Low Stats School Application List

[chewsnuffles]

OK, I'm picking out schools to apply to and I would appriciate as much candid feedback as you all would like to give. Hopefully this can help other people who are selecting the schools to apply to right now as well.
I have a 3.05, with a 3.8 last semester. Waiting for April MCAT, getting 32-35 on the practice tests. Outstanding EC's, play college soccer and on a semi pro team, which takes most of my time, shadowed, interned, you know the drill. I got a 3.8 because I went abroad to study and didn't have soccer and now that I see the success I have in academics I'm going to scale back time spent on soccer and my aspirations of being a pro (as in it will never happen, but I could be a doctor). Also working on a research team under a guy from Harvard Med that’s going to submit a paper that should get published in Cell pretty soon that I will be in. SO, the question is, with my GPA killing me, what do I do? I am open to MD or DO schools, but I would prefer MD. Really what I want is schools where the students are happy, but also schools where I won't get cut by a number cutoff. Any help is appreciated and thanks in advance. Oh, and I am a Washington Resident, went to a liberal arts college, double Chem and Bio major, math minor (KILLED my gpa, why did I do it, can I remove it?), no disciplinary action, traditional applicant.

Current List
University of Washington
OHSU

both are longshots for me

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[Law2Doc]

OK, I'm picking out schools to apply to and I would appriciate as much candid feedback as you all would like to give. Hopefully this can help other people who are selecting the schools to apply to right now as well.
I have a 3.05, with a 3.8 last semester. Waiting for April MCAT, getting 32-35 on the practice tests. Outstanding EC's, play college soccer and on a semi pro team, which takes most of my time, shadowed, interned, you know the drill. I got a 3.8 because I went abroad to study and didn't have soccer and now that I see the success I have in academics I'm going to scale back time spent on soccer and my aspirations of being a pro (as in it will never happen, but I could be a doctor). Also working on a research team under a guy from Harvard Med that’s going to submit a paper that should get published in Cell pretty soon that I will be in. SO, the question is, with my GPA killing me, what do I do? I am open to MD or DO schools, but I would prefer MD. Really what I want is schools where the students are happy, but also schools where I won't get cut by a number cutoff. Any help is appreciated and thanks in advance. Oh, and I am a Washington Resident, went to a liberal arts college, double Chem and Bio major, math minor (KILLED my gpa, why did I do it, can I remove it?), no disciplinary action, traditional applicant.

Current List
University of Washington
OHSU

both are longshots for me

With those stats, consider doing a one year SMP. You log a year of A's in medical school level graduate sciences in one of these programs, and you will have many more doors open to you. Otherwise, a 3.0 may make it tough, even with a stellar MCAT, unless you are in a state with a shortage of applicants or a lot of state schools. And bear in mind that practice tests are helpful, but don't guaranty your score -- I tend not to believe anyone on SDN who says they are going to get a 30+ MCAT until it happens -- and sadly I'm frequently right. The stresses of the real thing tend to change things.

 

[DrHuang]

I tend not to believe anyone on SDN who says they are going to get a 30+ MCAT until it happens -- and sadly I'm frequently right. The stresses of the real thing tend to change things.

im the same way - practice tests and the real thing are often off by a good amount

 

[relentless11]

im the same way - practice tests and the real thing are often off by a good amount

Yea, usually off in a bad way too. I think 1 out of 4 of my friends was off in a good way...as in they scored higher. But most of the time people score 1-2 point less than they got on their practice exams. I believe I scored 1 point less too.

 

[chewsnuffles]

OK, so far thanks for the replys.
I am currently looking at SMP's but the thing that I don't like is that it will end up delaying my application cycle 2 years! (I'm going into senior year of college right now) After the SMI gets done assuming the one year program, I won't even be eligable until the next cycle. So right now I'm applying for a 2007 matriculation, but with that I would be applying for a 2009! Surely there must be some better option, that might just delay me one year...
Secondly, I scored a 31 w/o studying for the test at all, always have been good at VR, and PS and BS I have had enough classes in to take the test blind almost. (a study shows that the SAT verbal score is a great indicator, and the ONLY indicator that transfers from the SAT to the MCAT) and after I studied it only improved. On the real thing I know I did well too, finished each section with time to spare, answered most of the questions before looking at the options to avoid being tricked and such. So I know that it is hard to believe that someone can get a 3.05 and still be a 30+ scorer, but I am confident I'm not tricking myself on this one here. Possibly should I just chose D.O. schools for this cycle?

