Loan forgiveness bill to include dentists

allantois

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What dentist is working on the frontline?
Also, you could forgive the loans of 20 nurses at the cost of forgiving 1 dentist. Not that I think there will be debt forgiveness. The government has burned close to 1 trillion in April alone.
 
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P7898

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If that passed for dentists it would be an outrage. The dentists that managed to payback $400k in loans would want all the money back that they paid for with interest. Sorry pal. I am on the Big Time Hoosier side. But yeah I could see payback of loans from nurses that are in the extreme trenches but at the same time - not rarely. When you sign up for healthcare professions, you know the risks of exposures. Just because someone comes into the office with active TB infection doesn't mean that everyone in that office should have their loans forgiven because they were "exposed". We are always exposed.
 
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Big Time Hoosier

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If that passed for dentists it would be an outrage. The dentists that managed to payback $400k in loans would want all the money back that they paid for with interest. Sorry pal. I am on the Big Time Hoosier side. But yeah I could see payback of loans from nurses that are in the extreme trenches but at the same time - not rarely. When you sign up for healthcare professions, you know the risks of exposures. Just because someone comes into the office with active TB infection doesn't mean that everyone in that office should have their loans forgiven because they were "exposed". We are always exposed.
Based on their post history, OP graduated from either USC or NYU in 2018. So, they likely still owe $500,000+. No wonder they want a bailout. Like you said about responsible borrowers, this video sums up one reason why blanket student loan forgiveness won’t happen.


Big Hoss
 
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David1991

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Based on their post history, OP graduated from either USC or NYU in 2018. So, they likely still owe $500,000+. No wonder they want a bailout. Like you said about responsible borrowers, this video sums up one reason why blanket student loan forgiveness won’t happen.


Big Hoss

Yup. I was very frustrated when I first saw this video. She's so patronizing. How about everyone who was responsible and paid off their loans while their reckless friends partied and went on extravagant vacations...
 

Kobethegoat24

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Lol people can keep crying, I'm gonna sign the petition. This weird mentality of I paid hundreds of thousands in loans so others should too is such a weird argument. Sign the petition people, never accept that people should pay 200k+ for an education

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NITRAS

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Lol people can keep crying, I'm gonna sigh the petition. This weird mentality of I paid hundreds of thousands in loans so others should too is such a weird argument. Sign the petition people, never accept that people should pay 200k+ for an education

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Then don't pay it.

No one is putting a gun to your head to go $300k in debt for a job that makes $150k as an associate.
If you do go in $300k in debt, don't be surprised if that negatively effects your life. . . . cause its a consequence of your actions.

It's a weird mentality of thinking that you don't have to be accountable for the consequences of your actions.
 
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Kobethegoat24

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No, I don't think I will. This isn't about my case, you know nothing about me.. The bigger point you're missing is that it's criminal that dental school costs 200k +. Someone on here few weeks ago did an incredible job deciphering why dental school costs as much as it does. But doesn't mean I can't advocate for the system to change.
Then don't pay it.

No one is putting a gun to your head to go $300k in debt for a job that makes $150k as an associate.
If you do go in $300k in debt, don't be surprised if that negatively effects your life. . . . cause its a consequence of your actions.

It's a weird mentality of thinking that you don't have to be accountable for the consequences of your actions.

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Big Time Hoosier

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Lol people can keep crying, I'm gonna sign the petition. This weird mentality of I paid hundreds of thousands in loans so others should too is such a weird argument. Sign the petition people, never accept that people should pay 200k+ for an education

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Why?! So it can get tacked on to the national debt so my kids have to worry about paying it back?! How about the people who borrowed the money worry about paying it back?! Not sure why that’s such a novel idea. Don’t want to pay $200,000 for an education? Don’t apply in the first place!

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allantois

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No, I don't think I will. This isn't about my case, you know nothing about me.. The bigger point you're missing is that it's criminal that dental school costs 200k +. Someone on here few weeks ago did an incredible job deciphering why dental school costs as much as it does. But doesn't mean I can't advocate for the system to change.

