LOR is a way to weed out introverts

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ZoakRoak

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Pretty much I find the 2+ LOR requirements quite taxing. I have had jobs and have taken courses up to the graduate level. However, I have no built phony relationships with any professor simply for the sake of knowing I need an LOR later on. I had a friendship with one high ranking professor and thus feel comfortable getting an LOR from them. I don't feel comfortable getting a random LOR from a previous supervisor who I have not spoken to in 4 years.

I feel like LORs purposely weed out those who desire to maintain better and closer relationships versus others who are content with maintaining a circle of acquaintances. I don't exactly understand the purpose of them. If a school is big on volunteering then sure, I can understand that. However LoR? Who in their right mind is going to submit something bad? The purpose of the LoR is pretty much discrimination based on social life.

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I feel like LORs purposely weed out those who desire to maintain better and closer relationships versus others who are content with maintaining a circle of acquaintances.

:rolleyes:

You need better and closer relationships to get strong LoRs, regardless of the number. If you really think it's an unreasonable burden to get to know more than one professor/supervisor over your entire college career I don't know what to tell you.
 
How is it discrimination based on social life? You don't need to go out for drinks, check out movies, and take walks on the beach with your professors. I agree that talking to a professor just to get a LOR later sounds phony, but you don't have to approach it that way. If you have a class that is interesting to you(upper level classes are good for this!), you'll have an easier time talking about it with a professor during office hours. You don't have to go to every office hour week and take up the entire time, but on occasion. They'll know you exist, that you enjoy the material they teach, and they might like you as a person so that when you ask them for a LOR, they won't squint and go "Um...who are you again?".
 
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Pretty much I find the 2+ LOR requirements quite taxing. I have had jobs and have taken courses up to the graduate level. However, I have no built phony relationships with any professor...

I feel like LORs purposely weed out those who desire to maintain better and closer relationships versus others who are content with maintaining a circle of acquaintances....

The purpose of the LoR is pretty much discrimination based on social life.

I know, right? I mean, what kind of medical school expects a future doctor to meet with multiple people in a day and make them feel like they can have a positive working relationship and that their needs are understood?

So draconian!
 
I know, right? I mean, what kind of medical school expects a future doctor to meet with multiple people in a day and make them feel like they can have a positive working relationship and that their needs are understood?

So draconian!

So, better to be phony with people than care more for building less but more meaningful relationships? Yea, just what I need, a doctor that acts like a fraud to me.
 
It's not really too hard to get a letter of rec. All you need to do is participate in class and attend a few office hours. Then if you volunteer and do a good job, the supervisor should give a letter. You have to be way too introverted (beyond normal) or full of social anxiety not to get a letter, which either way you wouldn't survive on the interview or in medical school.

P.S. I'm an intp and got about 8 letters of rec.

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So, better to be phony with people than care more for building less but more meaningful relationships? Yea, just what I need, a doctor that acts like a fraud to me.

If you really think it's not possible in FOUR YEARS to build more than one non-phony relationship with a professor you're doing something wrong.
 
It's not really too hard to get a letter of rec. All you need to do is participate in class and attend a few office hours. Then if you volunteer and do a good job, the supervisor should give a letter. You have to be way too introverted (beyond normal) or full of social anxiety not to get a letter, which either way you wouldn't survive on the interview or in medical school.

P.S. I'm an intp and got about 8 letters of rec.

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Yes I would as it's just acting. As we all know, plenty of actors have tons of issues and yet act fine. You should try a technical interview where you can't act.
 
Pretty much I find the 2+ LOR requirements quite taxing. I have had jobs and have taken courses up to the graduate level. However, I have no built phony relationships with any professor simply for the sake of knowing I need an LOR later on. I had a friendship with one high ranking professor and thus feel comfortable getting an LOR from them. I don't feel comfortable getting a random LOR from a previous supervisor who I have not spoken to in 4 years.

I feel like LORs purposely weed out those who desire to maintain better and closer relationships versus others who are content with maintaining a circle of acquaintances. I don't exactly understand the purpose of them. If a school is big on volunteering then sure, I can understand that. However LoR? Who in their right mind is going to submit something bad? The purpose of the LoR is pretty much discrimination based on social life.

