Longevity, Finances, and Retirement in Emergency Medicine

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What's the most important factor in EP career longevity?

  • Getting rid of night shifts

    Votes: 27 25.5%
  • Cutting back on shifts

    Votes: 30 28.3%
  • Reasonable pace at work

    Votes: 21 19.8%
  • Colleagues you like

    Votes: 4 3.8%
  • High pay

    Votes: 9 8.5%
  • Outside activities

    Votes: 9 8.5%
  • Family support

    Votes: 5 4.7%
  • Non-clinical professional activities

    Votes: 1 0.9%

  • Total voters
    106

The White Coat Investor

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This month's Annals of Emergency Medicine Change of Shift column was written by Dr. Mark Debard, an emergency physician who was grandfathered into the specialty 40 years ago and notes he had few if any mentors throughout his career and now as he moves into retirement. It takes a lot of guts to write about your own fears, finances, and life and publish it to the world, and I'm sure Dr. Debard will eventually read what is written here, so I'm going to make an effort to remain very polite and sympathetic and encourage you to do the same.

Reading the column made me sad for a number of reasons, which I can't list without seeming critical of important decisions Dr. DeBard made in his life, but which I think are worthwhile for young emergency physicians, residents, and students to consider.

1) When To Drop Nights

Dr. DeBard gives a recommendation that you should go to "half-nights" at 55 and "no-nights" at 60 and notes that he had to convince his partners of the wisdom of that policy. In my mind, he's at least 10-15 years too late! If I were going to give recommendations to a junior colleague, I would tell him to plan his life so that he can go to "half-nights" at 40 and off them completely by 50. I would also tell him to avoid a group that doesn't get that. Nights suck. Working them is a cardiac risk factor. It decreases your longevity, increases your burnout, and has serious effects on family life that are compounded by the fact that the vast majority of emergency medicine shifts are NOT banker's hours. In fact, in my department, less than 2 out of 7 shifts are even close to banker's hours (the 6 am to 2 pm shift and the 11am to 7 pm shift on weekdays that aren't holidays.)

2) Cutting Back

Dr. DeBard also notes he "went to three quarters clinical time at age 62, which is also helping prolong my career. I'd recommend it to anyone over 55 or 60. It really improves attitude and enthusiasm. Plus, it gave me enough time to finally get serious about my physical fitness." Again, I'd say he's 20 years too late. If you plan your finances well, you can be 3/4 time by 40, 1/2 time by 45, and retired by 50. If you find that you don't even have enough time to stay physically fit as an emergency physician, you're working WAAAYYYY too much. There's only one reason people do that, and it isn't for the love of seeing more cases of alcohol intoxication. Cutting back improves your attitude and enthusiasm at 40 just as much as at 60. What's the point of making gobs of money if you can't use it to create exactly the life you want?

3) One House, One Spouse

Dr. DeBard notes he went through two divorces (and three marriages.) One of the cardinal rules of personal finance is one house, one spouse. Every time you get divorced you not only cut your wealth in half, but you decrease your ability to accumulate it for years afterward due to the alimony that almost every divorcing emergency physician is going to pay.

4) Paying for children's college

Dr. DeBard laments that "Financially, 2 divorces, late-in-life children with college expenses, and the income of an inner-city emergency physician haven't left me in a great position." Another important rule of personal finance is that retirement comes before college. Kids can dramatically reduce the cost of college by choosing a less expensive institution or going to one to which they get a scholarship. They can also take out loans and work. Many of us (and probably Dr. DeBard) did. But it's pretty tough to get a loan for retirement. If you make decisions like that, you might find that just like Dr. DeBard, you'll get to retirement and find that you "traveled a lot and lived well while working [but] will just need to tighten the belt and resolve to live with it." That's a crappy feeling I don't want to have on the eve of my retirement. I want my thought to be "how am I ever going to spend all this and who can I give it to where it will make the biggest difference?"

5) Low pay?

