male students doing pelvic exams, paps, colpos

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Colba55o

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I'm on my family med rotation and have been having very bad luck at getting any opportunities to do gyn procedures except for the breast exam. Usually I will go and see the patient first, and the discomfort when I walk in the room is pretty obvious. I'm not planning on going into ob/gyn, but I figure I should at least get some experience in it.

Any guys have the same problem with female patients refusing to have them do their pelvic exams (or even be present for them).Any advice or tactics that have worked to make them more comfortable with it? I have just been chalking it up to MS III year being all about not taking anything personally, but I'm starting to get discouraged and want to just avoid any ob/gyn cases altogether. I don't think of myself as a threatening kind of guy, and I look pretty neat when I'm in clinic, so I don't know what I can do differently.

The real kicker, is that I am the gayest gay boy, who has no interest in seeing the female pudenda except to diagnose and fix whatever is wrong down there. I am kinda butch for a gay guy though.. wonder if queening out a bit will make the ladies feel more at ease :confused:

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I wouldn't take it personally. If a med student wanted to practice prostate exams on me when I went to clinic as a patient, I wouldn't be exactly thrilled either. You are not going into OB and even if you were, well that's what internship is all about. I know, I know, we're supposed be learning medicine since we're medical students right? Well, somewhere along the line they decided to change that rule but forgot to tell us about it.
 
It's all about how you enter the room. (I'm a female)

Enter the room with "I'm student doctor so-and-so" and make sure you talk to her for a few minutes before you just do the exam.
 
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Its a fact of life that patients often prefer someone of a certain gender and often are uncomfortable with a student. When I was a 3rd year, I was the only female student on the Ob-Gyn rotation...my male colleagues were often turned down for assisting at deliveries and for exams in clinic. I benefitted but felt bad for them because they truly wanted to learn.

I suppose becoming a little more flamboyant might help you with some women who are concerned about the possible sexual connotations, but it probably won't help in most cases.
 
The real kicker, is that I am the gayest gay boy, who has no interest in seeing the female pudenda except to diagnose and fix whatever is wrong down there. I am kinda butch for a gay guy though.. wonder if queening out a bit will make the ladies feel more at ease :confused:

Probably. But then none of the guys will let you near them.
 
I'm on my family med rotation and have been having very bad luck at getting any opportunities to do gyn procedures except for the breast exam.

That doesn't sound too bad.....

The real kicker, is that I am the gayest gay boy, who has no interest in seeing the female pudenda except to diagnose and fix whatever is wrong down there. I am kinda butch for a gay guy though.. wonder if queening out a bit will make the ladies feel more at ease :confused:

I promise you that "gaying out" will not help. I have a gay friend who didn't match into OB, mostly because he was the gayest gay boy. While it may help with one or two patients, it will be deleterious to your evaluations, since most doctors will find it unprofessional.....and gross......
 
wonder if queening out a bit will make the ladies feel more at ease :confused:

I'll bet it would help some, don't go all out but do the inflection in the voice, etc.

I certainly haven't done any male genital exams yet and I'm a 4th yr, not an uncommon problem.
 
I'm on my family med rotation and have been having very bad luck at getting any opportunities to do gyn procedures except for the breast exam. Usually I will go and see the patient first, and the discomfort when I walk in the room is pretty obvious. I'm not planning on going into ob/gyn, but I figure I should at least get some experience in it.

Any guys have the same problem with female patients refusing to have them do their pelvic exams (or even be present for them).Any advice or tactics that have worked to make them more comfortable with it? I have just been chalking it up to MS III year being all about not taking anything personally, but I'm starting to get discouraged and want to just avoid any ob/gyn cases altogether. I don't think of myself as a threatening kind of guy, and I look pretty neat when I'm in clinic, so I don't know what I can do differently.

The real kicker, is that I am the gayest gay boy, who has no interest in seeing the female pudenda except to diagnose and fix whatever is wrong down there. I am kinda butch for a gay guy though.. wonder if queening out a bit will make the ladies feel more at ease :confused:
Two things:
1. I think a subtle "I'm gay" message would help, not so much because of the sexual connotations but because women often open up and relax around gay men. When I used to go to the hair salon all the time, only the "out" men (queeny or not) would be accepted into the circle and allowed to do hair. I guess it depends in part where you are from, of course....
The most important message to send, gay or not, is that you are respectful, sensitive, and gentle. . If they feel that way about you they are more likely to allow the exam.

