Major differences between an Associates degree in Nursing vs. a Bachelor's.

[Farmer Jane]

Let's just make this super simple;

BSN = offered at state and unviersities
ADN = offered at community colleges...

Except, it's not that simple. The science and nursing courses are the same. The difference is general education courses.

Also, it's always struck me as very odd that people compare universities with technical colleges. They have completely different purposes, with the exception of only a few programs. There is no such thing as cosmetology program at a four-year university, nor is there a biology program at a technical college. Apples and oranges, unless Wisconsin is a different planet or something.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[pola729]

Your options for anything. If you get a BSN degree, and later you decide you want to pursue a graduate degree, whether in nursing or business administration, or you want to go to medical school, law school, vet school, or get a PhD in something like psychology or education, you'll be able to do so without having to go back and earn your BSN or BS/BA.

An associate's degree is not a real degree in the academic world, whereas a bachelor's degree is. Spend the extra time and money and get a BSN degree. You won't regret it.

hi, i have a question. maybe u can give me an advice. i have BA in psychology and i am thinking to get associates in nursing. do u think it worth it or not? thank you!

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

hi, i have a question. maybe u can give me an advice. i have BA in psychology and i am thinking to get associates in nursing. do u think it worth it or not? thank you!

ADN at a community college = cheap tuition.

But I would look into an accelerated BSN program, because you already have the BA. You can take prereqs at the community college (micro, chem, A&P).

My hospital only hires BSNs now, so if you get an ADN, you may have gone through a lot of work but have limited job opportunities.

Or ,you can get the ADN, then do an ADN-BSN program, but from what I can tell, they are pretty stupid programs.

Oldiebutgoodie

 

[ChillyRN]

One of the posts on the first page suggests the going rate for RNs in rural areas is around $25/h. Well, just for the curious in western NC, the starting pay for new grad BSNs (not to fuel that debate, but we don't hire ADNs) is $17.85/h. Avg is $23.35, top of the scale is $29.45, which is for MSN prepared nurses with a minimum of 20 years experience. Differential for nights is $2/h, weekends $2/h. Specialty certifications such as CEN or CCRN pay an additional 0.50/hour.

I didn't realize this was an old thread, which makes it even worse. And this is 2 years later than that post was written! Amazing.

moral of the story is, we don't all live in California, lol, and now you know why I'm happy to take a NP job for 65K! That's for days, w/o call, weekends or holidays, it's a freaking gold mine, lol. Yup, DNP or no DNP, I'll skip all the wy to the bank with that paycheck!

 

[chimichanga]

there isn't a difference per se...

the student and the faculty (clinical instructors) are the 'X factor' that determine any differences between programs (entrance requirements notwithstanding)

i've taught in both...

and shame on any employer who (as chilly put it) won't hire ADNs (just because the applicant does not posses a BSN)...it's a very short sided way of thinking...

hire the person not the degree...

 

[slick27]

What about getting an RN from one of those private for profit schools? Is this a good or bad idea?

 

[chimichanga]

online programs are fine for an MSN who wants to lecture and teach...NOT for an NP or a CNS...

online programs are not good clinical degrees

 

[ChillyRN]

there isn't a difference per se...


and shame on any employer who (as chilly put it) won't hire ADNs (just because the applicant does not posses a BSN)...it's a very short sided way of thinking...

hire the person not the degree...

Well, just for the record, it isn't as though it is up to me, lol. It is HR policy system wide.

 

[chimichanga]

Well, just for the record, it isn't as though it is up to me, lol. It is HR policy system wide.

of course...pardon me if i sounded like i was piling on you...

it's just that I've heard that from HR people, nurse managers, etc...

It's an ignorant way that these (hiring) people think...

what's your opinion chilly?

 

[RDlv]

of course...pardon me if i sounded like i was piling on you...

it's just that I've heard that from HR people, nurse managers, etc...

It's an ignorant way that these (hiring) people think...

what's your opinion chilly?

I'll give you my opinion, as a BSN-prepared nurse. I work in a nursing environment where the top performers are truly awesome, smart and brutally competent individuals. I've known them long enough to have an idea of how the degrees break down. There is an even mix of ADN and BSN prepared nurses, and skill at expert nursing (even quasi-administrative tasks like being charge) appears to me to be largely independent of the degree achieved.

I'd love for that to not be the case. I'd love for my education at the baccalaureate level to have been so superior that no other degree can compete. However, that is not the case. Some extra hours in community health, a few more nursing theory papers, and 2 more credits of pathopharm do not a super-nurse make.

I *am* a really good nurse. What made me so? Being trained by my betters in the unit, and their degree didn't matter one whit, their knowledge and ability did.

The exact same crap is happening in the war the DNPs are waging against the masters-prepared NPs. Same hollow arguments, and irrelevant coursework to back them up. As a new-grad BSN, maybe I was a bit more prepared for a first job in community health vs. a new-grad ADN. Likewise, a new-grad DNP will be possibly better suited to an administrative job than I will be as a masters-prepared NP grad. But the ADN isn't at any objective disadvantage than the BSN grad as regards nursing positions, and the DNP won't be necessarily any better than be in a clinical setting (due to their schooling; if they are just plain smarter or better, well that's always possible).

