Male doctor I scribe for touches/grabs me

[kl899]

To preface this, I've worked in various jobs when I was teenager where, now that I look back, I realize I was the subject of undisputed sexual harassment by male superiors. I shrugged it off and did nothing. My point: I'm not trying to cry wolf. I just want genuine feedback regarding a confusing situation.

I'm an early 20s female that has just started scribing in outpatient for a late 30s male doctor in that is faculty at an Ivy medical school. He presents as quiet, laid-back, yet charming (everyone really likes him), but I've seen an aggressive and mischievous side rise on occasion. Not long after I started working for him, he fell into a habit: touching/grabbing me, gratuitously, while in clinic. Why does this seem odd to me? In the past couple of years, I've developed many a relationship with middle-aged men (this demographic represented nearly all my professors and research advisors in college) not to mention with my father, uncles, etc. I can't recall the last time any of them touched me gratuitously at all. Plus, I barely know this doctor. I know the other men I mentioned a lot better.

I tried to make myself believe that he's just a touchy person, but I follow him around all day and he doesn't touch other employees. He'll sometimes shake patients' hands, and in the few instances when a patient cries, he may touch a forearm or shoulder to comfort them.

But he has no reason to do so with me. We are in clinic, so it's not vulgar touching, but examples are as follows:
-- When he has a spare second, he'll grab food from a cafe right across the hall and regularly asks coworkers nearby if they want anything (yes, so nice of him). In this instance, I'm busy typing and have my side turned to him. In my periphery, I can see him approach me. He'd easily be audible from a few feet away; we are alone and it's quiet. Instead, he leans in, grabs my shoulder, and says: "[My name], I need to ask you a personal question...Would you like anything from [cafe name]? Something to this effect has happened more than once. In contrast, he simply asks other coworkers nearby without touching/"joking" with them.
-- Before we go into a patient's room, he'll usually say "Let's go see Mr. Brown." But he didn't, and without need (I could have easily heard him speak), he grabbed my arm and tugged me toward him, then headed into the patient's room.
-- We had just finished up the morning, and it was time for the lunch break. Again, I was focused on finishing some typing. He approached me out of nowhere from behind, grabbed my shoulder, and mumbled something about going to lunch. It startled me, and again, he could've easily said something audible given how close he was.

Obviously, I'm in no physical harm and I'm not going to scream sexual harassment, but what bothers me is the following: if this was any other person, I'd just say "Hey, I'm really not big into being touched or grabbed, especially when I'm caught off guard. Could you please stop? Thanks." But, I feel I can't say that because of our relative positions and, moreover, I have to continue working for him and it'd be painfully awkward after I said anything. It just would be. He works in a complex specialty, so I was specifically trained to work for him, and he's given me high performance reviews, so I don't have a reason to change who I work for. Plus, I enjoy the job itself and the specialty, so I'd hate to leave.

Maybe other women have had this experience, but it just frustrates me to be grabbed/dragged around by this guy I don't really know. It's difficult to describe, but it makes me feel more akin to a sack of potatoes than an actual human. I don't know.

Thoughts? What to do? Any insight appreciated - thanks in advance.

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[epremed]

I don’t know how others would feel about it but it doesn’t seem to be anything sexual to me. Being a scribe, you might appear to be like a little sister type of feeling for him. The way he asks others if they want food makes me think he genuinely cares for his peers. I mean does he give you like a creepy look or anything like that? Or does he lightly touch your shoulders or is it more of a grope. I think light shoulder touches are pretty common but I’m sure the vibe of it all can definitely make a difference. If you keep feeling uncomfortable just let him know in private.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

I agree this is totally inappropriate. It's very mature of you to take this in a very diplomatic manner.

One thing I want to point out is that it seems like you are tolerating this because this experience is good for your resumé. In order to tackle this situation you really have to get rid of that mindset. Yes, you're in a professional environment so you have to do and say things in a certain way. But that doesn't mean that you should keep quiet about the things that are bothering you.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

I don’t know how others would feel about it but it doesn’t seem to be anything sexual to me. Being a scribe, you might appear to be like a little sister type of feeling for him. The way he asks others if they want food makes me think he genuinely cares for his peers. I mean does he give you like a creepy look or anything like that? Or does he lightly touch your shoulders or is it more of a grope. I think light shoulder touches are pretty common but I’m sure the vibe of it all can definitely make a difference. If you keep feeling uncomfortable just let him know in private.