2. Go to the ED for gyn experience. Lots of women show up with random gyn complaints and don't really care who does their pelvic exams for the most part. The same is true for men, I have gotten in a lot of male exams in the ED.
 
Is this a private clinic?

If your hospital has a public OB/GYN rotation, you'll do enough of these things to do them in your sleep (which you won't get much of after thinking of the nightmarish exam findings that you see in a public hospital).

I'm male and not gay, and while we all have some trouble, I realize in retrospect that I had no trouble getting what I needed to know in the public hospital setting.
 
I'm on my family med rotation and have been having very bad luck at getting any opportunities to do gyn procedures except for the breast exam. Usually I will go and see the patient first, and the discomfort when I walk in the room is pretty obvious. I'm not planning on going into ob/gyn, but I figure I should at least get some experience in it.

Any guys have the same problem with female patients refusing to have them do their pelvic exams (or even be present for them).Any advice or tactics that have worked to make them more comfortable with it? I have just been chalking it up to MS III year being all about not taking anything personally, but I'm starting to get discouraged and want to just avoid any ob/gyn cases altogether. I don't think of myself as a threatening kind of guy, and I look pretty neat when I'm in clinic, so I don't know what I can do differently.

The real kicker, is that I am the gayest gay boy, who has no interest in seeing the female pudenda except to diagnose and fix whatever is wrong down there. I am kinda butch for a gay guy though.. wonder if queening out a bit will make the ladies feel more at ease :confused:

On Labor and Delivery, a lot of patients seemed uncomfortable when I walked into their room to see them - and I'm a female.

Don't take it personally. Some of the patients (especially the young ones) might be uncomfortable because you're a guy. Others will feel uncomfortable because you're a student, and others will feel uncomfortable because they don't know you. There's not much that you can do about it. If they go ahead and let you examine them, then just be confident and sensitive. Being confident on OB/gyn-related stuff is really helpful.

If they don't let you examine them, just step out and get the resident. If that happens, don't let it bother you - I had a few patients who refused (VERY bluntly) to let the senior resident even touch their blankets. It happens to everyone.

"Gaying" it out might not really help. Some patients are remarkably obtuse when it comes to these things. Others might be uncomfortable around gay guys, period. And others will not be able to look past your gender, no matter what orientation you are. Just be yourself and be confident. Good luck! :luck:
 
I have a gay friend who didn't match into OB, mostly because he was the gayest gay boy.

Woah, your friend can't be the gayest gay boy because this guy says HE'S the gayest gay boy. We should get them together for a contest to see who is really the gayest of them all. Meanwhile, I'll be one state over throwing up.
 
I didn't have too many rejections...probably because most at my school aren't english speaking, and they don't know any better...but what bothered me most about ob and gyn training is that i left the rotation not knowing what i thought was most important (how to deliver a baby in an emergency as a graduating medical student). that was one of the things i wanted to learn in med school, and i just dont feel like i could do it if i had to.
 
Woah, your friend can't be the gayest gay boy because this guy says HE'S the gayest gay boy. We should get them together for a contest to see who is really the gayest of them all. Meanwhile, I'll be one state over throwing up.

Well, I think my friend won the 2006 "Gayest Gay" pageant. This guy sounds like a contestant for the 2007 festivities.

Either way, I bet the awesomeness of their homosexuality is comparable.
 
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*PC patrol*

So, I'm a homo and yet most people don't know (call it "straight-acting" or whatever you want). But, I didn't have much trouble getting in on deliveries and pelvics (mostly because I'm kind of shy, but sincere and sensitive, enough so that the preceptors pretty much forced me to jump in with both hands).

But, seriously - WTF is up with all the homophobia in this thread? (I don't really expect an answer - just rhetorical)
 
For starters, the subtle homophobia I seemed to incite is kind of disturbing; which leads me to another unrelated instance, where an attending in our office said something totally inappropriate and insensitive to gay people around me and 3 female students. He never would have made this comment had he known that I "don't like women" as he put it. Be careful people, don't assume that masculine, sports watching, beer drinking deep voiced guys are always straight.

My comment about queening out was just a joke...I don't think I could queen out if I even tried, and I'd wind up more looking like a ****** than a sensitive gay man. I can't help but think at least half of the women wouldnt have minded me doing the exam if they had known.

This happened again today by the way. A mother brought her 17 yr old daughter in, to talk about birth control. As soon as I walked in, introduce myself as student doctor so and so..and that Dr. X(who is female) will be in soon. She retaliates "Is Dr. X a woman??!" Then when Dr. X arrived, halfway through the history she blurts out, "Does HE have to be here? My daughter prefers a female doctor!"

