Living on student loans with a stay-at-home spouse?

[Happy Wife]

Really??? The GI Bill was "public assistance"? The hell it was 'buddy.' That money wasn't free..it came with an 8-years-of-my-life service obligation...it wasn't a HANDOUT...it was EARNED with service to the country, tough guy.

You're damn right I had the government pay for my tuition... in return for the decade of my life in the Army, not for sitting on my @$$ and feeling sorry for myself because I have a wife and 3 kids and expect the community to fund my living expenses while I train to be a physician.

I would love to hear how you earned it.

The GI Bill is the greatest welfare program this country has ever seen.

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[MDub1]

I didn't mean any disrespect, Homeboy, I really didn't. I totally respect the what you did for our country and can't imagine what you must have sacrificed. My only point is that you've accepted government assistance, and you know what, I'm glad that you did! I think it's great that you got your college paid for in return for what you did (and speaking of positive externalities, there's few better examples than military service). I just wish you would recognize that we all get taxpayer assistance, yourself included, and to not look down on others who choose to get it in ways you've chosen not to. I respect the fact that you decided to not use Foodstamps, WIC, etc. That's what you felt was right for you and that's wonderful. But don't condemn others because they choose to take advantage of those programs that they qualify for just as you've taken advantage of some of those for which you've qualified (subsidized loans, military funding, etc).

Once again, I respect you and your choices, I just don't think it's any of our places to judge others' decisions when we don't understand their circumstances .

 

[Happy Wife]

Seriously? A wee bit narcissistic, don't you think?

It's no secret that the intelligent, hard-working professionals are having fewer children than the degenerates. Since I don't see the state stepping in anytime soon to stop these regressors, we have to look for other ways to combat dysgenic trends.

 

[Happy Wife]

Society is going to benefit from the training of doctors whether student "A" (married with 3 kids) or student "B" (single or married with working spouse) is accepted to medical school, but it's going to benefit more (economically speaking) with student "B".

I think society would most often benefit most from the most qualified person becoming a doctor, whether he/she has a spouse and children or not.

 

[mechanictodr]

Have you seen Idiocracy? The fact that we have few children will be our downfall. The president in that movie is great.

 

[creativename]

Really??? The GI Bill was "public assistance"? The hell it was 'buddy.' That money wasn't free..it came with an 8-years-of-my-life service obligation...it wasn't a HANDOUT...it was EARNED with service to the country, tough guy.

You're damn right I had the government pay for my tuition... in return for the decade of my life in the Army, not for sitting on my @$$ and feeling sorry for myself because I have a wife and 3 kids and expect the community to fund my living expenses while I train to be a physician.

Mechanic has a point. Not about the Army thing, I wouldn't dare compare the GI bill to receiving money for economic hardship. They're not the same. One comes from one department of the government and the other a completely different department of the government. It's like saying an employee that works for a company wouldn't get his money the same way a thief that steals from that company would. That major difference aside, you fail to see the slight similarities in your situation and theirs. Whereas you were given a bonus for college, the students that use public assistance are given a bonus with no strings attached and you both win! It's not like you did anything that they didn't, oh wait IT IS like that. They compare everything to their situation as if there's some overlapping hypocrisy that you're missing. The bigger picture of what you're saying these programs are designed to do isn't important to them. All that matters is that they get theirs. They've actually been using the relative argument that since the programs get abused by the dregs of society then it's ok for them because they're going to be doctors. Then there was that comparison between subsidized student loans and government public assistance. Classic. Because we all know that you have to pay back TANF money just like a student loan. I'm sure they'll use the argument that they pay it back in taxes. Yet again one hand washes the other and they end up with this mentality of being the only ones paying taxes and everyone else on welfare doesn't deserve to be. Just because the end result appears to cancel out the initial burden doesn't mean it all worked out.

I mean, I don't disagree with them that they should use the money if they qualify but I hate the supportive arguments they're using to justify it. It's like, could these people just admit that it should only be as a last resort and stop trying to make it socially acceptable to be on welfare when there are other means to get by. It doesn't matter what you say to them, all the reasons they have given are flimsy at best except one and that's the fact that TANF is there for people who need it without exception to students. Pure and simple, you don't have to bend reason to fit your purpose.