I agree there are many working women who cry wolf when it comes to accusing their male coworkers/supervisors of sexual harassment and/or are intensely sensitive and very quick to label harmless gestures as something malicious.

OP isn't one of them.

 

[epremed]

I agree there are many working women who cry wolf when it comes to accusing their male coworkers/supervisors of sexual harassment and/or are intensely sensitive and very quick to label harmless gestures as something malicious.

OP isn't one of them.

Yeah I guess the intentions of the doc doesn’t really matter. If OP doesn’t feel comfortable then she should let him know.

 

[Goro]

To preface this, I've worked in various jobs when I was teenager where, now that I look back, I realize I was the subject of undisputed sexual harassment by male superiors. I shrugged it off and did nothing. My point: I'm not trying to cry wolf. I just want genuine feedback regarding a confusing situation.

I'm an early 20s female that has just started scribing in outpatient for a late 30s male doctor in that is faculty at an Ivy medical school. He presents as quiet, laid-back, yet charming (everyone really likes him), but I've seen an aggressive and mischievous side rise on occasion. Not long after I started working for him, he fell into a habit: touching/grabbing me, gratuitously, while in clinic. Why does this seem odd to me? In the past couple of years, I've developed many a relationship with middle-aged men (this demographic represented nearly all my professors and research advisors in college) not to mention with my father, uncles, etc. I can't recall the last time any of them touched me gratuitously at all. Plus, I barely know this doctor. I know the other men I mentioned a lot better.

I tried to make myself believe that he's just a touchy person, but I follow him around all day and he doesn't touch other employees. He'll sometimes shake patients' hands, and in the few instances when a patient cries, he may touch a forearm or shoulder to comfort them.

But he has no reason to do so with me. We are in clinic, so it's not vulgar touching, but examples are as follows:
-- When he has a spare second, he'll grab food from a cafe right across the hall and regularly asks coworkers nearby if they want anything (yes, so nice of him). In this instance, I'm busy typing and have my side turned to him. In my periphery, I can see him approach me. He'd easily be audible from a few feet away; we are alone and it's quiet. Instead, he leans in, grabs my shoulder, and says: "[My name], I need to ask you a personal question...Would you like anything from [cafe name]? Something to this effect has happened more than once. In contrast, he simply asks other coworkers nearby without touching/"joking" with them.
-- Before we go into a patient's room, he'll usually say "Let's go see Mr. Brown." But he didn't, and without need (I could have easily heard him speak), he grabbed my arm and tugged me toward him, then headed into the patient's room.
-- We had just finished up the morning, and it was time for the lunch break. Again, I was focused on finishing some typing. He approached me out of nowhere from behind, grabbed my shoulder, and mumbled something about going to lunch. It startled me, and again, he could've easily said something audible given how close he was.

Obviously, I'm in no physical harm and I'm not going to scream sexual harassment, but what bothers me is the following: if this was any other person, I'd just say "Hey, I'm really not big into being touched or grabbed, especially when I'm caught off guard. Could you please stop? Thanks." But, I feel I can't say that because of our relative positions and, moreover, I have to continue working for him and it'd be painfully awkward after I said anything. It just would be. He works in a complex specialty, so I was specifically trained to work for him, and he's given me high performance reviews, so I don't have a reason to change who I work for. Plus, I enjoy the job itself and the specialty, so I'd hate to leave.

Maybe other women have had this experience, but it just frustrates me to be grabbed/dragged around by this guy I don't really know. It's difficult to describe, but it makes me feel more akin to a sack of potatoes than an actual human. I don't know.

Thoughts? What to do? Any insight appreciated - thanks in advance.

I'm going to be blunt: is your scribing more important than you being touched unwantedly and being harrassed?

This doctor knows what he's doing. Now 1) tell the doc to stop touching you. 2) document everything from now on 3) get your butt to HR and complain.

 

[getdown]

Have you tried telling him that it makes you feel weird and that it's not appropriate? If he continues then you have your answer.

 

[curbsideconsult]

At this time, it seems to me such a gray area. I can see many SDNers saying, "Oh, you special millenial snowflake, you think that's bad? Wait til med school/residency/real life/etc.!" with still others saying, "This is outright harassment! You should report him to HR immediately!"

He could be using his actions to test the waters. What he's doing could be completely innocent, or it could be him making steps towards something worse than what he's doing now. I believe this is called grooming (unless SVU has led me astray).

