Making money as M1

[Shredder]

Feeling bored with M1; school's relatively simple and grades are mediocre but I don't care about that much. Was anybody making money as an M1 or have suggestions on how to do it? I'm planning on doing MBA but that starts summer of 2nd yr, so far away. I've entertained thoughts of quitting med but there are logistical probs so I'll probably stay. Meaning like I don't know what I would be doing otherwise--BA in Econ+biz minor from a state school won't get me a smashing starting job offer and I don't yet have enough entrepreneurial confidence or prowess, let alone capital/backing/cnnxns, to go it alone.

I posted about my frustration in allo but I should've just put it here in the first place. I've come to realize I'm only interested in ECs to the extent that they will help me make money either now or later. This mentality is also starting to pervade my social life and who I decide to mingle with, it's kinda bad. I do read quite a bit but I'm starting to feel like I can only learn so much with that hands off approach. For example I'd love to master finance but without actually doing it it's tough to learn--like playing poker without stakes. I feel uncomfy using fam money or loan money unless I felt like I rly knew what I'm doing. I hope you guys here can understand better than allo. I'm not in fact a greedy bastard, I just believe that moneymaking is a calling. I see it as a measure of creating value in society and I think everyone should try to be a mass moneymaker. I'm open to legal vice moneymaking as well though, I must admit. Hey, why deny ppl things they love even if it ruins them. I'm particularly interested in gambling/gaming but there's quite a bit of legality and licensing involved in that I think

Sry don't mean to bi7ch and moan, just feeling like I'm in a predicament and I dunno who to turn to--peers resent it and admins are out of the question. I've pondered seeking other profs, like biz ones maybe. Any younguns out there happen to be creating any value? In short you could say I'm obsessed with money and feeling antsy but I hope you will see it's not evil as society has ppl believe. Ideally I would like to have something going and drop out of school like many tycoons do; however I am not currently on that path and I know it. I feel bad bc I'm a bad (in a way) influence on peers and even other SDNers.

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[TheMightyAngus]

Feeling bored with M1; school's relatively simple and grades are mediocre but I don't care about that much. Was anybody making money as an M1 or have suggestions on how to do it? I'm planning on doing MBA but that starts summer of 2nd yr, so far away. I've entertained thoughts of quitting med but there are logistical probs so I'll probably stay. Meaning like I don't know what I would be doing otherwise--BA in Econ+biz minor from a state school won't get me a smashing starting job offer and I don't yet have enough entrepreneurial confidence or prowess, let alone capital/backing/cnnxns, to go it alone.

I posted about my frustration in allo but I should've just put it here in the first place. I've come to realize I'm only interested in ECs to the extent that they will help me make money either now or later. This mentality is also starting to pervade my social life and who I decide to mingle with, it's kinda bad. I do read quite a bit but I'm starting to feel like I can only learn so much with that hands off approach. For example I'd love to master finance but without actually doing it it's tough to learn--like playing poker without stakes. I feel uncomfy using fam money or loan money unless I felt like I rly knew what I'm doing. I hope you guys here can understand better than allo. I'm not in fact a greedy bastard, I just believe that moneymaking is a calling. I see it as a measure of creating value in society and I think everyone should try to be a mass moneymaker. I'm open to legal vice moneymaking as well though, I must admit. Hey, why deny ppl things they love even if it ruins them

Sry don't mean to bi7ch and moan, just feeling like I'm in a predicament and I dunno who to turn to--peers resent it and admins are out of the question. I've pondered seeking other profs, like biz ones maybe. Any younguns out there happen to be creating any value? In short you could say I'm obsessed with money and feeling antsy but I hope you will see it's not evil as society has ppl believe. Ideally I would like to have something going and drop out of school like many tycoons do; however I am not currently on that path and I know it. I feel bad bc I'm a bad (in a way) influence on peers and even other SDNers.

I share your sentiment with med school. I've occupied my time by gaining some experience in options trading. It's a low risk/high reward way to learn how to gauge the market.

ps some of those allo response you got were downright laughable

 

[Shredder]

Options, swaps, futures, forwards, hedging--all things that must be mastered to be a financial wizard. Are you dabbling in the options market any? I'd like practice first--was wondering if there's software or video games or something out there to help with that. Or websites of course, interactive-like ones. Reading and other passive learning methods are giving me diminishing returns, I feel like I'm learning to play tennis from books. Helpful to be sure but there are limits.