 

[Law2Doc]

OK, so far thanks for the replys.
I am currently looking at SMP's but the thing that I don't like is that it will end up delaying my application cycle 2 years! (I'm going into senior year of college right now) After the SMI gets done assuming the one year program, I won't even be eligable until the next cycle. So right now I'm applying for a 2007 matriculation, but with that I would be applying for a 2009! Surely there must be some better option, that might just delay me one year...

An extra year is meaningless in a career that will probably last 45. Get all your ducks in a row before you pull the trigger.

 

[SoCuteMD]

An extra year is meaningless in a career that will probably last 45. Get all your ducks in a row before you pull the trigger.

Here's another thought:

If you don't apply this upcoming cycle and instead give yourself another full year to pull up your GPA then you might just have enough to get in somewhere if (and only if) you have amazing ECs, good letters, and a great PS to boot. If you are trying to apply, interview, and finish up your senior year your GPA will inevitably take a hit.

If you pull up your GPA through next year you will show a strong upward trend and that could really work in your favor.

I'm also TOTALLY with Law2Doc on this one. A year is nothing. The two years I had in between college and med school were the best of my life (so far!!!).

 

[kupono3]

OK, so far thanks for the replys.
I am currently looking at SMP's but the thing that I don't like is that it will end up delaying my application cycle 2 years! (I'm going into senior year of college right now)

medical school will still be there in 2 years.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Also working on a research team under a guy from Harvard Med that’s going to submit a paper that should get published in Cell pretty soon that I will be in.

This is a digression, but...

The time between the date an article is submitted to a basic science journal and the date of publication usually takes several months if not years, especially in a prestigious journal like Cell. Aren't you forgetting the substantial peer-review process, the subsequent experiments that have to be performed to address the reviewers' questions, the rewriting of the text,and the time elapsed from acceptance to the journal and printing, etc?

Also, I've never heard of a premed who co-authored a Cell-worthy paper, though I'm sure they exist. This makes me wonder. If you have the time and brains to do Cell-worthy research, why are you having so much difficulty with your undergrad classes?

 

[Rafa]

If you have the time and brains to do Cell-worthy research, why are you having so much difficulty with your undergrad classes?

Maybe he cares more about his research than he does about his classes.

 

[chewsnuffles]

This is a digression, but...

The time between the date an article is submitted to a basic science journal and the date of publication usually takes several months if not years, especially in a prestigious journal like Cell. Aren't you forgetting the substantial peer-review process, the subsequent experiments that have to be performed to address the reviewers' questions, the rewriting of the text,and the time elapsed from acceptance to the journal and printing, etc?

Also, I've never heard of a premed who co-authored a Cell-worthy paper, though I'm sure they exist. This makes me wonder. If you have the time and brains to do Cell-worthy research, why are you having so much difficulty with your undergrad classes?

Valid point. I've been very into genetics for my entire academic career. I'm working with a PhD team who is just now putting out a paper, I am not in that one, but I've been working with them for 5 months and will be in the next one. As for the turnover time thats not what I was getting at, but more that I would atleast have something to show for some type of reasonable scientific achievement for undergrad level. I mention cell because its a legit lab I'm in and I consider myself very lucky to be in it especially considering my GPA from the past. I also had enough other classes out of the way so that I could spend some serious time in the lab and still graduate with double major/minor.
As for the undergrad GPA matter, it was a math minor that killed me (4 C's) P-Chem (1 C) and O-Chem II (1 C) The one grade that I am ashamed of is the O-chem II, but the others its not that rediculous considering many pre-meds purposefully never touch those classes with a 10 foot pole. If I would have known better I would have done alot of things differently. Such as take O-Chem II with a light load and take 0 math classes. Then buff my GPA with other classes. But hey, I took probably the hardest under grad route possible and I don't regret it, except it means alot more hurdling before getting into med school from how things sound, even though I have finally straightened out my act.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Valid point. I've been very into genetics for my entire academic career. I'm working with a PhD team who is just now putting out a paper, I am not in that one, but I've been working with them for 5 months and will be in the next one. As for the turnover time thats not what I was getting at, but more that I would atleast have something to show for some type of reasonable scientific achievement for undergrad level. I mention cell because its a legit lab I'm in and I consider myself very lucky to be in it especially considering my GPA from the past. I also had enough other classes out of the way so that I could spend some serious time in the lab and still graduate with double major/minor.
As for the undergrad GPA matter, it was a math minor that killed me (4 C's) P-Chem (1 C) and O-Chem II (1 C) The one grade that I am ashamed of is the O-chem II, but the others its not that rediculous considering many pre-meds purposefully never touch those classes with a 10 foot pole. If I would have known better I would have done alot of things differently. Such as take O-Chem II with a light load and take 0 math classes. Then buff my GPA with other classes. But hey, I took probably the hardest under grad route possible and I don't regret it, except it means alot more hurdling before getting into med school from how things sound, even though I have finally straightened out my act.