 

[chimichanga]

...I *am* a really good nurse. What made me so? Being trained by my betters in the unit, and their degree didn't matter one whit, their knowledge and ability did.

A very salient point...Best post of the thread...

As an RN educator in both worlds (adn/bsn) I can give one predictor of success: Nursing extern time on the unit where that student will (later, post grad) work (to be done concurrently during one's nursing program)

It's that simple...

Externships (in AZ) went away with the crappy economy...Now some misguided HR people and RN managers want to only hire BSNs...

I still maintain that investing in an extern will save the department many $$$ in the long run (training, turnover, etc.)

Externships are an excellent extension of clinical time (which isn't enough as it is) and an opportunity for the hospital to pair its best nurses with externs to make a better (future) nurse...

A BSN degree does not a better nurse make...

I hear that some (RN and BSN) programs 'back east' are doing away with senior practicums (typically 96-144 hours of extra clinical time with one assigned preceptor in an area of interest to the student)

sigh...more ivory tower idiot nurses deciding what's 'best' for the rest...

 

[ChillyRN]

of course...pardon me if i sounded like i was piling on you...

it's just that I've heard that from HR people, nurse managers, etc...

It's an ignorant way that these (hiring) people think...

what's your opinion chilly?

Well I think it depends on if you are looking at it from a patient care perspective, or from that as "nursing as a profession" perspective. If the issue is patient care, I have never observed a measurable difference in the knowledge and/or skills of nurses that appears to correlate in any more than a modest way with their level of education.

I was an ADN nurse first, back in the day. I graduated from a community college in 1990. however, I had graduated from Law School in '88, and my original plan was to do some sort of malpractice law or something. So, while I was an ADN, I was an ADN with an atypical educational background.

I obtained a BSN some time later. Do I think the BSN made me a better nurse? Yes. It raised the bar for me so to speak. I was (am?) an intelligent, and educated person, but I never read research journals, never participated in my state BON or ANA activities. My BSN program taught me how to find and interpret the EBP guidelines, and inspired me to get more involved at various levels. That is not to say that a ADN prepared nurse could not do that, only that as a ADN nurse, I did not. My BSN education really opened my eyes about learning and growth opportunities. I had tunnel vision before that, and didn't know it. However, I was already a CCRN and CEN by that time and by all accounts, an outstanding nurse. I just think my BSN education made me a more confident and professional nurse. I really value the way it expanded my thinking and subsequently, my professional horizon. In short, it was more of a personal growth curve that came from additional intellecutual stimulation, than having really learned some valuable nugget that was previously kept from me as a mere ADN.

Mandating a BSN may or may not result in improved outcomes for patients, but I do feel like it would result in improved outcomes for the nurses. I don't have any data to back up that opinion, it is just that, my opinion. Simply not hiring ADN or diploma nurses may not be the most effective way to support continuing education, but at least in this microcosm, it is working.

My bff from nursing school days now has a PhD and teaches at an IVY league nsg school. Their hospital system now only hires MSN prepared nurses for the bedside. I am not aware that their patient outcomes are head and shoulders above the benchmark, but from a single visit, I CAN tell you that the culture of that workplace is completely different in almost every respect. I have never seen such inter-professional cooperation, respect and camaraderie anywhere in my 20+ career. Is it the degree that makes the difference? I doubt that, but I don't doubt that hiring the personality that values and pursues the MSN, even without promise of financial remuneration, is what makes the difference, and THAT is good for nursing.

So my opinion is that requiring a minimum of a college degree for entry into the profession would be good for the profession. I suspect it would be minimally significant in terms of population outcomes.

 

[ChillyRN]

P.S. I completely agree that post graduate internships would have a profound impact. If nursing education were completely revamped, and I were in charge I'd take a cue from medical education. I'd make nursing education 6 years: 4 years of college, and 2 years of (paid) residency as a new nurse, and something similar for new APNs. I'd have given my right arm for a NP residency, but there are so few and none of them was a possibility for me for various reasons. In my case, the only other option was to continue in a DNP program for the additional 1000 hours of clinical experience, not to mention the didactic pieces which so far are quite interesting and informative. One does their best.

 

[chimichanga]

just curious, how are they finding enough MSN prepared nurses for the bedside...this would not be a new problem, as schools have historically not payed (FT) MSNs enough to lecture, and in AZ, as an MSN you either teach, or become a CNS...

and the externships, in my experience, have always been a paid position while the student is in school (usually weekends)

post grad internships exist, and take many forms (new grad programs in some shape or form, and I believe some places call them 'residencies')

 

[ChillyRN]

just curious, how are they finding enough MSN prepared nurses for the bedside...this would not be a new problem, as schools have historically not payed (FT) MSNs enough to lecture, and in AZ, as an MSN you either teach, or become a CNS...

and the externships, in my experience, have always been a paid position while the student is in school (usually weekends)

post grad internships exist, and take many forms (new grad programs in some shape or form, and I believe some places call them 'residencies')

I gathered most of them came from the school associated with the hospital system.

I don't dislike externships, I just don't think they go far enough. (see below)

And yes, I am aware post grad internships exist. I was merely lamenting that they are not a standardized piece of nursing education. I think they should be.

 

[chimichanga]

You talk about the culture of (that) workplace...I don't doubt that it's the case at that place.

