honey0102

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Did anyone else feel burned to a crisp as a M3?
They say it is uphill from here but when is that? m4? residency? junior attending?
Being at the utter whim of preceptors...who can be as abusive or not as they want. School standards making it increasingly difficult to Honor. Crazy hours. And I mean, life still happens-I got into a bad car accident a few days ago (other driver ticketed)...and, med school leaves you no time to deal with it. Still need to do all the scutwork despite paying $$$ to be there.

I felt M1/2 were hard but M3 truly is drinking from the fire hydrant-no matter how much you study, there's so much you don't know. A nice preceptor knows you aren't an intern. But some expect you to be at intern level.
If the entire path is this way-how do people find the time to have a family? To go golfing? Etc. I don't even have time to deal with a car accident. Made to still work full hours day of accident-couldn't even make it to the dealership, call insurance asap, etc. My classmates have a hard time getting time off for valid reasons too. So those of you in medicine who make it work with families etc-how do you do it?
 

AMEHigh

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To be honest, for me I really felt "free" once I finished residency. For me things got better during residency, but it was still difficult with attendings picking apart things regularly.
Yes of course being an attending is difficult and there is more pressure because the decisions are all yours, but there is something really refreshing to feel like your time is yours, you can study/read on your own time, etc.

As far as the time to do things you like and have an outside life. Well this is why I chose the specialty I did. Having a life outside of my work is SO important to me. I personally wouldn't chose a specialty that had me on call q2-3 days and working 80+ hours per week more often than not. With more "normal" medicine hours it really isn't too bad to get in the things you enjoy. It takes planning and balance.

Hang in there, it does get better with time in my experience. And also never be afraid to use counseling services that your school offers. That's what they're there for. Best of luck!
 

Sterling_Archer

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Mar 14, 2018
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3rd year is hard and you raised many valid points; however, not having a day off to deal with a car accident just sounds like your school doesn't care about wellness. After you get your grade for this rotation you should talk with your dean of students about your team not giving you time to deal with an important life event. Was it your resident/attending who told you that you had to come in anyways? That shouldn't be the norm for medical education, and certainly isn't at my school. My brakes were grinding during a rotation and I mentioned needing to get it fixed and my attending told me to leave and take care of it. That's how it should be.
Did anyone else feel burned to a crisp as a M3?
They say it is uphill from here but when is that? m4? residency? junior attending?
Being at the utter whim of preceptors...who can be as abusive or not as they want. School standards making it increasingly difficult to Honor. Crazy hours. And I mean, life still happens-I got into a bad car accident a few days ago (other driver ticketed)...and, med school leaves you no time to deal with it. Still need to do all the scutwork despite paying $$$ to be there.

I felt M1/2 were hard but M3 truly is drinking from the fire hydrant-no matter how much you study, there's so much you don't know. A nice preceptor knows you aren't an intern. But some expect you to be at intern level.
If the entire path is this way-how do people find the time to have a family? To go golfing? Etc. I don't even have time to deal with a car accident. Made to still work full hours day of accident-couldn't even make it to the dealership, call insurance asap, etc. My classmates have a hard time getting time off for valid reasons too. So those of you in medicine who make it work with families etc-how do you do it?
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ball123

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3rd year was very hard. I was in your same boat. Now I’m in ophthalmology residency and love every minute of it. It gets better! Light at the end of the tunnel!
 

dienekes88

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Jan 21, 2008
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Did anyone else feel burned to a crisp as a M3?
They say it is uphill from here but when is that? m4? residency? junior attending?
Being at the utter whim of preceptors...who can be as abusive or not as they want. School standards making it increasingly difficult to Honor. Crazy hours. And I mean, life still happens-I got into a bad car accident a few days ago (other driver ticketed)...and, med school leaves you no time to deal with it. Still need to do all the scutwork despite paying $$$ to be there.