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Forgiving student loans does nothing to change the system and how much schools are charging. I can just see them charging 1+ million if the government goes around forgiving loans.
But once again, this will never happen and if it did it would be capped at something like 20k
 
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Kobethegoat24

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Or like most countries, corporations pay their taxes and kids don't have all these obstacles to gaining access to education. You're kids already have to pay 300k if they want to get higher education.
Why?! So it can get tacked on to the national debt so my kids have to worry about paying it back?! How about the people who borrowed the money worry about paying it back?! Not sure why that’s such a novel idea. Don’t want to pay $200,000 for an education? Don’t apply in the first place!

Big Hoss

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allantois

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This is outrageous. Some students are living it up on student loans: traveling to Europe, leasing new cars and living in luxury apartments while I lived at home and commuted for over an hour to save money. It is extremely foolish to go to graduate school and totally ignore the costs thinking that it will just all be forgiven. I’m afraid a bunch of students are thinking just that.
 
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P7898

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No, I don't think I will. This isn't about my case, you know nothing about me.. The bigger point you're missing is that it's criminal that dental school costs 200k +. Someone on here few weeks ago did an incredible job deciphering why dental school costs as much as it does. But doesn't mean I can't advocate for the system to change.

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It is criminal a lambo costs $275k but you do not see me buying one. I will settle for the Honda.
 
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GoDental101

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Please read and Sign Sign the Petition
Thanks

That petition is ridiculous, so no I will not sign it. However, can you make a petition for every dentist to get a free lambo for their efforts during COVID-19 that way it’s atleast fair and the dentists who paid their school off already still benefit. Let me know when we should expect the lambo.
Thanks
 
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fermi555

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I don't believe in 100% loan forgiveness but I do believe there should be a way out as soon as we get the schools to charge reasonable tuition rates. Higher education is not like buying a Lamborghini as there is no nation wide scam that you have to own a Lamborghini in order to succeed in life or get a job. In fact, comparing the student loan crisis (all 1.6 trillion of it) to someone buying a Lamborghini isn't remotely comparable in my opinion.
 
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MG14

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Please pay back what you borrowed.
Thanks.

Big Hoss

Haha It’s amazing that people can completely overcomplicate something and then trick themselves into thinking the consequences to their choices should be someone else’s problem.

The logic is very simple. You borrow money, you pay it back. That’s it.

But to the OP, don’t get me wrong, (and this is my two cents) but being a current dental student I’d love to have my loans just vanish. Student debt, specifically for dental school is way too high. It’s a scam and quite unnecessary. But forgiving student loans isn’t the solution. Thats like putting gas on a fire to put it out. Loan forgiveness only gives schools the resources to keep charging more and continue with the wasteful spending. It also puts that debt on taxpayers shoulders and no way is that fair.

Love that OP is recognizing debt is high, but your solutions need some tweaking.
 
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fermi555

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The logic is very simple. You borrow money, you pay it back. That’s it.
Because a 17 year old making the biggest financial decision of his life with loan money guaranteed by the federal government who doesn't examine his future ability to pay the loan back, who is intoxicated by a culture that tells him he has to go to college to get a degree as his entire future depends on it, who is surrounded by educators and family who tell him the degree will be worth it, who will face a job market where his wages are stagnant and will likely get a job that doesn't require a college degree, just simply needs to pay the borrowed money back at an unfairly high interest rate. It's that simple. It's actually not that simple. The entire system is corrupt. These students are victims and deserve some sort of way out as soon as we get colleges to lower tuition. If it was simple, the student loan debt wouldn't be $1.6 trillion and climbing.
 
