PhD/PsyD Loma Linda University Clinical Psychology

[NeuroPsychosis]

Hello,
I wanted to bring this discussion back about this school just to keep up with updates if anything has changed since mid-2000s about the strength of this program. I was looking over their PhD program (also their PsyD) to gain a perspective of whether this program is successful in graduating clinical psychologist who are interested in 50/50 research/practice. Below are their match and licensure rates if you wanted to take a look and let me know what you think about this program for someone who wants to apply this year, or nah shall we stay away? I for long had thought that their PhD program was performing a bit better than their PsyD, however, now seeing their match rates go way higher.. has something changed? I am definitely aware of the funding status (they have many resources from teaching to scholarships that helps a lot I heard) but I am speaking from a perspective of someone who might land this as a safety school. Any input?

PhD: https://behavioralhealth.llu.edu/si...llu.edu/files/2021-10/sbh-psyc-data-phd21.pdf

PsyD: https://behavioralhealth.llu.edu/si...lu.edu/files/2021-10/sbh-psyc-data-psyd21.pdf

Thank you.

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[psych.meout]

64% licensure rate for a PsyD program?

 

[NeuroPsychosis]

64% licensure rate for a PsyD program?

Yes and %81 for those who got the PhD. Their PhD program seems like the way to go for this school.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I would agree that the Ph.D. program looks like a safer bet given the outcome statistics, and specifically the licensure rate, internship match rate, and cohort sizes. The downside is the longer average time to completion, which isn't unexpected or normally a big deal, but becomes so when considering it could cost you an extra $30k+.

Personally, with those data, I wouldn't recommend the Psy.D. program to students, and would be hesitant to recommend the Ph.D. program without significant caveats due to its cost. I also have no first-hand knowledge of the program, so there's that.

 

[WisNeuro]

As with any of the high-cost programs, crunch the numbers and see what your monthly costs would be with that debt load. Also consider that these programs exist at the whims of Congress and presidential administrations, particularity in a midterms year in which Dems are likely to lose the House and Senate, and are not in a great position heading into 2024.

 

[PsyDr]

They used to have some ethics code about being 7th day adventists. I peaced out when they said no caffeine.

 

[NeuroPsychosis]

I agree cost is a thing to consider for this school. I have no clue how their financial aid package is actually like.... But I have toured the school before. It is a very interesting school (America's blue zone city), the people there are nice, and they have a very respectable medical school and hospital. I believe there was some scholarship programs that was activated recently for PhD/PsyD entering students.. would need to look into those. As a religious campus, I thought it wasn't that of a problem if you are from a different faith, they emphasized that by no means you have to live to their standards on campus (from the perspective of food/drinks etc). Though everything shuts down starting Friday at noon.

 

[Ollie123]

Have two colleagues/friends I really respect who came from their PsyD program. We haven't discussed their program extensively, however I suspect both had a bit of an uphill battle to get to where they are (e.g., did multiple post-docs, hustled a fair bit more during said post-docs). They also seem the sort who would have been successful anywhere so I'm not sure how much to attribute to the school.

If you are going the unfunded/minimally-funded route, there are certainly worse programs out there. I'd almost always advise taking an extra 1-2 years to build a CV over an unfunded program though.

 

[psych.meout]

I agree cost is a thing to consider for this school. I have no clue how their financial aid package is actually like.... But I have toured the school before. It is a very interesting school (America's blue zone city), the people there are nice, and they have a very respectable medical school and hospital. I believe there was some scholarship programs that was activated recently for PhD/PsyD entering students.. would need to look into those. As a religious campus, I thought it wasn't that of a problem if you are from a different faith, they emphasized that by no means you have to live to their standards on campus (from the perspective of food/drinks etc). Though everything shuts down starting Friday at noon.

I'd be careful like this. I've known several people who have toured diploma mill type places and the attractiveness of the facilities and friendliness of the people were common refrains, but without much in the way of substance about important parts of the training (e.g., funding, research opportunities, certainty about specific practicum opportunities). It's all just marketing to rope in new students.

 

[R. Matey]

I'd be careful like this. I've known several people who have toured diploma mill type places and the attractiveness of the facilities and friendliness of the people were common refrains, but without much in the way of substance about important parts of the training (e.g., funding, research opportunities, certainty about specific practicum opportunities). It's all just marketing to rope in new students.

One of the nicest lunches I ever had was at a Psy.D. program interview in a university affiliated professional school that admitted a large student cohort. The spread was so large with such a variety that you wanted to go back for seconds because you could have an entirely different meal experience than with the firsts. At my home program interview though, we just got Jimmy John's.

