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What do you guys think?
Loyola HPSP vs USUHS
- Thread starter bafanculo
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I should imagine there is much more to consider than the quality of education, which is usually an elusive thing more in the mind of the beholder than in reality.
The military medical school has plusses and minusses. Free dollar cost of education, repayment in service; earn the MD, assured residency position. The education is fine. How much you learn and how well almost always depends on the learner, especially in medical school where self-study--and self study for the rest of your life--rule. Expect to be spoon fed? Forget it!
Make your career in the military, none of the dollar costs of maintaining a practice, although as a rule you go where they need or want you. That doesn't necessarily mean aboard an aircraft carrier or in a front-line MASH. You can specialize.
Or, after you paid back your service obligation, you can go into private practice. All of this depends upon your expectations and wishes for your future in medicine. But the future is not ours to see; que sera sera.
If you have to borrow to attend Loyola (2001-2002 tuition: $30,500; student fees: $655), you will be paying back loans for a long-time).
Choose your poison.
The military medical school has plusses and minusses. Free dollar cost of education, repayment in service; earn the MD, assured residency position. The education is fine. How much you learn and how well almost always depends on the learner, especially in medical school where self-study--and self study for the rest of your life--rule. Expect to be spoon fed? Forget it!
Make your career in the military, none of the dollar costs of maintaining a practice, although as a rule you go where they need or want you. That doesn't necessarily mean aboard an aircraft carrier or in a front-line MASH. You can specialize.
Or, after you paid back your service obligation, you can go into private practice. All of this depends upon your expectations and wishes for your future in medicine. But the future is not ours to see; que sera sera.
If you have to borrow to attend Loyola (2001-2002 tuition: $30,500; student fees: $655), you will be paying back loans for a long-time).
Choose your poison.
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Gower has some excellent points, I would also add to that that your choice should be largely based on what you plan on doing in the military. If you plan on making a career out of the military no school in the U.S. will help you in your career more than USUHS, you could graduate from Harvard Med or Hopkins, and in the military that wouldn't mean anything more than if you graduated from a state school. USUHS on the other hand is like going to one of the service academys for medicine...you will have a distinct advantage in military education as well as networking over HPSP students. On the other hand if making a career out of the military isn't what you have in mind, or if you aren't yet sure, then HPSP is probably the way to go. If you decide you enjoy the military and want to make a career out of it HPSP by no means is a death sentence for your career, many HPSP docs have had very successful careers and have made it to the top of the food chain so to speak. In fact USU is such a new school that it's first graduating class is just now getting to the point where they are making the higher ranks. At any rate, if you plan on doing your payback and then getting out, HPSP is probably the way to go since you have a shorter payback time, and you get to pick the school you attend. In the civilian world going to a "prestegious" school might pay dividends.
So basically if your plan is to get your school paid for, spend a little time serving your country and then get out and get on with your life in my opinion HPSP is definitely the way to go. On the other hand if you plan on being a career medical officer in the military no school can match what going to USU will do for you.
So basically if your plan is to get your school paid for, spend a little time serving your country and then get out and get on with your life in my opinion HPSP is definitely the way to go. On the other hand if you plan on being a career medical officer in the military no school can match what going to USU will do for you.
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I disagree with what tman has to say about the utility of being a USUHS alum advancing a military career. The military's finest doctors come from all walks. Which civilian med school you attend and how well you do at that school will affect your career will affect a military medical career, just as much as attending USUHS. Beyond medical school, advancing a career (in the Medical Corps - as opposed to the military academy advancing an infantryman's career) depends more on your accomplishments and evaluations during residency which will likely be in the military anyway - intelligence, research, and other accolades play important roles. Post-training, career-advancement is still in the officer's hands - it is definitely not dictated by alma mater.
I will say that the prestige of the civilian school I attended meant a great deal to the program I chose - they were not reluctant so say that my school advanced my standing immensely. Believe me military docs understand and accord respect to the same schools that civilian docs do.
With that said, I encourage HPSP - tuition and fees don't matter, because they're 100% covered no matter how much. And I was able to live completely off the stipend without taking out any loans or paying anything out of pocket. The money was completely sufficient. Finally, you will have more flexibility since you incur fewer years of obligation.
Loyola is a fantastic school (I'm from IL and I looked at it closely) and I know I would have been extremely happy there. The military will gladly welcome a Loyola grad. Good luck with your decision. If you have any questions please ask.
By the way, I'll moving to DC for my residency at Walter Reed - I'll be working closely with USUHS students....