And about that "inner-city emergency physician" income, I have no idea what Dr. DeBard makes/made. It appears he is at Ohio State College of Medicine as an academic physician. Last I checked, Ohio has about the lowest cost of living in the country. Academics do get paid less than most private practice emergency physicians, especially partners. But it's hardly poverty wages. The 25th percentile for employee emergency physicians in the 2015 Daniel Sterns Survey was $250K. Let's assume he did even worse than that. We'll call it the equivalent of $200K over his ~35 year career. If he had saved just 20% of that income, that's $40K a year. At 8% a year, that should have grown to nearly $7 Million. Even with a divorce or two he shouldn't be feeling like he has to cut back his lifestyle significantly in order to retire. Remember that with no need to save for retirement or college, no kids at home, no work expenses, no disability or life insurance, and a much lower tax bill, he should be able to retire at the exact same lifestyle on $100K of retirement income. If there is a significant spousal retirement and Social Security, he may need as little as $1-2M in retirement savings to maintain his pre-retirement lifestyle.

6) What to do in retirement?

Another big issue for anyone who eventually plans to retire is how they will fill their time. Dr. DeBard doesn't want to work fast-track, has no interest in administration, and doesn't want to work at least 4 shifts a month (all of which might improve the financial situation.) Instead, he's been keeping a list the last few years of what he'd like to do once retired. I would submit rather than going full bore to 62, then 3/4 speed to 65, he would have a lot less difficulty knowing exactly what he wanted to do with his time if he'd been working a lot less all along. Figure out what you want to do "once you're retired" and start doing it now as much as possible. Then all you have to do is expand your plethora of hobbies and interests when you actually do pull the ejection handle.

The bottom line is this for young emergency physicians:

1) Assume you will want to stop working nights at 40, that you will want to start cutting back on shifts in your 40s, and that you will want to retire completely at some point in your 50s. Plan your finances accordingly. If that turns out not to be true, then you'll have a lot more money to spend, give, or leave to heirs.

2) Find your balance in life as early as possible. Too many shifts, especially night shifts, is incredibly stressful on a marriage. Far better to work less (and make less) and not have to split your assets in half once or twice. Balance also includes hobbies and other interests. If you don't have 4 or 5 things that make you excited about life at any given time, you're spending too much time at work. If you can't live on $200-400K, you have a spending problem, not an earning problem.

3) The secret to longevity in emergency medicine is to work less, be financially secure, and have the freedom to explore the academic and professional interests that come up along the way.

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I will agree completely that you outline a path that would significantly improve on the quality of life of most mid/late career EPs. Your timeframe is also unrealistic for most EPs. There aren't enough of us to go around to allow for most docs to stop working nights by 40. And it's not just that there's not enough of us but the percentage of young docs willing to work extra nights is way too low. Why would they join a group that makes them work exclusively nights for 2-5 years when they can work for a CMG that may actually offer them a sweetheart schedule starting out? Saying to quit nights at 40 is the same as advising docs to only work weekday am shifts because it significantly improves your quality of life. It's a true statement, it just isn't useful for most docs.
 
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What would or should this mean for us non-trads who have an initial interest in EM but haven't matriculated yet? For example, I would be almost 40 by the time I theoretically graduated from an EM program.
 
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The MOST IMPORTANT decision ANYONE in Medicine, EM medicine, In Life can make is who they MARRY. Bottom line. Marry the correct person and you will be happy/successful. Marry the wrong one, and you will be miserable no matter what happens.

Get the Marriage right and everything will fall in line unless you are just a plain poor decision maker.

Marry the correct spouse (Wife in my case) and now at age 42, has allowed me

1. Be financially set where I could work 5-8 dys a month and have no change in my lifestyle. It feels really good to have options in your work life. Work when you want, how much, etc.... Hopefully in 5 yrs, I will stop working full time and just pick up random locums shifts to keep my mind sharp.
2. Give me more time to do other activities in life. Volunteering. Currently training for a marthon, etc
3. Once you have free time, everything in your personal life falls into place.

But you have to pick the right spouse. Pick the wrong one that can't work with you on a personal, work, business level and you will just be throwing away money. Get a divorce, and you might as well tack on another 5-10 yrs of work to get to your predivorce state.
 
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All true posts!

Instead of retirement goals for age 40, 50, etc, can you from these in number of years of practice? I personally didn't finished residency until I was 32 - 4 years later than the "traditional" grad. Does that mean my targets are 44, 54, etc?

