for a fact no bank or other lender is going to loan you money?

If toyota is willing to let you assume the risk of a $15,000 vehicle, why wouldn't other financial institutions be willing to let you assume the risk of $15k for health insurance?

Let's say you take out ~$60k in loans...you're maxed by financial aid standards...roughly $40,000 of that in federal loans (sub and unsub)...nearly all of that goes towards paying your tuition.

You have $20k left. You can't provide for your family on $20k.

Is there a law that says you can't use that $20k to make monthly payments on a larger loan?

Perhaps that's too convoluted...perhaps that's just asking too much for someone to find their own way of securing the money necessary to fund their own education...

...but my entire point has been, and remains, that if you can find absolutely no other way in which to fund your medical education than through tax dollars aimed at "poor and indigent," than you have no business putting your family in such a position.

This contention that if you have the intelligence, drive and desire to attend medical school, that society should just heed your beck and call, buck up the funds to support you and your family, and be humbled that you would devote your life to the selfless service of medicine...is a complete farce.

People don't want to hear about how difficult and arduous your life is because you made the difficult decision to attend medical school...boo hoo for you...

Can we stick to one issue? Here is the only thing I am debating: there's always more aid via loans available to medical students. That's it, so I'd appreciate if you wouldn't lump me into a strawman argument.

A student can apply for private, non-educational loans. This is true. On the flip side, so can anyone else. The fact that anyone can apply does not mean that anyone can be accepted. Sans educational loans, all other loans look for people who can pay them off, and generally go into repayment immediately. Nobody is going to lend to someone who is "unemployed" (since this is not an educational loan, that's what you're listed as) who is taking out the loan for living expenses. If they're taking out the loan for living expenses, there's no way they're going to make the monthly payments, which is why loans only make sense when they're educational and thus deferrable.

So, yes, you are completely correct that the school sets the limit for educational loans only and will not/cannot regulate any other debt sources. This fact, however, does not assume that, by default, students will receive these loans, especially being unemployed, having no income, and not being able to make the minimum payments since they are taking out the loan for that specific purpose. Perhaps they could get a co-signer, but that still doesn't qualify anyone that I know of.

If you could please address my issues without resorting to attacking a strawman of throwing this on the tax payer's back, I'd appreciate it. When you demonstrate that aid is available to all medical students to pay for their expenses/families then I'll leave so you can finish out the debate with everyone else on what government assistance is for.
 
Homeboy, have you taken out government subsidized loans or ever gone to a public school? Then get off your high horse about not taking public assistance to fund your education because you already have. Who do you think subsidized those loans and funded those public schools? The taxpayers. If you really wanted to assume all of the responsibility yourself you would have gone only to private schools (for elementary, high school, college, and medical school) and you or your parents would have taken out private loans to cover the costs. It's convenient that you draw the line at what amount of government assistance is ok right at the point you chose to use it.

We as a nation, whether an individual agrees with it or not, have chosen to provide assistance to those who are poor, temporary or otherwise, and medical students definitely qualify under those standards. As pointed out above, you've already decided to take advantage of that assistance, so you have no right to bash anyone who has in different ways than you. They're different from you and have different circumstances. If, because of government assistant, a family is able to have a child or two while in school and ends up raising four contributing members to society instead of two, I'd say that was a wise investment of our tax dollars.

Besides, assisting in the training of a physician makes GREAT economic sense as there's a definite positive externality associated with medical training: there is additional benefit to society that is not experienced by the individual. If the government didn't assist, there would be an even worse shortage as costs faced by potential physicians would exceed perceived individual benefit and fewer would choose to undergo medical training. This is the exact same reason that we subsidize the education of MD/PhD's. I'm curious, do you think that's wrong too? Should they turn down funding and take out private loans to fund their education because they'll earn a good income some day? Give me a break.

I bear you no ill-will, I just find it frustrating when people jump on others for doing something they themselves have been doing all along. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Edit: I just realized that I said essentially the same thing as Happy Wife. Great minds think alike I guess, ;).
 
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Homeboy, have you taken out government subsidized loans or ever gone to a public school? Then get off your high horse about not taking public assistance to fund your education because you already have. Who do you think subsidized those loans and funded those public schools? The taxpayers. If you really wanted to assume all of the responsibility yourself you would have gone only to private schools (for elementary, high school, college, and medical school) and you or your parents would have taken out private loans to cover the costs. It's convenient that you draw the line at what amount of government assistance is ok right at the point you chose to use it.

