Low GPA/high MCAT

[nshams]

I have a 2.7 GPA & a 35 MCAT (severe downward trend) - my options essentially are:

1. Go for Carribean - I know it's a tough road to a good residency but I've always done decently on standardized tests & I know that I can do well on USMLE

2. Do SMP & retry for US MD next year - but this means another year of school for me.

I know this shouldn't even be a consideration but the Carribean is SO PRETTY!! It'd be nice to live in for a while, if nothing else .

Ross does have students who went into even Neurology/Anaesthesiology after graduating & it's only a 40month program.. I'm 22 & don't want to go to school for any longer than necessary

Help?

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[TexasTriathlete]

I got into a good DO school with 33 MCAT and ~2.7 GPA

Science GPA is ~3.3 though, and I have a ridiculously strong upward trend. Are you non-trad?

 

[nshams]

Maybe - I haven't been registered in school for about a year now - I'm weird - I finished my chem bacheolars classes when I was 19, then screwed around for another couple of years (trashed my GPA) - now, I want to apply to MD & everyone just laughs at me (sad )

 

[TexasTriathlete]

When I went back to school, I sat down with a biology counselor who asked me "What makes you think you could possibly do this?"

Now that I'm accepted, I'm going to go in and drop a deuce on her desk.

Apply to DO schools. They don't care as much about MCAT, so you may not be in for as easy of a time as you think, but you could get a look from one or two of them.

MD schools will be very unlikely for you at this point.

 

[Turkelton]

Hey Tex! After you drop that deuce, you should remind that counselor that she is not alone for there are a plethora of lousy pre-med counselors out there, and that if she or anyone else really wanted to learn something about matriculating to med school it would be here on the SDN forum (via weighing out thousands of opinions/experiences about matriculation).

 

[Perrotfish]

Do the SMP. High MCAT and Low GPA is exactly what they're designed for, and you're probably to late in the admissions cycle even for DO schools anyway. Get into EVMS (you have to get to 2.75, though) and you're only 1 year away from a US allo medical school.'

The extra year isn't as bad as you think, by the way. If you go to a high linkage school like EVMS you'll get out of all the classes you high passed. Having a light courseload your first year is could make your medical school experience more than a little nicer.

 

[Saregamapadanis]

I have a 2.7 GPA & a 35 MCAT (severe downward trend) - my options essentially are:

1. Go for Carribean - I know it's a tough road to a good residency but I've always done decently on standardized tests & I know that I can do well on USMLE

2. Do SMP & retry for US MD next year - but this means another year of school for me.

I know this shouldn't even be a consideration but the Carribean is SO PRETTY!! It'd be nice to live in for a while, if nothing else .

Ross does have students who went into even Neurology/Anaesthesiology after graduating & it's only a 40month program.. I'm 22 & don't want to go to school for any longer than necessary

Help?

Please don't go to carribean, do a program and retry for US MD or DO. please, don't go to carribean.

 

[Blade28]

Looks like her strategy worked to motivate you.

My thought exactly.

 

[Perrotfish]

I know this shouldn't even be a consideration but the Carribean is SO PRETTY!! It'd be nice to live in for a while, if nothing else .

Ross does have students who went into even Neurology/Anaesthesiology after graduating & it's only a 40month program.. I'm 22 & don't want to go to school for any longer than necessary

Just to be clear the problem with the Carribean isn't the quality of education or the residency that you get, it's that you're not very likely to graduate. Carrib schools fail out a LOT of their students. Imagine getting through 20 months (and 120K) of their medical school and ending up without a medical degree. Now you have a debt load equivalent to a modest home and nowhere to live.

 

[thierryhenry]

as long as your not clowning around you shouldn't fail...

St. George's is all you need.

 

[idomyownstunts1]

i kno this is adumb question...
but waht exactly is an SMO or EVMS

 

[speeter]

Hey Tex! After you drop that deuce, you should remind that counselor that she is not alone for there are a plethora of lousy pre-med counselors out there, and that if she or anyone else really wanted to learn something about matriculating to med school it would be here on the SDN forum (via weighing out thousands of opinions/experiences about matriculation).

I guess I'll take this as my cue to shamelessly throw in a plug for GVSU. My pre-med advisor was worth his weight in GOLD. The man knew the ropes and was extremely helpful. They don't all suck.

 

[TarHeel55]

i kno this is adumb question...
but waht exactly is an SMO or EVMS

EVMS = Eastern Virginia Medical School
SMO= I'm not sure about this one.
But SMP = Special Master's Program.

 

[167649]

Do the SMP. High MCAT and Low GPA is exactly what they're designed for, and you're probably to late in the admissions cycle even for DO schools anyway. Get into EVMS (you have to get to 2.75, though) and you're only 1 year away from a US allo medical school.'