Also, can you give guidance for savings milestones one should meet relative to their years in practice? For example, 5 years out of practice, you should have $x invested, 10 years out you should have $x invested, etc...
 
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From an EM resident who hasn't experienced this for long: How much of the adverse effect on longevity would you guys think is working at night per se, vs constant circadian rhythm jerking from nights to days?

I'd be interested in working afternoons and nights ONLY, that way I would -always- be able to sleep at least 6 hours in the late morning. As a nocturnal person who stays up til 4am every time I revert to a vacation schedule, I'd be thrilled to work 3 nights/week for the rest of my life. I may even be able to take the hit for you guys that want to drop nights at 40...

But being left handed and not flossing, my life expectancy is already slashed 20 years or so, so I'd love to avoid another 10.
 
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Not to mention that with more and more non trads starting med school in their late 20s, its relatively common nowadays to graduate residency/fellowship in your mid 30s.

That would mean only working 4-6 years as an attending before trying to cut down nights.
 
From an EM resident who hasn't experienced this for long: How much of the adverse effect on longevity would you guys think is working at night per se, vs constant circadian rhythm jerking from nights to days?

I'd be interested in working afternoons and nights ONLY, that way I would -always- be able to sleep at least 6 hours in the late morning. As a nocturnal person who stays up til 4am every time I revert to a vacation schedule, I'd be thrilled to work 3 nights/week for the rest of my life. I may even be able to take the hit for you guys that want to drop nights at 40...

But being left handed and not flossing, my life expectancy is already slashed 20 years or so, so I'd love to avoid another 10.

I'd happily work those 5pm - 1am or even 7pm-3am shifts the rest of my life.

Its those 11pm -7am shifts that wear on you after a while...
 
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Super important to make good habits and a good plan early on. Getting things right at the end of residency at 30 makes a lot of things possible. Taking until 50 to figure it out, 2 divorces later can be tough. Thanks WCI for all the help getting so many people back on the right track.
 
Agree that dropping nights at 40, while it may sound great, would be a complete non-starter in most groups.
Don't a lot of groups allow for shift dfferential or buy outs to solve this? I certainly wouldn't support you not workig nights for free just because of your age. But for $40/hr differential? Rest easy old man ;)
 
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  1. Getting rid of night shifts
  2. Cutting back on shifts
  3. Reasonable pace at work
  4. Colleagues you like
These items are all really important. The other thing I'd add is shift length.

A lot of shops run 12 hour shifts because they are easy to schedule. Really quiet rural settings aside, a 12 hour shift in a place that has a 2.0 or higher pph volume is too long. The gig I'm leaving has 12 hour shifts. Usually when I come in in the morning, I'm picking up anywhere between 3-5 charts an hour for the first 5 hours I am there by myself with a midlevel showing up a few hours after I do. My record is 23 patients in the first 5 hours, it's never under 15, and usually closing in on 20. By the time I get to the midway point in my shift, I'm already pretty tired and the department is nearing gridlock because of the unwillingness of the admitting teams to keep pace. That rural setting aside, you really don't want to be in a department for more than 8-10 hours at a stretch or you're going to suffer a loss of efficiency.

As far as what to do in retirement, that is hardly a problem. There are thousands of things I'd like to get involved in when I'm done and none of them involve medicine.

Oh, and absolutely positively avoid getting divorced. You're far better off never getting married. Never get married without living with your boyfriend/girlfriend for a solid year, either. Lots of flaws can be concealed when you're dating someone which come out when you're together 24/7.

Oh, and don't necessarily assume you're going to live to a ripe old age if you're a guy. Plenty of men don't live to see their 70th birthday, even ones who don't smoke/drink/do drugs. My dad passed away at 63. One of my residency attendings in his 50s. Retiring by 55 is a good plan to have.
 
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Lots of good advice here. Funny that I'm the only one who has voted for "Family support" so far, as many (most?) posters agree that avoiding divorce is the single biggest factor to happiness and financial security. Having a spouse who will help/encourage you to sleep as needed is HUGELY helpful for dealing with an EM schedule. That being said, a long and happy career clearly results from a combination of factors, rather than One Cool Trick.
 