I felt M1/2 were hard but M3 truly is drinking from the fire hydrant-no matter how much you study, there's so much you don't know. A nice preceptor knows you aren't an intern. But some expect you to be at intern level.
If the entire path is this way-how do people find the time to have a family? To go golfing? Etc. I don't even have time to deal with a car accident. Made to still work full hours day of accident-couldn't even make it to the dealership, call insurance asap, etc. My classmates have a hard time getting time off for valid reasons too. So those of you in medicine who make it work with families etc-how do you do it?
Anyone who tells you that you can have it all (superparent, amazing spouse, perfect student/resident) is lying to you. There are rare people who can do it all, but those people are special. The rest of us just give it 100% everyday and come up short on a lot of things. You end up putting off getting your car looked at until your next vacation. You sometimes can't make it to the dentist for 5 or 6 years.

These are opportunities to cultivate resiliency rather than bemoan your plight.

Definitely work this into your thought process when considering specialties.
 

sharkbyte

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I feel you OP. M3 year is difficult. I felt I got lucky and came away from it relatively unscathed in terms of my rotations and my evaluations but it's a tough year. During M1/M2 years your schedule is basically your own and your only real responsibility is to study for exams with some mandatory activities thrown in here or there. Then you get to M3 year and it's the first year you start spending long hours in the hospital and constantly feel the need to impress people. The early starts were rough for me, I remember toward the end of my surgery rotation I was dragging and there were some mornings on the way to the hospital where I really felt like driving the car back home and getting back in bed.

I can only talk for M4 year, but now that sub-Is and applications are in, I have a ton more free time and it's been great. My school also gives us 3 months off for M4 year to use for interviews/Step 2/vacation so QOL goes up quite a bit. Can't speak for residency or beyond.
 

LoGo

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When I was in med school and still now in residency I literally just told preceptors and residents that I had to go deal with XYZ, so I’d be an hr late the next day or leave an hr early end of day if there was something I needed to do (doctors/dentist appointment, car service etc). Obviously tailor this based on the rotation you’re on (eg if you’re on surgery, leave early rather than show up late and miss rounds and OR starts - time dentist appts for rotations you don’t care about etc). Sometimes you just have your own crap to deal with and just because you’re a student it doesn’t mean all that other stuff goes on hold.
 
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honey0102

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When I was in med school and still now in residency I literally just told preceptors and residents that I had to go deal with XYZ, so I’d be an hr late the next day or leave an hr early end of day if there was something I needed to do (doctors/dentist appointment, car service etc). Obviously tailor this based on the rotation you’re on (eg if you’re on surgery, leave early rather than show up late and miss rounds and OR starts - time dentist appts for rotations you don’t care about etc). Sometimes you just have your own crap to deal with and just because you’re a student it doesn’t mean all that other stuff goes on hold.
The thing is there is a lot of scutwork that no one else wants to do, that ends up falling on me as the med student. There are times when the residents/preceptors all go home but leave me to do the scutwork. Even in a situation like this-would it be ok to ask for time off (1 hr) to get a car fixed? It was damaged to the point of not being usable
 

LoGo

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The thing is there is a lot of scutwork that no one else wants to do, that ends up falling on me as the med student. There are times when the residents/preceptors all go home but leave me to do the scutwork. Even in a situation like this-would it be ok to ask for time off (1 hr) to get a car fixed? It was damaged to the point of not being usable
Absolutely. It’s not your scutwork, you’re just there to help and learn. In a scenario where you get into a car accident that renders the car unusable, that’s a quick “Hey Dr. XYZ, I got rear ended this morning and my car got totalled. I’m ok, but unfortunately I will (A) not be in to work today or (B) have to leave today at ____ o’clock, to deal with getting it to a repair shop and dealing with insurance.” You just tell them that first thing in the morning then send them a courtesy page when you leave. If they don’t like it, you report them to the med school.

You learn how to work hard in med school for sure, but it’s also a good place to learn how to not get pushed around and become a yes man/woman.
 
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honey0102

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Absolutely. It’s not your scutwork, you’re just there to help and learn. In a scenario where you get into a car accident that renders the car unusable, that’s a quick “Hey Dr. XYZ, I got rear ended this morning and my car got totalled. I’m ok, but unfortunately I will (A) not be in to work today or (B) have to leave today at ____ o’clock, to deal with getting it to a repair shop and dealing with insurance.” You just tell them that first thing in the morning then send them a courtesy page when you leave. If they don’t like it, you report them to the med school.