 

[Disciple of Sattar]

You either ask him to stop or he will keep doing it, it's up to you.

 

[Neutropix]

I'm going to be blunt: is your scribing more important than you being touched unwantedly and being harrassed?

This doctor knows what he's doing. Now 1) tell the doc to stop touching you. 2) document everything from now on 3) get your butt to HR and complain.

If you were my little sister this is exactly what I'd tell you to do ^. This isn't Hollywood where you have to tolerate bullsh*t like this to have a career.

 

[Osminog]

Medicine, like any other profession, has its own special subset of perverts, scumbags, and socially inept tools. At the large hospital I volunteered at, there were doctors who were drug addicts, who had not-so-secret adulterous relationships with nurses and scribes, and who compulsively lied to patients and staff. (Of course, most of the doctors at the hospital were phenomenal and passionate about their work; we're talking about a small subset here).

It sounds like the doctor whom you're scribing for happens to be one of the vile jerks described above.

Here's the problem: If you tell him to stop (especially in an assertive or confrontational manner), then he will probably feel self-conscious and uncomfortable. Are you OK with not asking this physician for a letter of recommendation?

 

[NITRAS]

I would trust your spidy senses and get away from this guy. Do what you have to, but ultimately I would not work with this person.

If you were my sister, I'd tell you to get out now while the getting is good.

 

[DubbiDoctor]

Trust that you understand yourself to know when a man's crosses the boundary beyond over-friendliness to harassment. First, tell him that his behavior has made you uncomfortable and is not appropriate. If his bad behavior persists, report him to HR, the chair of his department and the scribing company - and contact all of his supervisors and colleagues about his behavior (perhaps they have witnessed or experienced similar unwanted contact) and quit. No job is worth being sexually harassed and made to feel exploitable - especially not a low paying scribing job.

 

[bikeforever]

To preface this, I've worked in various jobs when I was teenager where, now that I look back, I realize I was the subject of undisputed sexual harassment by male superiors. I shrugged it off and did nothing. My point: I'm not trying to cry wolf. I just want genuine feedback regarding a confusing situation.

I'm an early 20s female that has just started scribing in outpatient for a late 30s male doctor in that is faculty at an Ivy medical school. He presents as quiet, laid-back, yet charming (everyone really likes him), but I've seen an aggressive and mischievous side rise on occasion. Not long after I started working for him, he fell into a habit: touching/grabbing me, gratuitously, while in clinic. Why does this seem odd to me? In the past couple of years, I've developed many a relationship with middle-aged men (this demographic represented nearly all my professors and research advisors in college) not to mention with my father, uncles, etc. I can't recall the last time any of them touched me gratuitously at all. Plus, I barely know this doctor. I know the other men I mentioned a lot better.

I tried to make myself believe that he's just a touchy person, but I follow him around all day and he doesn't touch other employees. He'll sometimes shake patients' hands, and in the few instances when a patient cries, he may touch a forearm or shoulder to comfort them.

But he has no reason to do so with me. We are in clinic, so it's not vulgar touching, but examples are as follows:
-- When he has a spare second, he'll grab food from a cafe right across the hall and regularly asks coworkers nearby if they want anything (yes, so nice of him). In this instance, I'm busy typing and have my side turned to him. In my periphery, I can see him approach me. He'd easily be audible from a few feet away; we are alone and it's quiet. Instead, he leans in, grabs my shoulder, and says: "[My name], I need to ask you a personal question...Would you like anything from [cafe name]? Something to this effect has happened more than once. In contrast, he simply asks other coworkers nearby without touching/"joking" with them.
-- Before we go into a patient's room, he'll usually say "Let's go see Mr. Brown." But he didn't, and without need (I could have easily heard him speak), he grabbed my arm and tugged me toward him, then headed into the patient's room.
-- We had just finished up the morning, and it was time for the lunch break. Again, I was focused on finishing some typing. He approached me out of nowhere from behind, grabbed my shoulder, and mumbled something about going to lunch. It startled me, and again, he could've easily said something audible given how close he was.

Obviously, I'm in no physical harm and I'm not going to scream sexual harassment, but what bothers me is the following: if this was any other person, I'd just say "Hey, I'm really not big into being touched or grabbed, especially when I'm caught off guard. Could you please stop? Thanks." But, I feel I can't say that because of our relative positions and, moreover, I have to continue working for him and it'd be painfully awkward after I said anything. It just would be. He works in a complex specialty, so I was specifically trained to work for him, and he's given me high performance reviews, so I don't have a reason to change who I work for. Plus, I enjoy the job itself and the specialty, so I'd hate to leave.