But as an on again off again nursing manager and administrator myself, I have worked in phenomenal places, and some not so...IMHO, the culture is much more of a reflection of what's 'tolerated' by management...it's a trickle down effect...

Cattiness and negativity are unfortunate, historical backbones of nursing and are propagated by enculturation at one's place of employment (i.e hospitals usually recruiting managers from within amongst its long time toxic employees)

 

[ChillyRN]

You talk about the culture of (that) workplace...I don't doubt that it's the case at that place.

But as an on again off again nursing manager and administrator myself, I have worked in phenomenal places, and some not so...IMHO, the culture is much more of a reflection of what's 'tolerated' by management...it's a trickle down effect...

Cattiness and negativity are unfortunate, historical backbones of nursing and are propagated by enculturation at one's place of employment (i.e hospitals usually recruiting managers from within amongst its long time toxic employees)

Oh, I agree. I sometimes still read at allnurses, and I canNOT believe the things that are reportedly happening among nurses. I have never experienced or observed any behavior like that. I've been lucky I guess because I don't know how one would consciously avoid that atmosphere.

My secrets to success in nursing do not lie in the BSN debate anyway, lol. In all fairness, my personality just isn't wired in such a way that would make me a victim. Colleagues have always respected me, and I think they like me, but I really have no idea. I get along well with everyone, but I don't get close to anyone. Work is just a job, and it is rarely (or never!) about me. I don't internalize or personalize it. I show up when I'm scheduled, neither listen to nor participate in gossip, do my job expertly without drama or fanfare, and go home.

Most of the nonsense people get upset about is, IMO, nonsense, lol. I don't take it seriously, I don't rehash it with coworkers ad nauseum, put the latest imagined slight in my facebook status or otherwise dwell on it.

Diploma, ADN, BSN, MSN or doctorate, I think if more people would calm down, STFU and chill out, all work places would be less noxious.

My .02

 

[chimichanga]

...Diploma, ADN, BSN, MSN or doctorate, I think if more people would calm down, STFU and chill out, all work places would be less noxious...

nailed it!

good post

 

[SailorNurse]

The only setting that an associate degree nurse does not embark upon is public health....

The military (nurse corps officers) only takes BSN's. 20 years ago, I was in the Navy, ADN's were brought in as warrant officers but were supposed to get their BSN's in a limited time. They phased out that program. In my states, to work as a school nurse you must have a BSN. The local hospitals have in the past 5 years or so, nurse managers must have BSNs and now some of the managers (not all) have MSN's. There is also talk of requiring ADN's to get BSN within 10 years of finishing the ADN. (BSN in 10). Having started as an LPN>ADN>BSN>MSN/FNP, I would say if you can get the BSN without going into a lot of debt and it will not take more then a couple of years you should do it.

 

[sarjasy]

Is it the degree that makes the difference? I doubt that, but I don't doubt that hiring the personality that values and pursues the MSN, even without promise of financial remuneration, is what makes the difference, and THAT is good for nursing. ...So my opinion is that requiring a minimum of a college degree for entry into the profession would be good for the profession. I suspect it would be minimally significant in terms of population outcomes.

The "hiring the personality" is an interesting take. As a current student, the mindset of those pursuing, say, an ADN vs. those pursuing an MSN is night and day. In clinicals and in the classroom, the difference is noticeable. Those planning graduate work are the far more motivated, educated and competent students. I'm far enough long in my program that the separation has occured among the students -- those planning graduate study are the better students.

Coming from a corporate background, there is, in general, a big difference between those that pursue, say, an MBA and those content with the B.S. It's not so much the skills aquired at the MBA level (not many, IMO), it's the attitude, driveness, dedication, intellect, and level of professionalism.

 

[adayatatime]

Keep it simple. If an ADN is offered online locally, then keep your day job and knock out your nursing degree. Get hired. Have your hospital pay for your RN-BSN. Get paid more after a couple years due to experience, not the BSN. Have your hospital pay for the MSN. Get paid more and enjoy prescriptive authority. Do some locum. Get paid more. Enjoy life. Get paid more. Rinse wash and repeat. Get paid more.

 

[justinwillims]

Both degrees offer the same core curriculum, prepare you to pass the required NCLEX-RN exam, and give you the training, theoretical foundation, and in many cases, practical experience required to successfully fulfill the role of a registered nurse. While the salaries for nurses with either degree don’t vary by a significant margin in entry level positions, the benefit of a bachelor degree is that it increases your chances for future growth by qualifying you for management positions and higher, specialized education within healthcare. However, the benefits of getting an Associate degree in Nursing are that the duration tends to be shorter, the programs tend to be less expensive, and you can start working, earning wages, and gaining practical experience much sooner than you would if you decided to pursue a bachelor’s degree

 

[FireCloud9]

Along the same line of questioning as the original post....

What are the practical differences between a BSN and MSN (ELMSN) / NP?

Would the MSN have an edge for nurse management positions? Other potential management positions in a healthcare environment?

 

[ChillyRN]

The "hiring the personality" is an interesting take. As a current student, the mindset of those pursuing, say, an ADN vs. those pursuing an MSN is night and day. In clinicals and in the classroom, the difference is noticeable. Those planning graduate work are the far more motivated, educated and competent students. I'm far enough long in my program that the separation has occured among the students -- those planning graduate study are the better students.