I will say that the prestige of the civilian school I attended meant a great deal to the program I chose - they were not reluctant so say that my school advanced my standing immensely. Believe me military docs understand and accord respect to the same schools that civilian docs do.
With that said, I encourage HPSP - tuition and fees don't matter, because they're 100% covered no matter how much. And I was able to live completely off the stipend without taking out any loans or paying anything out of pocket. The money was completely sufficient. Finally, you will have more flexibility since you incur fewer years of obligation.
Loyola is a fantastic school (I'm from IL and I looked at it closely) and I know I would have been extremely happy there. The military will gladly welcome a Loyola grad. Good luck with your decision. If you have any questions please ask.
By the way, I'll moving to DC for my residency at Walter Reed - I'll be working closely with USUHS students....
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Give me a break Lt. Ub,
Where in my reply did I state that going to USU is going to make or break your career or "your career in the military is Dictated by your alma mater"? In civilian practice does having a medical degree from the number one medical school in the nation automatically ensure that you will have an outstanding career? No but it sure as heck don't hurt either. Do you really think that the DOD and Congress would go through the trouble and expense of building and running a medical school if there were no need or benefits to its graduates? The military could certainly get enough docs through the HPSP with no need for USUHS if numbers was the issue, heck they did just that until the early 80's. Obviously your career rests overwhelmingly on how well you perform your job and your accomplishments, I assumed that people on here were bright enough to understand that just having a degree from USU isn't going to make you a shoe in for O-9. As far as the lack of utility of being a USU alum goes apparently you would be surprised if you looked at the statics of the first few classes and where they are in their careers compared to their non-USUHS peers. The simple fact of the matter is that HPSP acquisitions are expected to do their four years and get out, naturally some will decide they like the military and decide to stay but the vast majority get out. It doesn't make financial sense to most HPSP'ers to stay in. Once an HPSP doc who has done a civilian residency finishes his commitment he has a whopping 4 years time in service, that means 16 more years of active duty before he is eligible to retire. On the other hand a USUHS grad is expected to be a career medical officer because by the time their committment is finished they have over ten years (for someone who has done a three year residency and more for a longer residency), plus you get credit for retirement pay purposes for the time you spent at USUHS. As far as applying for residency, sure, for an HPSP student, doing well at a prestigious civilian med school might win you a few points against his fellow HPSP'ers, however, if you take two identical applications and put USUHS on one and Loyola on the other guess which one will get the job? USUHS grads undoubtedly have an advantage when it comes to the military residency match, that is straight from last year's president of the JSGMESB, largely because the committment they have made to the military also because USUHS grads pretty much have to do a military residency as opposed to HPSP which can get a deferment for a civilian residency. At any rate, there is a lot to be said for both programs and you really can't go wrong either way, but all BS aside, if your goal is to be a career military medical officer, benefits or no benefits, why would you want to spend the same amount of time in training as a USUHS grad but only get credit for a fraction of what a USU grad gets towards pay and retirement? Likewise, if you just want your school paid for and don't want to make a long committment to the military, why would you go to USUHS where you're going to be wearing a uniform for a minimum of 14 years?
Where in my reply did I state that going to USU is going to make or break your career or "your career in the military is Dictated by your alma mater"? In civilian practice does having a medical degree from the number one medical school in the nation automatically ensure that you will have an outstanding career? No but it sure as heck don't hurt either. Do you really think that the DOD and Congress would go through the trouble and expense of building and running a medical school if there were no need or benefits to its graduates? The military could certainly get enough docs through the HPSP with no need for USUHS if numbers was the issue, heck they did just that until the early 80's. Obviously your career rests overwhelmingly on how well you perform your job and your accomplishments, I assumed that people on here were bright enough to understand that just having a degree from USU isn't going to make you a shoe in for O-9. As far as the lack of utility of being a USU alum goes apparently you would be surprised if you looked at the statics of the first few classes and where they are in their careers compared to their non-USUHS peers. The simple fact of the matter is that HPSP acquisitions are expected to do their four years and get out, naturally some will decide they like the military and decide to stay but the vast majority get out. It doesn't make financial sense to most HPSP'ers to stay in. Once an HPSP doc who has done a civilian residency finishes his commitment he has a whopping 4 years time in service, that means 16 more years of active duty before he is eligible to retire. On the other hand a USUHS grad is expected to be a career medical officer because by the time their committment is finished they have over ten years (for someone who has done a three year residency and more for a longer residency), plus you get credit for retirement pay purposes for the time you spent at USUHS. As far as applying for residency, sure, for an HPSP student, doing well at a prestigious civilian med school might win you a few points against his fellow HPSP'ers, however, if you take two identical applications and put USUHS on one and Loyola on the other guess which one will get the job? USUHS grads undoubtedly have an advantage when it comes to the military residency match, that is straight from last year's president of the JSGMESB, largely because the committment they have made to the military also because USUHS grads pretty much have to do a military residency as opposed to HPSP which can get a deferment for a civilian residency. At any rate, there is a lot to be said for both programs and you really can't go wrong either way, but all BS aside, if your goal is to be a career military medical officer, benefits or no benefits, why would you want to spend the same amount of time in training as a USUHS grad but only get credit for a fraction of what a USU grad gets towards pay and retirement? Likewise, if you just want your school paid for and don't want to make a long committment to the military, why would you go to USUHS where you're going to be wearing a uniform for a minimum of 14 years?