I'm an introvert and had no problem getting LORs. I had 7.

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You seem to think everything is discrimination. First URMs and now this. Stop trolling and go back to your real account.

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So, better to be phony with people than care more for building less but more meaningful relationships? Yea, just what I need, a doctor that acts like a fraud to me.

Weak LOR are based on your relationship with a writer. Strong LOR are based on what skills you bring to the table based on productivity that the writer can talk about. You should not be trying to get letters from professors that you took a class with, they add nothing to your application.

Strong letters require the person to know who you are. If the person doesn't know your name or your work, they can not vouch for you. HOWEVER, eople often confuse a letter that says nice things about you with a strong letter. To quote one of the Wash U faculty adcoms, if someone says that you are "nice" talks about how well you get along, they didn't have something more substantial to talk about in their limited space.

If you do nothing of substance in your 4 years in undergrad, it will be very difficult to get strong LOR. Your introversion/extraversion is a variable on how easy it is to get A LOR. It does not help you get a GOOD LOR.
 
Also, a pet peeve of mine...

introverts does not = asocial

:mad:
 
So, better to be phony with people than care more for building less but more meaningful relationships? Yea, just what I need, a doctor that acts like a fraud to me.

No, you have to actually care about other people to be a good doctor, unless you plan on becoming a medical examiner or a pathologist. If it's fraudulent for you to be personable and empathetic, then maybe medicine is not the right career path for you.
 
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I'm an introvert and had no problem getting LORs. I had 7.

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This, only I had 6. I'm really introverted, but realized that I would have to put myself out there to get another "check off the box" for my apps.
 
No, you have to actually care about other people to be a good doctor, unless you plan on becoming a medical examiner or a pathologist. If it's fraudulent for you to be personable and empathetic, then maybe medicine is not the right career path for you.

Right, because showing fake empathy and building loose connections with people of whom who will forget after 5 minutes is the clear sign of someone who really feels for others. I guess people with 300+ friends on Facebook must be destined to be better doctors too.
 
Right, because showing fake empathy and building loose connections with people of whom who will forget after 5 minutes is the clear sign of someone who really feels for others. I guess people with 300+ friends on Facebook must be destined to be better doctors too.

:troll:


:flame::flame:


:lock::lock::lock:
 
Right, because showing fake empathy and building loose connections with people of whom who will forget after 5 minutes is the clear sign of someone who really feels for others. I guess people with 300+ friends on Facebook must be destined to be better doctors too.

Such a relationship would not yield a good LOR.

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I'm a really shy person, but I had Deans of Admissions at interviews complement me on my LORs...
 
Right, because showing fake empathy and building loose connections with people of whom who will forget after 5 minutes is the clear sign of someone who really feels for others. I guess people with 300+ friends on Facebook must be destined to be better doctors too.

Your patients won't forget you after five minutes
 
Also, a pet peeve of mine...

introverts does not = asocial

:mad:

Agreed...

About the thread though, it can be tough to get two quality LORs from science profs, especially if you go to a school where most of your science classes are 200+ kids. And on top of that, what if you have no need to go to office hours? And if you did, what if you didn't get a great grade? However, i think the ADCOMs look more at letters from people who know you better like PIs, profs you worked on projects/in school organizations with, etc.

EDIT: and profs you TAed/worked for. Even if you got a good grade in his/her class, they might focus more on the work you did for them as a TA or something like that.
 
Pretty much I find the 2+ LOR requirements quite taxing. I have had jobs and have taken courses up to the graduate level. However, I have no built phony relationships with any professor simply for the sake of knowing I need an LOR later on. I had a friendship with one high ranking professor and thus feel comfortable getting an LOR from them. I don't feel comfortable getting a random LOR from a previous supervisor who I have not spoken to in 4 years.

I feel like LORs purposely weed out those who desire to maintain better and closer relationships versus others who are content with maintaining a circle of acquaintances. I don't exactly understand the purpose of them. If a school is big on volunteering then sure, I can understand that. However LoR? Who in their right mind is going to submit something bad? The purpose of the LoR is pretty much discrimination based on social life.