Coming from a corporate background, there is, in general, a big difference between those that pursue, say, an MBA and those content with the B.S. It's not so much the skills aquired at the MBA level (not many, IMO), it's the attitude, driveness, dedication, intellect, and level of professionalism.

I suspect you can see that happen everywhere. My son's school has just diversified itself into 3 separate "Academies" allegedly to target the students' interests (college prep, vo-tech bound, and special ed) What is really is is Huxley's Brave New Word in action and a new way to segregate the alphas, betas and deltas, and I'm kind of shocked that people are going for it. The bottom line is, we all put ourselves into hierarchies constantly. It seems to be an inextricable force of the human condition.

Firecloud9, you asked "What are the practical differences between a BSN and MSN (ELMSN) / NP?"

"Would the MSN have an edge for nurse management positions? Other potential management positions in a healthcare environment?"

I apologize, I don't understand the first question.

To the second, I would say yes, a nurse with a MSN would have a strong advantage in seeking management positions. In fact, in most institutions a MSN would be the expectation in middle and certainly upper level management. I suspect in most instances, all other things being equal a BSN prepared nurse would only find a management position in a very small system. Hope that answers your query.

 

[FireCloud9]

Firecloud9, you asked "What are the practical differences between a BSN and MSN (ELMSN) / NP?"

"Would the MSN have an edge for nurse management positions? Other potential management positions in a healthcare environment?"

I apologize, I don't understand the first question.

To the second, I would say yes, a nurse with a MSN would have a strong advantage in seeking management positions. In fact, in most institutions a MSN would be the expectation in middle and certainly upper level management. I suspect in most instances, all other things being equal a BSN prepared nurse would only find a management position in a very small system. Hope that answers your query.

Let me elaborate on the first question. In terms of day to day responsibilities are there significant differences between an RN with a BSN vs. an RN with an MSN?

In terms of management positions in a healthcare environment, are there significant differences between an MSN, someone that has an NP, and a PA.

I'm asking about the management aspects of healthcare environments, not the clinical differences between NP and PA. I suspect that some MSNs are not NP, and so I ask about their management potential as well (all else being equal).

 

[The right Path]

Let me elaborate on the first question. In terms of day to day responsibilities are there significant differences between an RN with a BSN vs. an RN with an MSN?

In terms of management positions in a healthcare environment, are there significant differences between an MSN, someone that has an NP, and a PA.

I'm asking about the management aspects of healthcare environments, not the clinical differences between NP and PA. I suspect that some MSNs are not NP, and so I ask about their management potential as well (all else being equal).

The responsibilities for a particular position are the same regardless of degree. For instance, my position is that of staff RN (bedside nurse). Most of us have a BSN, there are a few ASNs, and a handful of MSNs. The work and level of expectations in this position are the same regardless of degree. However, the hospital would prefer everyone to at the least have a BSN and certainly encourages going from ASN to BSN as well as encourages further education (eg MSN). In fact, one of the middle managers only in the last couple of years went from ASN to BSN. Hell, for all I know it may have been required in order to maintain that position. And at this point, they might not hire someone new into that type of position without a MSN. That seems to be the trend these days.

There are certainly master's in nursing degrees that are not NP or CRNA or PA. For awhile I toyed with the idea of getting my master's degree as a clinical nurse specialist in critical care/trauma through UCSF. There are also case-management master's degree programs, etc.

The type of position in nursing (i.e. management) may very well require a certain degree (MSN, MBA, whatever), but having that degree doesn't change the position itself. I hope that helps.

 

[Narnian]

I work in critical care and what I have noticed one difference is the number of awesome ASN's that want to further their career, but are held back by the lack of the BSN. They are forced to either finish their BSN while they work and juggle family, or not further their careers. I have one nurse that is finishing her BSN so she can get into NP school. Her Dad is a PA and was previously a nurse. The reason he chose PA over NP was he was also an associate nurse and did not want to take on the extra school and debt from BSN-> NP. I suggest if you can apply to both, go for the BSN.

 

[zenman]

online programs are fine for an MSN who wants to lecture and teach...NOT for an NP or a CNS...

online programs are not good clinical degrees

Fortunately for me, I looked at the research on distance education and then went to a top university that offered distance education for my post-master's NP certificate. Funny how many of our resources were offered online at medical schools. For example, I was able to learn how to do physical exams by watching many physicians and others do it versus having one person do them in person. Traditional (old-fashion) are not always best nor most efficient ways to learn. All things change, including our treatments and drugs, but ways to learn just drag behind.

 

[FireCloud9]

I work in critical care and what I have noticed one difference is the number of awesome ASN's that want to further their career, but are held back by the lack of the BSN. They are forced to either finish their BSN while they work and juggle family, or not further their careers. I have one nurse that is finishing her BSN so she can get into NP school. Her Dad is a PA and was previously a nurse. The reason he chose PA over NP was he was also an associate nurse and did not want to take on the extra school and debt from BSN-> NP. I suggest if you can apply to both, go for the BSN.

Narnian, can you clarify that point? Did you mean that going from ASN to BSN and then NP would require a greater financial investment than ASN to PA? If so, then I understand.