Like it or not the government is going to give students this money and they will buy essential life sustaining goods like songs off of itunes and yet some will be irresponsible with it by frittering it away on things that make their kids happy thereby creating a joyful childhood for them. It pains me to think of the latter happening with my tax dollars.

 

[creativename]

Have you seen Idiocracy? The fact that we have few children will be our downfall. The president in that movie is great.

I forgot to mention in my last post that i agreed with you about how government is involved in our everyday lives in some way or another. Thankfully it's mostly in regard to safety standards and regulations and national security.

I too loved the president, especially for his strict stance on gun control. When firing into a crowd of adoring fans always fire an even number of rounds to each side while thrusting your hips for good measure and showmanship.

All my post from earlier is meant to point out is that there's a million different ways we can look at this issue. And personally I think the pro-welfare stay-at-home spouse side seems the slight winner but the reasons given, granted many are just flagrant attacks against homeboy, are misguided and flawed in their various forms.

 

[homeboy]

You made that choice and it came with some known benefits like the GI bill. Nothing wrong with that, but don't try and shove that "I served and you didn't" crap in our faces. That was your choice and it's a choice that nearly everyone can have. It's a very brave and honorable decision and I respect that, but not all of us feel that the military is our calling.

The fact is that govt. has it's hands in so many things that no matter what we do we most likely use government services daily without even thinking about it. Parks, roads, stadiums, all levels of school, even the gas in our car, the food we eat, and meds we take have had the government's influence. Welfare is just another program they offer and it has rules and regs that if someone qualifies then they are eligible. If you don't like it, write your local members of congress and ask for a change.

Yes I made that choice, and it came with known benefits--that's exactly what I said. IT WAS ACCOMPANIED WITH KNOWN BENEFITS, and wasn't a HANDOUT on par with welfare. Welfare asks nothing in return...the GI bill does & tuition assistance DOES. That's my entire point. I never turned this into an "i served and you didn't argument,' YOU did.
I only contested the idiotic notion of equating the financial benefits of military service to welfare programs.

Military benefits are forms of compensation for service, not handouts.

 

[mechanictodr]

I agree... welfare is handouts. So is the 1st time home buyer rebate (used it last year... it was sweet), the cash for clunkers program, and all sorts of other things the govt does. If you qualify, you can get them. Don't get upset at people for using things they pay for in taxes if they already qualify for them.

Again, don't like it then call your local members of congress.

 

[deleted128562]

Just to play Devil's advocate here, I'm pretty sure that grants are handouts too, no? I know I've received some (not a lot, but some) grant money for medical school, and I'd guess 95% of college students and most med students who aren't having school paid for by mommy and daddy receive some sort of grants.

So then the question becomes - why do some look down on medical students for taking government handouts in the form of food stamps or WIC, but no one seems bothered when they take government handouts in the form of grants? Couldn't one make the argument that grants are educational welfare?

 

[creativename]

Just to play Devil's advocate here, I'm pretty sure that grants are handouts too, no? I know I've received some (not a lot, but some) grant money for medical school, and I'd guess 95% of college students and most med students who aren't having school paid for by mommy and daddy receive some sort of grants.

So then the question becomes - why do some look down on medical students for taking government handouts in the form of food stamps or WIC, but no one seems bothered when they take government handouts in the form of grants? Couldn't one make the argument that grants are educational welfare?

That's a good point to mention. Grants are a pretty diverse category of financial aid. If we are speaking of those grants solely designed to help out students without sufficient financial means, I would imagine the concern stems from the very point that the sole purpose of this educational grant money would be to provide for students with a disadvantaged economic status whereas food stamps and the like were designed with anyone below a set income in mind. Ideally this argument would hold water but this is hardly the case as you look even deeper at available grants and their stipulations not being solely based upon an applicant's economic background.