If I were you, I'd continue that genetics research. Co-authoring a paper published in Cell is a major accomplishment and will definitely make you standout.

 

[chewsnuffles]

If I were you, I'd continue that genetics research. Co-authoring a paper published in Cell is a major accomplishment and will definitely make you standout.

OK, so assuming everything stays on track though and assuming that the paper when done IS OF cell quality (or some journal of a reasonably high impact factor) you are very right in saying the turn over time is enough that at best I can say on my apps "submitted for publication". Is it even ethical/allowed to show my research/send it in when it hasn't been published yet, or must I continue to keep it under wraps until it hits a magazine? I will have something show worthy in August, which is again why I ask if I should go throgj with this application cycle and possibly just select D.O. schools?
For me right now I feel like I finally got into some kind of good rythm as far as school goes and I want it to take me through into med school, I fear that if I take a break I'll get back into bad old habits or loose my edge.

And thanks for those that have responded by the way.

 

[JMAT]

well you're in a similar situation as myself. I am also a washington resident and UW would be my top choice. OHSU, however, will be a tough one for you. It is close to home but they are very stringent for out-of-staters. UW accepts applications from the five states without schools making it more competitive than a traditional in-state school. ONe good thing you can look forward to, is the UW gives a lot of interviews. last year they gave 671/973 in-staters interviews who applied. 235 of them got in. Try to get some volunteer service, if you haven't already and have time. Get the interview, nail it go to med school. I think you could have a good shot at UW. Do it.

 

[chewsnuffles]

OK, with the above post perhaps people might have some insights into how I could frame an application/where more work is needed
Here is all the details

3.05 GPA (3.88 last semster with an extra class) 3.02 PCBM GPA
30+ MCAT (April, trust me, it won't be below 30) talked about it above
3 Years college soccer
Inter Fraternity Council President
Childrens hospital volonteer
Geriatrics Internship (patient visits/medicare billing)
Also, I want to go into geriatrics
Study abroad
Hopeful publication (more above)
top tier libral arts college that is known to dish hard grades, but I think it lacks the recongnition that anyone will notice it anyway
Lots of computer certifications (A+/MCSE)

there, compleate picture, judge for yourself whether or not I should submit.
This is slightly selfish I know but I can't thank you enough for giving me a critical look at my app. You all know more about getting into med schools than any pre health advisors I have had experience with. Infact, if I would have known about this web site 3 years ago I would instead be selecting which top 10 school I should choose.

 

[Law2Doc]

there, compleate picture, judge for yourself whether or not I should submit.

Not. Do something to fix the GPA or prove to adcoms that you can handle the sciences. And don't count your chickens till they hatch with that MCAT. EVERYBODY is optimistic that they are going to break 30- But everybody doesn't. No reason to "trust you" that you will -- you will know in a couple weeks, and then can re-post the question with the real numbers.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

Not. Do something to fix the GPA or prove to adcoms that you can handle the sciences. And don't count your chickens till they hatch with that MCAT. EVERYBODY is optimistic that they are going to break 30- But everybody doesn't. No reason to "trust you" that you will -- you will know in a couple weeks, and then can re-post the question with the real numbers.