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Hey Bafanculo,
If you want my "unbiased" advice ::cough, cough:: go for Loyola!!! Loyola Loyola Loyola! (Haha, actually USU is my top choice at the moment so if you'd like to free up a spot for me, I'd be very happy). On a more serious note, as tman has said and reiterated, only pick USU if you want to go career military med. Otherwise, leave the seat for those of us who are really ready to make the commitment.
If you want my "unbiased" advice ::cough, cough:: go for Loyola!!! Loyola Loyola Loyola! (Haha, actually USU is my top choice at the moment so if you'd like to free up a spot for me, I'd be very happy). On a more serious note, as tman has said and reiterated, only pick USU if you want to go career military med. Otherwise, leave the seat for those of us who are really ready to make the commitment.
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tman,
Relax... I was just struck by what you said in your earlier post:
"If you plan on making a career out of the military no school in the U.S. will help you in your career more than USUHS, you could graduate from Harvard Med or Hopkins, and in the military that wouldn't mean anything more than if you graduated from a state school."
That's a pretty strong statement, and I daresay misleading. But I completely agree with everything you just said in your second post.
And just as an aside, I think it's also important to note that there is a significant minority of us out there who did ROTC (or some other form of prior service) as well as HPSP and were wholeheartedly devoted to a career even before starting the process.
All this to say to bafanculo that a spectrum of military and medical experience exists in the medical corps, and your alma mater will play an appropriately minor role after residency. Make your pro and con list for each school and have "military career" as one of the many influences on your decision. Make sure to heed what your gut is telling you.
Hu-ah!
Beat Navy
Relax... I was just struck by what you said in your earlier post:
"If you plan on making a career out of the military no school in the U.S. will help you in your career more than USUHS, you could graduate from Harvard Med or Hopkins, and in the military that wouldn't mean anything more than if you graduated from a state school."
That's a pretty strong statement, and I daresay misleading. But I completely agree with everything you just said in your second post.
And just as an aside, I think it's also important to note that there is a significant minority of us out there who did ROTC (or some other form of prior service) as well as HPSP and were wholeheartedly devoted to a career even before starting the process.
All this to say to bafanculo that a spectrum of military and medical experience exists in the medical corps, and your alma mater will play an appropriately minor role after residency. Make your pro and con list for each school and have "military career" as one of the many influences on your decision. Make sure to heed what your gut is telling you.
Hu-ah!
Beat Navy
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Just curious..............does residency for a USUHS student count toward the twenty years of service??? I know it doesnt count toward the 7 year repayment but if I go to USUHS, will I only have to serve 10 more years before I am eligible for retirement?? (3 years residency + 7 years repayment). For some reason, I thought residency didnt count towards retirement. Someone please clear this up, thanks.
Jetson
Jetson
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Hey!
This is probably not correct cause I can't find anything on it, but I remember reading something like it doesn't count towards retirement years until you actually hit retirement, then they add your residency years on to count towards retirement pay. So if you have a 3 year residency, then you work for the air force for 20 years, when you retire, you retire with 23 years pay.
If anyone knows if this is true or not, please correct me! I'd love to hear the answer. . .
This is probably not correct cause I can't find anything on it, but I remember reading something like it doesn't count towards retirement years until you actually hit retirement, then they add your residency years on to count towards retirement pay. So if you have a 3 year residency, then you work for the air force for 20 years, when you retire, you retire with 23 years pay.
If anyone knows if this is true or not, please correct me! I'd love to hear the answer. . .
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Hey abw,
Im not sure if that is right or not but I do know that once you hit the 20th year, you can count your years at USUHS towards retirement which would make it 24 years. I read that in the student handbook USUHS sent to me..........still unsure about the residency though.
Jetson
Im not sure if that is right or not but I do know that once you hit the 20th year, you can count your years at USUHS towards retirement which would make it 24 years. I read that in the student handbook USUHS sent to me..........still unsure about the residency though.