Some see it as abuse of the system when students creep over into the general impoverished population's stash when theoretically there are grants for this purpose. But another way of looking at it as I believe you are suggesting is that regardless of the agency doling out the money, it's still coming from the same pile. Sometimes though grants are set up by a NGO. But still, from that point of view, when it is the government's funds separate stashes don't really exist.

I guess the bigger issue I have is, why aren't the welfare students qualifying for greater grant assistance? I don't want to automatically assume a lack of effort is to blame. I would go as far as to say that those really pulling the strings are in favor of the student loan system currently in place and have no interest providing any more grant awards than the number or amount they are already limiting it to per year. As you mentioned, you received very little money from your grant. The amounts being provided aren't actually to reduce your borrowed amount, they're to increase your student loan refund check that will be applied to your living expenses budget.

 

[WhyTheFace]

HomeBoy, you need to just stop man.

You sound like an idiot. And its taking Pre Meds to put you in your place.

Act your age and get on with life.

If people are taking out loans, assistance, etc...its their business. We will all pay plenty of tax in our life to afford a piece of it if we so choose...ESPECIALLY those who have a child at home.

It is very immature, and ignorant of you to call out mothers for wanting to stay at home to raise their kids. Your prejudice may be ok in whatever backwards town you are from, but its time to grow up.

Thanks for playing, you obviously loose.

 

[CATrtb]

My wife does work, she is just not compensated. She has a more than full time job of being a stay-at-home mother. She is not going to work just so she can pay a daycare bill. I would love to just take out loans that we need. I do not want assistance, but the schools limit the amount you can borrow. In this financial market we are in, there will be no banks that will loan you over your COA. COA's were built for single people. I planned to have kids before I planned to go to medical school. I don't buy the "if you can't afford med school then you shouldn't go" argument. If the COA's were more streamlined for non-trads (who are gaining acceptance in increasing numbers) then they would not have to take government assistance and we would not be having this conversation. The school's reasoning of "we are not here to support your family" is a dated, discriminatory, and stupid argument.

Without going to the government for assistance, tell me where I can get a loan. I honestly would like to know. This is what I have been searching for in these forums and on the internet for weeks now with no answers.

 

[ShyRem]

It is possible to make it. But you have to be very frugal. No eating out, no vacations. No cable TV. Choose either a house phone or a cell phone. Internet service, however, is a must. Cut out car loans - get one that is paid for. Learn to do your own home repairs. And learn to live in a small space for a while. Your kids may have to share bedrooms, you may be sleeping in the living room hide-a-bed. Buy on sale, use coupons, get a chest freezer and buy meat from the farmer (it's much cheaper and better for you). Grow a garden. Bike when possible to save on gas. Is it gonna suck? probably. Or it could be a lot of fun. Learn to do your own car repairs if you don't already - a good book is $25 and the parts are about half what the garage charges. Not to mention you'll be saving $75-80 an hour on labor. If you like your Starbucks, get a $100 cappuccino machine and make your own. Bring your lunch to school. And no, you can't afford to go out for a beer with your fellow single students. Hide the credit cards.

So, can you afford to have a stay at home spouse and go to school on loans alone? Sure. And even if your spouse worked, you would probably qualify for medicaid for the kids unless they made some ridiculous salary like $100K/yr. Heck, my husband works (at a pretty decent job) and if his job didn't offer health insurance we would probably qualify for medicaid. It's telling when your tax refund is more than you paid in for the year.

Bottom line: it depends. If you can be frugal and stand living like students for a while, yes you can do it. If your spouse likes to shop, if you have expensive tastes, if you like your vacations, can't stay away from restaurants, can't figure out how to entertain the kids without buying them stuff, like a new car, only buy brand name, want brand new clothes for the kids rather than second hand, then no you can't afford to be a med student with a family unless you're independently wealthy.