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GoDental101

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Because a 17 year old making the biggest financial decision of his life with loan money guaranteed by the federal government who doesn't examine his future ability to pay the loan back, who is intoxicated by a culture that tells him he has to go to college to get a degree as his entire future depends on it, who is surrounded by educators and family who tell him the degree will be worth it, who will face a job market where his wages are stagnant and will likely get a job that doesn't require a college degree, just simply needs to pay the borrowed money back at an unfairly high interest rate. It's that simple. It's actually not that simple. The entire system is corrupt. These students are victims and deserve some sort of way out as soon as we get colleges to lower tuition. If it was simple, the student loan debt wouldn't be $1.6 trillion and climbing.
What 17 year old doesn’t understand that they shouldn’t buy things that they aren’t going to pay for? It actually is simple. You decide that your education is worth “x” dollars and you pay back “x” dollars plus interest as a way for the source that loaned you the money to benefit for their risk in loaning you the money. If you don’t think it’s worth the price then don’t do it. Don’t act like some one in the age range of 17-22 is too naive and ignorant to understand that. That’s how life works and if they want to try and ignore a simple concept that they do in fact understand then I think it’s time to say grow up and deal with the consequences of your actions, your not a child anymore.
 
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Because a 17 year old making the biggest financial decision of his life with loan money guaranteed by the federal government who doesn't examine his future ability to pay the loan back, who is intoxicated by a culture that tells him he has to go to college to get a degree as his entire future depends on it, who is surrounded by educators and family who tell him the degree will be worth it, who will face a job market where his wages are stagnant and will likely get a job that doesn't require a college degree, just simply needs to pay the borrowed money back at an unfairly high interest rate. It's that simple. It's actually not that simple. The entire system is corrupt. These students are victims and deserve some sort of way out as soon as we get colleges to lower tuition. If it was simple, the student loan debt wouldn't be $1.6 trillion and climbing.

Yeah I will tell you what else makes them a "victim". Pride to a point where you do not believe anything but what you think. Thinking that money is the only way to happiness. Not getting a job in trades because it is looked "down" on. Getting a bachelors degree that you can not get a job with. Studying a topic in college that doesn't benefit society - only giving you more free time to go out and party because it is an easy major (oh I will worry about life after I graduate from college)..... Eating candy because it tastes good but complaining about getting cavities. Not being able to stay up late to watch your favorite TV show.... oh wait I forgot we were talking about adults here...
 
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golfdmd

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What 17 year old doesn’t understand that they shouldn’t buy things that they aren’t going to pay for? It actually is simple. You decide that your education is worth “x” dollars and you pay back “x” dollars plus interest as a way for the source that loaned you the money to benefit for their risk in loaning you the money. If you don’t think it’s worth the price then don’t do it. Don’t act like some one in the age range of 17-22 is too naive and ignorant to understand that. That’s how life works and if they want to try and ignore a simple concept that they do in fact understand then I think it’s time to say grow up and deal with the consequences of your actions, your not a child anymore.
Well according to psychologists there seems to be a significant difference in cognitive ability to make risky decisions between adolescents (17-22) and adults (26+), which applies if you consider taking out hundreds of thousands in loans to be risky business...

link: While Adolescents May Reason As Well As Adults, Their Emotional Maturity Lags, Says New Research

I’m a firm believer in paying back what you take out but let’s not pretend that most college students are mature adults at 22 years old. Schools and lenders take advantage of this to charge and provide access to ridiculous amounts of money. Just because they can does not mean they should. It’s predatory
 
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GoDental101

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Yeah I will tell you what else makes them a "victim". Pride to a point where you do not believe anything but what you think. Thinking that money is the only way to happiness. Not getting a job in trades because it is looked "down" on. Getting a bachelors degree that you can not get a job with. Studying a topic in college that doesn't benefit society - only giving you more free time to go out and party because it is an easy major (oh I will worry about life after I graduate from college)..... Eating candy because it tastes good but complaining about getting cavities. Not being able to stay up late to watch your favorite TV show.... oh wait I forgot we were talking about adults here...
100% agree with this. ^

Well according to psychologists there seems to be a significant difference in cognitive ability to make risky decisions between adolescents (17-22) and adults (26+), which applies if you consider taking out hundreds of thousands in loans to be risky business...