How "close" a relationship do you think you need? I did well in a class, participated, attended some office hours and helped classmates, and I considered that good enough....You're LoR doesn't need to give detailed accounts of your personal friendship/professional relationship, and how you've changed him as a person....he just needs to give evidence and explanation as to why he think you'd be a good doctor.
 
You seem to think everything is discrimination. First URMs and now this. Stop trolling and go back to your real account.

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MedPR?! Why do you keep me laughing?! For real though; initially I didn't even look at the name of the person that started the thread. Then there was your response :thumbup:

TROLL!!
 
How "close" a relationship do you think you need? I did well in a class, participated, attended some office hours and helped classmates, and I considered that good enough....You're LoR doesn't need to give detailed accounts of your personal friendship/professional relationship, and how you've changed him as a person....he just needs to give evidence and explanation as to why he think you'd be a good doctor.

+1

The letters are more to evaluate the student based on academic capability (ex. does the student probe their understanding of the subject by talking with the professor or just passively learns). It is pretty much the reason why three academic letters are required for most medical schools.
 
Right, because showing fake empathy and building loose connections with people of whom who will forget after 5 minutes is the clear sign of someone who really feels for others. I guess people with 300+ friends on Facebook must be destined to be better doctors too.

Despise not the player.

Rather, have disdain for his sport.

(btw, my professors and I have genuine relationships, PhDs are typically very interesting people. It sounds like you just hate people)
 
+1

The letters are more to evaluate the student based on academic capability (ex. does the student probe their understanding of the subject by talking with the professor or just passively learns). It is pretty much the reason why three academic letters are required for most medical schools.

I have your gpa and mcat in front of me. What can a LOR tell me that 3 years of grades and the mcat can't? LOR should not focus on academic prowess. If that is all they can talk about it is going to be a weak letter.
 
I have your gpa and mcat in front of me. What can a LOR tell me that 3 years of grades and the mcat can't? LOR should not focus on academic prowess. If that is all they can talk about it is going to be a weak letter.

But don't most people mainly get academic LORs? IIRC, almost all the schools I applied to said they needed science professor LORs(and 1 non-sci professor) or else your app wont be looked at. I guess you can argue that if you do research with them, it counts. I get what you're saying though, that the letter should talk about other things besides "this person did well in my class!".

Then again, it's been a while, so take this post with a grain of salt :/
 
Also, a pet peeve of mine...

introverts does not = asocial

:mad:

:thumbup: +1

OP is just butthurt again that he didn't prepare adequately for the medical school application process.

Sorry to let OP know, but in medicine you are expected to work with people, including building those "phony" relationships. If it makes the patient feel better, it matters, even if you don't consider them a trusted friend in the opposite direction.
 
You can't be that intro, Im really intro and got 4 letters.


Do better.
 
But don't most people mainly get academic LORs? IIRC, almost all the schools I applied to said they NEEDED science professor LORs(and 1 non-sci professor) or else your app wont be looked at. I guess you can argue that if you do research with them, it counts. I get what you're saying though, that the letter should talk about other things besides "this person did well in my class!".

I had a chance to read two of my academic LORs and, among other things, they both talked about my ability to work well with my classmates and my willingness to help students who were struggling when I was not. They also mentioned non-academic things based on my interactions with them in office hours.

I spent enough time with these professors that they were able to get a good idea of who I was as a person and not just a student. Mimelim might disagree, but I think that is the key to getting a "strong" LOR from a professor.
 
How "close" a relationship do you think you need? I did well in a class, participated, attended some office hours and helped classmates, and I considered that good enough....You're LoR doesn't need to give detailed accounts of your personal friendship/professional relationship, and how you've changed him as a person....he just needs to give evidence and explanation as to why he think you'd be a good doctor.
Well, despite the OP's hostility, there's some merit to his/her claims -

Letters from PI's aside, letters from Prof.'s who taught us for a semester are problematic. Yes, they help us meet the schools' requirements, but the content will probably not help the applicant that much (I actually had someone at UCSF's admissions office tell me that for people like me, who work almost full time, they won't put a lot of weight on the more trivial letter).