 

[deleted128562]

My wife does work, she is just not compensated. She has a more than full time job of being a stay-at-home mother. She is not going to work just so she can pay a daycare bill. I would love to just take out loans that we need. I do not want assistance, but the schools limit the amount you can borrow. In this financial market we are in, there will be no banks that will loan you over your COA. COA's were built for single people. I planned to have kids before I planned to go to medical school. I don't buy the "if you can't afford med school then you shouldn't go" argument. If the COA's were more streamlined for non-trads (who are gaining acceptance in increasing numbers) then they would not have to take government assistance and we would not be having this conversation. The school's reasoning of "we are not here to support your family" is a dated, discriminatory, and stupid argument.

Without going to the government for assistance, tell me where I can get a loan. I honestly would like to know. This is what I have been searching for in these forums and on the internet for weeks now with no answers.

Very true about a working spouse - my wife stays home with our kids and everyone questions us as to why. One of the main reasons is that if she worked, the majority of her paycheck would go to daycare. I still work part time (very minimally) to supplement our income and that's working out well for now. Obviously once 3rd year hits we'll have to figure something else out.

I'm also with you on frustration with COA's being built for single people only. This is 2010 not 1950. If I could even borrow an extra 5-10K per year I'd be good to go. And in the scheme of what we're already borrowing that isn't that huge. Funny that my school and/or the government can't stomach the idea of allowing an extra 5K for families, yet they have no problems charging me 6X that much for 1 year of tuition.

 

[homeboy]

HomeBoy, you need to just stop man.

You sound like an idiot. And its taking Pre Meds to put you in your place.

Act your age and get on with life.

If people are taking out loans, assistance, etc...its their business. We will all pay plenty of tax in our life to afford a piece of it if we so choose...ESPECIALLY those who have a child at home.

It is very immature, and ignorant of you to call out mothers for wanting to stay at home to raise their kids. Your prejudice may be ok in whatever backwards town you are from, but its time to grow up.

Thanks for playing, you obviously loose.

Well, you certainly did show me.

Glad you could bring some coherent and intelligent thought to the discussion! It always adds to your rationale when you can claim "victory" in a rhetorical argument and simply deem the opposite view "idiotic," "immature," and "ignorant", rather than utilize just a fraction of what little mental capital you have at your disposal to expound your position.

But thank you for trying.

 

[FunctL Analysis]

If I could even borrow an extra 5-10K per year I'd be good to go. And in the scheme of what we're already borrowing that isn't that huge. Funny that my school and/or the government can't stomach the idea of allowing an extra 5K for families, yet they have no problems charging me 6X that much for 1 year of tuition.

One possible way to go around that would be to have somebody
sign off a statement that you are "paying" monthly childcare fee to him/her, with the amount of how ever much $$$ you need extra to support your family monthly and submit that statement to the school's financial aid office.
I had one of my family member who was my child's "caregiver" sign me such statement and took out 5-6k / yr in loans, which were essentially qualified for 'childcare expense'.
I do not know if all schools allow this, but at least mine did.

 

[CATrtb]

I talked to a few different people at my financial aid office. There is no exceptions to the COA. According to them "the federal government limtis the amount of money loaned to a student for living to that of a single person." The say they absolutley cannot go over. Funny how tuition increases 2K-3K a year and the COA goes up 2K-3K a year, yet it does not go up for living allowances. There are also no private loans out there.

I have decided that I will probably keep working weekends to make ends meet until we sell our house. I will probably use the money we have saved so far and cash out my 401k to pay off credit cards and cars.

I know, a financial advisor's head would explode at the horror of cashing out a 401k with the big tax penalty. I have decided it will be loan to myself. Just something to payback with interest when I'm done.

 

[ycal]

If a student is getting 25K in scholarships and 30K in loans, potentially, how much more can that student take out? Would it be the 25K? My husband and I are just trying to figure out if I'll be able to be a stay at home mom soon. We talked to the financial aid office, but they are of no real help. Thanks!

 

[hurdlepup]

I know this is an old thread, but I just discovered something.

My school refuses to give anyone more than enough loans for a single person. (Although single people can nickel and dime into a lot of debt though a certain process...) However, they WILL DIRECT YOU to welfare if for example you have a child, or stay at home spouse.

This has been a real pride killer for several of my classmates to have to do this. They did not want to, but ultimately have no other choice.