Maybe other women have had this experience, but it just frustrates me to be grabbed/dragged around by this guy I don't really know. It's difficult to describe, but it makes me feel more akin to a sack of potatoes than an actual human. I don't know.

Thoughts? What to do? Any insight appreciated - thanks in advance.

As a MS2 parent and career Employment Lawyer and Employee Relations Executive, I concur with the comments that any unwelcome touching is inappropriate. You should speak with your boss about the behavior leading with the positives i.e. how much you have learned and how grateful you are for the opportunity and then telling him using clear language that the touching makes you uncomfortable. If he persists or if you are uncomfortable with a direct contact, speak with someone in HR.

 

[bluemamba7]

From what you’ve been saying, it seems like the doctor is a nice guy and genuinely caring, so I would give him the benifit of the doubt and speak to him first before contacting HR. If his behavior continues, however, contact HR and your scribing company. That’s just how I would respond

 

[raiderette]

This is a good lesson in standing up for yourself. If he is a decent person, he will apologize and stop. If he persists, then he is making an informed choice to harass you. This is a workplace, and it should not be a grey area.
Don't let people touch you without consent. Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using SDN mobile

 

[Stagg737]

Obviously, I'm in no physical harm and I'm not going to scream sexual harassment, but what bothers me is the following: if this was any other person, I'd just say "Hey, I'm really not big into being touched or grabbed, especially when I'm caught off guard. Could you please stop? Thanks." But, I feel I can't say that because of our relative positions and, moreover, I have to continue working for him and it'd be painfully awkward after I said anything. It just would be. He works in a complex specialty, so I was specifically trained to work for him, and he's given me high performance reviews, so I don't have a reason to change who I work for. Plus, I enjoy the job itself and the specialty, so I'd hate to leave.

Whether or not this is harassment (which if what you've described is accurate then it certainly seems so), there's not really much you can do until you state to him that you're not comfortable with the physical contact. Even if you went to HR right now, he'd probably say that he had no idea it made you comfortable and likely not much would change other than he'd probably stop touching you and things would be even more awkward than if you approached him yourself. If you feel like you're not in any danger by talking to him, then you should address this with him directly. Even if you think it will make things painfully awkward. Ask yourself this: "What's going to be more awkward/uncomfortable, letting him continue to touch you or telling him you enjoy working with him but just don't like being touched?". If that doesn't resolve the issue or things get worse, then it's time to go straight to HR.

Frankly, you should have addressed it after the first time it made you uncomfortable, but what's done is done and you can't change that now. You do need to address this asap though, as the longer you wait the harder and more awkward the situation will become.

 

[Dr.Housexoxo]

As woman in any field it is sometimes difficult to decipher what counts as harassment or if you should even report it. Honestly trust your senses.
If you feel uncomfortable address the issue. If it continues take the issue to HR and it comes down to it request another doctor to scribe for. Personally, I would no longer want to work for the doctor since boundaries have already been crossed, but it is up to you. Remember self respect>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>than a job

 

[Kr#36]

Medicine, like any other profession, has its own special subset of perverts, scumbags, and socially inept tools. At the large hospital I volunteered at, there were doctors who were drug addicts, who had not-so-secret adulterous relationships with nurses and scribes, and who compulsively lied to patients and staff. (Of course, most of the doctors at the hospital were phenomenal and passionate about their work; we're talking about a small subset here).

It sounds like the doctor whom you're scribing for happens to be one of the vile jerks described above.

Here's the problem: If you tell him to stop (especially in an assertive or confrontational manner), then he will probably feel self-conscious and uncomfortable. Are you OK with not asking this physician for a letter of recommendation?

Are we honestly cool with dubbing this guy a vile jerk when the only info we have is that he touched her shoulder and asked if he could get her something to eat?

This isn’t hard, if for whatever reason his actions are making you uncomfortable, ask him to stop. If he’s a genuinely good guy he will. If he’s not, he won’t and then you’ll know it’s a situation that requires a superior’s help.

 

[Osminog]

Are we honestly cool with dubbing this guy a vile jerk when the only info we have is that he touched her shoulder and asked if he could get her something to eat?

