Looking like I'll have to re-apply. Feeling confused, hopeless, and lost. What do I do?

[archibaldhaddock]

Hi everyone. I know there's still time in the cycle, but it's not looking good for me. Not so much as a single II.

Here is my list. WA resident.

xxx

Schools at which I am (ostensibly) still in the running (all applications submitted early August):

xxx

Here's my info:

Somewhat non-trad. 26 years old.

cGPA: 3.40
sGPA: 3.35
Completed first two years at CC, then three years at University. Double-majored in Biochemistry and Physics. Sadly, adding the Physics major tanked my GPA and I have a downward trend thanks mostly in part to 300/400-level Physics classes senior year.

Total LizzyM score: 73

MCAT: 522 (130/130/131/131)

State of residence: WA
Race: White

Volunteering:
-200 hours (2018-present) at a local Children's Hospital. Have regularly received positive reviews and at this point work independently after hours.
-60 hours (2017) as a TA for a chemistry class at an underserved high school

Research experience and productivity:
-600 hours (2014-2016) biochemistry research doing a cancer drug candidate screen. No pub. Poster/presentation at symposium.

Shadowing experience:
-40 hours (2017-2018) shadowing clinical oncologist

Other extracurricular activities:
-4000+ hours working in food service full time to support myself throughout undergrad, 2000+ hours of which were as a manager/supervisor
-Have worked full-time as a Project Manager at a chemistry laboratory since graduating in 2017
-Have written in a paid part-time position for a baseball-focused website since 2017, publishing well over 100 articles during that time.

LORS from:
-Boss at chemistry lab
-Supervisor at hospital volunteering
-Biochemistry professor who was my PI at research lab
-Physics professor with whom I took 3 classes



Here is what I think may have gone wrong this cycle:

- My mediocre GPA/high MCAT combination screams "smart, no work ethic".
- Possibly top-heavy school list? I tried to make my list/apply by following WARS, thought I did ok being conservative.
- Limited shadowing experience in just one specialty, no primary care shadowing
- Possibly weak narrative/essays
- I have a conviction for misdemeanor reckless driving that I had to declare on the Primary. This event occurred in May 2017. I tried to follow advice from here: take responsibility for the incident, write about it succinctly, and move past it. Is 2-3 years simply too recent? Do I need to wait longer? How long?

Thanks in advance all.

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[Pluto98]

Its your GPA. Should've applied to more schools. Likely 40+. Best plan for a reapp would be an masters/post bac

 

[archibaldhaddock]

Its your GPA. Should've applied to more schools. Likely 40+. Best plan for a reapp would be an masters/post bac

Maybe. I know it's definitely a weak point, but I am concerned that there is something more going on here. Plenty of people get admitted with the stat combination that I have. Between 50% and 70%.

Source: https://www.aamc.org/system/files/2019-11/2019_FACTS_Table_A-23.pdf

 

[GreenDuck12]

Per your questions above:
- My mediocre GPA/high MCAT combination screams "smart, no work ethic".

A downward trend in GPA is worrisome as well. When did you complete your bio classes/prereqs? Did you take upper division biology courses? if not, would you be interested in doing that? There is no getting around it, a 3.4cGPA and 3.35 sGPA is low and raising those would be helpful. Unfortunately, given your science heavy background, it may be quite a lift.

- Possibly top-heavy school list? I tried to make my list/apply by following WARS, thought I did ok being conservative.

Your list is definitely top heavy (Dartmouth, UCSD, Sinai, NYU, BU, Duke, Mayo, etc), with the other schools being low yield. I say top heavy because at many of the school you applied to you MCAT is at the median or just above it but your GPA is significantly below even the 10% bands for science and cumulative GPA. You definitely need to have a more targeted list of schools where your MCAT is significantly above the median and your GPA is closer to the median.

- Limited shadowing experience in just one specialty, no primary care shadowing

This is a big problem for your state schools, UW heavily recommends minimum of 50 hours of shadowing and UW/WSU are very invested in primary care. If you can get this number up it will open options for you at U of A and U of N. Is this something you would be able to address?

- Possibly weak narrative/essays

Why do you think this?