The extra year isn't as bad as you think, by the way. If you go to a high linkage school like EVMS you'll get out of all the classes you high passed. Having a light courseload your first year is could make your medical school experience more than a little nicer.

I agree that if you want to do allo than you need some post bacc work. Even for osteo a sub 3.0 gpa is tough to work with. The 35 definetely helps though, and I think with enough work you can do it without the carribean.

As far as an SMP goes, some will not take anyone with a sub 3.0 either. I know that Georgetown's, the most well regarded and well known, has an average of ~3.3. So try this route if possible but if it doesn't work out than maybe other post bac work would be in order.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I agree that if you want to do allo than you need some post bacc work. Even for osteo a sub 3.0 gpa is tough to work with. The 35 definetely helps though, and I think with enough work you can do it without the carribean.

As far as an SMP goes, some will not take anyone with a sub 3.0 either. I know that Georgetown's, the most well regarded and well known, has an average of ~3.3. So try this route if possible but if it doesn't work out than maybe other post bac work would be in order.

There are various SMPs that will accept your GPA. That said you might want to think about taking classes between now and then to improve the GPA.

In my opinion, spending an extra year in an SMP and going allo is more favorable than going DO. That is what I did and am very happy with how it has turned out so far.

If you happen not to get in after the SMP, most likely you will be accepted to a better DO school than had you not done the SMP. You will be a step ahead of the curve no matter where you end up. Its a win-win.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I have a 2.7 GPA & a 35 MCAT (severe downward trend) - my options essentially are:

1. Go for Carribean - I know it's a tough road to a good residency but I've always done decently on standardized tests & I know that I can do well on USMLE

I know this shouldn't even be a consideration but the Carribean is SO PRETTY!! It'd be nice to live in for a while, if nothing else .

Ross does have students who went into even Neurology/Anaesthesiology after graduating & it's only a 40month program.. I'm 22 & don't want to go to school for any longer than necessary

Help?

With regards to carribean here is a short list why the carribean is not a great idea:

Their attrition rate is atrocious
The education is variable, no matter what people on this board say.
Their board pass rates are substandard and that is after stacking the numbers in their favor (publishing only those numbers that pass, prohibiting certain students from sitting for the boards, pre-tests to ensure a student is ready for the boards).

They dont have adequate clinicals on the islands, you will have to move back to the states to do those (more $).
You dont qualify for federal financial aid (think terribly high interest rates), Tuition is pretty expensive as are most of the islands.
They are not accredited by the same body that accredits all US MD programs.
Low match rates
Difficulty getting a competitive residency despite decent scores
More hoops to get licensed than the average US trained doc (this may have changed but not sure)

And for the record, Neuro is not a competitive specialty and GAS is only moderatly competitive.

 

[hopefool]

I am considering the caribbean very strongly right now and feel that it is a very viable option. The variability in education, not to offend, but how would you know unless you have attended? other than stories you have heard which are as good as the stories in the favor of caribbean schools.

Before attending I feel it is a good idea to get as many opinions and gather as much information as possible. I think it is also a good idea to talk to med students about their first few years and see what you are up against. I am currently seeing a girl in medical school, at the med school I am taking my post-bac at and have access to her course material. It is a lot of information to process but nothing terribly complicated from what I have seen.

With regards to carribean here is a short list why the carribean is not a great idea:

Their attrition rate is atrocious
The education is variable, no matter what people on this board say.
Their board pass rates are substandard and that is after stacking the numbers in their favor (publishing only those numbers that pass, prohibiting certain students from sitting for the boards, pre-tests to ensure a student is ready for the boards).

They dont have adequate clinicals on the islands, you will have to move back to the states to do those (more $).
You dont qualify for federal financial aid (think terribly high interest rates), Tuition is pretty expensive as are most of the islands.
They are not accredited by the same body that accredits all US MD programs.
Low match rates
Difficulty getting a competitive residency despite decent scores
More hoops to get licensed than the average US trained doc (this may have changed but not sure)

And for the record, Neuro is not a competitive specialty and GAS is only moderatly competitive.

 

[Perrotfish]

I am considering the caribbean very strongly right now and feel that it is a very viable option. The variability in education, not to offend, but how would you know unless you have attended? other than stories you have heard which are as good as the stories in the favor of caribbean schools.

What we're sure of is the graduation rates of their matriculants. Go to the caribbean and you're taking a very real chance that you're going to end up 120K in debt without a medical degree to show for it. Only go if you're either very rich or very sure of yourself.

 

[hopefool]

True. Im a smart person I feel that I would be alright. I dont know for sure. I went to an ivy league college but didnt do my work for most of the time I was there.

