LORs

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SurgeryChef

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I apologize if this has been convered in another thread, but was wondering about timing of LORs relative to submitting ERAS. It seems like a good idea to ERAS earlier rather than later, but what if you're doing a Sub-I in September that you want a letter from? Do you have to submit both at the same time or can the letters follow later? Just trying to plan my 4th year schedule... any help would be appreciated! 😀
 
You can submit ERAS, then upload the letters as they come in. They don't all have to be in by Sept 1st for you to submit ERAS on Sept 1st - just try not to leave them all until the last minute, though, b/c some programs start reviewing your app and inviting people to interview as soon as they receive completed files.
 
I didnt get invited to some interviews because I delayed submitting my app until the first week of October. The programs all downloaded in September and started inviting by Oct 1 based on grades and CV, they were competiting for good applicants since many have the same dates some invite early.

I was on an away in Sept, and stayed another month in Oct, asked for a letter the first week of November, the letter was in my file by Dec 1. You may wonder what the value of that letter was - the actual interviews werent until mid Dec to late Jan - so I made sure that the program coordinators downloaded my uploaded application and added the letter to my file before going to interview - so all the interviewers read the letters before the rank meeting. The letter helped alot.

I also contacted programs who rejected me, expressed my continued interest in their program, and asked them to reevaluate my updated application.
I got several more interviews after adding the new letter.

Good luck. Do the away, you can change your letter writers late if you get new letters from someone famous after your away.
 
I'd grab the letters asap. There were a few interviews I almost missed out on because one of my LORs was very late in being uploaded. Said programs did not consider my application 'complete' until it came in. Like Ergo though, the two I waited on were well worth it.
 
Thanks for all the responses! The unfortunate part is the rotation I want the letter from is at my home school - my lotery picks for MS4 year were really bad so I can't do this rotation till September. Maybe if I meet with the doctor ahead of time and tell him I'll be on his service it might speed things up?
 
SurgeryChef said:
Thanks for all the responses! The unfortunate part is the rotation I want the letter from is at my home school - my lotery picks for MS4 year were really bad so I can't do this rotation till September. Maybe if I meet with the doctor ahead of time and tell him I'll be on his service it might speed things up?
sure if you have access to him, contact him. but september is not too late. i got a letter from my september rotation in plenty of time. applications are not complete until dean's letters go out in november. so i didn't get letters from my october and november rotations (even though i got offers), but my one from september came in with plenty of time and had no adverse effect on my interviews. you'll be fine.
 
Ask for your letters either during or right at the end of the rotation. Give the surgeon all your info, and a SASE so she/he can send a copy to you. Secure as many letters as you can. There might be one or two that don't stand out like the rest and you'll want to withhold them. That's what I did anyway.....

I BETTER MATCH!!!!!!! :scared:
 
Hi, a september rotation is no problem! You can get a letter in time, it ideally will be submitted to your school by the last week of October (giving the faculty 3 weeks to write it after your rotation ends). The programs upload the application Nov 1, and thats when they expect letters to be in your file. Like I said before, I got one from an October rotation, and it still was read in time for interviews.

The above posters are right, ask for more letters than you need, then target them appropriately. For example, a guy who is big at your school or in your state but not known nationally - his letter is good in those places, but dont send it coast to coast unless you must. If you have a letter from someone who trained at at particular program or with someone on faculty there, use that letter there.

Heres how I got the LORs from away rotations that made my application much stronger. Im adding this because its important to make your intentions known early in a visiting rotation, and even at your home rotation, otherwise they might not really notice you or your hard work and wont be able to write the best letter possible.
So, Im adding the approach that worked for me, so Im adding it because I think this kind of info would have been helpful to me last year.