- I have a conviction for misdemeanor reckless driving that I had to declare on the Primary. This event occurred in May 2017. I tried to follow advice from here: take responsibility for the incident, write about it succinctly, and move past it. Is 2-3 years simply too recent? Do I need to wait longer? How long?

Did this occur when you were 23 or 24?

 

[archibaldhaddock]

Per your questions above:
- My mediocre GPA/high MCAT combination screams "smart, no work ethic".

A downward trend in GPA is worrisome as well. When did you complete your bio classes/prereqs? Did you take upper division biology courses? if not, would you be interested in doing that? There is no getting around it, a 3.4cGPA and 3.35 sGPA is low and raising those would be helpful. Unfortunately, given your science heavy background, it may be quite a lift.

- Possibly top-heavy school list? I tried to make my list/apply by following WARS, thought I did ok being conservative.

Your list is definitely top heavy (Dartmouth, UCSD, Sinai, NYU, BU, Duke, Mayo, etc), with the other schools being low yield. I say top heavy because at many of the school you applied to you MCAT is at the median or just above it but your GPA is significantly below even the 10% bands for science and cumulative GPA. You definitely need to have a more targeted list of schools where your MCAT is significantly above the median and your GPA is closer to the median.

- Limited shadowing experience in just one specialty, no primary care shadowing

This is a big problem for your state schools, UW heavily recommends minimum of 50 hours of shadowing and UW/WSU are very invested in primary care. If you can get this number up it will open options for you at U of A and U of N. Is this something you would be able to address?

- Possibly weak narrative/essays

Why do you think this?

- I have a conviction for misdemeanor reckless driving that I had to declare on the Primary. This event occurred in May 2017. I tried to follow advice from here: take responsibility for the incident, write about it succinctly, and move past it. Is 2-3 years simply too recent? Do I need to wait longer? How long?

Did this occur when you were 23 or 24?

.

 

[candbgirl]

Your nonclinical volunteering is awfully low or at least seems to be. You only mention 60 hours of tutoring Chemistry at an underserved high school. You need at least 100+ hours more in service to the unserved/underserved in your community. Find a soup kitchen or homeless shelter or food bank and start racking up hours. If you have to reapply, ADCOMS will want to see significant improve in your application. Your GPAs are really low for MD but your MCAT is wonderful. The dissonance is hard to explain but it must be dealt with. Taking additional courses would be good, but unlikely to move your GPA because of the probable amount of hours you already have. Your school list is top heavy and like @GreenDuck12 said, your list should focus more on schools closer to your GPA than your MCAT. And you might consider looking at some DO schools too.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Thanks so much for the comprehensive feedback.

-I completed my prereqs in Community College in 2014, and generally had a 3.6-ish GPA. I took upper-division biochemistry, but not biology. I would be interesting in doing a DIY postbac if it's necessary. Ideally I won't have to spend the money and time while also having to work full time, but I'll do it if that's what it takes.

I think its going to be necessary to take some upper level BCPM (mostly biology) courses for a couple reasons. The first is to increase your cGPA and sGPA, ideally to a 3.5. The second is since you mentioned your GPA has a downward trend, taking 3 or 4 semesters of science classes and doing well in them will help dispel the idea that, in your words, you are ""smart, no work ethic". Taking classes while working would be fine, two classes would probably be sufficient for a couple terms. Any idea how many credits of A coursework it would take to raise your cGPA/sGPA to a 3.5? Fortunately, the AMCAS will list post bac classes separately so they will be able to see the upward trend.


- I will be completing some primary care shadowing within the next few months in case I have to re-apply.

This should help. UW and WSU are still going to be competitive, but remember, their mission is mostly to train doctors who will stay in Washington, and Washington has a huge need for primary care. And as I mentioned, it will open options for Arizona and Nevada, though they both would still be difficult to get into. Also, look into volunteering in less fortunate communities to demonstrate both altruism and commitment to helping underserved populations - a big part of the mission statement of many school.

- I am a strong writer, but I am worried I tried too hard to come off as unique and avoid platitudes. A big reason I want to be a doctor is because I want to focus on oncology (I have lost a number of family members to cancer) and my research, volunteering, and some other EC's center on cancer. But I didn't want to write the classic essay and come off as exploiting my personal tragedies for gain.