Jetson
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The 4 years at USUHS do not count until retirement (20 becomes 24).
The residency years count for years in service for pay, and they count towards retirement, but not for payback.
Example: A student with no prior service enters USUHS as an O-1 with 0 years of service. She incurs a 7 year payback after residency. After graduation, she is promoted to O-3. She does an internship year, and then 3 years of residency (total of 4 years of GME). After the 7 year payback, here is how she stands.
She 11 years of service credited toward retirement
In 9 years she can retire with 24 years of service (60% of base pay at retirement).
Example #2: A student with 3 years of prior service. He enters USUHS as an O-1 with 3 years of service. He incurs a 7 year payback. After graduation he is promoted to O-3 (possibly closer to O-4 promotion that his classmates with no prior service). He does the same internship and 3 year residency as in the first example. After the 7 year payback, here are his stats:
He has 14 years of service credited toward retirement
In 6 years he can retire with 24 years of service.
Does that make sense?
The residency years count for years in service for pay, and they count towards retirement, but not for payback.
Example: A student with no prior service enters USUHS as an O-1 with 0 years of service. She incurs a 7 year payback after residency. After graduation, she is promoted to O-3. She does an internship year, and then 3 years of residency (total of 4 years of GME). After the 7 year payback, here is how she stands.
She 11 years of service credited toward retirement
In 9 years she can retire with 24 years of service (60% of base pay at retirement).
Example #2: A student with 3 years of prior service. He enters USUHS as an O-1 with 3 years of service. He incurs a 7 year payback. After graduation he is promoted to O-3 (possibly closer to O-4 promotion that his classmates with no prior service). He does the same internship and 3 year residency as in the first example. After the 7 year payback, here are his stats:
He has 14 years of service credited toward retirement
In 6 years he can retire with 24 years of service.
Does that make sense?
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I figure I should weigh in on the debate, If you look at the match statistics (at least for PGY-1) USUHS and HPSP are virtually identical. This may change somewhat for the PGY-2 match. Unfortunately, the PGY-2 match stats are not published and they factor in things like potential as a military officer.
Ed
Ed
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ed, Lt Ub et al...,
The fact of the matter is that both programs have a very good match rate, and I don't think it's possible to say that one is better than the other. For the reasons I stated above, especially in my second post I think the best you could say is one might better suit a person's preference over the other. If I came off a little brash on my previous posts it happens sometimes...being a Sgt for as many years as I was before I became commissioned and came to USU left me kind of old and crusty like that...Ahhh the good ol' days when life was so much simpler😀 At any rate, best of luck to you all, Lt Ub, enjoy WRAMC I'll probably run into you there sometime, maybe some of that crust will be worn off by then...
P.S. Ed, based on your post on the "Army Residency" thread, sounds like med school has gotten you a little crusty too...you might have been a hell of a Sergeant
The fact of the matter is that both programs have a very good match rate, and I don't think it's possible to say that one is better than the other. For the reasons I stated above, especially in my second post I think the best you could say is one might better suit a person's preference over the other. If I came off a little brash on my previous posts it happens sometimes...being a Sgt for as many years as I was before I became commissioned and came to USU left me kind of old and crusty like that...Ahhh the good ol' days when life was so much simpler😀 At any rate, best of luck to you all, Lt Ub, enjoy WRAMC I'll probably run into you there sometime, maybe some of that crust will be worn off by then...
P.S. Ed, based on your post on the "Army Residency" thread, sounds like med school has gotten you a little crusty too...you might have been a hell of a Sergeant
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I accord full respect and honot to former Sgt tman. Indeed, if I had known your background I would have hardly considered your statement "crusty."
See you on the front.
With solidarity,
Lt. Ub
See you on the front.
With solidarity,
Lt. Ub
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I can't speak for the other two branches but in the Navy...USUHS grads ARE guaranteed an internship OVER the HPSP'rs. We were told this at OIS in front of the entire HPSP class..they were pissed. So as tman stated earlier it does pay to be a USUHS grad.
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Bafanculo,
I had a similar choice to make. University of Washington (my home-state medical school) or USUHS. UW is a good school and has relatively low tuition (~10K).
I realized that I could do the HPSP or the FAP, but I after weighing the pros and cons, USUHS won out.
Good luck to you on your choice.
I had a similar choice to make. University of Washington (my home-state medical school) or USUHS. UW is a good school and has relatively low tuition (~10K).
I realized that I could do the HPSP or the FAP, but I after weighing the pros and cons, USUHS won out.
Good luck to you on your choice.