There are many Pre-Meds, including myself, that know that they need to get a LOR from a Prof. even though we might not be particularly interested in the material, nor do we really have the time to go to their OH's. In a lower div. science class of over 800 students, or an upper div. of 200+, what on earth can they write? NOTHING!!!! that's why a Prof. actually told me that their TA will write the letter, and the Prof. will sign it, or co-sign it, or some variation of that. And this is coming from a Prof. who teaches upper div. biochemistry!

And GBJ, I served as a medic in the military for three years, worked with Dr.'s every single day -- and I just don't see the connection between being a good student and being a good Dr. Well, one needs to be a good student to pass medschool, but being a good student doesn't guarantee you will be a good physician.

But, perhaps this system is built this way because most applicants do apply straight from school, and the amount of different experiences is very different than non-traditional applicants. Perhaps it is my personal experience that teaches me that these letters from Professors I didn't work with closely can't be much more than generic. BTW, Professors actually have LOR templates! And yes, sometimes all they do is just change the name - nothing more.
 
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And GBJ, I served as a medic in the military for three years, worked with Dr.'s every single day -- and I just don't see the connection between being a good student and being a good Dr. Well, one needs to be a good student to pass medschool, but being a good student doesn't guarantee you will be a good physician.

B

Yeah, work ethic, a commitment to learning, and the ability to understand new information definitely wouldn't correlate to being a good physician. :confused:
 
And GBJ, I served as a medic in the military for three years, worked with Dr.'s every single day -- and I just don't see the connection between being a good student and being a good Dr. Well, one needs to be a good student to pass medschool, but being a good student doesn't guarantee you will be a good physician.

lol what
 
But don't most people mainly get academic LORs? IIRC, almost all the schools I applied to said they needed science professor LORs(and 1 non-sci professor) or else your app wont be looked at. I guess you can argue that if you do research with them, it counts. I get what you're saying though, that the letter should talk about other things besides "this person did well in my class!".

Then again, it's been a while, so take this post with a grain of salt :/

Science LOR does not have to be someone you took a class with. Also, my point is that you can have someone that you took a class with write a letter, but there should be something else, TAing for them, taking multiple classes, doing research with them etc.

Realize that these aren't BAD letters that people are getting. They are WEAK letters. LOR aren't going to sink you in medical school applications. But, they have the capacity to help you tremendously, primarily because a lot of people think, "did well in class, must be good letter" or "They liked me and will say I'm a nice guy, must be a good letter". You have to use what you can get. My point is that if you see 90% of the threads on here people will say, I have good ECs and good LOR when in reality they have zero clue what a strong letter looks like. Just because someone raves about you doesn't make it a strong letter. I've said it before, but it comes down to 3 things. 1) How well they know you (their credibility) 2) What they can vouch for (What skills or achievements they saw from you) and 3) Who they are (Chairman of department has seen a lot more students in his time than a junior faculty, if you wow him, you are probably someone to look at.

When I read an application, I'm not looking for a LOR to say that the person was nice, strong academically, they work hard, they work well with others etc. I'm looking for what else do they bring to the table. What tangible skills make them superior to the other people with similar scores/grades. Are they a good communicator (exemplified by teaching in any form). Are they a problem solver? Are they a go getter? Are they someone with skill sets that are going to make them valuable members of my medical school class? I could care less if someone thought you were nice. You wouldn't have picked them as a letter writer if that wasn't at least a minimum!

I had a chance to read two of my academic LORs and, among other things, they both talked about my ability to work well with my classmates and my willingness to help students who were struggling when I was not. They also mentioned non-academic things based on my interactions with them in office hours.

I spent enough time with these professors that they were able to get a good idea of who I was as a person and not just a student. Mimelim might disagree, but I think that is the key to getting a "strong" LOR from a professor.

This is what I am talking about. Skills: 1) Ability to recognize (diagnose) a problem - struggling student, 2) Ability to come up with a plan to fix the problem, 3) Confidence and ability to enact that plan 4) Ability to achieve results in this type of problem - other students benefit 5) Shows concern for others AND does something about it (compassion). That is 5 tangible skills that not everyone can demonstrate and have verified by two people. If you collect enough people chiming in about your various skillsets, you will significantly benefit from your LOR.
 
If you really think it's not possible in FOUR YEARS to build more than one non-phony relationship with a professor you're doing something wrong.