Personal statements are tough. Without reading your personal statement, my general advice is to not worry about being unique and focus more on telling your story and why a school should want to invest resources in getting to know you better during an interview. I remember reading advice on personal statements that described something to the effect that your goal is not to be in the 5% of memorably excellent personal statements but to avoid the 10% of memorably bad personal statements. While initially laughing at this, I actually think it is excellent advice.

As a side note, personally, I'm skeptical of writing a personal statement that involves stating a specific specialty of interest because it may be problematic at mission oriented schools.

- The incident occurred when I was 23. The judicial process lasted until I was 24. I have no other offenses.
I'll defer on this to someone who is more familiar with how this can impact an application.

 

[Goro]

Hi everyone. I know there's still time in the cycle, but it's not looking good for me. Not so much as a single II.


Thanks in advance all.

To your list of negatives, add "no service to others", ie, no nonclinical volunteering.

The downward GPA trend is what's lethal. And yes, you also aimed way too high, hoping that the MCAT would salvage your app. As you rightly point out, it merely highlighted the difference between the GPAs and the exam score.
Read this:
Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

I suggest SMP or DIY post-bac.
The reckless driving was probably not a factor.

 

[Moko]

Your downward trend and low cGPA/sGPA give me the most pause. Take some additional upper division classes to prove that you can handle the coursework. Keep volunteering during this time period. Apply more broadly next cycle. Your school list is very top heavy. Good luck

 

[archibaldhaddock]

.

 

[jarednogeek]

you proved that you can score well on exams but not that you can excel in the nitty gritty busy work of medical education. service is subpar. Why the physics major if you want to become a doctor? GPA is more important than degree rigor.

 

[Moko]

Thank you very much for the feedback and advice, all. It sounds like I'll need to be doing the following:

- Completing primary care shadowing, probably at least 20-30 hours
- Completing some more non-clinical volunteering
- Completing a few high level BCPM classes (how many?)

@Goro and @Moko A specific question to you as faculty. The reckless driving conviction was pled down from a DUI offense. The actual conviction is for reckless driving. I am extremely remorseful and have taken drastic steps to prevent anything similar from ever happening again. I don't want to minimize the incident or make excuses, but I do want to move past it if possible. Do I need to disclose the nature of the incident during applications? Anyone who does ten minutes of digging will be able to discover the nature of the offense, and I assume it would show up on the background check.

I would recommend keeping the explanation short and sweet. State the facts needed to accurately represent the incident. The use of alcohol does change the way I see such an incident. You should not expect the reviewer to go digging for this or any other information. It's the applicant's job to provide an accurate and representative application. In general, if I see a glaring omission, I assume the worst and evaluate the application based on that.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Thank you very much for the feedback and advice, all. It sounds like I'll need to be doing the following:

- Completing primary care shadowing, probably at least 20-30 hours
- Completing some more non-clinical volunteering
- Completing a few high level BCPM classes (how many?)

if you earned A’s in your classes, how many credits would it take to get your cGPA up to a 3.5 (let me know if you need help calculating this). Not that it is necessarily needed to get to a 3.5 but if you could do it in three, four, or five semesters it might be worth it. Given that you need to counter a downward trend I don’t think one or two semesters will be sufficient. I think it needs to be at least three maybe four. That could look like summer 20, fall 20, spring 21, maybe more, taking two classes per semester. That would be 24 credits which is almost a full year of classes. The challenge with this is you would be delaying applying again till summer 2021 maybe summer 2022. You could apply this coming cycle with The additional shadowing and volunteer hours and may have better results with a targeted list of schools but it wouldn’t have the added benefit of a GPA bump or an upward GPA trend.

 

[KnightDoc]

Thank you very much for the feedback and advice, all. It sounds like I'll need to be doing the following:

- Completing primary care shadowing, probably at least 20-30 hours
- Completing some more non-clinical volunteering
- Completing a few high level BCPM classes (how many?)

@Goro and @Moko A specific question to you as faculty. The reckless driving conviction was pled down from a DUI offense. The actual conviction is for reckless driving. I am extremely remorseful and have taken drastic steps to prevent anything similar from ever happening again. I don't want to minimize the incident or make excuses, but I do want to move past it if possible. Do I need to disclose the nature of the incident during applications? Anyone who does ten minutes of digging will be able to discover the nature of the offense, and I assume it would show up on the background check.