This isn’t hard, if for whatever reason his actions are making you uncomfortable, ask him to stop. If he’s a genuinely good guy he will. If he’s not, he won’t and then you’ll know it’s a situation that requires a superior’s help.

Repeatedly touching, grabbing, and tugging on your co-workers (especially if they are below you on the totem pole) is unprofessional behavior, plain and simple. Didn't we all learn the maxim "Keep your hands to yourself" in elementary school?

In the best case scenario, this doctor is socially dysfunctional and doesn't understand professional boundaries. In the worst case scenario, he is aggressively grooming OP for future exploitation. It's hard to know.

 

[dr_kateb]

Sounds like he's just trying to be friendly to me...? Compared to your/his coworkers how quiet/reserved are you? Maybe he's just trying to get you to open up. Either that or he wants to take you on a date.

 

[Kr#36]

Repeatedly touching, grabbing, and tugging on your co-workers (especially if they are below you on the totem pole) is unprofessional behavior, plain and simple. Didn't we all learn the maxim "Keep your hands to yourself" in elementary school?

In the best case scenario, this doctor is socially dysfunctional and doesn't understand professional boundaries. In the worst case scenario, he is aggressively grooming OP for future exploitation. It's hard to know.

I think it’s safe to assume it’s the first step in his plan for world domination.

My point is that it’s quite a leap to call him vile and assume malicious intent based on the info we have.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

Should probably say "stop it weirdo" jovially or similar before ruining his life and making you look like an over 9000 safe spacer.

And gentlemen, take note, this is why you limit interactions with women in the workplace to strictly professional interactions. Even polite small talk is coming under the umbrella of gender-based misconduct - I just settled a subcobcious bias issue involving a man asking a woman how old her kids were. Certainly you should never touch or even consider dating women you work with.

 

[DubbiDoctor]

Should probably say "stop it weirdo" jovially or similar before ruining his life and making you look like an over 9000 safe spacer.

And gentlemen, take note, this is why you limit interactions with women in the workplace to strictly professional interactions. Even polite small talk is coming under the umbrella of gender-based misconduct - I just settled a subcobcious bias issue involving a man asking a woman how old her kids were. Certainly you should never touch or even consider dating women you work with.

Did the subconscious bias issue result from the man assuming the woman had children?

 

[Skiiiiiing]

Did the subconscious bias issue result from the man assuming the woman had children?

Nope. The complaint alleged that the man was suggesting women's value was based on their age. ...

I'm firmly against real harassment, but the culture is out of control in some places. The Nunegesser-Sulkowicz saga is the best public example.

 

[Kr#36]

Assumptions about the physician are irrelevant. The OP is requesting advice, feeling that the physician's behavior is inappropriate and making her uncomfortable. So the advice being given in this thread is in her best interest, not that of the physician. The best advice is to first speak to him about his behavior, and if it persists, to quit and report him to the scribing company, HR and his supervisors, since no job is worth it if it involves sexual harassment. Speculating about the physician's character or whether the OP's allegations are accurate is pointless.

Why are you telling me this? My entire point was a response to someone that we shouldn’t speculate about the doctor because we don’t know him.

 

[DBC03]

OP, there are two possibilities - this doctor could be a little more touchy-feely than the average person and mean no harm, or he could be a creep. Either way, it makes you uncomfortable and you should definitely say something. If he's not a creep, he would be mortified to know this is making you uncomfortable. If he is a creep, it may take a few conversations to get it to stop. Start by giving him the benefit of the doubt and say something as soon as you can. There's always the option of bringing it up at some point when things are a little less busy or stressful at the office. But it might be best to say something right after he touches you - if he startles you or touches your shoulder you could jerk away and make a low-key comment about how you're uncomfortable with people touching you. This might be a better option than waiting as it will be harder for him to act like he's not touching you, and he'll understand what you are talking about if he's genuinely not touching you on purpose. If he's not being a creep, then he should get the hint and stop. If he is being a creep and continues to do it, then you can bring it up again at a different point. If he still does it, then you go to HR.

 

[Osminog]

OP, there are two possibilities - this doctor could be a little more touchy-feely than the average person

Except OP clearly said that the doctor doesn't behave this way with any of the other employees he interacts with.