As far as the clientel attending caribbean med schools, are there a lot of students who worked hard for 4 years and still didnt cut it, not getting the gpa necessary for the US? Is MCAT score a good predictor of med school performance? and basically does the gamble lie in whether or not you can teach yourself the material or not...? or is it that the material is just that difficult?

What we're sure of is the graduation rates of their matriculants. Go to the caribbean and you're taking a very real chance that you're going to end up 120K in debt without a medical degree to show for it. Only go if you're either very rich or very sure of yourself.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Nothing is a good predictor of medical school performance. You're starting from scratch. Just you and your books.

And no, it isn't very complicated stuff. It is a **** ton of stuff.

IMO, the risk involved with going the Caribbean route is not worth it. What happens if you go there and you just don't like it in a foreign country? Or you get sick? Any number of things can impact your performance, and these schools are looking to weed people out. Stay in the US, and you are assured of a quality education, and they will work with you if you are struggling, because they actually want you to graduate.

I'm not sure I'd go Caribbean even if I had no other choice. I think I'd just re-apply US MD/DO again. It would be absolutely a very last resort.

 

[Nasrudin]

Why do people always mention that they went to a "Ivy college" or a "Top 25 school" which if not converted into something concrete like a connection with a hedge fund manager simply is a way of saying I just got took for 50 G's....welcome to Starbucks can I take your order.

 

[hopefool]

I was trying to provide any and all information that might have been helpful in predicting med school success. I didnt want any cookies.

Why do people always mention that they went to a "Ivy college" or a "Top 25 school" which if not converted into something concrete like a connection with a hedge fund manager simply is a way of saying I just got took for 50 G's....welcome to Starbucks can I take your order.

 

[Perrotfish]

Why do people always mention that they went to a "Ivy college" or a "Top 25 school" which if not converted into something concrete like a connection with a hedge fund manager simply is a way of saying I just got took for 50 G's....welcome to Starbucks can I take your order.

Lots of Harvard grads at Starbucks, no question. And tons and tons of low tier state college kids in medical school. And the easter bunny is real.

Seriously, whatever anger thing you've got against people with money get over it. Employers, grad schools, medical schools, etc.: they all respect an Ivy league degree more than a top tier state school more than a lower ranked state school more than a community college. If someone has the opportunity going to a Harvard type University it's one heck of an accomplishment. Don't try to take away from that because you have some sort sad college student anger complex going.

 

[RxnMan]

To the OP - I would warn against the Carribean. I have heard from several people that the clinical rotations are not as strong as they are in the US, and it is difficult to get residencies in the US from the Carribean, let alone a competitive residency. There is a blog, "the rumors were true" by one such Carribean student, and it may help you decide.

Lots of Harvard grads at Starbucks, no question. And tons and tons of low tier state college kids in medical school. And the easter bunny is real.

Seriously, whatever anger thing you've got against people with money get over it. Employers, grad schools, medical schools, etc.: they all respect an Ivy league degree more than a top tier state school more than a lower ranked state school more than a community college. If someone has the opportunity going to a Harvard type University it's one heck of an accomplishment. Don't try to take away from that because you have some sort sad college student anger complex going.

Whoa. Nasrudin is pointing out that a lot of Ivy leaguers paid big bucks for an education that, for most, did not produce a significant increase in income (or similar marker of success) and may have been better served by saving their money and going to a less expensive school. Nobody said anything about being angry against the rich until you did.

I will say that a lot of posters say they went to an ivy league school with a sense of arrogance and entitlement. I came from a school that has a reputation for creating great engineers - Saudi princes come to my school to learn how drill oil for daddy. Did that help me one iota getting into med school? Of course not. Was it an accomplishment to get into that school? You bet. Did I work real hard, just like those ivy leaguers say they do? Yup. But you see, ADCOMs just want to see 2 numbers: MCAT > 30 and GPA > 3.6. And you can get those by going to community college.

 

[Nasrudin]

To the OP - I would warn against the Carribean. I have heard from several people that the clinical rotations are not as strong as they are in the US, and it is difficult to get residencies in the US from the Carribean, let alone a competitive residency. There is a blog, "the rumors were true" by one such Carribean student, and it may help you decide.

Whoa. Nasrudin is pointing out that a lot of Ivy leaguers paid big bucks for an education that, for most, did not produce a significant increase in income (or similar marker of success) and may have been better served by saving their money and going to a less expensive school. Nobody said anything about being angry against the rich until you did.

I will say that a lot of posters say they went to an ivy league school with a sense of arrogance and entitlement. I came from a school that has a reputation for creating great engineers - Saudi princes come to my school to learn how drill oil for daddy. Did that help me one iota getting into med school? Of course not. Was it an accomplishment to get into that school? You bet. Did I work real hard, just like those ivy leaguers say they do? Yup. But you see, ADCOMs just want to see 2 numbers: MCAT > 30 and GPA > 3.6. And you can get those by going to community college.