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From an EM resident who hasn't experienced this for long: How much of the adverse effect on longevity would you guys think is working at night per se, vs constant circadian rhythm jerking from nights to days?

I'd be interested in working afternoons and nights ONLY, that way I would -always- be able to sleep at least 6 hours in the late morning. As a nocturnal person who stays up til 4am every time I revert to a vacation schedule, I'd be thrilled to work 3 nights/week for the rest of my life. I may even be able to take the hit for you guys that want to drop nights at 40...

But being left handed and not flossing, my life expectancy is already slashed 20 years or so, so I'd love to avoid another 10.
Working nights (probably) doesn't have as much of an impact on longevity if you do it consistently and get that anchor sleep in the mornings - but you have to otherwise have a life / family that are conducive to that. If your SO works a daytime schedule and is cranky because s/he never sees you, or your kids are in school and you never get any time with them, it becomes much harder. I have colleagues who are nocturnists and sleep while their kids are in school, so they have some evening time together - seems to work for them. Everyone's situation is a little different = no "one size fits all."
 
Working nights... I have colleagues who are nocturnists and sleep while their kids are in school, so they have some evening time together - seems to work for them. Everyone's situation is a little different = no "one size fits all."

I am not even in residency yet (god willing I get a spot), but have to comment on this specific idea of a "nocturnist". One of my early mentors was a guy who LOVED nights and said it was much better than constantly rotating through days/evenings/nights. He did nights exclusively for 5 years and said he made more money. Not to mention, he could sleep while his kids were at school and enjoy every evening with them. Has anyone had a similar experience?
 
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Who waits until 62 to get serious about fitness/health?
 
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I am not even in residency yet (god willing I get a spot), but have to comment on this specific idea of a "nocturnist". One of my early mentors was a guy who LOVED nights and said it was much better than constantly rotating through days/evenings/nights. He did nights exclusively for 5 years and said he made more money. Not to mention, he could sleep while his kids were at school and enjoy every evening with them. Has anyone had a similar experience?

Yes. This works very well for some people, but most docs do not want this set up. As such, if you're board certified and you want to work all nights, I know 50 states where you can get a job...
 
Great post. I somewhat disagree with the "no nights" or "very few nights" after 40 policy though. That might be an option if you are a senior partner that can scut out the partnership track juniors for all the crap shifts, but if any of them had half a brain, they would avoid a group that gave them that kind of schedule in the first place. Most groups are going to expect nights to some degree. Hell, we all knew that going into this specialty. I'd have a real problem with someone asking for something that is, generally speaking, pretty unorthodox for a barely mid-career EM doc and is likely not going to put you on very good terms with all your slightly older colleagues who are having to pick up the nights that you no longer want to work. Nationally, we are short EM docs, but not short enough where I would have to take on a lot of young guys with what I feel are pretty unreasonable demands. I think you have to keep in mind, it's not necessarily the nights that are bad, it's the circadian disruption that is most harmful. One of our nocturnists is a guy in his early 60s, and he loves nights. It goes great with his schedule and he actually is pretty resistant to working anything BUT nights. None of us like to work them, but how many other industries or careers require occasional or regular night shifts? A lot. Night shift nurses? RTs? They are having to switch back and forth on their days off just like we do and some of us make in one month, what they make in an entire year. I'm pretty grateful for this career that would still afford me a ridiculous salary even if I wanted to work an average of 35 hrs a week. I don't like 'em, but I certainly don't mind sharing a few nights with my colleagues. If the nights are getting to you, just cut back your hours in general. Work 8 shifts a month and 2 nights. Anybody can do that.

Cutting back at 40? Half-time at 45? 50? Again, I just can't think of wanting to take on a guy demanding 60-100 hrs a month at 40, 45, 50 yrs old. If you've got a PRN spot open or need a part time guy, then sure, but why take him over the 55yo guy that wants to work FT? PT Locums is always an option I suppose. Some of you guys must have a seriously better retirement investment portfolio than I do. I dream of retiring at 55 but I seriously doubt that I would ever be able to retire before 60.