I'm not @Goro or @Moko, but I'll state the obvious -- of course you should fully disclose anything that will be revealed on a subsequent background check. Failing to do so could cause you to have an A rescinded very late in the cycle, and possibly be fatal to your chances of ever becoming a doctor.

Also, you didn't fully disclose the circumstances behind the reckless plea to us before -- did you do so on your apps? If so, it could easily have been as fatal as your downward trend to this cycle, since it's really a two-year old DUI conviction of a 23 year old.

 

[popcorn1096]

Hey! I tried PMing you but I think you have your privacy setting so I can't. Is this your first time applying? Just wanted to say that I remember feeling confused and hopeless too during my first application cycle as I did not gain admission that time around. However, I think being able to critically evaluate your weaknesses and work towards goals that will make you an even better future physician is admirable and builds resiliance. Sounds like you are in the process of doing so, keep your head high!

 

[archibaldhaddock]

if you earned A’s in your classes, how many credits would it take to get your cGPA up to a 3.5 (let me know if you need help calculating this). Not that it is necessarily needed to get to a 3.5 but if you could do it in three, four, or five semesters it might be worth it.

.

 

[KnightDoc]

Sadly I have over 210 credit hours. I would need about 43 credit hours of a 4.0 GPA to raise my cGPA to a 3.5. Slightly less than a year of full-time classes. Certainly not impossible, but I would ideally like to avoid this if possible. I do have feedback appointments with both of my state schools, so I'll be pursuing this route if they deem it advisable.

RE: the reckless driving concerns -- I did not disclose the nature of the incident because if I do not have to, I would obviously prefer not to. As I mentioned, I have taken steps in my own life (i.e., sobriety) to ensure that this does not happen again. I would like to move past it as cleanly as possible.

Understood, but you need to understand you are running a huge risk here. If a background report will reveal that your reckless driving conviction is the result of a guilty plea from an original DUI charge, and you imply on an application that it is the result of "reckless driving" because you are disclosing as little as you think you have to, you run the risk of an adcom concluding that you misled them by omission and all the consequences that might follow from that. Of course, if this would never be exposed on a background report, it's a different story. I'd seek out advice from adcoms here before doing that.

 

[Seihai]

Your application is essentially cookie-cutter in terms of stats. Almost every school you applied to has a good selection of applicants with similar stats (and probably higher GPAs), but most of them probably don't have a reckless driving conviction on their application, especially one that was a DUI-plead down.

If/when you do reapply, you need to aim for schools where your GPA is actually above their 10th percentile. You mention that 50-70% of people with your stats get in, and you're right. However, those people were likely far more reasonable in where they applied given their stats (and probably didn't have a reckless driving conviction hanging over them).

The list you were given several months ago has very little overlap with your current list, and it was ultimately probably far more reasonable: Cramming a physics major into two years tanked my GPA. Am I hosed, or can I apply?

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

I'd recommend a DIY postbacc; you might be cut a little slack if you worked full-time while in school full-time if you are lucky...but that downward GPA trend and the reckless driving incident kind of cancel that out. Get some more nonclinical volunteering in. 30 credits of 3.7+ DIY postbacc should suffice. You'll also be putting some time between that reckless driving incident and your application...maybe adcoms see that as your having been caught doing 100 in a 65, not driving drunk. If you can, get in some kind of virtuous position of responsibility...maybe teacher at an inner-city charter school?

 

[candbgirl]

I love “virtuous position of responsibility.” But it’s true. Maybe team up up with MADD or another program like MADD and go talk to high school kids before prom or during the year about your experience and how it might have caused you to delay your dreams. This might also provide you with a continuing opportunity for nonclinical volunteering.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

It's reckless driving; does the conviction show that alcohol was involved? If not, I don't think it would be a good idea to call attention to that fact. I am not saying to lie at any point in the process...but if people think that you got busted for something like 100 in a 65 best to let sleeping dogs lie. Maybe some other kind of volunteering with at-risk youth might be better. On the other hand, Candbgirl's advice is spot-on if adcoms are going to see that you were intoxicated behind the wheel and pled it down to reckless driving.