 

[calivianya]

Hate to be this person, but I think if you're planning on using him for a LOR, you should get it from him ASAP and have the discussion about touch after. There's a chance it will damage your relationship with him to have this conversation about his behavior, and if you need that LOR, Id' make sure that's out of the way first. You can always use interfolio so you don't have to wait for the AMCAS application to open to get his letter in.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

OP, there are two possibilities - this doctor could be a little more touchy-feely than the average person and mean no harm, or he could be a creep. Either way, it makes you uncomfortable and you should definitely say something. If he's not a creep, he would be mortified to know this is making you uncomfortable. If he is a creep, it may take a few conversations to get it to stop. Start by giving him the benefit of the doubt and say something as soon as you can. There's always the option of bringing it up at some point when things are a little less busy or stressful at the office. But it might be best to say something right after he touches you - if he startles you or touches your shoulder you could jerk away and make a low-key comment about how you're uncomfortable with people touching you. This might be a better option than waiting as it will be harder for him to act like he's not touching you, and he'll understand what you are talking about if he's genuinely not touching you on purpose. If he's not being a creep, then he should get the hint and stop. If he is being a creep and continues to do it, then you can bring it up again at a different point. If he still does it, then you go to HR.

Going to HR right away would be appropriate if it's something outrageous.

If you go to HR for a touch on the shoulder without attempting to resolve on your own...

 

[Skiiiiiing]

Why are you telling me this? My entire point was a response to someone that we shouldn’t speculate about the doctor because we don’t know him.

Well he did touch her on the shoulder. With Mormons, radfems, half of millennials he is literally a rapist.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

Hate to be this person, but I think if you're planning on using him for a LOR, you should get it from him ASAP and have the discussion about touch after. There's a chance it will damage your relationship with him to have this conversation about his behavior, and if you need that LOR, Id' make sure that's out of the way first. You can always use interfolio so you don't have to wait for the AMCAS application to open to get his letter in.

Bilk that dumb sap for a letter while plotting to ruin his life for touching your shoulder. Ecce feminism

 

[calivianya]

Bilk that dumb sap for a letter while plotting to ruin his life for touching your shoulder. Ecce feminism

Nowhere did I say ruin the guy's life - it's not like I said get the letter before running to HR; I said get the letter before having the conversation.

 

[DBC03]

Except OP clearly said that the doctor doesn't behave this way with any of the other employees he interacts with.

It's possible (not probable) that the other people in the office had a similar issue, but discussed this with him at one point. This is unlikely, but as the OP doesn't know exactly why the doctor is acting this way it's best to assume he is unaware of his actions. Once she tells him he is making her uncomfortable he has no excuse. I'm really uncomfortable with touchy people but have realized that some people don't realize how uncomfortable it makes me.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

Nowhere did I say ruin the guy's life - it's not like I said get the letter before running to HR; I said get the letter before having the conversation.

There's a time and a place for Machiavellian conduct. This is neither.

Basis being that if you ask for a letter and then go level 9000 safe spacer, you're going to make a mortal enemy out of someone, and odds are a letter writer is not helpless in these situations.

 

[raiderette]

There's a time and a place for Machiavellian conduct. This is neither.

Basis being that if you ask for a letter and then go level 9000 safe spacer, you're going to make a moral enemy out of someone, and odds are a letter writer is not helpless in these situations.

It is hardly level 9000 to have a conversation about professional behavior.

 

[RockMcat520]

If I was in your place, I would simply start looking for a different scribing job and quit ASAP.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

It is hardly level 9000 to have a conversation about professional behavior.

The tone of the OP in response to a shoulder touch is absolutely level 9000, "Aziz raped me" material

If you ask for a letter and then assert millenialism, it'll make a serious business enemy out of the guy, I promise.

 

[calivianya]

There's a time and a place for Machiavellian conduct. This is neither.

Basis being that if you ask for a letter and then go level 9000 safe spacer, you're going to make a mortal enemy out of someone, and odds are a letter writer is not helpless in these situations.

I would hardly call it Machiavellian to try to get a letter while a relationship is still good. OP herself says she thinks having this conversation with the physician will make the relationship awkward.

What is your suggestion - that she throws away the time and experience she has gotten in this position by leaving without a letter?

I have plenty of coworkers, both male and female, and as old as in their 50s, that are not comfortable with casual touch. It is hardly a trait of millennials and/or feminists to enjoy having their personal space respected.

 

[Dr.Housexoxo]

Some people do not like to be touched or to have their personal space invaded.

OP literally states ;

But, I feel I can't say that because of our relative positions and, moreover, I have to continue working for him and it'd be painfully awkward after I said anything.