There are certainly master's in nursing degrees that are not NP or CRNA or PA. For awhile I toyed with the idea of getting my master's degree as a clinical nurse specialist in critical care/trauma through UCSF. There are also case-management master's degree programs, etc.

The type of position in nursing (i.e. management) may very well require a certain degree (MSN, MBA, whatever), but having that degree doesn't change the position itself. I hope that helps.

Right or wrong I view the case management path to be the degree with the least value.

As I understand it, any nurse can get into case management, there is no barrier to entry unlike NP or PA where one has to hold specific credentials for those positions.

Samuel Merritt has a 2.5yr program in case management, but if I'm going to put in the time and money, it'll be either the ABSN, FNP, or PA.

While my preference would be the PA route, I don't have clinical hours, and certainly not the thousands required in the programs around here. The FNP doesn't have such requirements and the resulting responsibilities and compensation is comparable.

With an ABSN, FNP or PA, I'm fairly certain that I could get into case management in the future if I chose to do that down the road. The reverse would not be the case for the NP or PA, and while it may be the case for RN work, it would certainly not be worth the extra year (2.5yrs for MSN in CM vs. 14mo for ABSN).

From some of the responses it sounds like an MSN is not necessarily advantaged for management positions in a healthcare environment. Another reason for considering the faster ABSN path. However, with the FNP one can open up shop and not have to rely on getting hired.

 

[atcpt1]

Thought I would add my 2 cents....even though it echo's what others have said.

Disclosure: I am not a nurse, but I spend a number of years as a college advisor for nurses (both ASN/BSN)

In my opinion, there is no difference b/t ASN and BSN clinically. The quality of the nursing student was far more individual than degree based. Each was competitive for the same jobs. The core nursing curriculum was the same for both. To be honest, the ASN was a much better deal. I always encouraged the students to graduate with the ASN and then do the BSN part-time while they work full-time (why lose two years of meaningful income). The BSN simply took more electives to earn the BSN. With that said, they may have taken more science/humanities courses ect (for what that is worth).

As for comparing the PA to the NP....that is a stretch. I would look more at the content of each b/c the NP has significantly less education when compared to the PA (you can earn a DNP in less than 2000 hours total education (didactic/clinical combined) as compared to the PA which is always more than 4000 hours of (didactic/clinical combined). I'm no longer involved in advising, but we always recommended students (nursing/allied health) to pursue PA for the best education (assuming they could make the sacrifice of full-time schooling....meaning they can't work). PA is competency education. NP has decided that they prefer degree based education for political reasons. Don't be fooled by the name of the degree b/t the two.....

Just my opinion and experience.

ASN is a hell of a deal if you ask me.
Education is full of fraud....don't be fooled by degrees. And don't underestimate what you learn on the job.....I'll take an ASN with two years of experience over a newly minted BSN any day!

 

[Narnian]

Narnian, can you clarify that point? Did you mean that going from ASN to BSN and then NP would require a greater financial investment than ASN to PA? If so, then I understand.

Actually it was the financial burden, and the classes for the BSN being something he did not really think he needed for NP school. He never wanted to be in nursing management or research or public health so he saw no need for them. He was an airforce Nurse, a male, and a combat Vet. I am not sure what you learn in BSN in two years clinically or didactically that prepares you for NP school, but He said even if he had the money he would not want to do that. Granted he was old school and I am not sure what programs existed back when he was a nurse in the 90's.

 

[FireCloud9]

In my opinion, there is no difference b/t ASN and BSN clinically.

As for comparing the PA to the NP....that is a stretch.

ASN is a hell of a deal if you ask me.
Education is full of fraud....don't be fooled by degrees. And don't underestimate what you learn on the job.....I'll take an ASN with two years of experience over a newly minted BSN any day![/QUOTE]

I would think it's much less common for an ASN to be a nurse manager or have management responsibilities in an environment where there are BSNs and MSNs. I'm sure there are some exceptions.

Comparing the PA to NP - Don't both have similar scope of practice? Similar salaries?

ASN seems to be a dead end. If one simply wants to be an RN and nothing else, then I suppose it would be a deal, but I suspect that if one wants to advance into other positions with greater responsibilities it would be limiting.

Would you take an ASN with 2yrs xp over a newly minted MSN? DNP?

 

[atcpt1]

In my opinion, there is no difference b/t ASN and BSN clinically.

As for comparing the PA to the NP....that is a stretch.

ASN is a hell of a deal if you ask me.
Education is full of fraud....don't be fooled by degrees. And don't underestimate what you learn on the job.....I'll take an ASN with two years of experience over a newly minted BSN any day!

I would think it's much less common for an ASN to be a nurse manager or have management responsibilities in an environment where there are BSNs and MSNs. I'm sure there are some exceptions.

Comparing the PA to NP - Don't both have similar scope of practice? Similar salaries?

ASN seems to be a dead end. If one simply wants to be an RN and nothing else, then I suppose it would be a deal, but I suspect that if one wants to advance into other positions with greater responsibilities it would be limiting.

Would you take an ASN with 2yrs xp over a newly minted MSN? DNP?