 

[KnightDoc]

It's reckless driving; does the conviction show that alcohol was involved? If not, I don't think it would be a good idea to call attention to that fact. I am not saying to lie at any point in the process...but if people think that you got busted for something like 100 in a 65 best to let sleeping dogs lie. Maybe some other kind of volunteering with at-risk youth might be better. On the other hand, Candbgirl's advice is spot-on if adcoms are going to see that you were intoxicated behind the wheel and pled it down to reckless driving.

Great advice -- lie by omission and hope for the best!!!!

Have you ever seen a background report? What makes you think the original charge won't appear on it, in addition to the offense he pled guilty to? What's he suppose to do when he's asked about it after he receives an A when the background report comes back after he has made arrangements to attend? "Oooops -- I didn't want to call attention to it and I didn't realize you'd be able to find out. According to advice I received on SDN, failing to mention something that would change the meaning of something I disclosed isn't really lying. Sorry!!"

 

[Cornfed101]

Its your GPA. Should've applied to more schools. Likely 40+. Best plan for a reapp would be an masters/post bac

Don’t apply to 40 schools under any circumstances. I applied to 30 and it was 10 too many (with similar stats)

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Great advice -- lie by omission and hope for the best!!!!

Have you ever seen a background report? What makes you think the original charge won't appear on it, in addition to the offense he pled guilty to? What's he suppose to do when he's asked about it after he receives an A when the background report comes back after he has made arrangements to attend? "Oooops -- I didn't want to call attention to it and I didn't realize you'd be able to find out. According to advice I received on SDN, failing to mention something that would change the meaning of something I disclosed isn't really lying. Sorry!!"

"Yes, I was caught drunk driving and have maintained sobriety and given back to the community."

I've never seen a background report. @gonnif: any idea how OP should proceed here? Is this the same as a DUI, or different?

 

[KnightDoc]

"Yes, I was caught drunk driving and have maintained sobriety and given back to the community."

I've never seen a background report. @gonnif: any idea how OP should proceed here? Is this the same as a DUI, or different?

For the record, I have never seen one either, but I'm betting that if it's thorough it will have both the original charge, and the outcome. I'm also saying, on a more general, ethical note, that omitting relevant facts is absolutely a form of lying, which, come to think of it, is kind of ironic as you said "I am not saying to lie at any point in the process...but if people think that you got busted for something like 100 in a 65 best to let sleeping dogs lie. (I.e., letting the reader think something that isn't true by omitting relevant facts is LYING!!!)

You really don't need @gonnif to tell you this isn't the same as a DUI, since it's not a DUI conviction, but common sense should tell you it's certainly not driving over the speed limit. It was a DUI stop, and if schools are asking the question they expect an honest answer, not a misleading one. Being allowed to plead to reckless is definitely less serious than being convicted of DUI, but, at least in my premed opinion, lying by omission is unforgivable, and would be a huge deal assuming there is any risk of being caught, which, of course, there is depending on whether or not the people running the background reports are able to pull all available information.

 

[Cornfed101]

This is what an entry from a certifi background check looks like, so it is very likely that it will have the details of the charge and that it was reduced for the sentence.

 

[KnightDoc]

This is what an entry from a certifi background check looks like, so it is very likely that it will have the details of the charge and that it was reduced for the sentence.

View attachment 293667

I KNEW it!!!

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Yep, looks like our hero's got himself a DUI.

 

[KnightDoc]

Yep, looks like our hero's got himself a DUI.

The lesson here is not to lie, or mislead, on these applications if there is ANY chance that the truth is discoverable (which, quite frankly, there always is -- in this case it was really pretty obvious even though you and I did not have first hand knowledge), because just like in politics and in life in general, the cover up is always worse than the sin. Regardless of how OP could spin the reckless conviction if he was upfront and honest about the circumstances, if he would be caught misleading an adcom (by letting "sleeping dogs lie"), there is often no coming back from that in a process and a profession that demands ethics and integrity.

The only "silver lining" here is that OP has no As to lose by not being forthcoming on his apps, and he can learn from this to use in his next cycle, although he now has something else to worry about aside from his grades and his trend.