We as a nation, whether an individual agrees with it or not, have chosen to provide assistance to those who are poor, temporary or otherwise, and medical students definitely qualify under those standards. As pointed out above, you've already decided to take advantage of that assistance, so you have no right to bash anyone who has in different ways than you. They're different from you and have different circumstances. If, because of government assistant, a family is able to have a child or two while in school and ends up raising four contributing members to society instead of two, I'd say that was a wise investment of our tax dollars.

Besides, assisting in the training of a physician makes GREAT economic sense as there's a definite positive externality associated with medical training: there is additional benefit to society that is not experienced by the individual. If the government didn't assist, there would be an even worse shortage as costs faced by potential physicians would exceed perceived individual benefit and fewer would choose to undergo medical training. This is the exact same reason that we subsidize the education of MD/PhD's. I'm curious, do you think that's wrong too? Should they turn down funding and take out private loans to fund their education because they'll earn a good income some day? Give me a break.

I bear you no ill-will, I just find it frustrating when people jump on others for doing something they themselves have been doing all along. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Edit: I just realized that I said essentially the same thing as Happy Wife. Great minds think alike I guess, ;).

:thumbup:
 
Homeboy, have you taken out government subsidized loans or ever gone to a public school? Then get off your high horse about not taking public assistance to fund your education because you already have. Who do you think subsidized those loans and funded those public schools? The taxpayers. If you really wanted to assume all of the responsibility yourself you would have gone only to private schools (for elementary, high school, college, and medical school) and you or your parents would have taken out private loans to cover the costs. It's convenient that you draw the line at what amount of government assistance is ok right at the point you chose to use it.

We as a nation, whether an individual agrees with it or not, have chosen to provide assistance to those who are poor, temporary or otherwise, and medical students definitely qualify under those standards. As pointed out above, you've already decided to take advantage of that assistance, so you have no right to bash anyone who has in different ways than you. They're different from you and have different circumstances. If, because of government assistant, a family is able to have a child or two while in school and ends up raising four contributing members to society instead of two, I'd say that was a wise investment of our tax dollars.

Besides, assisting in the training of a physician makes GREAT economic sense as there's a definite positive externality associated with medical training: there is additional benefit to society that is not experienced by the individual. If the government didn't assist, there would be an even worse shortage as costs faced by potential physicians would exceed perceived individual benefit and fewer would choose to undergo medical training. This is the exact same reason that we subsidize the education of MD/PhD's. I'm curious, do you think that's wrong too? Should they turn down funding and take out private loans to fund their education because they'll earn a good income some day? Give me a break.

I bear you no ill-will, I just find it frustrating when people jump on others for doing something they themselves have been doing all along. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Edit: I just realized that I said essentially the same thing as Happy Wife. Great minds think alike I guess, ;).
:thumbup:

But I will be back to see Homeboy kick that dead horse a couple more times later!
 
Can we stick to one issue? Here is the only thing I am debating: there's always more aid via loans available to medical students. That's it, so I'd appreciate if you wouldn't lump me into a strawman argument.

This is getting ridiculously redundant...I've admitted to that multiple times: medical schools set the max loan limit you can receive through the FIN AID dept, and that limit is generally based on single living status.

Who cares??? How many times do I have to admit to that?

NO ONE EVER SAID THERE WERE MORE LOANS AVAILABLE THROUGH THE FIN AID DEPT FOR MARRIED COUPLES.

The personal example I gave was that I had to take out an additional $5k for health insurance my first year...I was married, but my wife WORKED, so I didn't have to max my loans, but the point is, I took out a LOAN for HEALTH INSURANCE RATHER than assuming the role of the lowly poor medical student. Relatively speaking, in terms of PAYING for one's health insurance, I PAID for mine with a LOAN rather than having it HANDED to me FREE OF CHARGE.

My contention has been, still is, and always will be, that the FIN AID dept doesn't prevent you from assuming more debt OUTSIDE the realm of educational fin aid, and if you can't do that, tough cookies.

No strawman here...just your insipid redundancy.
 
My contention has been, still is, and always will be, that the FIN AID dept doesn't prevent you from assuming more debt OUTSIDE the realm of educational fin aid, and if you can't do that, tough cookies.

Awesome. So now, finally, we can agree that the idea is erroneous that med students (Mormons) have access to more financial aid (be it educational or other) that they're denying in favor of government aid.