FireCloud9,

I suppose I was thinking more pragmatically or clinical as opposed to management. I get your point that a nurse with a BSN has more "upward mobility" (at least in management/education ect..). I agree. I wouldn't think that nurse management is the goal of most aspiring RN's (I hope). We already have too many nurses in management and it isn't as prestigious (at least by my standards). Again, I would argue that how good an RN is has nothing to do with degree....rather it's the individual and experience. I believe degree based education has a lot to be desired.

And yes. If I were hiring an RN....I would always without exception hire based on the individual and experience. If I were counseling a student who was interested in management and getting a master's degree, I were steer them towards the MBA (which would open many more doors). The MSN just too weak in my opinion. Regarding the DNP, that is a different type of nurse who would likely be competing for midlevel jobs vs. an RN job (although I know at least one who works in an RN position).

Regarding the PA vs. "D"NP, you highlight some similarities, but fail to recognize the differences in your post. I would argue that PA's overall work in more specialties/sub-specialties because of their training and latitude clinically. Globally, they have qualified for more hospital privileges (regarding different procedures and scope). Their educational model is VERY, VERY, VERY different and if a student is interested in a broad based knowledge base more than just salary and having a "similar" scope, I think PA education does a significantly better job. An NP certifies in a specific and limited scope of medicine (such as ANP, PNP, FMP, ect). PA's are educated like physicians in all systems of the body both clinically and didactically. This is very different.

 

[FireCloud9]

FireCloud9,

I suppose I was thinking more pragmatically or clinical as opposed to management. I get your point that a nurse with a BSN has more "upward mobility" (at least in management/education ect..). I agree. I wouldn't think that nurse management is the goal of most aspiring RN's (I hope). We already have too many nurses in management and it isn't as prestigious (at least by my standards). Again, I would argue that how good an RN is has nothing to do with degree....rather it's the individual and experience. I believe degree based education has a lot to be desired.

And yes. If I were hiring an RN....I would always without exception hire based on the individual and experience. If I were counseling a student who was interested in management and getting a master’s degree, I were steer them towards the MBA (which would open many more doors). The MSN just too weak in my opinion. Regarding the DNP, that is a different type of nurse who would likely be competing for midlevel jobs vs. an RN job (although I know at least one who works in an RN position).

Regarding the PA vs. "D"NP, you highlight some similarities, but fail to recognize the differences in your post. I would argue that PA's overall work in more specialties/sub-specialties because of their training and latitude clinically. Globally, they have qualified for more hospital privileges (regarding different procedures and scope). Their educational model is VERY, VERY, VERY different and if a student is interested in a broad based knowledge base more than just salary and having a “similar” scope, I think PA education does a significantly better job. An NP certifies in a specific and limited scope of medicine (such as ANP, PNP, FMP, ect). PA's are educated like physicians in all systems of the body both clinically and didactically. This is very different.

atcpt1,

Thanks for your response. Here's one for you. Where would you steer someone that already has an MBA and is looking at healthcare management, but doesn't have the healthcare background? ELMNS for the MSN/RN/NP, ABSN/RN, PA?

In healthcare environments, which clinician combinations do you see in management roles?

MBA+PA
MBA+RN
MBA+MSN
etc...

 

[pamac]

i work around plenty of healthcare managers. your mba would suit you best if you were to couple it with some kind of healthcare administration degree rather that taking the rube goldberg route through PA or nursing. most of the managers ive seen that hail from clinical backgrounds seem to do so after years of work on the "line". they dont just transition from a completely different field. for instance, my lab manager has only a lab science degree, and may benefit from something like an MBA, or even a bachelors in healthcare admin. but ultimately, its their experience in lab operations that is key to thier success. an MBA that got a lab science degree and has just a few years experience would be extremely hard pressed to jump to the front of the line vs someone with experience in that field. im not saying that it doesnt happen somewhere in this big country, but its far from something you can remotely count on. maybe there is a lab somewhere that would be hard pressed to fill a management spot, but that would be an outlier for sure. if you read the nursing forums at all nurses, sometimes you come across a post about a fresh graduate getting on as a charge nurse, but thats might not be the kind of management position you are thinking of... that would be a nightmare for someone who wasnt apt and able as a nurse. also, such a postition would require very little use of any MBA skills, as its more geared towards nursing functions rather than being a manager in the sense that you are familiar.... meaning they would want you to be a good nurse first, and manager second. you would still be required to be able to get your hands dirty.

the few PAs ive seen in management positions basically are in that place because it fills some kind of immediate need... usually because someone has to be in charge and it has fallen to them to enter the manager role. for the most part, PAs seem to generally be expected to be worker bee's in order to be most effective, as they are physician extenders... thier fates are meant to be tied to phsyicians, and phsicians often either take the management reigns, or hire office managers to handle the business end. PA's are trained to be PA's and thats how they generate revenue. it would be underutilization to operate otherwise. most of the managers that ive seen that are midlevels perform the management duties in addition to thier duties as clinicians... its just more responsibility stacked on thier clinical duties. its rare that someone give them the option of foregoing thier role as a PA to go and act in management. even if this were the case, often PA's would be hesitant to walk away from thier clinical role for something like that, as the clinical role is really thier bread and butter.