 

[deleted480308]

For everyone else reading along the three major lessons are:

1. Throw some school’s in your list that you are pretty sure are “beneath you”. They aren’t. It will help avoid burning a year
2. Don’t drink and drive. Ever. Get uber, a cab, an absurdly sober friend or don’t go out. You don’t get to drink and drive
3. Don’t major in anything that hurts your grades. The only sciences you need are mcat prep and prereqs. Take that list and then stuff it into an easy major. You need a good gpa, and not good compared other kids in college, good compared to ambitious type-A premeds.

Good luck on your sobriety OP. I sincerely hope you stick with it

 

[KnightDoc]

Anytime alcohol is involved in any legal circumstance, a lawyer is needed. Paraphrasing, representing yourself means you have an idiot for a client

I am utterly confused what legally happened here
1) were actually CHARGED with a MISDEMEANOR or FELONY DUI? or was it a CITATION / MOVING VIOLATION?
2) if charged, did you appear in a criminal court or a traffic court? Was there a prosecutor involved or was it just you and a cop?
3) if you pled guilty to reckless driving, were you required to attend a program?
4) was there any discussion of the charge being removed/expunged if pleading to lessor
5) some states do not list traffic court issues, even if original charge was DUI, as criminal charge unless there is a conviction
6) since you do not have a criminal conviction, there is no requirement to report this
7) that doesnt mean it wont show up on a report and school decides to rescind which they can do

in short, you an attorney to find out and make sure you arent screwing yourself further

Of course OP needs to consult with an attorney, but I'm not sure what you are confused about.

@Cornfed101 showed us a screenshot from the Certifi background check that shows a driving without insurance misdemeanor charge. Regardless of whether OP's DUI charge is a felony or a misdemeanor, it is going to show on the background check as long as it is in the system anywhere, possibly even if it's expunged, depending on what databases they pull from (do adcoms actually give folks an out for charges that are expunged?-- I've seen plenty of applications in a variety of contexts where disclosure is required even if an incident has been expunged from an official record!).

Also, regardless of whatever court OP appeared in (traffic, cirminal, municipal, People's), he was allowed to plead guilty to reckless driving, but he wasn't driving 30 mph over the speed limit, he was driving under the influence. What's the difference how the state lists the charge? Certifi is going to pick it up; it's no less serious than driving without insurance.

Do you seriously think there is any chance OP would be okay simply disclosing reckless driving (or, even better, saying nothing since it's not a criminal conviction), with no further detail, when Certifi is very likely going to show an original DUI charge, either criminal or traffic, misdemeanor or felony? Odds are it's misdemeanor if he was allowed to plead to reckless, but it's still freaking DUI!!!!

 

[KnightDoc]

That is incorrect. In the screen shot from @Cornfed101 the “charge” there is NOT the original arresting charge. Since it refers to disposition without any other notation, such actual conviction of what specific offense, it is the FINAL charge, the actual criminal charge that the defendant plead guilty to.

in the OPs case, since they plead guilty to reckless driving, that is what “charge” will read, even if initially arrested for DUI.

My series of questions remain

You MIGHT be right, but how do you know it's not the original charge (it absolutely looks like it is the original charge to me -- it has a date, a charge, a disposition date, and a disposition type!), and why do you think only the final charge would be displayed? I guess we could eliminate any doubt by asking @Cornfed101 if it's his, and, if so, whether there was an even more serious original charge that is not disclosed, assuming he'd be willing to disclose now to us!

I'm certainly no expert, but it seems to me, just based on what the screen shot shows (offense/filing date, etc.), that if the original charge was changed, that both charges would be disclosed, not just the final one, for this very reason. After all, how good is the disclosure if a DUI police stop is only disclosed as reckless driving because that's what a prosecutor allowed OP to plead to just to close the case?

Wouldn't you, as the party ordering the background check, want to know everything, not just that the matter was settled for a reckless driving conviction? If not, then just disregard the original charge even if it's disclosed, because you as an adcom only care about criminal convictions, in which case OP has nothing to worry about!!!!

 

[hydrophobicmed]

Great advice -- lie by omission and hope for the best!!!!