...or attending a large public university. Either is a possibility.
 
Yeah, work ethic, a commitment to learning, and the ability to understand new information definitely wouldn't correlate to being a good physician. :confused:
Well, obviously the sentence that followed didn't do the job - being all those things that you mentioned is not exclusive to physicians - how about lawyers/scientists/economists/engineers of every sort/etc. Do you not need to have a good work ethic, or continually keep learning to be successful in these professions?

A Prof. whom you did not work with cannot provide an accurate description of you as a person because that relationship is largely based on the need of the applicant to receive a LOR. And the range of situations in which you interact is quite limited.

Thanks for the sarcasm though! It always helps to further a discussion!
 
Well, obviously the sentence that followed didn't do the job - being all those things that you mentioned is not exclusive to physicians - how about lawyers/scientists/economists/engineers of every sort/etc. Do you not need to have a good work ethic, or continually keep learning to be successful in these professions?

A Prof. whom you did not work with cannot provide an accurate description of you as a person because that relationship is largely based on the need of the applicant to receive a LOR. And the range of situations in which you interact is quite limited.

Thanks for the sarcasm though! It always helps to further a discussion!

A good physician needs to be a good student. However I agree that not all good students become good physicians.
 
Yes I would as it's just acting. As we all know, plenty of actors have tons of issues and yet act fine. You should try a technical interview where you can't act.
It sounds like the problem with you is not one of being an introvert. Your problem is your ability to make relationships with people. If you're not able, that's on you. It has nothing to do with introversion. I still stay in contact with many of my letter writers, and those that I wasn't close with, we still had a very good professional relationship and wouldn't hesitate to work for them again if given the chance.
 
Okay, certainly not the majority. My point was that that shouldn't be the only part of your relationship with the writer.

Yeah I understand. Sorry if my response seemed snobby. I just remember being surprised by how strict this school's letter requirements are.
 
And GBJ, I served as a medic in the military for three years, worked with Dr.'s every single day -- and I just don't see the connection between being a good student and being a good Dr. Well, one needs to be a good student to pass medschool, but being a good student doesn't guarantee you will be a good physician.

I think this is a non-factor, because most undergraduate professors don't know what makes a good doctor. I said they are able to verbalize qualities they witnessed in you that they think would make you a good doctor.

Well, despite the OP's hostility, there's some merit to his/her claims -

Letters from PI's aside, letters from Prof.'s who taught us for a semester are problematic. Yes, they help us meet the schools' requirements, but the content will probably not help the applicant that much (I actually had someone at UCSF's admissions office tell me that for people like me, who work almost full time, they won't put a lot of weight on the more trivial letter).

There are many Pre-Meds, including myself, that know that they need to get a LOR from a Prof. even though we might not be particularly interested in the material, nor do we really have the time to go to their OH's. In a lower div. science class of over 800 students, or an upper div. of 200+, what on earth can they write? NOTHING!!!! that's why a Prof. actually told me that their TA will write the letter, and the Prof. will sign it, or co-sign it, or some variation of that. And this is coming from a Prof. who teaches upper div. biochemistry!

...

But, perhaps this system is built this way because most applicants do apply straight from school, and the amount of different experiences is very different than non-traditional applicants. Perhaps it is my personal experience that teaches me that these letters from Professors I didn't work with closely can't be much more than generic. BTW, Professors actually have LOR templates! And yes, sometimes all they do is just change the name - nothing more.

I didn't get any of my letters from professors who had over 800 students. They all came from upper-level courses of 10-30 students.

My argument is that you don't need professors to tell adcoms that you are god's gift to science with a diamond bow tie on your head. I imagine my professors were able to speak of my academic honesty, integrity, performance, maturity and of my interactions with him, my classmates, and also more intangibles like intellectual curiosity, work ethic, etc. Maybe they gave specific examples. I liked and respected my professors, and I believe they liked and respected me as well. I don't think a transcript can replace these LORs, because plenty of people sneak off with good grades with minimal effort, cut-throat behavior, cutting class and sloppy assignments.

My professor letters probably weren't as good as someone who constructed some "relationship" with his professor, be it genuine or dishonest, and sat at his doorstop and in his lab like a lost puppy every day for a couple semesters. I chose to devote my time and effort elsewhere, and ended up with superb letters from my clinical experiences.
 