There's a lot of talk about picking the right spouse, as if it's complex algebra and you either picked the correct multiple question or didn't before walking down the aisle. Divorce is a very real possibility for ANYONE. I don't care who you are or how happy you think your spouse is at this point. A lot can change over the years. People change. What used to be the perfect marriage can deteriorate into a not so perfect one and divorce isn't always entirely up to you. I would advise every physician to plan for it. Hope it never happens, but plan for it in case it does so that it doesn't turn your plans to retire at 55 into retiring at 70. I absolutely agree with Old Mil about the living together first part. You'd also be completely insane to not sign a prenup as a physician these days.
 
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I am not even in residency yet (god willing I get a spot), but have to comment on this specific idea of a "nocturnist". One of my early mentors was a guy who LOVED nights and said it was much better than constantly rotating through days/evenings/nights. He did nights exclusively for 5 years and said he made more money. Not to mention, he could sleep while his kids were at school and enjoy every evening with them. Has anyone had a similar experience?

Usually, every group has at least one of these.

Advantages:
1) No rotating back and forth as you are always on nights. You generally swing partially back to days on your days off though.
2) No suits and generally less BS at nights.
3) Pt's are generally speaking... more legitimate. Toothaches and free pregnancy tests, in general, don't get out of bed at 2a.m. to come to the ED. In general...
4) Group is appreciative as they know you are sucking up most of the nights so that they don't have to work them.
5) If you are slower or less productive, you can generally get away with it because what you lose in value in other performance metrics, you make up for in taking on the role as a nocturnist unless the FMD is getting calls in the middle of the night every time you're on shift because there are 12 LWOTS/LWBS and 30 in the waiting room and 6% left AMA.
6) Shift differential. More $$$.
7) You are busiest when you are most fresh. i.e. The beginning of the shift. As you get tired, the volume drops off.

Disadvantages:
1) Even though you are not switching back and forth, it's still tough to avoid it on your days off. Deleterious to your health.
2) Social isolation. Even though some swear to have integrated it well with marriages, I really don't see how. It definitely has a negative impact on your social life. So, you wake up on a Wed night and are off until Sat. What do you have planned exactly while the world is sleeping?
3) I'm sure there are more that I can't think of right now...

Honestly, the happiest nocturnists that I've met are the locums guys that work 2 huge blocks of all nights and then fly back home to Florida or California and are off for 3 weeks vacationing in the Caribbean.
 
Who waits until 62 to get serious about fitness/health?

The majority of the people I see everyday at work.

I will raise the two issues that immediately struck me even though they may have been touched on previously. If you are going "half-nights" at 40, and "no nights" by 50, who is going to be doing those night shifts that you are not? Is a 30 year old going to say "sure, I will skip my daughters pre-school life so I might get some nights off in 20 years?" There will have to be a serious financial incentive for the youngsters which works out to getting paid less when you hit 40 and much less when you hit 55. It sounds good on paper, but how many people that age are willing to take that hit (for the reasons already discussed)?

There is also an issue with "part-time" work. Many of the expenses for a physician are fixed (that is, the same whether you work 1 hour or 60 hours.) Granted, EM is probably the one specialty best set up to handle this. But unless you are willing to work "bad" shifts, you will not earn the same per hour at 8 hrs/wk as someone who is "full time." (Of course there are ways to compensate: administrative tasks, hospital QA, etc. Also, I knew one retired physician who said he would take over any shift with 4 hours notice: for a goodly amount, of course.)

Again, that would not be an issue if you plan everything correctly, and you suffer no disasters along the way. (You can do everything according to plan meeting your financial goals, and then - as happened to a friend - daughter #2 pops out needing a kidney transplant and dialysis every day at the med school 100 miles away, so spouse has to quit her job, which changes the calculations, etc., etc.) Also, as part of those calculations you have to realize that you will make less per hour part-time/no-nights at 55 than you did before you cut nights/hours.
 
The majority of the people I see everyday at work.

LOL - good call! You're right... :)

I really like this thread and I really appreciate the white coat investor's posts. I've learned a lot from him over the years. I think that the reality for a lot of emergency physicians is not going to be as good as he describes, but I appreciate the input and, like most of us, I'm always trying to learn to be more financially savvy.