MSN is similar to the PA aspect, at least when you are talking about NPs. generally, an MSN nurse in management wouldnt be a new grad, as they would have to have significant experience to be valuable. same thing for hospital execs... they know the lay of the land because they have trod the ground, they didnt just get a nursing degree and and MBA and say "hey i know stuff, hire me". a chief nursing officer is one of the hospital executives, but those folks paid their dues, and worked thier way up. just obtaining the MSN RN or the PA status doesnt automatically give you any "street cred", in fact, it would probably lock you in to having to spend some serious time in those positions, as thier specialty isnt in becoming managers, its in treating PEOPLE. that will be what is required of you first. if you suck at that, there will be no advancing to the front office. nobody gets excited when a new grad shows up and has ambition beyond mastering patient care... they will just hate you and scuttle your attempts to advance. it takes a long time to become really proficient as a new grad as well, and you have to have that going for you to move up.

the ASN is a good deal, and its not dead end if you have the right plan. getting a BSN through a bridge program is fairly easy, and can take place quickly. at my ASN program, we have bridge programs very eager to get us onboard with them to further our educations. there is no competition for spots (at least at these programs), provided you have that initial ASN. there are even ASN-NP bridge programs out there as well.

 

[FireCloud9]

Thanks pamac, that's good advice.

I did some looking into the MHA at UC Berkeley. The difference between the MBA that I already have an the MHA is 4 classes (12 credits).

That's probably one reason that every job posting that I come across says, "MBA or MHA" - they're viewed as largely interchangeable.

A few years back I inquired into the UCB program, I was informed by their advisor that it is only open to their MBA students. That is, they would expect me to repeat all the classes that I've already taken. That to me, is academia gone wild. I'd rather take a different route and learn something new. I don't know if they even that have program anymore as there was almost 100% overlap with the MBA. As it is, many MBAs refer to MPH, MHA, etc. as "MBA-Lite".

I suspect that someone that has gone the clinician route into management has more credibility than someone who got there with an MHA never having been a clinician.

I see very few candidates online that have a clinician certification coupled with an MBA and PMP. So while it is true that I would lack deep expertise in healthcare, I would venture to guess that would also be the case with MHAs that don't have the clinical background. And those, as you pointed out, would be the ones gunning for healthcare management positions - clinicians seem to want to stay clinicians, not healthcare managers.

I would agree with you that positions like a nursing manager would have to be a proficient nurse, or so one would expect, not just someone that comes in with an NP+MBA+PMP. Though I suspect that there are many other healthcare management positions where the position is more management than delivery of clinician services.

UCB also has an MBA/MPH program (1 additional semester difference) and state:

"If you have a strong healthcare background, for example, many years of healthcare management experience, or a clinical background (for instance, several physicians have taken this route), or are more committed to business than healthcare per se, the coursework within the MBA may be the more appropriate choice."

ASN-NP bridge? Aren't most NPs MSNs? Did you mean a BSN-NP bridge or are you suggesting that one can bypass the BSN enroute to an MSN?

 

[pamac]

you dont bypass the bsn, you either obtain it through the program on the way to the msn, or you fulfill the requirements for it on the way to the msn, but arent actually awarded the bsn (as there isnt a reason due to you obtaining the msn). its called a bridge program.

 

[twyllamay]

Your options for anything. If you get a BSN degree, and later you decide you want to pursue a graduate degree, whether in nursing or business administration, or you want to go to medical school, law school, vet school, or get a PhD in something like psychology or education, you'll be able to do so without having to go back and earn your BSN or BS/BA.

An associate's degree is not a real degree in the academic world, whereas a bachelor's degree is. Spend the extra time and money and get a BSN degree. You won't regret it.

To whom ever posted the above quote in regards to an associates degree not being a real degree in any way should be ashamed to post such....To go above and beyond your high school diploma is a step beyond what some may refer to as a dream....any education beyond HS is real!!! It is very easy to say spend the extra time and money when those such things may not have to be a concern to some people.... A PROUD DIPLOMA OF NSG RN!

 

[SailorNurse]

The only setting that an associate degree nurse does not embark upon is public health....

PS - I am a nursing recruiter so I am charged with knowing the differences

Not quite, The military requires a BSN at least the Navy does, believe Air Force also and for Active Duty Army (someone correct if I am wrong but Army reserves does take ADNs but as enlisted, not officers).

Locally, the public schools only take BSNs.
SailorNurse
LPN>ADN>BSN>MSN/FNP

 

[gingah]

<
Maybe because a four year degree is considered standard among other professions. Nursing is the only "profession" that argues for less education in spite of having to make life or death decisions. Can you even comprehend why "one" profession would argue for that. Is so totally unbelievable that it's beyond belief. As I've said before "nursing is a stupid profession." Try to use logic to argue that one, would you? Go argue for the teacher who is teaching your kids to knock down their education a little bit...start there, would you? And they are only responsible for your kid's mind!



And what does this managerial course teach you that you can apply directly at the bedside and therefore = better patient care? Let me "educate" you a little and then you see what else you can come up with. Knowlwdge of the hospital chain of comand, a little about healthcare finance so you don't have to say, "I don't know" when a patient has a question that might impact their fixed income, how to manage your time so you can provide better patient care, how to lead so you can provide care of many patients...ok, now your turn...