link: While Adolescents May Reason As Well As Adults, Their Emotional Maturity Lags, Says New Research

I’m a firm believer in paying back what you take out but let’s not pretend that most college students are mature adults at 22 years old. Schools and lenders take advantage of this to charge and provide access to ridiculous amounts of money. Just because they can does not mean they should. It’s predatory
Society decided that these people are adults at age 18 so they have the freedom to be treated like one. With that includes a lot of rights and responsibilities, and that includes consequences/learning from their decisions, both good and bad. These decisions and most importantly, the consequences, is what will help shape them into "mature" adults.

What about for the 26 year olds that weren't dumb enough to go 400-600k in debt and didn't go to school whatsoever, if we as a society are going to pay off all the dental graduates debt for their "dumb" decision then all the people who didn't go to school whatsoever deserve to be paid similar to the dental graduates. They can say that they were dumb for not going to dental school and say that they weren't "mature" enough to make that decision and now society needs to pay up for their immaturity. So now let's give all the people who didn't go to school a similar wage as a dentist or in the least give everyone 400-600k to make it so everyone is getting an equal payout. You see where this is going? Our society is fueled off of people making decisions both good and bad to benefit or suffer from those decisions. Benefiting off of good decisions is what encourages people to make good decisions and suffering from those bad decisions is what encourages people to not make bad decisions. That suffering doesn't even prevent all the bad decisions, could you imagine the amount of bad decisions that would be made if the government always bailed everyone out for their "immaturity"? A government/society that worked like that wouldn't last very long imo.
 
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P7898

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Well according to psychologists there seems to be a significant difference in cognitive ability to make risky decisions between adolescents (17-22) and adults (26+), which applies if you consider taking out hundreds of thousands in loans to be risky business...

link: While Adolescents May Reason As Well As Adults, Their Emotional Maturity Lags, Says New Research

I’m a firm believer in paying back what you take out but let’s not pretend that most college students are mature adults at 22 years old. Schools and lenders take advantage of this to charge and provide access to ridiculous amounts of money. Just because they can does not mean they should. It’s predatory

In that case how do we educate the youth... I'm mean adults? If they knew the consequences of their loans then private dental schools wouldn't stay in business, people would be pissed because they can't get into dental school based on increased competition and less schools. But things would be better because of less saturation and reliance on DSOs. The average dental applicant would need to apply 3 times before getting into a school. Life of dentistry would be in a better place. So please enlighten us on how we think we can "accelerate" maturity in kids that do not understand basic math. Sorry I meant adults that do not understand the consequences of their actions.
 
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GoDental101

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In that case how do we educate the youth... I'm mean adults? If they knew the consequences of their loans then private dental schools wouldn't stay in business, people would be pissed because they can't get into dental school based on increased competition and less schools. But things would be better because of less saturation and reliance on DSOs. The average dental applicant would need to apply 3 times before getting into a school. Life of dentistry would be in a better place. So please enlighten us on how we think we can "accelerate" maturity in kids that do not understand basic math. Sorry I meant adults that do not understand the consequences of their actions.
^ This is perfect haha

One way that I can think of accelerating that concept is to make it absolutely clear that no one is going to bail their student debt out. I often hear from pre-dental students that it doesn't matter how much they barrow because they will just get on income based repayment and get the rest forgiven after "X" years. They then proceed to use their loans for stuff like vacations, etc. Petitions like this and attitudes that suggest that their student debt is not their fault only makes the problem worse because it gives the idea that the money they barrow is not their responsibility, but societies.
 
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golfdmd

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100% agree with this. ^


Society decided that these people are adults at age 18 so they have the freedom to be treated like one. With that includes a lot of rights and responsibilities, and that includes consequences/learning from their decisions, both good and bad. These decisions and most importantly, the consequences, is what will help shape them into "mature" adults.