In my case, I finished residency at 35 with student loans and wanted to live in a desirable location. So the idea of going to half nights at 40, none or retired at 50, is pretty unrealistic. Putting all the undesirable shifts on the junior physicians will usually cause them to be resentful, unless there is very good compensation for it. Reducing shifts vastly may cause physicians to lose their benefits. So I think a moderate strategy, and planning for a pretty long haul is a good plan.
 
Seeing dotcb's post made me think of WCI's post in a new way. Instead of taking it as THE plan, think of it as A plan. I'd compare it to planning to RSI a patient that needs definitive airway management. It gives you the best first pass success rate (in this case success=happiness) but there are going to be contraindications and can badly bite you if you don't have a back-up and a back-up to the back-up. Things like a patient having massive airway edema (divorce), morbid obesity with pre-existing lung disease (abnormally high pre-existing loans), and copious secretions (living in a high cost/low pay area due to family obligations) may make you have to alter your plan. If you fail to plan, you may end up having to cric the patient (working 40% night shifts at age 65) which nobody wants to do but is better than the alternative.
 
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Good article, and useful in an ideal world. I can't imagine any group allowing people to work fewer night shifts over 40. I have worked for a CMG where night shifts were mostly eliminated for guys over 50. Not sure how hireable you would be if you said you didn't want to work nights.

As a locums who works 2 blocks of 5 night shifts per month, then takes long vacations, it is nearly ideal, though I'm in my 30's.

Also if you are willing to work all/mostly nights you make yourself indispensable to the group. They will be hesistant to fire you over some BS patient complaint, or low Press-Ganey scores if it means everyone else (including directors) have to work more nights.
 
Don't a lot of groups allow for shift dfferential or buy outs to solve this? I certainly wouldn't support you not workig nights for free just because of your age. But for $40/hr differential? Rest easy old man ;)

You'll need more than a $40/hr differential a lot of places to make nights tempting. We do a $50/hr and no one is picking up extra nights. We could go up to $100/hr differential and I don't think any of us would pick them up either. Some people just aren't crazy about nights no matter what the differential is.
 
I worked nights for 5 years. I have come off and am now in dump my nights mode. I think WCI is 100% spot on. In my old group we had a $40/hr diff but such low starting pay almost every young guy worked those nights.

Fast forward I found a new job, night diff is over $60/hr and only one guy out of 35 or so wants to do nights. That being said I said he can have mine. I literally pay him out of my earnings to work those nights. Truly, I dont care and it doesnt bother me one bit.

I think WCIs point is that working fewer nights should be a goal. when I am 45 I might offer someone $100/hr to work my nights. I dont care, I dont want to work them and my financial needs are less so I can have a better life.

Working nights as I did forced my wife and kids to adapt to my work schedule. They were little and it was necessary. not so much anymore. I moved from averaging 160 hours per month to 120/month clinical with full intention of going to 100-110 in the next 12 months.

The key takeaway from his post is dont need a lot of money and if you dont you can work less, pay people to work your nights etc. I think failure to heed that would lead to a great deal of unhappiness. I married well, I have had great jobs. Dont sell yourself short, dont work some bs CMG job is you can get a decent higher paying job.
 
You'll need more than a $40/hr differential a lot of places to make nights tempting. We do a $50/hr and no one is picking up extra nights. We could go up to $100/hr differential and I don't think any of us would pick them up either. Some people just aren't crazy about nights no matter what the differential is.

Man... If groups want to give 100 over their partner rate...give me buzz and I'll be glad to fill in nights for ya!
I am pushing 40 myself, but I still much prefer nights. Even where I am am FT, where the nights are busy, I stil love it. There is just a certain feel on nights that carries over wherever you are.
But I am a night person anyhow. I stay up late even on "regular" days, to my demise when working day shifts. I am the most productive in the late night, ever since school age.
I expect my body will tell me at some time that this is no good, but I hope not for a while as I really don't like day shifts!
 
Great post and you spoke the truth...

Everyone needs to listen to what The White Coat Investor says. He is spot on and all things discussed works!
 