Thanks RxnMan. While you are correct in interpreting my position in this case, Perrotfish, is no doubt, responding to my posts in general and his/her criticism is fair enough.

Although I will respond to the good tropical fish by adding that I have nothing against an individual with money, frankly I intend on being somewhat of one myself so that would be pointless. I do recognize a class war going on in America and in the world, however, what I find particularly ironic is that the largely middle class constituency in these forums are vehement foot soldiers in a a war that renders them increasingly more vulnerable to the things that drive and keep the lower class down.

One of those things is the phenomenon that I was referring to in my other post on this thread which is that many of us unlike our upper class comrades do not recognize the purpose of a college education which is simply a means of obtaining some measure of financial security. Upper class folks major in whatever, say art to put some personal panache into whatever they will eventually own. If you mimic this without the means to actualize on it--by buying into the mythos of academic prestige--you create lever for someone else to exploit you.

Now I was probably off base in that the person was only seeking the most correct advice for their situation but I was just looking for an excuse to make this point because it really boggles my mind how many smart people buy into it including my tropical fish friend it would seem.

 

[Nasrudin]

OK. My point is absurd. This is a place for poor reapplying b@stards. I suppose it does really matter since not one of us is an enviable position.

Sorry OP or whomever. It has occurred to me that since I am not yet the CEO of a large firm that I cannot qualify to assess the value of an Ivy league education or more pointedly since I am not doing any hiring lately it doesn't really matter what I think. As you were then folks.

 

[drizzt3117]

Just dropping by to make a couple points...

For the record, I attended top 5 schools for both undergrad and business school, including an Ivy League institution.

In terms of post-college employment, I would certainly consider it a worthy investment, as I ended up at a top tier IB, and after deciding the lifestyle wasn't for me, spoke with an alumnus of my institution and obtained a top tier strategy consulting position without much effort. As a consulting manager, nearly everyone I elected to interview was from a group of about ten schools.

As far as medical school goes, did the "prestige" of my educational institutions make a difference? Certainly not as much as it would have in business, at least as far as this application cycle has gone. I'm sure it's helped, but not as much as you might think. I'm certainly not complaining, but I would put my performance on par with those with similar stats that have come out directly from undergrad. Purely for medical school admissions purposes, I would have been better off attending, say... Saginaw Valley State and gotten a 4.0 to go along with my MCAT score. <shrug>

Ultimately though, your undergrad institution will be on your CV forever, and the experiences you had in undergrad will also stay with you. Having a rich educational experience isn't only about obtaining a job, or even about earning potential.

 

[RxnMan]

...So you know I went to Georgia Tech, so I've got no dog in the Ivy league fight. However Georgia Tech is highly ranked enough that I did get to watch friends of mine fail out, only to succeed at the less regarded Georgia Institutions of higher education without significantly changing their habits. I'm happy they're doing well, but I'd hate it if their 4.0 at their new kindercare was regarded more highly than my degree at the Institute they failed out of. After all, I wouldn't want any of them to be my doctor.

In most cases, for most people, the name won't (which is different than being an Ivy, which are just old colleges, not necessarily good ones,) make much difference. For med school it certainly doesn't, and that 4.0 from Backwoods Upstairs CC does stand a better chance of getting in than a 3.3 from Ivy Ivy. It is frustrating as all get-out that the competition you face at a competitive school, since grades are relative (let alone the difficulty of the classes) is not taken into consideration by ADCOMs. You are right that I would want the kid from the hard college who worked for his degree to treat my grandmother, and not the frat guy. But ADCOMs don't care. It is frustrating.

Since I think the OP has their answer already...

I agree. In that vein, let's let the topic drop and wait for any other re-apps to ask their questions. You can always continue this conversation in the Lounge or All-students.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Why do people always mention that they went to a "Ivy college" or a "Top 25 school" it is a way of saying I just got took for 50 G's....

When I look at my friends who went to a private school for undergrad and ended up in medical school I just have to shake my head and laugh.

I went to UVa which is a very good public school. Was my education appreciably different than someone who went to Yale or Harvard? No. Perhaps the people people at Harvard got a negligibly better education but certainly not 150K better. If you are smart enough to get into an Ivy, you have a relatively decent state school and dont have your parents footing the bill you would have to be a ***** to choose Harvard. Then again, what 18 year old has the foresight to make that kind of decision. I couldnt imagine paying 120K for med school and then have another 100-200K from undergrad accruing interest.

In business school I must concede there is a distinct advantage of going to an Ivy but for med school, not so much.