Can't blame the allos, as much as I wanted to grow impatient at times; it's just a diff mentality entirely. Helicopter lessons err..well intentioned I'm sure but not quite what I was seeking. General response was just to study harder, I should've expected as much. Angus I'm glad you and some others are on these forums or I dunno what I would've done in the last yr or more and clearly even to this day

Btw I've taken to devious flirting with chicks who study the things I want to learn. I feel kinda bad about this but it's reached this point! Fatty or not so cute I don't care!

 

[bkpa2med]

Shredder,
I'm going to be M1 come August, but I can relate to what you're saying. I feel the same way. But, I tend to be obsessed with real estate and what not. I just bought a home and am considering buying up similar ones to keep as rentals for the future.

Options, swaps, futures, hedging and what not is alot of work. Consider real estate, and with a great credit score you can work wonders, believe me.

 

[bkpa2med]

double post.

 

[Shredder]

Shredder,
I'm going to be M1 come August, but I can relate to what you're saying. I feel the same way. But, I tend to be obsessed with real estate and what not. I just bought a home and am considering buying up similar ones to keep as rentals for the future.

Options, swaps, futures, hedging and what not is alot of work. Consider real estate, and with a great credit score you can work wonders, believe me.

Real estate, it would be nice for passive income but seems to require much credit or capital. At 22 yrs old I dunno if it can happen. I guess I'm basically looking for glorified lemonade stand ideas right now. Real estate's safe but how big can you hit it in that area? Trump's done nicely but he had a solid family foundation. Are you non trad I'm guessing? Where'd you come up with funds? Options and all do seem like a lot of work but so fascinating too and with big payoffs if you can be a wizard, Soros like. If I could go back I would have taken that path long back, but it's easy to say that in hindsight. But who knows what I will be saying in hindsight years from now

 

[mshheaddoc]

Just to note, some of those "EC's" provide you with a chance to network to use those contacts in the future for business dealings. Don't discount them ... It's not what you know, its who you know. You should know that trump!

 

[bkpa2med]

double post

 

[bkpa2med]

Real estate, it would be nice for passive income but seems to require much credit or capital. At 22 yrs old I dunno if it can happen. I guess I'm basically looking for glorified lemonade stand ideas right now. Real estate's safe but how big can you hit it in that area? Trump's done nicely but he had a solid family foundation. Are you non trad I'm guessing? Where'd you come up with funds? Options and all do seem like a lot of work but so fascinating too and with big payoffs if you can be a wizard, Soros like. If I could go back I would have taken that path long back, but it's easy to say that in hindsight. But who knows what I will be saying in hindsight years from now

No, I'm not a non-trad. The home that I recently bought, I got seller's concession on it, so I didn't have to pay closing costs and I put down $8k. I could of gotten it with 100% financing but since I'm going to be living in it I decided to put something down. The midwest is truly gold in terms of real estate. I hope I can flip something if a good deal comes up. If I were to rent this home out today I would have positive cash flow of $150/month with PITI paid for.

 

[Shredder]

Cash flow...I've been thinking and realized that's really what I am desiring right now. 8k huh, that's a fair amount saved up--past jobs? When did it occur to you to get involved in that stuff/rl estate? Read any influential books? Midwest has affordability yeah and ppl are heading west and South in the country.

I prolly could've repackaged and summarized this thread by asking if anyone has ideas or experience for simple startups, especially by students with some academic obligations and limited financing options. Profitability key of course but degree of profitability not important, experience more crucial. Other than loans I don't rly have any saved up aside from anything my parents have put aside in my name and which I don't consider truly mine. I suppose I could dig into whatever resources if I felt strongly about some new venture.

Connections huh...yeah I agree and ponder this but I can't figure out who's worth knowing and not. I tend to write ppl off faster than give them the benefit of the doubt. It seems like for every worthwhile contact there will be 50 useless ones who are nothing but drains, so I just play the odds. Of course that depends on the setting but I don't feel like I'm in a setting where odds are good. Elitist, arrogant, mean, outspoken--ppl call me lots of things but I bear it. I do the same on SDN when I piss ppl off, for most of em I just don't care. But you guys in MD/MBA and some select few other ppl around here I value. Sigh well thx guys for the advice, I've been feeling anguish lately. Esp studying nit picky parts of the brain/spine/nerves, it rly seems like minutiae in the big picture except for future neurosurg and neurologists

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Options, swaps, futures, forwards, hedging--all things that must be mastered to be a financial wizard. Are you dabbling in the options market any? I'd like practice first--was wondering if there's software or video games or something out there to help with that. Or websites of course, interactive-like ones. Reading and other passive learning methods are giving me diminishing returns, I feel like I'm learning to play tennis from books. Helpful to be sure but there are limits.