You learn how to work hard in med school for sure, but it’s also a good place to learn how to not get pushed around and become a yes man/woman.
Thanks a ton. Really appreciate your help :) I wish every preceptor was like you!
 
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shemer77

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For some people I think it is normal to feel burned out as an M3. I would wait another year as it does get better and if your still feeling burnt out maybe need to re-evalute things
 

CyrilFiggis

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Absolutely. It’s not your scutwork, you’re just there to help and learn. In a scenario where you get into a car accident that renders the car unusable, that’s a quick “Hey Dr. XYZ, I got rear ended this morning and my car got totalled. I’m ok, but unfortunately I will (A) not be in to work today or (B) have to leave today at ____ o’clock, to deal with getting it to a repair shop and dealing with insurance.” You just tell them that first thing in the morning then send them a courtesy page when you leave. If they don’t like it, you report them to the med school.

You learn how to work hard in med school for sure, but it’s also a good place to learn how to not get pushed around and become a yes man/woman.
Also make sure to copy the site director or clerkship director on the email. It sounds like whatever service you're on the residents are burned out and they will not remember the issue weeks from now. Be professional in your communication as LoGo showed.


Did anyone else feel burned to a crisp as a M3?
In general, third year is the hardest because unlike 1/2 year which is mentally taxing, 3rd year is physically taxing. Your time is dictated by others with the expectation that you figure out how to shift the rest of your life around it. However that does not excuse residents and preceptors from taking advantage of you or not allowing you to handle emergencies. 4th year however is awesome so there is a small light.
 

Sterling_Archer

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Also make sure to copy the site director or clerkship director on the email. It sounds like whatever service you're on the residents are burned out and they will not remember the issue weeks from now. Be professional in your communication as LoGo showed.



In general, third year is the hardest because unlike 1/2 year which is mentally taxing, 3rd year is physically taxing. Your time is dictated by others with the expectation that you figure out how to shift the rest of your life around it. However that does not excuse residents and preceptors from taking advantage of you or not allowing you to handle emergencies. 4th year however is awesome so there is a small light.
Love the vegas profile pic
 
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honey0102

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For some people I think it is normal to feel burned out as an M3. I would wait another year as it does get better and if your still feeling burnt out maybe need to re-evalute things
For record didnt feel this burned out during Step studying.
M3 is burning me out because...I'm being worked like a hog. Constantly doing scutwork. Staying long after all the residents/preceptors go home to finish up notes that no one else wants to do. Then shelf studying. On top of it-knowing as m3's, we have no respect-if the nurses have a bad day, they yell at us. Preceptors in some previous rotations have been verbally abusive. On gen surg, I've wiped away tears seconds before smiling for a patient and his family. As a M3, I've realized we must take abuse and unfairness from anyone and everyone-we're never allowed to be human-as evidenced by the lack of consideration I got after a car accident.
And on top of it, as I'm rushing to get notes done for my preceptor, I get on the spot pimp questions thrown at me in rapid succession-many way beyond the scope of M3, too complicated to look up in the 60 seconds between seeing a patient and presenting them. This happened even on the day of my accident...when I was still in shock from it all...
All this sometimes makes me wonder how anyone even made it out of medical school...it seemed tough but doable heading into M3..and now, it seems just about impossible...I'm starting to lose confidence in my doctoring abilities even though I know I shouldn't be.
 
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libertyyne

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I am sorry you are going through this. Third year can be though at times. The hours, the unspoken expectations, the exams.
That being said, I think , having a different perspective helps a lot.
I came into third year expecting to get yelled at everyday , get pimped , be used for unnecessary scut and having to deal with difficult personalities. Some of it came true, but on the same hand it was much tamer than what I anticipated. The key to surviving third year is acknowledging that you are going to get **** on, that you are the bottom of the pole in terms of rank, and respect, and knowing that it is only temporary. You only have to deal with the capricious nature of school administrators for a short time longer.
It sucks being at the bottom, not knowing basic things, being uprooted every week or few weeks. Having to suck up and deal with a new set of personalities. But consider it part of your training, consider the time crunch part of your training, and you can assert yourself by showing that you will rise above this and not only meet but exceed the challenge. You will deal with difficult personalities for the rest of your life in terms of hospital admins, patients, other docs. These skills you obtain will help you along the way. so will time management.