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Doing nights is the worse for longevity IMO. I have seen Norturnist ED docs and there are very few that can do it for a long period. We pay enough where I didn't have to do a true overnight for 10 yrs. Out of 8 who did mostly nights over that time, 1 still are on nights only and still sane(Count me as impressed). 1 quit completely. 1 got into drug/family problems. The rest quit nights and went back to days. I did a few months of nights straight for family reasons and it SUCKED. Getting off a string of nights sucks b/c your body tells you that you should be awake at 3am. Over those 2 months, I NEVER got more than 5 straight hours of sleep. After a night shift, my body just work up after 4-5 hrs. Then I would nap b/f my night shift. I was in a daze most of the day too.

At 42, In 1-2 yrs, I will hopefully and completely be off nights. Hopefully I can go locums, work 6-10 dys a month and pick the days that I would like to work (weekdays and morning shifts). No more weekends or nights. I can't wait.
 
Do any of you have tips for planning for a divorce? I got married in medical school and there was no prenup as I had nothing but debt and the clothes on by back. I live in a community property state thus the prenup would have been useless. Other than that what are things you can actually do to "plan" that isn't discoverable/is legal?
 
Do any of you have tips for planning for a divorce? I got married in medical school and there was no prenup as I had nothing but debt and the clothes on by back. I live in a community property state thus the prenup would have been useless. Other than that what are things you can actually do to "plan" that isn't discoverable/is legal?

I mentioned this post to my wife and she had some good advice, "clear your browser history, dude."
 
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Wow! Just got back from a canyoneering trip to find all these comments. A couple of responses to comments:

1) Regarding the "who will work all the shifts" issue- same demand, lower supply just increases the price EPs can demand for their services. That's not all bad.
2) Regarding the "it's not realistic to say you won't work nights at 40" and "good luck finding a group that lets you do that" issues-

I've long advocated the market-based system my group uses to determine who works nights. If not enough people want them, we raise the differential. If too many want them, we cut it. That way, the younger guys with more debts and those who don't mind nights so much VOLUNTEER to work them. Nobody is forced to work them. The pre-partners work only their share of them-i.e. if there are 5 shifts, 1/5th of their shifts are overnights.

But no, no partner is volunteering to work them for a $40-50 differential. We pay about 50% more for an overnight shift as for a day shift. So you can either work the same number of shifts and have 50% more pay, or work 1/3 less shifts for the same money. Your choice. But everyone gets exactly the shift mix they sign up for. Want to work all days? Great. Want to work all nights? Also great. Something in between? That works out well too. Of our 5 shifts, I'm the only partner who works more than 3 of them, and I'll soon be down to 3. Many only work 2 of the shifts and 1 only works 1 shift. We tease him that he has the best gig in emergency medicine- same day shift every time, 12 eight hour shifts a month. But it shows when the distributions come out each month.
 
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I agree with that approach. My only point is that you have to account for that in your retirement calculations. If you go from working a substantial fraction of nights at 30, then you have to account for around a 50% drop in income when you go "all-days" at 50. In the same way, someone working 0.5 FTE will generally not earn 50% of the full time salary, unless there are other factors in play - i.e, more nights, short notice, holidays, etc.
 
50% more pay? Good grief. Sign me up dude. If you guys need a nocturnist, I'm so there.

It depends what the baseline is. At 50%, you're definitely going to drive down the daytime hourly to compensate, assuming they are with a CMG that pays everyone out of the collections at the site. Also if they have a heavy RVU component, 50% of the base may not be that much.
 
Don't a lot of groups allow for shift dfferential or buy outs to solve this? I certainly wouldn't support you not workig nights for free just because of your age. But for $40/hr differential? Rest easy old man ;)

I guess in that model. We do not offer differentials for "undesirable shifts". Everyone gets the good and the bad.
 
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I guess in that model. We do not offer differentials for "undesirable shifts". Everyone gets the good and the bad.
That sounds like hurting all the physicians because of a lazy scheduler.....
 