Have you ever seen a background report? What makes you think the original charge won't appear on it, in addition to the offense he pled guilty to? What's he suppose to do when he's asked about it after he receives an A when the background report comes back after he has made arrangements to attend? "Oooops -- I didn't want to call attention to it and I didn't realize you'd be able to find out. According to advice I received on SDN, failing to mention something that would change the meaning of something I disclosed isn't really lying. Sorry!!"

just order a certiphi report now for himself.

 

[Cornfed101]

My charge wasn’t altered, so I really don’t know. OP could definitely get one for themself, it gives the option when you order it for medical schools

 

[KnightDoc]

My charge wasn’t altered, so I really don’t know. OP could definitely get one for themself, it gives the option when you order it for medical schools

That's what I thought. I'm not sure why @gonnif thinks it's more complicated than it is. It has a place for a charge and a disposition. I'm not sure what value it would have if original charges were allowed to simply disappear and be replaced by lesser charges, while it seems obvious on its face that the original charge would be displayed while the disposition would reflect the lesser charge.

In this case, assuming OP has an interest in screwing around, he would need to order the report well in advance of ordering it for schools so he can know what it shows so he can craft his primary and secondary accordingly.

 

[KnightDoc]

Since the AAMC, like all users of Certiphi, tailors its reports, it only gets information on felony or misdemeanor CONVICTIONS. Reporting any additional charges, be it original arrest, original prosecution complaint, any dropped, or dismissed charge would be a violation of what AAMC states and what applicants sign for. The CHARGE on report is what any court adjudicates, being pleading, found guilty, nolo contendere, or etc and the DISPOSITION is what the court decides on that charge.

If someone was arrested say at party and got in an argument with a cop. The cop is pissed off and charges him with drunk and disorderly and other crap. Then it turns out he wasnt drinking so the court reduces to disorderly, and for this example, a misdemeanor. If the CHARGE was the initial had drunk and disorderly and the DISPOSITION reads reduced to Disorderly with suspended sentence, wouldnt it be prejudicial for anyone reading the report that drinking was involved when in fact it wasnt and would be challenge in court opening up the requestor to a lawsuit

Now for police and law enforcement, a "rap" sheet would indeed have original charges because it is an ARREST record. The COURT record is included as well but they are from two different systems (or more). Arrests come from a National Arrest database (all LE in a state report all arrests to state, state in turn reports to FBI.). Court records are just that court records. In many, if not most states, the report will only list the final disposition with charge at conviction. You would have to go back to the court proceedings for the case, to find out where it started, what was dropped, etc.

Oh, so you're saying Certiphi sends a customized report to AAMC, as opposed to simply pulling from a database? If so, that's very different, and I guess they'd never see the original charge if AAMC would consider it prejudicial and wouldn't want to see it.

 

[KnightDoc]

It would be prejudicial and open to law suit

How so? It's a public record.

 

[Goro]

How so? It's a public record.

Since when has that ever stopped a lawyer with a disgruntled client?

 

[KnightDoc]

Since when has that ever stopped a lawyer with a disgruntled client?

It's true that anyone can sue at any time for any reason, but insurance companies use credit scores to determine rates in certain states, and, as you know, schools have absolute discretion to make whatever admission decisions they want, as long as they don't discriminate in a prohibited manner.

Surely using publicly available information, such as a background report that pulls from any and all publicly available databases, would not be legally prohibited, and could be as legitimate a basis on which to make an admission decision as quality and quantity of ECs, GPA and MCAT score, or, heaven forbid, selectivity of UG!

The only surefire way to avoid the risk of litigation would be to admit everyone.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

This looks to be above all of our pay grades except maybe the adcoms'. Consult a lawyer.

 

[archibaldhaddock]

Anytime alcohol is involved in any legal circumstance, a lawyer is needed. Paraphrasing, representing yourself means you have an idiot for a client

I am utterly confused what legally happened here
1) were actually CHARGED with a MISDEMEANOR or FELONY DUI? or was it a CITATION / MOVING VIOLATION?
2) if charged, did you appear in a criminal court or a traffic court? Was there a prosecutor involved or was it just you and a cop?
3) if you pled guilty to reckless driving, were you required to attend a program?
4) was there any discussion of the charge being removed/expunged if pleading to lessor
5) some states do not list traffic court issues, even if original charge was DUI, as criminal charge unless there is a conviction
6) since you do not have a criminal conviction, there is no requirement to report this
7) that doesnt mean it wont show up on a report and school decides to rescind which they can do

in short, you an attorney to find out and make sure you arent screwing yourself further

.