Definitely, definitely, definitely true. My practice scores dropped by 2 on the real deal and I didn't break the 30. Guess what - in the end, nobody cares too much and 30+ is not a requirement. I think I was accepted mostly because of my demeanor on the interview day.

 

[chewsnuffles]

Definitely, definitely, definitely true. My practice scores dropped by 2 on the real deal and I didn't break the 30. Guess what - in the end, nobody cares too much and 30+ is not a requirement. I think I was accepted mostly because of my demeanor on the interview day.

law2doc, I appriciate what you say, but I feel its prudent to alteast look into what is open to me and how I should plan my next couple of years. I know that it is just "a month away" that I get my scores, but I can do alot in a month, and I don't want to miss an oppertunity to start researching schools. I'm going to stop the application cycle entirely if I don't get a 30 and put it off a year or two but I just thought it might be nice to see the kind of list people might generate for lower tier med schools that are still high in "student satisfaction", a factor that the numbers alone don't show. After all, from what I hear there is no such thing as a crappy med school, or else it wouldn't stay accreditted very long. I just don't want to be retaking bio classes when I could be in gross anatomy in my 1st year cutting stuff up.
I hope you don't feel like I'm wasting your time being "hypothetical" or perhaps still am holding on to a dream that has already slipped through my fingers. I'm trying to put myself right now, and do all I can to prepare in some way or another.
From what I heard so far the only MD schools that I should even look at are UW because there is a chance I would get an interview because I'm in state.
Now if thats it maybe I should just throw in the towl for this year even if I did get a 30+ and save the money.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Is it even ethical/allowed to show my research/send it in when it hasn't been published yet, or must I continue to keep it under wraps until it hits a magazine?

Yes, definitely mention your research even if it isn't published yet. While impressive, med schools don't expect many premeds to have coauthored papers (this is true even for MD/PhD applicants). Having a finished manuscript or a thesis is noteworthy in itself. Cite the manuscript like a publication but write "under review for publication in _______" for the citation.

 

[WayChanger]

Although of course ultimately it's completely your call, and many aspects of the medical school admissions process are indeed unpredictable, I too would recommend that you complete a SMP prior to applying. Your GPA is well below the average of most allopathic medical school in the United States, and even if you get over 30 on the MCAT, I suspect that your low grades will be viewed with great suspicion. Your good performance this semester shows that you have the ability to handle the work, but I suspect that one semester will not be sufficient to offset your overall undergraduate record. Some sort of post-bac program would really boost your chances.

That said, I don't believe that it's absolutely impossible for you to get in an MD school this cycle. And you definitely would still be competitive for DO schools, if you take that route. However, you would be in vastly better shape if you wait a year. Is it worth trading all those potential opportunities in order to save a year? It's up to you, in the end...

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm going to stop the application cycle entirely if I don't get a 30 and put it off a year or two but I just thought it might be nice to see the kind of list people might generate for lower tier med schools that are still high in "student satisfaction", a factor that the numbers alone don't show. After all, from what I hear there is no such thing as a crappy med school, or else it wouldn't stay accreditted very long. I just don't want to be retaking bio classes when I could be in gross anatomy in my 1st year cutting stuff up.

You have a 3.0. Even with a good MCAT score you are likely in need of some academic enhancement. And this is for those so called "lower tier schools".

 

[chewsnuffles]

point taken. I am getting the idea that waiting in the grand scheme of things might pay off. But could someone just tell me then if it would hurt to apply to D.O. schools for this cycle if you feel I am competative.
ALSO, I know that Georgetown has a good SMP. For post-bac any thoughts on good places to attend. Would UW be a good spot and should I focus on science classes? Possibly there is another post for reference.
One program that I like that I have a good shot at is a Bioscience MBA, which I would be fine with doing for 2 years pre-med school, since I feel that it could be very practical depending on where I take my career.
Thoughts?

 

[riff raff]

point taken. I am getting the idea that waiting in the grand scheme of things might pay off. But could someone just tell me then if it would hurt to apply to D.O. schools for this cycle if you feel I am competative.
ALSO, I know that Georgetown has a good SMP. For post-bac any thoughts on good places to attend. Would UW be a good spot and should I focus on science classes? Possibly there is another post for reference.
One program that I like that I have a good shot at is a Bioscience MBA, which I would be fine with doing for 2 years pre-med school, since I feel that it could be very practical depending on where I take my career.
Thoughts?