Can't blame the allos, as much as I wanted to grow impatient at times; it's just a diff mentality entirely. Helicopter lessons err..well intentioned I'm sure but not quite what I was seeking. General response was just to study harder, I should've expected as much. Angus I'm glad you and some others are on these forums or I dunno what I would've done in the last yr or more and clearly even to this day

Btw I've taken to devious flirting with chicks who study the things I want to learn. I feel kinda bad about this but it's reached this point! Fatty or not so cute I don't care!

I started by buying some call options on heavy metal stocks ie copper because the sector was heating up. It does take a lot of effort and reading--wsj, ibd, bloomberg, yahoo, etc.-- on a daily basis. But med school isn't too rough and I have the time.

I dont think you need software to practice. The calculations are pretty basic, you could probably find them on investopedia. If you have any account with a broker, you could look at the option chains online and figure out how you would stand. They might even post them somewhere online.

IMO, learning how the markets work is the best use of time because everyone needs to invest at some point. Especially now considering salaries will be declining.

 

[pballa24]

hehe..hey Shredder u could always pull what me and one of my boys pulled in college, granted our demographic now in med school is quite different. we bought bulk/wholesale lacoste polos from ebay and sold them on campus and at two nearby colleges. made decent out of it (enough to have fun with), but you've def. gotta make sure uve got the market for it. thought about doin it in med school, but everybody and their moms got lacoste/tigre/polo now. im pretty certain id be left with a lot of xxl collared shirts on the floor of my closet. if u decide u wanna do it, just think it thru and make sure u can sell almost all of em. plus, i havent been able to find the same sellers on ebay anymore. regardless, we bought like 50 shirts for $500 ($10/shirt) and sold em for $30-$40/shirt. not bad. problems: you, yourself, have saturated the market forcing you to find new locations. and not all sizes sell equally. i.e. u get 10S, 10M, 10L, 10XL, and 10XXL. its kinda hard to sell the XXLs and Ss but even if u have a few left over u still made enough money to satisfy your enterprising mind. just an idea..coming from two bored college kids who were lookin for a little extra green.

 

[Shredder]

hey thx, thats exactly the kind of simple stuff i was looking for. nothing big but satisfying enough. im wondering though, and this is a big impediment to me, i just cant figure out how to identify the opportunities. i wouldnt want to end up with lots of shirts/etc on my floor. that sounds cool what you did though. howd you come up with that? did you have other ideas cross your mind? Ebay's easy but there are so many ppl on there now, even full timers. i'll have to do some looking into spotting markets and identifying trends. seems like much more valuable knowledge than cramming spinal tracts

hey angus i did some looking into options--youre right, looks low risk and potentially high reward. however why is it that ppl write/sell options? its like...creating risk for yourself in return for a fixed amount of money. could you ever see yourself doing that? It's said to be for advanced financiers only

 

[Primate]

No such thing as "low risk, high reward," except maybe for going to med school.

That's the whole idea behind beta (risk:reward), and with the exception of a very few career tracks (if you can survive them - i-banking /c TOP firms, etc. - even these follow it, really, if you consider the chance of hanging on to PMD level), there are very few opportunities that don't have a direct risk:reward relationship.

Cramming spinal isn't so bad, honest.

P

 

[Seger]

hey thx, thats exactly the kind of simple stuff i was looking for. nothing big but satisfying enough. im wondering though, and this is a big impediment to me, i just cant figure out how to identify the opportunities. i wouldnt want to end up with lots of shirts/etc on my floor. that sounds cool what you did though. howd you come up with that? did you have other ideas cross your mind? Ebay's easy but there are so many ppl on there now, even full timers. i'll have to do some looking into spotting markets and identifying trends. seems like much more valuable knowledge than cramming spinal tracts

hey angus i did some looking into options--youre right, looks low risk and potentially high reward. however why is it that ppl write/sell options? its like...creating risk for yourself in return for a fixed amount of money. could you ever see yourself doing that? It's said to be for advanced financiers only

As my favorite finance professor (I had him for 4 classes: intro finance, derivatives, investments, and money & capital markets) used to say "There's no such thing a a free lunch"

Risks and rewards are not always tangible and monetary.