Can you please repeat why you believe that nursing is a stupid profession? Have you personally tried taking nursing school courses? Have you gone through clinicals? Have you in the least tried pre-nursing? Have you witnessed nursing students eating their lunch in 10 minutes or putting it away for later because they have to rush to their next rotations or courses? Tell me again about how nurses don't have good time management?

And news flash, buddy, unless you are in an accelerated nursing program nursing is a 3-year deal for BSN. And btw, nurses don't make life or death decisions, doctors do. And I've heard of various cases where lawsuits come into place because of a doctor's negligence in which the nurses had told him something went wrong and he chose to ignore them. So despite 2-3 years of official nursing school, nurses know what they are doing if they need to make a life-death decision. What is truly unbelievable beyond belief is how you choose to be so arrogant as to believe that your arguments are totally valid while you try to bring down everyone else's argument. You are egocentric and pathetic, to be honest. If that's not the case then by all means prove me wrong because I've been reading all your responses and you come off as arrogant, selfish, pathetic, and egocentric.
Also, do you have children yourself? Did you ever take them to a pre-school or head-start program? How about daycare? None of those "teachers" have actual schooling; you don't need a degree to teach children basic schooling before kindergarten. However, those teachers are the root of a child's education and many of them do a pretty good job at preparing and teaching children their basic skills.

As for questions that may impact a patient's income, a nurse is not there to answer those questions; that is what other people who DON'T wear scrubs in the hospital work-force are there for. Think again, hun. As for time management, that is something that is focused on since before you even get to high school, it is also worked on in college, there are preparatory classes that many pre-nursing programs force their students into. ADN have the same capabilities as BSN. The only difference is BSN pay a lot more for their schooling and get more general education rather than focusing solely on their career. BSN is more intellect and books aside from the hands on training. Please, stop trying to make everyone else's arguments invalid when your own arguments are extremely weak and ignorant, "LOL"- as you would reply.

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

psst... gingah... zenman is a nurse practitioner with decades of experience in nursing.

 

[Will352nd]

Can you please repeat why you believe that nursing is a stupid profession? Have you personally tried taking nursing school courses? Have you gone through clinicals? Have you in the least tried pre-nursing? Have you witnessed nursing students eating their lunch in 10 minutes or putting it away for later because they have to rush to their next rotations or courses? Tell me again about how nurses don't have good time management?

And news flash, buddy, unless you are in an accelerated nursing program nursing is a 3-year deal for BSN. And btw, nurses don't make life or death decisions, doctors do. And I've heard of various cases where lawsuits come into place because of a doctor's negligence in which the nurses had told him something went wrong and he chose to ignore them. So despite 2-3 years of official nursing school, nurses know what they are doing if they need to make a life-death decision. What is truly unbelievable beyond belief is how you choose to be so arrogant as to believe that your arguments are totally valid while you try to bring down everyone else's argument. You are egocentric and pathetic, to be honest. If that's not the case then by all means prove me wrong because I've been reading all your responses and you come off as arrogant, selfish, pathetic, and egocentric.
Also, do you have children yourself? Did you ever take them to a pre-school or head-start program? How about daycare? None of those "teachers" have actual schooling; you don't need a degree to teach children basic schooling before kindergarten. However, those teachers are the root of a child's education and many of them do a pretty good job at preparing and teaching children their basic skills.

As for questions that may impact a patient's income, a nurse is not there to answer those questions; that is what other people who DON'T wear scrubs in the hospital work-force are there for. Think again, hun. As for time management, that is something that is focused on since before you even get to high school, it is also worked on in college, there are preparatory classes that many pre-nursing programs force their students into. ADN have the same capabilities as BSN. The only difference is BSN pay a lot more for their schooling and get more general education rather than focusing solely on their career. BSN is more intellect and books aside from the hands on training. Please, stop trying to make everyone else's arguments invalid when your own arguments are extremely weak and ignorant, "LOL"- as you would reply.

I think zenman is an NP.

 

[Will352nd]

psst... gingah... zenman is a nurse practitioner with decades of experience in nursing.

Damn, in for the win. +1

 

[gingah]

psst... gingah... zenman is a nurse practitioner with decades of experience in nursing.

okay but when he replies he sounds like a jerk who hasn't been through the schooling other nurses have gone through. He shouldn't be replying that way since clearly he knows the struggle nursing students face.

 

[gingah]

are all of you seriously standing up for him after the way he tried putting his opinion over everyone else's almost 7 years ago?

 

[dudestheman90]

I know ADN is a 3-YR program full-time. 1 year of pre-reqs, and 2 years of the actual nursing program. However I have heard many ADN programs have 1-3 year waiting lists, so it could actually take you much longer to finish the nursing program, also if you go part-time, it could take you an additional year on top of that. An I believe RN-BSN is appx. 2 more years. A BSN is required to work in hospitals for the most part and will become the norm. BSN programs are naturally 4 years, but I have some friends that are finding it hard to finish everything in 4 years and it may take them 5 or 6 years to be completely done. It's not the norm in today's standards to be able to finish a degree in 4 years, esp. if it's something as rigorous as nursing. So overall, your looking at 4-7 years of schooling, 4 best case, 7 worst case scenario. A DNP, which seems to becoming the norm is 3 years full-time, 5-6 years part-time. So a nursing education is very rigorous, hard and long. But the rewards at the end are amazing. In essence you can be in school as long as a doctor.