Maybe I didn't catch all the details here, but, honest question, are you a white? (or maybe another race/ethnicity in which is heavily populated in the medical field). If so, nevermind. If yes, a 3.0 and a stellar mcat will get you peaches and cream at a lot of schools

But, if your like a lot of applicants (white), and didn't lose your left arm in the battle of antietam, a 3.0gpa/3.0 bcpm is going to be a hard to overcome. Here is what I would do if I were you:
1) I'd wait for your mcat to come out, if you get 30+, I'd apply if I were you (although I tend to think you would want around a 34+ to get in to places with 3.0 gpa). The odds are still against you, but I've seen people get in before with similar stats and I'd carpetbomb my apps to mid to low tier schools. I wouldn't touch top tier schools unless your sitting at 35+ and even then it's a reach cause those people applying to top tier schools have those high mcats like you would, but the grades to match as well
2)While your waiting on schools, start boosting your resume for next year (ie: do well in classes, continue research, do clinical stuff, save a beached whale, you get the idea). Don't sit around thinking you're going to get in and waste that time that you could have boosted your app.
3) Drink a lot of beer and enjoy life. I recommend Blue Moon.

edit: with a 3.0 and a 30+ mcat you could get into DO schools as long as you have the proper EC's and are a good fit for the school. I know a few people from MSU that did it this year, one had a 27 on his mcat, same gpa as you.

 

[Centinel]

Maybe I didn't catch all the details here, but, honest question, are you a white? (or maybe another race/ethnicity in which is heavily populated in the medical field). If so, nevermind. If yes, a 3.0 and a stellar mcat will get you peaches and cream at a lot of schools

That was crass.

 

[chewsnuffles]

riff raff, I don't know where to begin quoteing your post followed by "lol", so I won't

I do enjoy the term "carpet bomb your lower tier apps", I prefer the term spray and pray, or shotgun style, but I really think carpet bomb conveys the message far better.

Oh, and I'm white, so there goes a big advantage, and I also have both arms.
Blue moon sounds great too, but I've never heard of it, where is it out of?
Finally, following your advise, I will look for beached wales to save.

 

[riff raff]

That was crass.

sorry if I didn't sugarcoat it and was not politically correct about the way I said it--probably could have said it better--but I think the point is the same. Are you going to honestly tell me that with similar stats, being a URM in a field doesn't increase your chances of being accepted? Sure, there are lots of factors to getting accepted, but if you're a URM and have good stats that would help your chances and I would weigh that as a factor if I had a 3.0 and a high mcat whether I was going to apply or not (if I were a minority). But yeah, I'm a niave for saying such a thing

edit: blue moon is by coors, prob can't find it at the grocery store, but any liquor/beer shop should have it.
http://www.mylifeisbeer.com/beer/bottles/bottledetail/131/ enjoy

 

[chewsnuffles]

BUMP - OK, I got it
34S - PS 11, VR 13, BS 10 and an S!

So excited. OK, I don't want to say I told ya so, but I'm a pretty good self-evaluator of how well I do on tests (I can say this because I could always call when I bombed a test in my frosh/soph college years, and now in my Jr. year I nail em) Little bit of age/maturity goes a long way.
I got my GPA to 3.1 after taking 5 semester classes and I got A's in all of em this semester + the MCAT in april. Finishing my research project this summer, looks really good. For the cell paper I get a "special thanks to for figures and drawings" and I am working on one that will definately be in a far lower journal, but I will undergrad co-author.
SMP looks nice, but what are my options. I want to go into Pharmaceutical some day, so what would give me a good boost in that field? I am even thinking about doing a bioscience MBA or something. DO schools I think are within reach, but what about MD? Would the carpet bombing work?!?

 

[Rafa]

Apply now. That was my opinion before you got your scores, and it's my opinion now. People can tell you to wait, but they're not going to be the ones twiddling their thumbs and taking b.s. classes to improve your GPA while you know you could already have been getting dirty in m.s.1. It's June. Tis the season. If you're ready, you're ready, and if I had your stats, I'd use them.