 

[R. Matey]

I'd stay away. At best, we're talking about a potentially fine Ph.D. program with a significant upfront cost where that are plenty of comparable training experiences available to you at a much lower cost. This is, of course, provided that you are willing to move to a potentially less desirable place to do your training, which can be a barrier for some folks.

 

[neurotic_cow]

One of the nicest lunches I ever had was at a Psy.D. program interview in a university affiliated professional school that admitted a large student cohort. The spread was so large with such a variety that you wanted to go back for seconds because you could have an entirely different meal experience than with the firsts. At my home program interview though, we just got Jimmy John's.

Same experience. Though they lost me when they briefly glossed over the fact that most of their graduates left with 200k in debt. I ended up going to a state school PsyD program that offered funding through graduate assistantships, though their interview food consisted of the most bland cafeteria sandwiches ever made on the planet. Awesome program. No debt. 100% worth the crappy interview food.

 

[borne_before]

Same experience. Though they lost me when they briefly glossed over the fact that most of their graduates left with 200k in debt. I ended up going to a state school PsyD program that offered funding through graduate assistantships, though their interview food consisted of the most bland cafeteria sandwiches ever made on the planet. Awesome program. No debt. 100% worth the crappy interview food.

Listen up future prospects, if you can endure bland sandos at the start of your internship, you can afford quac at chipotle after you graduate with minimal debt. No debt is the best way to flavortown.

 

[MiniLop]

My program (a PhD program at a large public university) gave terrible cafeteria food for lunch, but in their defense they always sprung for a buffet from the local Indian place for the post-interview dinner. Every year the grad students would bring tupperware to interview day and steal all the leftovers as soon as the applicants left. Mmmm, samosas.

 

[Temperance]

Same experience. Though they lost me when they briefly glossed over the fact that most of their graduates left with 200k in debt. I ended up going to a state school PsyD program that offered funding through graduate assistantships, though their interview food consisted of the most bland cafeteria sandwiches ever made on the planet. Awesome program. No debt. 100% worth the crappy interview food.

The Psy.D. open house I attended many years ago addressed the debt load head-on by saying that we would make so much money after we graduated that we would pay it off in no time *and* buy a home.

I don't remember the food, though.

 

[smalltownpsych]

The Psy.D. open house I attended many years ago addressed the debt load head-on by saying that we would make so much money after we graduated that we would pay it off in no time *and* buy a home.

I don't remember the food, though.

I am still waiting to make the boatload of cash!

 

[neurotic_cow]

I am still waiting to make the boatload of cash!
View attachment 354794

Samesies.

 

[WisNeuro]

The Psy.D. open house I attended many years ago addressed the debt load head-on by saying that we would make so much money after we graduated that we would pay it off in no time *and* buy a home.

I don't remember the food, though.

Did they keep a straight face when they lied to a room full of people?

 

[R. Matey]

The Psy.D. open house I attended many years ago addressed the debt load head-on by saying that we would make so much money after we graduated that we would pay it off in no time *and* buy a home.

I don't remember the food, though.

At mine, I remember people being pushed into the neuro and forensic "tracks" as justification for the high debt load.

 

[ClinicalABA]

The Psy.D. open house I attended many years ago addressed the debt load head-on by saying that we would make so much money after we graduated that we would pay it off in no time *and* buy a home.

I don't remember the food, though.

I suppose you could consider a tent to be a home, and wouldn't be suprised if there was some asterisked small print in there brochure that said as much. There aren't any "real" homes left to buy, especially in those places where the big PsyD programs are located, like Boston, East Bay, etc.

 

[WisNeuro]

I suppose you could consider a tent to be a home, and wouldn't be suprised if there was some asterisked small print in there brochure that said as much. There aren't any "real" homes left to buy, especially in those places where the big PsyD programs are located, like Boston, East Bay, etc.

Come on now, a fully licensed psychologist can do better than a tent. Surely they'd be able to afford a yurt for their starter home.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I’m waiting to hear back from this program, and wanted to read up on some reviews and opinions. It seems like the conversation deviated from the original purpose of the thread. I wanted to update the discussion with new data from the school. With the updated info, licensure percentage has gone up significantly for both their PhD and PsyD programs. If any of the neuro professionals can comment on the neuro concentration of the program that would be great.