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Letters of recommendation are going to be so painfully awkward. I went to office hours literally twice in my entire college career. I already have one LOR, now I just need to get three more.
 
I know, right? I mean, what kind of medical school expects a future doctor to meet with multiple people in a day and make them feel like they can have a positive working relationship and that their needs are understood?

So draconian!

There is no collaboration or back and forth like you would see in a work environment. The professor lectures or tests, the student listens or answers test questions. I couldn't bring myself to walk into a professor's office and pose questions as a segue into a meaningless personal conversation -- about what, I have no idea because I sure as hell have nothing in common with a 50 year old PhD holder -- for the purpose of a crappy letter of recommendation. The whole setup would have been painfully awkward and stupid.
 
I think this is a non-factor, because most undergraduate professors don't know what makes a good doctor. I said they are able to verbalize qualities they witnessed in you that they think would make you a good doctor.



I didn't get any of my letters from professors who had over 800 students. They all came from upper-level courses of 10-30 students.

My argument is that you don't need professors to tell adcoms that you are god's gift to science with a diamond bow tie on your head. I imagine my professors were able to speak of my academic honesty, integrity, performance, maturity and of my interactions with him, my classmates, and also more intangibles like intellectual curiosity, work ethic, etc. Maybe they gave specific examples. I liked and respected my professors, and I believe they liked and respected me as well. I don't think a transcript can replace these LORs, because plenty of people sneak off with good grades with minimal effort, cut-throat behavior, cutting class and sloppy assignments.

My professor letters probably weren't as good as someone who constructed some "relationship" with his professor, be it genuine or dishonest, and sat at his doorstop and in his lab like a lost puppy every day for a couple semesters. I chose to devote my time and effort elsewhere, and ended up with superb letters from my clinical experiences.
I can agree with this. However, I think that class size plays a significant role. What I wrote about the professor telling me that the TA will write the letter, was not a figment of my imagination. But, I suppose that in a class of 10-30 students there is no need for this to happen, and the Prof. can write a personal letter.
So it seems that our ability to acquire a good letter from a college professor is quite different (and depends on the college we go to, and our academic paths), and our approach to this is different as well. Therefore, I do not expect a Prof. in one of my classes to be able to write about me in the way that you described. And I think that this specific issue is what makes the process, at least for me, to appear at times somewhat pointless - to fulfill a bureaucratic need.

Also, for those us (including myself) that major in something other than science, and don't always have the opportunity to take more than one upper division science class (due to unit cap, being a transfer student, etc.), there aren't many opportunities to interact with professors with smaller class sizes. These factors can lead to a very different view on this process.

Like you, I expect to receive (haven't done it yet) the best LORs from my commander (who's also a physician), possibly other physicians I served with, my PI, and other clinical/volunteer experiences.
I actually called UCSF's admissions office and they told me not to worry too much about it - they understand that there are applicants out there with a life similar to mine (in terms of current obligations - wife, work, baby, mortgage), and it seems that they almost expect luke-warm letters from college professors. However, we still need to get them.

I do realize that what I described doesn't apply to everyone, so there's no need to respond to this as if this is an absolute truth.
 
You'd be surprised who you can dig up a LOR from if you really think about who you've interacted with.

As long as you have 3 science professors, you are set on the last two. They can be just about anyone, really, as long as they know your work ethic.

Did you do an EC with someone? Volunteered? Worked at a job?

Oogie
 
LORs need to be removed from the application process of every grad school in the nation IMO.

their only purpose is to discover "red flags" about applicants that devious professors may include. they don't really provide any unique information considering that proper LORs are always overwhelmingly positive.

moreover, why would any student even want to interact with a professor if he/she is doing well in the class? you go to the professor when you need help...approaching him/her for small talk is so lame.
 
Not introverts per se, but rather people who don't make great connections with others
 
Removing them from every grad school application process? That seems a bit extreme :laugh:

Mimelim has a good summary of what people look for, which is more than "red flags". I don't get why people want to get rid of needing LORs completely, it's not like it's rocket science to acquire. I hope people don't complain when they need to get 3 rec letters for residency apps...
 
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