Also remember that if someone gives you crap with their attitude it is a reflection of that person not necessarily you. If you get a pimp question wrong ? so what? there is always another place to shine, like notes, differential, patient interactions, procedural skills.

Also acknowledge that not everyone is going to love you and give you glowing evals, but it is still possible to do well on rotations.
I have been enjoying third year immensely with this perspective. I have been honoring a good chunk of my rotations, and I am not perfect, I dont answer pimp questions correctly all the time. I do however try to do the best I can at all times, and try to learn as much as I can both outside rotations or during them, mostly outside though. My cars need to be serviced, my lawn looks like crap, there are a dozen things around the house that need fixing, and i eat terrible food most of the time, but its ok. this too will pass and the important things are humming along like my education and my bond with my family.
And I am looking forward to when the day is going to come when I will be holding that pager, or writing those orders, or making those incisions.
Keep your eye on the prize.
 
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honey0102

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I am sorry you are going through this. Third year can be though at times. The hours, the unspoken expectations, the exams.
That being said, I think , having a different perspective helps a lot.
I came into third year expecting to get yelled at everyday , get pimped , be used for unnecessary scut and having to deal with difficult personalities. Some of it came true, but on the same hand it was much tamer than what I anticipated. The key to surviving third year is acknowledging that you are going to get **** on, that you are the bottom of the pole in terms of rank, and respect, and knowing that it is only temporary. You only have to deal with the capricious nature of school administrators for a short time longer.
It sucks being at the bottom, not knowing basic things, being uprooted every week or few weeks. Having to suck up and deal with a new set of personalities. But consider it part of your training, consider the time crunch part of your training, and you can assert yourself by showing that you will rise above this and not only meet but exceed the challenge. You will deal with difficult personalities for the rest of your life in terms of hospital admins, patients, other docs. These skills you obtain will help you along the way. so will time management.

Also remember that if someone gives you crap with their attitude it is a reflection of that person not necessarily you. If you get a pimp question wrong ? so what? there is always another place to shine, like notes, differential, patient interactions, procedural skills.

Also acknowledge that not everyone is going to love you and give you glowing evals, but it is still possible to do well on rotations.
I have been enjoying third year immensely with this perspective. I have been honoring a good chunk of my rotations, and I am not perfect, I dont answer pimp questions correctly all the time. I do however try to do the best I can at all times, and try to learn as much as I can both outside rotations or during them, mostly outside though. My cars need to be serviced, my lawn looks like crap, there are a dozen things around the house that need fixing, and i eat terrible food most of the time, but its ok. this too will pass and the important things are humming along like my education and my bond with my family.
And I am looking forward to when the day is going to come when I will be holding that pager, or writing those orders, or making those incisions.
Keep your eye on the prize.
Thanks so much. Will try to maintain a similar perspective
 

NickNaylor

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MS3 is tough for a variety of reasons: it's stressful, you're working long hours, you changes services and team members frequently, and grading can feel arbitrary. I think what you're feeling is normal. I don't have any particular advice to give other than to do your best but recognize your limits. Perfection is not the expectation (regardless of what others tell you) - work hard and do your best, but be satisfied with that rather than the outcome.

Disabuse yourself of the notion that "it gets better" as you get through training. That's not to say that all aspects of the career or negative - they certainly are not, and I've found my work a lot more enjoyable as I've progressed in my training and now career - but there is no magical nirvana that you reach where everything is perfect and you find your "dream job." The things that you find frustrating, that waste your time, and that you would rather not deal with simply change. Again, I have found my work as a physician more and more enjoyable and fulfilling as I've gone on, but now that I'm an attending in practice I have yet to arrive at this magical place where everything is perfect.
 
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