If you'd like to extend the debate about whether or not students will qualify for additional non-educational loans, then I'd suggest you point everyone in the direction of these banks, lenders, and loans, because I know many people would like to know. I'd like to be wrong, but if you can't show otherwise I'm left to assume this is not the case.
 
Homeboy, have you taken out government subsidized loans or ever gone to a public school? Then get off your high horse about not taking public assistance to fund your education because you already have. Who do you think subsidized those loans and funded those public schools? The taxpayers. If you really wanted to assume all of the responsibility yourself you would have gone only to private schools (for elementary, high school, college, and medical school) and you or your parents would have taken out private loans to cover the costs. It's convenient that you draw the line at what amount of government assistance is ok right at the point you chose to use it.

We as a nation, whether an individual agrees with it or not, have chosen to provide assistance to those who are poor, temporary or otherwise, and medical students definitely qualify under those standards. As pointed out above, you've already decided to take advantage of that assistance, so you have no right to bash anyone who has in different ways than you. They're different from you and have different circumstances. If, because of government assistant, a family is able to have a child or two while in school and ends up raising four contributing members to society instead of two, I'd say that was a wise investment of our tax dollars.

If the government didn't assist, there would be an even worse shortage as costs faced by potential physicians would exceed perceived individual benefit and fewer would choose to undergo medical training. This is the exact same reason that we subsidize the education of MD/PhD's. I'm curious, do you think that's wrong too? Should they turn down funding and take out private loans to fund their education because they'll earn a good income some day? Give me a break.

I bear you no ill-will, I just find it frustrating when people jump on others for doing something they themselves have been doing all along. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Edit: I just realized that I said essentially the same thing as Happy Wife. Great minds think alike I guess, ;).

FYI, I attended private schools up to college (and my family was by no means "well off," my dad being a PA in town of 1500 and my mother staying at home), and I joined the military at 17, which paid for every last DIME of my college education. So I'm afraid your assumption falls a little short. Every penny of debt I've assumed, I've taken responisibility for, and the only subsidized federal loans I have are the same ones available to every other medical student.

I never argued against government assistance PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD, in the correct context, and I've repeated myself so many times it's getting rather ridiculous.

Whether it's educational loans, home loans, tax credits, first-time homebuyer credits, whatever...properly understood, that's fine...I haven't argued against any of those entities. I've never argued against the PROGRAMS...I've argued against the pathetic bums that use them as an excuse not to assume more debt, or because they place their individual goals above all else.

I've also argued against is people using government programs outside the context of their intent, and I don't care how many times you recite the technical qualifications for medicaid, WIC, and foodstamps, I don't believe "soon to be physicians" fits that category.


Subsidized federal loans are still LOANS, and are available to every single medical student, single or married, whether your parents are "wealthy" or not. If the govt would increase the allowance of unsubsidized (or subsidized for that matter) loans to married couples, I'd be all for it, but I doubt the people getting medicaid/WIC/foodstamps would, because they receive such items FREE now, and increased loan allowance would mean more debt.

That's an interesting question...if the level of subsidized loans allowable by the govt or private lenders vis a vis the fin aid dept went UP, say $15k...would that eliminate people from using public assistance aimed at the poor and indigent?


Besides, assisting in the training of a physician makes GREAT economic sense as there's a definite positive externality associated with medical training: there is additional benefit to society that is not experienced by the individual.

If you're going to use economics terms, and if we're talking about 'benefit to society,' wouldn't it be cheaper for society if it didn't have to subzidize the living of medical students with families? If single medical students consume less in public assistance, and less in loans, isn't that a positive externality?
Why should we place equal value in medical students who can't provide for themselves other than through public assistance?

Society is going to benefit from the training of doctors whether student "A" (married with 3 kids) or student "B" (single or married with working spouse) is accepted to medical school, but it's going to benefit more (economically speaking) with student "B".
 
If you'd like to extend the debate about whether or not students will qualify for additional non-educational loans, then I'd suggest you point everyone in the direction of these banks, lenders, and loans, because I know many people would like to know. I'd like to be wrong, but if you can't show otherwise I'm left to assume this is not the case.

I can guarantee you the odds of such people existing are much higher than the odds of such people NOT existing, even if my case series has an N of 3 (as it does). I know for a fact 3 such people existed in my class of 212. ...I can't imagine the 3 people I knew were the ONLY 3 people in the entire school, state and country doing this. So no, I don't think it "erroneous" to assume that such people exist, Mormon or other.