PhD:

https://behavioralhealth.llu.edu/sites/behavioralhealth.llu.edu/files/2022-09/sbh-psyc-data-phd-22.pdf

PsyD:

https://behavioralhealth.llu.edu/sites/behavioralhealth.llu.edu/files/2022-09/sbh-psyc-data-psyd-22.pdf

Recent outcomes look good for both Ph.D. and PsyD programs in terms of internship and licensure. Tuition remains a HUGE issue for me. Let's say you are one of the ~60% of PsyD students who graduate in 5 years. If you finance 2/3 of the tuition at 4.66%, then you will have monthly loan payments of ~$1200 for 10 year payback or ~700 for 20 year payback. Now let's say that you land a great entry level job making $100K per year (you probably won't!), then you'll be taking home ~$1200 per week (after taxes/insurance, but before extras like retirement savings). Basically- best case scenario only financing 2/3 of tuition for 5 years, with a really good starting salary- you'll be working one week per month just to pay off student loans. That's a pretty difficult situation to be in.

 

[borne_before]

Recent outcomes look good for both Ph.D. and PsyD programs in terms of internship and licensure. Tuition remains a HUGE issue for me. Let's say you are one of the ~60% of PsyD students who graduate in 5 years. If you finance 2/3 of the tuition at 4.66%, then you will have monthly loan payments of ~$1200 for 10 year payback or ~700 for 20 year payback. Now let's say that you land a great entry level job making $100K per year (you probably won't!), then you'll be taking home ~$1200 per week (after taxes/insurance, but before extras like retirement savings). Basically- best case scenario only financing 2/3 of tuition for 5 years, with a really good starting salary- you'll be working one week per month just to pay off student loans. That's a pretty difficult situation to be in.

These numbers check out. Listen to this guy. Unless you are independently wealthy, have a high earning partner, or are just reckless with money, then unfunded programs just aren't worth it.

 

[psych.meout]

Recent outcomes look good for both Ph.D. and PsyD programs in terms of internship and licensure. Tuition remains a HUGE issue for me. Let's say you are one of the ~60% of PsyD students who graduate in 5 years. If you finance 2/3 of the tuition at 4.66%, then you will have monthly loan payments of ~$1200 for 10 year payback or ~700 for 20 year payback. Now let's say that you land a great entry level job making $100K per year (you probably won't!), then you'll be taking home ~$1200 per week (after taxes/insurance, but before extras like retirement savings). Basically- best case scenario only financing 2/3 of tuition for 5 years, with a really good starting salary- you'll be working one week per month just to pay off student loans. That's a pretty difficult situation to be in.

And that's just tuition. The numbers get a lot worse once you factor in cost of living, internship application and moving expenses, and other costs.

 

[NeuroPsychosis]

I withdrew my application from this program since they asked way too many "values" and "religion" questions to my recommenders which was way too time consuming for them given that I already answered endless essays about those in the application, I hated the fact that they went after my recommenders for more of these types of Essays. Main motivator to skip this school was the finances. I already received two interviews from fully funded clinical science programs and waitlisted for one (interview weekend) as of today, so I felt like I made the good decision to just avoid it and receiving those interviews this week proved that I am competitive to funded programs. Never lose hope!

 

[psych.meout]

I withdrew my application from this program since they asked way too many "values" and "religion" questions to my recommenders which was way too time consuming for them given that I already answered endless essays about those in the application, I hated the fact that they went after my recommenders for more of these types of Essays.

But it's a program at an explicitly very religious institution. Why would you "hate" them for asking your references for more information about values and religion?

 

[TrackCPD]

I know I’m a little late to the party but I’m a Loma Linda Psy.D. Alumni. It’s an APA accredited program, I matched with an APA accredited internship, I’m licensed, currently work for the state, have more student loans than I ever thought humanly possible, but was still able to buy a home. Once my 10 years public service with the state is up, I hope the Public Student Loan Forgiveness program holds up their end of the bargain and pays them off.

If you have any specific questions, I’d be happy to answer them.

 

[TrackCPD]

Thank you for this! If you don’t mind, I do have a few questions. What did you think of the overall atmosphere of the school, considering the religious aspect and all? Also, do you believe that the program prepared you well for the line of work? I know the hot topic with PsyD programs, especially on this platform, is whether or not they are diploma mills and if they are actually preparing competent psychologists. Any insight about the program would be greatly appreciated!

Well, I’m a Christian but I’m not Seventh Day Adventist (SDA). The VAST majority of other students weren’t Christians. It really is a mixed bag of various faiths or “nones.” They require chapel attendance on certain days but it’s not really a church service. It’s kinda like performance ms, announcements, motivational speakers, etc. Most people would just tune out on their phones or study/do homework if they weren’t interested in the discussion. They have some Jesus statues around campus but as a Christian myself, I enjoyed that aspect.