I won't lie..it sucked to get kicked out of the room in the middle of my exam, especially since the girl didnt have to remove a single item of clothing. BUT on the flipside..I got to at least WATCH a pelvic exam today :oops:
 
masculine, sports watching, beer drinking deep voiced

maybe that's your problem, women don't necessarily expect this breed of guy to be the most sensitive. Try playing down the jock aspect. :idea:
 
maybe that's your problem, women don't necessarily expect this breed of guy to be the most sensitive. Try playing down the jock aspect. :idea:

lol it's not like he's trying to pick someone up at the local pub. If a patient is uncomfortable with him, maybe it's the patient with the issue. If someone refuses exams, just let the intern know, record it in the chart, and move on to the next case. Trying to change who you are never works.
 
*PC patrol*

So, I'm a homo and yet most people don't know (call it "straight-acting" or whatever you want). But, I didn't have much trouble getting in on deliveries and pelvics (mostly because I'm kind of shy, but sincere and sensitive, enough so that the preceptors pretty much forced me to jump in with both hands).

But, seriously - WTF is up with all the homophobia in this thread? (I don't really expect an answer - just rhetorical)

what do you mean "all". It's just those same jerks that disrespect everybody and are around to embarrass themselves and us by association :rolleyes:.
 
Be careful people, don't assume that masculine, sports watching, beer drinking deep voiced guys are always straight.

Oh my god, Chuck Norris is gay! :::awaiting roundhouse kick:::


BUT on the flipside..I got to at least WATCH a pelvic exam today :oops:

That would make me puke about as quick as "fineline" thinking about your home life. j/k.

*PC patrol*

But, seriously - WTF is up with all the homophobia in this thread? (I don't really expect an answer - just rhetorical)

Nobody told you? All you have to do is follow up a quasi-offensive remark with "j/k" and it makes the statement entirely ok. Internet etiquette 101. (e.g. "That's probably why your parents don't love you. j/k.") If you really want to slam it home, add an emoticon after the j/k, and you're completely off the hook.:thumbup:

Seriously, though, I have nothing against gay people.....as long as it's two girls...........j/k, that's equally gross.......j/k :)


Bottom line, whether or not it's fair. Acting "super gay" will likely hurt your eval, and you're better off just missing a few pelvic exams.......
 
Oh my god, Chuck Norris is gay! :::awaiting roundhouse kick:::




That would make me puke about as quick as "fineline" thinking about your home life. j/k.



Nobody told you? All you have to do is follow up a quasi-offensive remark with "j/k" and it makes the statement entirely ok. Internet etiquette 101. (e.g. "That's probably why your parents don't love you. j/k.") If you really want to slam it home, add an emoticon after the j/k, and you're completely off the hook.:thumbup:

Seriously, though, I have nothing against gay people.....as long as it's two girls...........j/k, that's equally gross.......j/k :)


Bottom line, whether or not it's fair. Acting "super gay" will likely hurt your eval, and you're better off just missing a few pelvic exams.......

<sigh> case and point. :rolleyes:
 
I don't think that your sexual orientation matters, all that matters is that you are a male student, period. I'm a married man but I don't say that (or act that way:confused:) to try to do more pelvic exams...I don't think that makes women any more comfortable. I'm on Ob/gyn right now and I get booted from 80% of the rooms, but I'm ok with that. I want to learn as much (if not more than:D) as the next med student but I've discovered that is just how it is.
Oh, and one more thing. The only way that homophobia becomes an issue here is if you make it one.
 
It's just those same jerks that disrespect everybody and are around to embarrass themselves

Remember, everyone, "tolerance" means that you can be intolerant of people who aren't tolerant the way you demand. That's called smarts!
 
I don't think that your sexual orientation matters, all that matters is that you are a male student, period. I'm a married man but I don't say that (or act that way:confused:) to try to do more pelvic exams...I don't think that makes women any more comfortable. I'm on Ob/gyn right now and I get booted from 80% of the rooms, but I'm ok with that. I want to learn as much (if not more than:D) as the next med student but I've discovered that is just how it is.
Oh, and one more thing. The only way that homophobia becomes an issue here is if you make it one.

Two Ridiculous points made here that need to be shouted out.
1) Why in the name of God would your marital status have any bearing whatsoever on a female patient's comfort level?? Umm..I guess its because when a straight guy marries a chick, he loses all interest in anyone but her, till death do them part...yeaaaah right.