Writing options can enhance the returns on securities you own if you are in the right situation. For instance, say you own 100 shares of ABC currently trading at $50/share and you think the stock is not going to go up or down any significant amount over the next 3 months. You can write a call option 3 months out for, say $55/share and sell it for a few bucks (the market value will depend on the volatility trends of the stock). If the option is called, which means you have to sell your stock for $55/share, what do you care? You just made a 10% return (plus what you sold the option for) in 3 months - that's over 40% annualized!! On the other hand, if the stock doesn't go up past $55, and you don't get called, you keep your stock and the money you received for selling the call option. Here's the risk/reward tradeoff:

Seller of option is compensated for assuming the risk that the stock will rise over $55 in the three months. He will miss out on any profits over $55 since the option will inevitably be called in that case. He also has added risk in that he can't sell his stock for three months because he has to be able to cover the call if the option is exercised.

The purchaser pays a premium (cost of buying the option) for the liquidity and flexibility of not owning the stock, but still having the right to own it at a set price. His risk is known (the cost of the option) and with an unlimited reward; however it is VERY high risk because it is essentially an all or nothing bet.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

No such thing as "low risk, high reward," except maybe for going to med school.

That's the whole idea behind beta (risk:reward), and with the exception of a very few career tracks (if you can survive them - i-banking /c TOP firms, etc. - even these follow it, really, if you consider the chance of hanging on to PMD level), there are very few opportunities that don't have a direct risk:reward relationship.

Cramming spinal isn't so bad, honest.

P

I think he meant low risk, high reward as in exercising in the money calls for a big gain versus letting the options expire for a (relatively) small loss.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

hey angus i did some looking into options--youre right, looks low risk and potentially high reward. however why is it that ppl write/sell options? its like...creating risk for yourself in return for a fixed amount of money. could you ever see yourself doing that? It's said to be for advanced financiers only

No way I'd write options. I'd be too afraid of covering the call. Unless I worked for a company that paid benefits in terms of stock of which I accumulated over years and the volatility was very low, then I would consider it.

 

[mward04]

*bump*

Saw this post and thought it looked interesting. I worked as a M1 and did consulting for a local surgeon helping improve his cash flow. Worked about 40hrs over the summer and had a nice return. Always nice to have a consulting background Good project though, helped me understand the small practice environment while translating big hospital experience into private practice.

For M1's without any experience, I think there are several options. One, get a business internship. Cold calls are never a bad thing. Just try. Another option is to learn to program and write some programs/websites that are medically related. I'd be happy to talk to anyone that has a question.

Mike

 

[wallstdoc]

Why would someone write options? You can do different combinations of buying and selling puts, calls, and stock so that one actually equals the other mathmatically. Sell a put (write the option) and shorting stock is like buying a call at the put strike. You can see how prices for all these things should line up then and when they get out of wack, that is how professional (arbitrage)traders make money (this is what I did before med school). You can write options to hedge other stuff too, gets VERY complex (my boss got a PhD in math when he was 22), but that is why people write options. Most of the people that write the options are the traders that are basically selling you something for more than its worth. You do that enough times and you make a lot of money. Your average investor should not write uncovered options.

In your previous post you said that options are low risk, high reward, I actually laughed out loud because it is VERY high risk unless you are professionally hedging all your trades. But then I see you only buy options, so in that sense it is much lower risk. You can get more bang for your buck if you buy deep in the money calls, half the outlay of money and still moves dollar for dollar with the stock (pretty much). That is why options traders hate deep calls and baby puts, you lose money on writing them most of the time. But every once in a while (like the crash of 1987) those out of the money puts that guy sells every month to collect a couple bucks, turn out to be worth millions, and he ends up sleeping in a piano crate for the rest of his life

If you want to learn more about how to really trade options, read Options Pricing and Volitility by Natenberg. This is the options bible and every new options trader at our company (and most real trading companies) were required to read it.

 

[Shredder]

Might be doing a stint in Wall St starting shortly actually--I'll update as the situation becomes clear

Yeah I wasn't planning on writing options any time soon, I'd like to sleep in peace

 

[MSwinthrop]

@shredder

I noticed your post in your original thread. For your own interest I think you should read the following.

http://medgadget.com/archives/2005/05/radiology_outso.html
http://www.rediff.com/money/2004/nov/24bpo.htm

 

[Shredder]

Yeah my brother's in rads, he's very familiar with that as far as rads goes. As for path I've heard a little about its outsourcing. Some say this will take a long time to come to fruition though and that there are limitations. Haven't looked into it a great deal.

What's the deal with these though? Like what makes you bring them up? I'm just wondering since your post is brief. I'm Indian actually so these have some unique meaning to me.

 

[MSwinthrop]

in the original thread you posted about your boredom as an M1 you stated that you expected to coast into Radiology or pathology. I'm just saying you shouldn't really expect the jobs to be waiting for you.