What about for the 26 year olds that weren't dumb enough to go 400-600k in debt and didn't go to school whatsoever, if we as a society are going to pay off all the dental graduates debt for their "dumb" decision then all the people who didn't go to school whatsoever deserve to be paid similar to the dental graduates. They can say that they were dumb for not going to dental school and say that they weren't "mature" enough to make that decision and now society needs to pay up for their immaturity. So now let's give all the people who didn't go to school a similar wage as a dentist or in the least give everyone 400-600k to make it so everyone is getting an equal payout. You see where this is going? Our society is fueled off of people making decisions both good and bad to benefit or suffer from those decisions. Benefiting off of good decisions is what encourages people to make good decisions and suffering from those bad decisions is what encourages people to not make bad decisions. That suffering doesn't even prevent all the bad decisions, could you imagine the amount of bad decisions that would be made if the government always bailed everyone out for their "immaturity"? A government/society that worked like that wouldn't last very long imo.
I don't believe in student debt forgiveness, I should've made that more clear. You're allowed to believe that dental school costs and lending practices are unethical without believing in government bailouts. They're not mutually exclusive.
 
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golfdmd

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In that case how do we educate the youth... I'm mean adults? If they knew the consequences of their loans then private dental schools wouldn't stay in business, people would be pissed because they can't get into dental school based on increased competition and less schools. But things would be better because of less saturation and reliance on DSOs. The average dental applicant would need to apply 3 times before getting into a school. Life of dentistry would be in a better place. So please enlighten us on how we think we can "accelerate" maturity in kids that do not understand basic math. Sorry I meant adults that do not understand the consequences of their actions.
I haven't solved the student debt crisis yet but I'll let you know when I do. My point is that some schools and lenders are taking advantage of people who either don't know better or don't realize the consequences (developmental psychology!). Not sure why saying ridiculously expensive schools are predatory is contentious...
 
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P7898

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I haven't solved the student debt crisis yet but I'll let you know when I do. My point is that some schools and lenders are taking advantage of people who either don't know better or don't realize the consequences (developmental psychology!). Not sure why saying ridiculously expensive schools are predatory is contentious...
Welcome to economics and capitalism.
 

Big Time Hoosier

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The simple fix is to get the government out of the student loan business. Read about the Bennet Hypothesis. Do you think private lenders would be so free in their lending?

“$100,000 for a degree in French Poetry? I don’t think so. We’ll lend you $20,000 max.”

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GoDental101

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I don't believe in student debt forgiveness, I should've made that more clear. You're allowed to believe that dental school costs and lending practices are unethical without believing in government bailouts. They're not mutually exclusive.

I haven't solved the student debt crisis yet but I'll let you know when I do. My point is that some schools and lenders are taking advantage of people who either don't know better or don't realize the consequences (developmental psychology!). Not sure why saying 500k schools are predatory is contentious...
You are making a good point. I think a good idea is to put a cap on the amount someone can receive for education such as 300k. That way schools that can't run on that either close or find a way to become more efficient. Or they can stay open and only take students that have private non-loan means of funding. However, this then brings in other ethical problems such as the poor students not having equal opportunities as the rich students. So really the way it's run right now is "fair" as long as everyone actually pays back what they borrow or have some other consequence for not doing so.

Once people see the dental degree as not being worth whatever price they are paying for it then the demand will fall. However, if people think that they will never have to pay that price then the price will continue to rise and the demand will continue to rise as well because there is no consequence whatsoever which of course would be unsustainable.
 
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golfdmd

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Welcome to economics and capitalism.
Lol America is a mixed economy. We're not even in the top 15 'freest markets' in the world. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe many other countries have the same student debt problem we have.

You are making a good point. I think a good idea is to put a cap on the amount someone can receive for education such as 300k. That way schools that can't run on that either close or find a way to become more efficient. Or they can stay open and only take students that have private non-loan means of funding. However, this then brings in other ethical problems such as the poor students not having equal opportunities as the rich students. So really the way it's run right now is "fair" as long as everyone actually knows that they will pay back what they borrow.