SDAs have a strong focus on physical health. The entire city (it’s actually a pretty small town surrounded by much larger cities) is vegetarian. The campus does not sell any meat options nor do restaurants and grocery stores in the town. That being said, we were able to walk just down the street outside of city limits to eat meat or whatever else. They don’t allow alcohol on campus and encourage people not to drink but again, you can go to a grocery store outside of town and get whatever you want and do whatever you want in your home. I don’t think they sell caffeine on campus but you can bring coffee, soda, tea, or whatever.

In the area, it is a very well respected establishment. The hospital on campus is the premier medical facility for the area. It is big and has life-flight capabilities and everything so you’ll sometimes have classes interrupted by the sound of helicopter blades bringing someone to the hospital. The university is looked up to as top notch for the area. But it is expensive.

The program itself was solid. I felt well-prepared but they do appear to play favorites with certain students (giving some students more internal practicum experience than others, etc.). They also have their own outpatient AND inpatient clinic so you can get some really good practicum experience.

It certainly is not a diploma mill. They actually gave a few students the boot once it became clear they either were unable to keep up with the rigors of the program or, in one case, it was clear the student had some severe mental health issues of her own that would make her unfit as a psychologist.

Most of my graduating cohort is doing well. Most are licensed and employed. Their neuropsych emphasis is great with a lot of research options given the access they have to medical devices right on campus (fMRI, etc.). We had people from my cohort match at Yale for internship, UCLA, and one guy ended up with NASA looking at the cognitive effects of radiation in space. I think he teaches at LLU now.

All in all, I am pleased with the school but I sure wish it didn’t cost so much!

 

[gabrielaerikson]

Well, I’m a Christian but I’m not Seventh Day Adventist (SDA). The VAST majority of other students weren’t Christians. It really is a mixed bag of various faiths or “nones.” They require chapel attendance on certain days but it’s not really a church service. It’s kinda like performance ms, announcements, motivational speakers, etc. Most people would just tune out on their phones or study/do homework if they weren’t interested in the discussion. They have some Jesus statues around campus but as a Christian myself, I enjoyed that aspect.

SDAs have a strong focus on physical health. The entire city (it’s actually a pretty small town surrounded by much larger cities) is vegetarian. The campus does not sell any meat options nor do restaurants and grocery stores in the town. That being said, we were able to walk just down the street outside of city limits to eat meat or whatever else. They don’t allow alcohol on campus and encourage people not to drink but again, you can go to a grocery store outside of town and get whatever you want and do whatever you want in your home. I don’t think they sell caffeine on campus but you can bring coffee, soda, tea, or whatever.

In the area, it is a very well respected establishment. The hospital on campus is the premier medical facility for the area. It is big and has life-flight capabilities and everything so you’ll sometimes have classes interrupted by the sound of helicopter blades bringing someone to the hospital. The university is looked up to as top notch for the area. But it is expensive.

The program itself was solid. I felt well-prepared but they do appear to play favorites with certain students (giving some students more internal practicum experience than others, etc.). They also have their own outpatient AND inpatient clinic so you can get some really good practicum experience.

It certainly is not a diploma mill. They actually gave a few students the boot once it became clear they either were unable to keep up with the rigors of the program or, in one case, it was clear the student had some severe mental health issues of her own that would make her unfit as a psychologist.

Most of my graduating cohort is doing well. Most are licensed and employed. Their neuropsych emphasis is great with a lot of research options given the access they have to medical devices right on campus (fMRI, etc.). We had people from my cohort match at Yale for internship, UCLA, and one guy ended up with NASA looking at the cognitive effects of radiation in space. I think he teaches at LLU now.

All in all, I am pleased with the school but I sure wish it didn’t cost so much! But the price can be understandable. Quality psychological education can't be cheap because the profession is so complicated. And I'm ready to pay that money to be able to become a good specialist in the future. And my program is totally worth the price because it has already given me so much information, skills, and experience. Sometimes I even think that it's too much because I do not have enough time to do everything I need. But it's not a big problem because I found something helpful online. The last time this page https://studymoose.com/psychology helped me with writing because there are free essay examples on psychology which gave me inspiration and writing ideas, and after all, I managed to finish my paper. And in general, there are a lot of resources with psychological info, including the library, so I have nothing to complain about.

Thank you so much for this info. I think that the information given by a student is always important when it comes to choosing a program or university