On a visiting rotation:
I met with the letter writing target at the end of the first week of the rotation. So, that means I had to set up an appointment before I got there, since it takes a few weeks to ge an appointment with some busy faculty.
Anyway, in that meeting I introduced myself, told them how happy I was to have the opportunity to rotate at their program, why I was interested in their program specifically (2 sentences), and a one liner about my career goals.
I gave the writer a current copy of my CV at that time, and told him that my Chairman suggested I ask for a letter, because they thought that letter would be very helpful to my application. I then asked them the key question:
"Dr. ---, If I do a very good job on this rotation, do you feel comfortable writing me a strong letter of recommendation in support of my application to --- surgery?" So, this way they know who I am, they know I intend to ask for a letter, so they watched me a bit more the next few weeks, and ask residents about me perhaps. That gave me one week under the radar to get oriented, and three to shine.
At the end of that meeting I set up the next meeting with their secretary, during the middle of the last week onthe service - like Thurs (that way if it gets cancelled, just reschedule for Fri)
On the rotation, I tried to be early, read for cases, act interested (easy, because I am interested) have a positive attitude, dont say anything negative about anyone/anything if possible, try to relax and joke around a bit so residents can see that they'd like you on the team, know that nothing they ask you to do is scut during an audition rotation, try to anticipate their needs (pick up the OR schedule for tomorrow before asked or whatever) and dont leave until all the cases are done for the day and all rounds are over.
The last week, at the meeting, I brought another CV, in case they asked for it, and I told the writer: "Ive had a great experience as a visiting student here at xxx University, your program has exceeded my higest expectations, I am especially impressed by 1., 2., and 3. (briefly, like one compound sentence)"
Then I said, "Dr. xxx based on my work during this rotation do you feel comfortable writing me a strong letter of recommendation in support of my application to xxx surgery?"

This worked, even with a guy who supposedly does not write LOR for visiting students. Hope it helps.
 
As the others have all mentioned, rotating in Sept will give you more than enough time to have a letter in by Nov. 1. Since it can take a while to set up meetings with these types, I would try to call early and set up a meeting about 3 weeks into your rotation. Bring them a packet with all your info (present yourself professionally). Trust me, it's not going to surprise them that you're asking for a letter.
That being said, make sure you stay on your writers' tails. I actually missed out on several interviews for the following reasons:
1. I didn't get my app in until first week of Oct (d/t time-consuming surg sub-i's)
2. I had 3 letter-writers who didn't get their letters in until Nov. 3-4, when many of my deadlines were Nov. 1. This is despite thank-you notes, calls, etc.
As the others said, while many programs don't evaluate apps until the Dean's letters come out, some solid ones (Louisville + Ohio State, for ex.) more-or-less filled up their interview spots by mid October.
2 weeks to go...I feel like I'm turning into a psych patient - little voices in my head, perseveration, etc.
sd
 
great advice guys.

does anyone know of cases where LORs helped getting an interview?
 
automaton said:
great advice guys.

does anyone know of cases where LORs helped getting an interview?


Yes, of course, if they are strong letters, especially from people who are well known they are always a factor in receiving interviews.


Theyre so important that I had 4 rejections reversed after my biggest VIP letters were in the file.

After passing a Step 1 cutoff set by the program, its all about your letters.
 
wow that's pretty amazing. did they reverse the rejections themselves or did you have to notify them of your new VIP letter?
 
automaton said:
wow that's pretty amazing. did they reverse the rejections themselves or did you have to notify them of your new VIP letter?

Because this letter came in SUPER late, I wrote every program who didnt aready invite me, and every program who rejected me. I wrote one note to the 'program coordinator' (the program director's secretary) and told them I had a new letter in support of my application from Dr. xxx xxx, told them why I was specifically interested in their program (2 sentences) and asked them to please upload the new letters and add them to the file so that they would be available if they decide to reconsider my application. I also sent letters to the PD similar verbage, but instead of asking them to add to file I simply told them about new letter, why I was interested(briefly) and asked them to reconsider my application. It worked. Good luck.
 
Thanks - all your comments are super helpful and I don't feel so bad about the timing of things anymore. One other thing... above LovelyRita talked about reading her LORs. I thought that was a big no-no and you should not ask to see them. Is that not true in surgery?
 
SurgeryChef said:
Thanks - all your comments are super helpful and I don't feel so bad about the timing of things anymore. One other thing... above LovelyRita talked about reading her LORs. I thought that was a big no-no and you should not ask to see them. Is that not true in surgery?
do not ask. submit them as "i waive the right to see this". but if a nice attending lets you see it, lucky you.
 
I followed along with Iserson's recommendations. I didn't have a problem. I didn't even do any "waive the right" stuff. I mean, if they are going to say good things about you, why shouldn't you see them? If they are going to trash you.....then, that's not a letter you want the committee to see anyway.
 