I think many women and even some men are reluctant to say things that they are uncomfortable with due to their "inferior " positions because they feel like the whatever gained from the job experience outweighs the bad or that they just don't want to cause problems. As someone who hates confrontation even if it is minor, I understand why the OP is reluctant to do this, but like others have said conjure up some confidence and ask him to stop. If he continues then report to HR. Plus if the conversation goes well I do think she can maintain a professional relationship with the doctor and ask for the LOR

 

[Skiiiiiing]

I would hardly call it Machiavellian to try to get a letter while a relationship is still good. OP herself says she thinks having this conversation with the physician will make the relationship awkward.

I don't like touching in a professional setting either, but I just shrug it off because I'm an adult.

Its flat narcissistic to ask for a letter on day one and then get in their face on day two about a shoulder touch and not expect some form of retribution.

Its underhanded to ask favors of people while silently plotting adversarial conduct.

 

[Mooseforkicks]

I don't like touching in a professional setting either, but I just shrug it off because I'm an adult.

Its flat narcissistic to ask for a letter on day one and then get in their face on day two about a shoulder touch and not expect some form of retribution.

Its underhanded to ask favors of people while silently plotting adversarial conduct.

It is not “adversarial” to ask a supervisor to not unnecessarily touch you. I’m not saying this doctor is a sexual predator, but anyone (including OP) has a right to choose whether or not they want other people to touch them. It’s as simple as that. It (at this point) doesn’t need to be an accusation or an HR issue. It’s simply a request to respect personal space.

If the touching is innocent, the doctor shouldn’t have a problem with this request. If he retaliates to a request that he respect an employee’s personal space, it is HIS problem.

And as someone who has experience with personal space being violated by others, even after a request to stop, I STRONGLY object to your characterization that trying to have control over who touches you is “adversarial.” It is ANYONE’S right, male or female, to set reasonable personal boundaries and expect others (particularly in a professional setting) to respect them.

 

[Verity]

Frankly, it comes down to what you're comfortable with. I agree with the other posters that yes, you should have said something a long time ago as it likely would have been less awkward, but that's now in the past.

I know you like your specialty and job.

Do you think this situation has progressed so far that regardless of the outcome of a confrontation you'd feel uncomfortable in the workplace? If so, consider finding a job elsewhere.

If not, consider the following approaches in order from (IMO) least confrontational to most (but all still pretty chill and shouldn't make things too awkward):
- The next time he touches you, act startled, and say something to the effect of, "yo, doc, you startled me. Let's stick to words from now on" in a light tone. If it continues a second time, either lightly remind him, "words", or try, "doc, I'm serious, can we please drop the physical contact? I'm not a touchy person". If it persists a third time, definitely go firm.
- The next time he touches you, go straight to "doc, can we please drop the physical contact? I'm not a touchy person" Either light or firm tone
- The next time you see him, say, "Good morning Dr. ***. I have a quick request - I'm really not a touchy person, and would appreciate it if we just stuck to exchanging words from now on"

If you want to minimize the awkwardness and aside from the touching enjoy working with the physician, try something to the effect of the above. If it doesn't work, that's a problem, and there's great advice already made above. It all comes down to what YOU are comfortable with.

 

[Kr#36]

Some people do not like to be touched or to have their personal space invaded.

OP literally states ;


I think many women and even some men are reluctant to say things that they are uncomfortable with due to their "inferior " positions because they feel like the whatever gained from the job experience outweighs the bad or that they just don't want to cause problems. As someone who hates confrontation even if it is minor, I understand why the OP is reluctant to do this, but like others have said conjure up some confidence and ask him to stop. If he continues then report to HR. Plus if the conversation goes well I do think she can maintain a professional relationship with the doctor and ask for the LOR

I’d avoid asking for a LOR. It’s too big of a risk. If he’s not being a creep at all then he looks at her as a snowflake for being so offended over nothing. If he is a creep then he immediately thinks negatively of her because she spurned his advances and poses a danger to his career. You won’t see the LOR before your schools do so I wouldn’t risk having a bad letter ruin your app cycle if you do decide to confront him.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

It is not “adversarial” to ask a supervisor to not unnecessarily touch you. I’m not saying this doctor is a sexual predator, but anyone (including OP) has a right to choose whether or not they want other people to touch them. It’s as simple as that. It (at this point) doesn’t need to be an accusation or an HR issue. It’s simply a request to respect personal space.