I am for removing the limits of what medical students can borrow, as reflected by only single, no-child students.

This homeboy character seems like he would be more at home working as a Faux news anchor or something. I hope to never meet him.

 

[clinicallabguy]

Has anybody ever had success at increasing the COA by going to the dean of students and asking for help?

I've got 2 kids, and a wife at home and I'm just about to finish my 1st year of med school. I'm at a school with a strict COA rule, but I've got an appointment with my advisory dean to see if there is anything that she can do. Despite repeated requests to increase the COA, financial aid shoots me down every time. I don't like going over peoples' heads, but after several denials I'm going to try it.

 

[ShyRem]

COA is COA. There is no increase for folks with families. Student loans are for the STUDENT, not the family. There may be an exception for day care costs, which you can generally get an increase for. But you may have to show receipts for your costs.

Now, that being said, I have heard in the past there have been private loans you can take out as a medical student. In looking for these, I find most have dried up.

 

[clinicallabguy]

COA is COA. There is no increase for folks with families. Student loans are for the STUDENT, not the family. There may be an exception for day care costs, which you can generally get an increase for. But you may have to show receipts for your costs.

Now, that being said, I have heard in the past there have been private loans you can take out as a medical student. In looking for these, I find most have dried up.

I got a private loan last year to cover the additional 5-10K a year for 4 years. However, it's no walk in the park. It's an adjustable rate, and at the rate it's growing it may overtake all of my federal loans while I'm in residency.

However, even with private loans you are supposedly obligated to disclose to your financial aid office the amount that you received so they can decrease the amount they award you so you don't go over COA. Who in their right mind would do that is another issue.

I'm under the impression that the purpose of the COA is to prevent excessive indebtedness of students. However, if students are forced to get private loans with higher interest rates because COA is insufficient then the COA is counterproductive. So I'm not buying that the COA is the COA, period. I may not succeed at getting it raised for myself, but I'm going to continue being outspoken about it. My fin aid department is going to receive an appeal for an increased COA from me regularly. We'll see if my dean of students can help me. I may be naive in thinking so, but I've got to try.

 

[CATrtb]

clinicallabguy let me know if this works. I definetley think there should be a graduated scale for COA limits, like the more dependents you have the higher the limits. This is the way everything else in our government works, why not for educational loans?

 

[LaLaLives]

I didn't save the article, but a few weeks ago I read of someone who did something similar. He cut waaaaaay back on expenses and managed to do a little investing along the way. Ultimately, he ended up not only living on a student budget, but also paid his debt off in less than half the time of his peers. If I can find the article, I'll come back and post it.

 

[LaLaLives]

Here's the article. Note that it's divided into multiple parts:

http://earlyretirementextreme.com/2...inancially-independent-in-5-years-part-i.html

 

[CATrtb]

Very interesting article, and there are some things I can take away from it, but this type of extreme living is unrealistic for a guy, his wife, and thier 3 small children. Especially when one is limited by a mortgage on a house that won't sell, a car payment, gas, car insurance, life insurance, medical insurance, medical bills, clothing for 5, eating for 5, , electricity for 5, water for 5. Yes there are things I can do to cut my food bill, electricity bill, clothing, and water bill, but in the grand scheme of things this does not amount to much. This cut would be a small percentage in the overall of money going out.

This dude lived in a dorm on grant money while working on a Phd.
I am talking about going to med school on capped out loans, with fixed debts/bills that nothing can be done about. If I was single I don't see doing what he did as so extreme.

Even If I did sell my house and found a place for my family that was within the COA allotment for rent, and I paid my car off, I still could not live within the COA. Medical insurance would eat me alive for 40% of my living expenses, then my rent, then my gas. Then how do I pay for water? electricity?...Then what do I eat? How do I buy clothes? My kid needs braces? I'm having unexplained car troubles? I have medical bills? Renters/Life/Car Insurance? etc...etc...etc...

Sorry If I seem to be venting/rambling, I know these things can be done, but I am just saying: More people takes more money. Period.