I could care less about which banks or financial institutions will lend to maxed out med students with families...that's their problem, and if they can't solve it, they shouldn't be putting their family in the position of relying on said programs.
 
I've never argued against the PROGRAMS...I've argued against the pathetic bums that use them as an excuse not to assume more debt, or because they place their individual goals above all else.

I could care less about which banks or financial institutions will lend to maxed out med students with families...that's their problem, and if they can't solve it, they shouldn't be putting their family in the position of relying on said programs.

I think these two quotes demonstrate a couple of things:

1) Your assumption that so many of these people are taking government assistance when they could be taking out more loans (private or otherwise)
2) That you don't know about said loans actually existing that are available to these people

Do you see where I'm having trouble here?
 
FYI, I attended private schools up to college (and my family was by no means "well off," my dad being a PA in town of 1500 and my mother staying at home), and I joined the military at 17, which paid for every last DIME of my college education. So I'm afraid your assumption falls a little short. Every penny of debt I've assumed, I've taken responisibility for, and the only subsidized federal loans I have are the same ones available to every other medical student.

Sorry, bud, but you didn't pay for college, the government did. Where do you think the money the military used to pay for it came from? You may have worked for them for a few years, but you still received public assistance afterwards when they payed ALL of your college tuition. I really have no problem with you other than the fact that you feel the need to say everybody who takes assistance in any other way than you did is inferior to you. You accepted a LOT of government assistance, buddy, through subsidized loans and college tuition payments, and you have no right to tell anyone else off.
 
I would say that this is good economics. A physician is an invaluable asset to society. Money could hardly be better spent. Not only will the country get 10 fold back in tax money, but subsidizing the birth of our children and their subsequent care will lead to even more citizens who will likely contribute a disproportionate amount to the economy and society. (And gene pool!)

:eyebrow:

Seriously? A wee bit narcissistic, don't you think?
 
Is it worth asking about scholarships? I know they aren't a sure thing like welfare or help out quite as much as these guaranteed private loans that homeboy seems to be in favor of but they sure look a lot better on the old residency application.

So let me get the record straight here, if you're on welfare then you're a bum? Unless of course you're a medical student with a family, in which case you deserve welfare. I totally get it. All of the disabled people are actually just lazy. Everyone is willfully unemployed, people don't get fired and can't find a job. That's a myth perpetuated by rich welfare recipients.
 
Sorry, bud, but you didn't pay for college, the government did. Where do you think the money the military used to pay for it came from? You may have worked for them for a few years, but you still received public assistance afterwards when they payed ALL of your college tuition. I really have no problem with you other than the fact that you feel the need to say everybody who takes assistance in any other way than you did is inferior to you. You accepted a LOT of government assistance, buddy, through subsidized loans and college tuition payments, and you have no right to tell anyone else off.

Really??? The GI Bill was "public assistance"? The hell it was 'buddy.' That money wasn't free..it came with an 8-years-of-my-life service obligation...it wasn't a HANDOUT...it was EARNED with service to the country, tough guy.

You're damn right I had the government pay for my tuition... in return for the decade of my life in the Army, not for sitting on my @$$ and feeling sorry for myself because I have a wife and 3 kids and expect the community to fund my living expenses while I train to be a physician.
 
Really??? The GI Bill was "public assistance"? The hell it was 'buddy.' That money wasn't free..it came with an 8-years-of-my-life service obligation...it wasn't a HANDOUT...it was EARNED with service to the country, tough guy.

You're damn right I had the government pay for my tuition... in return for the decade of my life in the Army, not for sitting on my @$$ and feeling sorry for myself because I have a wife and 3 kids and expect the community to fund my living expenses while I train to be a physician.

You made that choice and it came with some known benefits like the GI bill. Nothing wrong with that, but don't try and shove that "I served and you didn't" crap in our faces. That was your choice and it's a choice that nearly everyone can have. It's a very brave and honorable decision and I respect that, but not all of us feel that the military is our calling.

The fact is that govt. has it's hands in so many things that no matter what we do we most likely use government services daily without even thinking about it. Parks, roads, stadiums, all levels of school, even the gas in our car, the food we eat, and meds we take have had the government's influence. Welfare is just another program they offer and it has rules and regs that if someone qualifies then they are eligible. If you don't like it, write your local members of congress and ask for a change.
 
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