If the touching is innocent, the doctor shouldn’t have a problem with this request. If he retaliates to a request that he respect an employee’s personal space, it is HIS problem.

And as someone who has experience with personal space being violated by others, even after a request to stop, I STRONGLY object to your characterization that trying to have control over who touches you is “adversarial.” It is ANYONE’S right, male or female, to set reasonable personal boundaries and expect others (particularly in a professional setting) to respect them.

You're deus vulting against a projection.

I agree that if they feel that uncomfortable with it, they should bring it up, with the appreciation that 70/30 its benign or innocuous in nature.

That said, I think scheming to get a letter from him is in this context is both unwise and underhanded.

 

[Mooseforkicks]

You're deus vulting against a projection.

I agree that if they feel that uncomfortable with it, they should bring it up, with the appreciation that 70/30 its benign or innocuous in nature.

That said, I think scheming to get a letter from him is in this context is both unwise and underhanded.

You’ve consistently trivialized someone’s desire not to have others touch them without permission as being childlike (instead, you shrug it off “because I’m an adult”), “millennialism,” “level 9000 safe spacer,” and “adversarial.” You’ve accused someone who suggested that OP have a conversation with the doctor about how OP feels uncomfortable as “getting in their face” and “plotting to ruin [the doctor’s] life.”

You’ve painted the picture that it is unacceptable/agressive/infantile to have a problem with a supervisor touching you and wanting him to stop. And when I point out that this attitude is problematic, you accuse me of arguing with a projection.

It’s possible to point out that the situation may be unintentional or innocent without implying that someone is weak/entitled/hysterical because they feel uncomfortable that another person is unnecessarily touching them.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

OP, I am a woman who has gone through similar experiences in my past. First and foremost, you must understand that you are in a lose/lose situation. If the guy is acting innocently, and you bring it up, he will be freaked out and walk on eggshells around you, because he doesn’t see his behavior as abnormal. After all, it’s just touching somebody on the shoulder. If, on the other hand, he is being creepy, you are stirring the pot and putting him on edge, and you are now someone to be wary of. Either way, his letter for you will not be good. You have to decide how much it’s worth it to you to stay silent. The most ideal situation is to get away from him, and find another job. But if you think this will make or break your application, then make your choice.
This is not your fault, but unfortunately you have to be the one dealing with the consequences because you are in the position of less power. As an example, I was consistently sexually harassed when I was a medical student by the head of my surgery rotation. Not jail-worthy, but quite uncomfortable (touching my face, trying to “pet” my hair, commenting on the tightness of my sweater, etc). I knew if I reported him, I might not get the honors grade I needed if he retaliated, and my ortho application might be jeopardized. I asked my father for advice. I said, “it’s the right thing to do to report him.” And my father said, “in an ideal world, yes. But in the real world, do you want to be right, or do you want to be a surgeon? Remember, he and others like him will die soon, and you need to be there to take their place.” Now the dude’s retired and probably dead. He’s been replaced by younger people who do not allow this behavior. And I ...am a surgeon. Would I have gotten there anyway if I had reported him? Or perhaps, would things have been brushed under the rug and the only consequences would be for me, not for him? Perhaps. I will never know. All I know is that it wasn’t severe enough for me to leave, and I was not willing to take any risks when it came to achieving my goal. If I were in your situation, I would not jeopardize my job or future for a shoulder touch. But again, that’s my opinion, and it is not for everyone. You have to decide what is right for you.

Addendum: there is a light at the end of the tunnel. As an attending, one of the (non-ortho) older surgeons grabbed me around the waist in our lounge. I promptly asked if I therefore had free rein to grab his junk every time he passed by, since it was now cool to grab people, and that I’d be happy to oblige. He never did it again.

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[deleted915763]

You could lie and say it makes you uncomfortable in a way that he won't think you are "targetting him" specifically. For example "Hey, I don't mean to seem weird, but, I am a very on-edge person and I don't like when people get really close to me or touch me. Again, sorry if I sound rude or mean, I hope you don't take it the wrong way"

i.e Sort of kiss up to him/her and make it seem like YOU are the wierd one.

NOW ONLY DO THIS IF YOU ARE TRYING TO GET THE LETTER OF REC. If you aren't trying to get the letter anymore, be direct and confrontational.

Goodluck, play that chump like he's a guitar.

 

[IJL]

Did the subconscious bias issue result from the man assuming the woman had children?

Or assuming that the person identified as a woman?