Once people see the dental degree as not being worth whatever price they are paying for it then the demand will fall. However, if people think that they will never have to pay that price then the price will continue to rise and the demand will continue to rise as well because there is no consequence whatsoever which of course would be unsustainable.
Definitely a sticky situation. I agree that the first step is to put a cap on federal student loans. If everyone had to take out a bunch of private loans, I think we'd see more hesitancy towards borrowing so much.
 
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fermi555

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So please enlighten us on how we think we can "accelerate" maturity in kids that do not understand basic math. Sorry I meant adults that do not understand the consequences of their actions.
The lack of empathy for an entire generation of cognitively children who have their lives ruined by predatory student loans is exactly why people like Bernie Sanders and AOC are sadly becoming increasingly more popular among the youth. 18 year olds can't even legally rent a car, can't legally drink, can't even buy cigarettes now can but we expect them to be able to make the biggest financial decision of their life at 18, no questions asked? In today's society, we shouldn't even let them vote. I think the voting age needs to be raised to like 26.
Welcome to economics and capitalism.
Case and point as to why the youth are increasingly supporting socialism. You don't get to $1.6 trillion in student loans without the entire system being rotten. You're really not helping the free market's cause here...
 
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GoDental101

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The lack of empathy for an entire generation of cognitively children who have their lives ruined by predatory student loans is exactly why people like Bernie Sanders and AOC are sadly becoming increasingly more popular among the youth. 18 year olds can't even legally rent a car, can't legally drink, can't even buy cigarettes now can but we expect them to be able to make the biggest financial decision of their life at 18, no questions asked? In today's society, we shouldn't even let them vote. I think the voting age needs to be raised to like 26.

Case and point as to why the youth are increasingly supporting socialism. You don't get to $1.6 trillion in student loans without the entire system being rotten. You're really not helping the free market's cause here...
So you think the same cognitively undeveloped children who shouldn't be able to make decisions like that until they are 26 are also being wise in supporting socialism?
 
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P7898

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The lack of empathy for an entire generation of cognitively children who have their lives ruined by predatory student loans is exactly why people like Bernie Sanders and AOC are sadly becoming increasingly more popular among the youth. 18 year olds can't even legally rent a car, can't legally drink, can't even buy cigarettes now can but we expect them to be able to make the biggest financial decision of their life at 18, no questions asked? In today's society, we shouldn't even let them vote. I think the voting age needs to be raised to like 26.

Case and point as to why the youth are increasingly supporting socialism. You don't get to $1.6 trillion in student loans without the entire system being rotten. You're really not helping the free market's cause here...

We were living in socialism with COVID 19 initial closure. How wonderful it was...
 
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GoDental101

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The lack of empathy for an entire generation of cognitively children who have their lives ruined by predatory student loans is exactly why people like Bernie Sanders and AOC are sadly becoming increasingly more popular among the youth. 18 year olds can't even legally rent a car, can't legally drink, can't even buy cigarettes now can but we expect them to be able to make the biggest financial decision of their life at 18, no questions asked? In today's society, we shouldn't even let them vote. I think the voting age needs to be raised to like 26.

Case and point as to why the youth are increasingly supporting socialism. You don't get to $1.6 trillion in student loans without the entire system being rotten. You're really not helping the free market's cause here...
18 year olds can rent a car by the way, there is just an extra insurance fee. As far as drinking and smoking go most do that illegally before they are 21 either way and do pay the health related/possible legal consequences related to those choices so those really aren't valid or relevant arguments. Also going to dental school and taking out 500k of debt is not necessarily the biggest financial decision of ones life. (buying a home, getting married, getting divorced, having kids) Those are all things that can cost a ton of money/can have some serious consequences and they likely bring more liability than dental school debt. At what age should we say these "cognitively undeveloped children" are able to make decisions? You say 26? How many parents can support a child for 26 years before they are ready for there big kid pants or how many children want their parents making decisions for them until they are 26? I think 18 is a good age for people to be ready to make their own decisions and pay the consequences of them.
 
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