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I think it is important to provide incentives for the "bad shifts". If no one takes them then either raise the incentives or at that point let everyone share in the garbage. When I first finished residency and I worked nights it added 70-80k to my take home pay. At that time it was super worth it to me. Why simply say it must suck for everyone? At the new gig its a flat rate for nights, my life is different and I pay to get out of nights. Its worth it to me now and the new guys are happy to earn a few extra dollars. Everyone is happy rather than everyone has to suck it up.
 
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I think it is important to provide incentives for the "bad shifts". If no one takes them then either raise the incentives or at that point let everyone share in the garbage. When I first finished residency and I worked nights it added 70-80k to my take home pay. At that time it was super worth it to me. Why simply say it must suck for everyone? At the new gig its a flat rate for nights, my life is different and I pay to get out of nights. Its worth it to me now and the new guys are happy to earn a few extra dollars. Everyone is happy rather than everyone has to suck it up.

It's also important to remember that in some markets, like mine, most groups staff both a hospital based ED and a freestanding ED. There is opportunity to transition out of the hospital primarily and work at these sites.

We also have a younger group (no full time doc over 45), marking the night differential less of an issue.
 
It's also important to remember that in some markets, like mine, most groups staff both a hospital based ED and a freestanding ED. There is opportunity to transition out of the hospital primarily and work at these sites.

We also have a younger group (no full time doc over 45), marking the night differential less of an issue.
Thats true, still some people have spouses that are docs or other high wage earners. All I am saying is it is foolish to not establish a market if there is a natural need for one.
 
It's also important to remember that in some markets, like mine, most groups staff both a hospital based ED and a freestanding ED. There is opportunity to transition out of the hospital primarily and work at these sites.

We also have a younger group (no full time doc over 45), marking the night differential less of an issue.


Its never too young to get out of nights. I hit 30 and was given the opportunity to make less while not doing any more nights. Never regretted this. Working sporadic nights really messes you up esp with kids.
 
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5) Low pay?

And about that "inner-city emergency physician" income, I have no idea what Dr. DeBard makes/made. It appears he is at Ohio State College of Medicine as an academic physician. Last I checked, Ohio has about the lowest cost of living in the country. Academics do get paid less than most private practice emergency physicians, especially partners. But it's hardly poverty wages. The 25th percentile for employee emergency physicians in the 2015 Daniel Sterns Survey was $250K. Let's assume he did even worse than that. We'll call it the equivalent of $200K over his ~35 year career. If he had saved just 20% of that income, that's $40K a year. At 8% a year, that should have grown to nearly $7 Million. Even with a divorce or two he shouldn't be feeling like he has to cut back his lifestyle significantly in order to retire. Remember that with no need to save for retirement or college, no kids at home, no work expenses, no disability or life insurance, and a much lower tax bill, he should be able to retire at the exact same lifestyle on $100K of retirement income. If there is a significant spousal retirement and Social Security, he may need as little as $1-2M in retirement savings to maintain his pre-retirement lifestyle.

If you're curious, you should know that all public university employees have salaries that are public domain (in the case of Ohio State, you can search for anybody here: http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/blog/2015/05/osu-salary-database-updated-for-2015.html). Your point remains valid, even if you use a more conservative estimate than 8%. I think another point is that you really are taking a big salary dip to get into academics - the numbers are available and the differences are astounding.
 
Dude probably doesnt work much at all which is ok but no need to whine about crap pay.

I found a random attending by going to their website, that guy made 323k in 2015. I am unsure how they count their years but it is there. But bottom line even at 280k you can put some money away.
 
For a typical FT EM job, let say 12/12hr shift per month, how many night shift one has to work?
6. If half of all shifts are night shifts (I suppose you could come up with some jack-ss schedule that has 3 12 hrs shifts per day but nobody does), then the average doc will be working half nights. In practice, there's usually at least one doc that wants to do exclusively nights and a site director who's working fewer night shifts then their peers.
 
For a typical FT EM job, let say 12/12hr shift per month, how many night shift one has to work?

Twelve (12-hour) shifts = 144 hours, which is on the high-end for typical hours/month. If you're working 12-hour shifts, then expect to work 10 days/month.

My "new" gig (beginning in January) does 10-hour shifts. I don't expect to work more than 13 days/month, and will moonlight with other shifts in other places.
 
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