M4 thinking strongly about applying to Rad Onc: Why is there so much dissonance between opinions real life and the internet?

[w00tz]

I'm fine with physicists making good/decent money. Many of the new grads are PhDs (5-6 years) and residency trained (1-2 years). Not too much shorter than our training (unless you are MD/PhD). Depending on how well staffed the physics side of the department is, they may be grinding away, doing QA on nights/weekends. Some become really clinically oriented over time as well. A good physicist in the department can make a world of difference. And yes, their boards are hard as hell. Don't they take on a decent amount of liability as well?

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[medgator]

I'm fine with physicists making good/decent money. Many of the new grads are PhDs (5-6 years) and residency trained (1-2 years). Not too much shorter than our training (unless you are MD/PhD). Depending on how well staffed the physics side of the department is, they may be grinding away, doing QA on nights/weekends. Some become really clinically oriented over time as well. A good physicist in the department can make a world of difference. And yes, their boards are hard as hell.

completely agree

Don't they take on a decent amount of liability as well?

Not that I am aware of. There is no MedMal for physicists AFAIK. They do have CMEs, SAMs/MOC etc they have to do to keep up their board certification.

 

[medgator]

Sad but true...there are some geographies where the physicists are making nearly as much as the MDs. Heard from my physics buddy that it's becoming increasingly hard to hire a physicist for <200k. This is just my n=1 in a specific geography...Speaking of physics, I've heard their oral board pass rate is only 50%!

Yup, very hard to find a good BC physicist. Apparently the rules changed a few years ago so they have all to go through residency now instead of getting on the job training and passing their boards. Easier to find new grads, but if you want a BC physicist with plenty of experience? Pay up

 

[Neuronix]

If you go into academics, you'll get a startup package of $1-2 million; a heme/onc might get $5 million

Wait I just noticed this. That is really optimistic. I'm a well qualified MD/PhD, and I am willing to go anywhere to be a physician-scientist, including international. I requested research fellowships from multiple organizations (major academic centers, NIH, etc) to buff my CV and get more funding and was rejected by numerous big name places. I was offered the usual "advanced radiotherapy" fellowships with the best offer at 50% protected time--which I heard was really 20% protected in reality.

My initial startup package as faculty after a national search was 10% protected time. I didn't even get a parking space my first year. I was split among the main center (only because I pushed very hard to be at the main center) and two different satellites. I used my money out of my own pocket to conduct even the most simple of experiments.

It takes significant institutional support and many years of time to be competitive for R01s. You don't just write a big grant with some idea and it magically gets funded. You need a track record of funding with smaller grants, a team of others working with you, and significant preliminary data. As a new investigator you don't bring all this with you or write some grant and immediately it all appears. That's the idea of the startup package, but good luck actually getting one. I wonder what percentage of MD/PhDs in radiation oncology are successful enough to eventually get an R01 or equivalent. It has to be well less than 10%.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

My initial startup package as faculty after a national search was 10% protected time. I didn't even get a parking space my first year. I was split among the main center (only because I pushed very hard to be at the main center) and two different satellites. I used my money out of my own pocket to conduct even the most simple of experiments.

Wow. I hope things have progressed from there.

 

[scarbrtj]

Wow. I hope things have progressed from there.

Heck. If I read this as a premed I'd think about rethinking medicine.

 

[Neuronix]

Wow. I hope things have progressed from there.

Things did improve. I burned myself out writing and submitting numerous grants on top of a full clinical load and eventually got myself a K award a few years into my faculty position. Things totally changed after that, but I consider myself very lucky. It has required ultimate flexibility--a lot of hours, no location choice, plenty of strain on my immediate family, and I had to change disease site focus from my residency research to faculty research to make this all work.

I'm really worried about what happens when the K runs out if I don't get significant funding again, but I'll have to deal with that later.

 

[PleaseRemainCalm]

Things did improve. I burned myself out writing and submitting numerous grants on top of a full clinical load and eventually got myself a K award a few years into my faculty position. Things totally changed after that, but I consider myself very lucky. It has required ultimate flexibility--a lot of hours, no location choice, plenty of strain on my immediate family, and I had to change disease site focus from my residency research to faculty research to make this all work.

I'm really worried about what happens when the K runs out if I don't get significant funding again, but I'll have to deal with that later.

You are certainly putting in the work so I'm sure you will be in that minority that is able to keep getting new grants.

 

[evilbooyaa]

You are certainly putting in the work so I'm sure you will be in that minority that is able to keep getting new grants.

Agreed. @Neuronix it takes a special type of person to have the persistence to play the grant chasing game. I don't (and won't) have that, ever, I don't think. But you do and I expect your efforts to be fruitful, even if it's not on an 'ideal' timeline.

Also, I've anecdotally heard that once you get one, it improves your track record (almost like a credit score) and it's 'easier' to continue funding rather than starting from scratch.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Agreed. @Neuronix it takes a special type of person to have the persistence to play the grant chasing game. I don't (and won't) have that, ever, I don't think. But you do and I expect your efforts to be fruitful, even if it's not on an 'ideal' timeline.

Also, I've anecdotally heard that once you get one, it improves your track record (almost like a credit score) and it's 'easier' to continue funding rather than starting from scratch.

Yes. As long as you have data from that first grant. Good luck!

 

[medgator]

Do you have personal knowledge of this job posting? @fiji128 appears to have inside knowledge about this job, like IRL. A recent PM from somebody who knows of this job personally says it's the red-headed stepchild of UKentucky.

The job posting can say whatever it wants - people are posting personal first or second-hand experiences. None of the stuff on the job posting is binding, it's the contract that is.

Still open!

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