LovelyRita said:
I followed along with Iserson's recommendations. I didn't have a problem. I didn't even do any "waive the right" stuff. I mean, if they are going to say good things about you, why shouldn't you see them? If they are going to trash you.....then, that's not a letter you want the committee to see anyway.
i disagree. as did all my advisors.
stupid as it is, you must waive the right to see these things in order to get the entrez to big programs. otherwise, they have suspicion.
stupid, granted, but true.....
 
geekgirl said:
i disagree. as did all my advisors.
stupid as it is, you must waive the right to see these things in order to get the entrez to big programs. otherwise, they have suspicion.
stupid, granted, but true.....

I have to agree, what is there to gain by acting as if you dont trust the letter writer. One of mine sent a copy to me, and also at about half of my interviews they actually gave me the letters and let me read them.
 
geekgirl said:
i disagree. as did all my advisors.
stupid as it is, you must waive the right to see these things in order to get the entrez to big programs. otherwise, they have suspicion.
stupid, granted, but true.....
Why, though? It's ridiculous. I used to waive my right to see the letters, until a resident asked me why I was doing it. I replied that I just thought that was how it was done. And then he asked me why I would waive my right to see something that was on record for me... and you know, I realized that it didn't actually make sense. Why would you waive your right to see something written about you? I doubt that they change their letters based on whether the person has waived the right to see or not. I know my letter writers certainly wouldn't have written nice things just because they thought I would see it. They would be honest. Isn't that how most surgeons are?

Stand up for your right to see what is in your file! Don't waive the right to see your LORs.
 
robotsonic said:
Stand up for your right to see what is in your file! Don't waive the right to see your LORs.
i, too, disagree. yes, it makes no sense, and yeah, you make good points. however, as geekgirl said, good letters may seem suspect if you don't waive your right. if you're unsure whether or not you'll get good letters, make sure you weed these out by the way you ask for them (e.g. "do you feel like you know me well enough to write me a strong letter?") if you're certain you'll get good letters, don't damage the goods; there'd be less harm in asking your letter writers themselves if they'd be willing to show you a copy after they've written them. (remember--letters don't get uploaded until you indicate them in eras.)

i actually had an interviewer read out excerpts from my letters, which i'm pretty sure were strong, bc several interviewers commented on them. most seemed to take pleasure in informing me they were strong, and i think that if i hadn't waived my right to read them, they wouldn't have left as potent (so as not to say "strong" again) an impact.
 
scrappy said:
i, too, disagree. yes, it makes no sense, and yeah, you make good points. however, as geekgirl said, good letters may seem suspect if you don't waive your right. if you're unsure whether or not you'll get good letters, make sure you weed these out by the way you ask for them (e.g. "do you feel like you know me well enough to write me a strong letter?") if you're certain you'll get good letters, don't damage the goods; there'd be less harm in asking your letter writers themselves if they'd be willing to show you a copy after they've written them. (remember--letters don't get uploaded until you indicate them in eras.)

i actually had an interviewer read out excerpts from my letters, which i'm pretty sure were strong, bc several interviewers commented on them. most seemed to take pleasure in informing me they were strong, and i think that if i hadn't waived my right to read them, they wouldn't have left as potent (so as not to say "strong" again) an impact.

Since I haven't done ERAS yet, is there an indicator somewhere of whether or not you've waived your right? How do they know you haven't read them?
 
SurgeryChef said:
Since I haven't done ERAS yet, is there an indicator somewhere of whether or not you've waived your right? How do they know you haven't read them?
There is no indicator. I think the cover sheet you fill out says that the letter writer should include whether you have waived your right or not on the letter itself. But even though I did not waive my right, I haven't actually looked at any of the letters, so I don't know if it says it on there.

Honestly, I don't think anyone noticed or cared whether I waived that right. A lot of my interviewers read my LORs while I was sitting there, and they only commented on how much my letter writers liked me. I never got a comment like, "So you've read these letters, huh?"
 
the box is on the cover sheet you give to the letter writer. there is no way to tell on your app for the program. they just staple it all together. i was asked if i had read my letters and offered to be able to by many of my interviewers, which i did the first time of course, but in general dont appear to be a trend breaker.
 
My letter writers put it in the body of the text that I had waived the right to see the letter, but still emailed me a copy. (To my surprise and delight.)
 
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