 

[KnightDoc]

Hi @gonnif, @sb247, @Goro, and others

Apologies for my lateness to this thread, there had not been traffic on it in some time and I had not checked back.

To answer these questions:

1. I was originally charged with MISDEMEANOR DUI.
2. I appeared in criminal court. I was prosecuted by my city.
3. I initially pled NOT GUILTY to DUI. I completed a drug dependency eval with an independent third party, and was determined not to have any dependencies. That said, I voluntarily chose to remain sober and complete regular drug/alcohol testing as a show of good faith on the advice of my attorney.
4. There was no discussion of removal/expungement. I plan on consulting my attorney on the feasibility of this, regardless of whether I need to re-apply. I know that this may come up again during residency applications, should I be fortunate enough to get that far.
5. x
6. I was convicted (pled guilty) to MISDEMEANOR RECKLESS DRIVING. The charge was amended by the prosecuting office after I wrote a letter to the prosecuting office expressing intense remorse, taking responsibility, detailing what measures I was taking to prevent a recurrence, and asking for leniency. I wrote this letter on the advice of my attorney.
7. x

The source of my confusion is the way that this question is worded on the AMCAS Primary Application.

"Please explain the circumstances of your conviction, including the number of conviction(s), the nature of offense(s) leading to conviction(s), date and location of conviction(s), the sentence(s) imposed, and the type(s) of rehabilitation."


I would also like to clarify that I am aware I made a colossal moral failing that night that many consider to be unforgivable. I in no way want to minimize this event or my failing, and the events of that night caused my to seriously re-evaluate my own perception of my character. I have since taken measures to change as a person to prove, primarily to myself, that this will NOT happen again, and that it is not representative of my character.


I would also like to address comments regarding my choice of major. I did not choose to add a physics major in order to impress admissions committees, nor was I under the impression that a difficult or strenuous major would look impressive. I added the physics major because I was genuinely interested in physics at the time. I did not make the decision to pursue medicine until after graduation.

Your contrition and remorse are admirable, and will likely serve you well as you explain your situation. I just don't understand your confusion, since you have very articulately spelled out the sequence of events in your post.

What do you not understand about the AMCAS questions that asks: "Please explain the circumstances of your conviction, including the number of conviction(s), the nature of offense(s) leading to conviction(s), date and location of conviction(s), the sentence(s) imposed, and the type(s) of rehabilitation"?

Can you really, honestly say you don't understand how you came to plead guilty to reckless driving, and the nature of the offense that led to that conviction?? By the way, the honest answer to this question does not change depending on what does or doesn't appear on your Certiphi report.

 

[archibaldhaddock]

Your contrition and remorse are admirable, and will likely serve you well as you explain your situation. I just don't understand your confusion, since you have very articulately spelled out the sequence of events in your post.

What do you not understand about the AMCAS questions that asks: "Please explain the circumstances of your conviction, including the number of conviction(s), the nature of offense(s) leading to conviction(s), date and location of conviction(s), the sentence(s) imposed, and the type(s) of rehabilitation." Can you really, honestly say you don't understand how you came to plead guilty to reckless driving and the nature of the offense that led to that conviction?? By the way, the honest answer to this question does not change depending on what does or deson't appear on you Certiphi report.

.

 

[KnightDoc]

My questions have been consistently directed at admissions committee members or faculty, as they are the ones who have seen these reports, seen applications, and will be able to give me advice in the most informed manner.

Rest assured that I very much appreciate the time you have taken to respond to me, but I would prefer not to take advice from fellow pre-meds on this matter.

Okay! Good luck!!

 

[archibaldhaddock]

This is what I am still confused about. You pled guilty to misdemeanor dui but were you fact convicted of that? If the prosecutor amended the charge, (and this the charge that will be on the background report) the actual final conviction may not be misdemeanor. So what was the amended charge? And is this what the actual conviction is? Is it misdemeanor?

.