2) What do you mean by homophobia is an issue here if I make it one? I did not make homophobic remarks. I only even mentioned that I was gay to illustrate the irony of the whole situation. I guess you would suggest that any bigoted remark made toward anyone, is only an issue "if someone makes it an issue"? umm...?:confused::confused:
 
one bit of advice for ya,

when you walk into the room, don't rub your hands together and chuckle under your breath to yourself.. oh ya, and shave your mustache if you have one, it might say "when I'm not here, I'm wearing a trench-coat and flashing people at the bowling alley."

Guaranteed, you'll be accepted better by your patients and society in general.
 
Look, I'm not intending to start an internet fight here. I clearly didn't get my point across. I'm saying that sexual orientation doesn't change being threatening to your patient anymore than being married. It doesn't matter if you're gay, straight, single or married.
Secondly my comment about being homophobia was not directed at you, there were other posters that started bringing up the issue, I was trying to say just drop it, and not to make it an issue.
 
I'm on my family med rotation and have been having very bad luck at getting any opportunities to do gyn procedures except for the breast exam. Usually I will go and see the patient first, and the discomfort when I walk in the room is pretty obvious. I'm not planning on going into ob/gyn, but I figure I should at least get some experience in it.

Any guys have the same problem with female patients refusing to have them do their pelvic exams (or even be present for them).Any advice or tactics that have worked to make them more comfortable with it? I have just been chalking it up to MS III year being all about not taking anything personally, but I'm starting to get discouraged and want to just avoid any ob/gyn cases altogether. I don't think of myself as a threatening kind of guy, and I look pretty neat when I'm in clinic, so I don't know what I can do differently.

The real kicker, is that I am the gayest gay boy, who has no interest in seeing the female pudenda except to diagnose and fix whatever is wrong down there. I am kinda butch for a gay guy though.. wonder if queening out a bit will make the ladies feel more at ease :confused:

From one gay to another, you should seriously do some soul-searching about why you would ever want to learn this stuff. I went into OB/Gyn with the desperate desire to learn as little as possible, never do a pelvic or pap, etc. You need to seriously re-examine your commitment to gayness!

j/k. that makes the previous paragraph ok.

In all seriousness, it doesn't hurt to talk in a higher voice, but this came naturally for me. If you can help it, it doesn't hurt to subtly come across as gay without being obnoxious about it (i.e. you want to be perceived as a 'Will' not as a 'Jack'). I have to say, I went in with the gynophobic attitude described above but then I realized that it's not that bad, it's just a body part with a few exams for it like any other. I actually admire you for your willingness to want to learn about the va-jay-jays.
 
One thing that will help, especially on L&D, is to make sure the nurse or whoever talks to the patient first knows and likes you. I found my success rate varied drastically depending on who popped the question. Nurses who make it seem like a huge deal and offer an out to the patient "If you don't want them in here that's fine." obviously make things difficult. The reverse is also true, and this whole theme carries over to any setting where someone is talking to the patient first. If both you and the nurse can convey a sense of it not being a big deal the patients have less objection in general. That and sending a self-confident vibe out, as fake as it may be. Good luck!
 
One thing that will help, especially on L&D, is to make sure the nurse or whoever talks to the patient first knows and likes you. I found my success rate varied drastically depending on who popped the question. Nurses who make it seem like a huge deal and offer an out to the patient "If you don't want them in here that's fine." obviously make things difficult. The reverse is also true, and this whole theme carries over to any setting where someone is talking to the patient first. If both you and the nurse can convey a sense of it not being a big deal the patients have less objection in general. That and sending a self-confident vibe out, as fake as it may be. Good luck!

Very true.

The fact is, there are a whole lot of things that go into getting or not getting to see and do procedures with OB/Gyn. Strength, sensitivity, confidence, your attending, the nurse - all of them are important. All have to be right to even get your foot in the exam room door. Think of it as training. If you're going to win a 10k marathon, you should train harder than you think you will ever need to. Winning rapport with the OB/Gyn crowd is harder than with the general population. If you get good at winning rapport here, winning rapport anywhere else will be a cakewalk.

I am a man's man in the US Army (I proudly wear the pin on my lapel), but I don't come across too forcefully. I made a huge effort early on to win over the L&D nurses, the surgical nurses/techs, and the nurses in the attending's office (where most of the Gyn exams are performed). My attending is male and has been practicing for 25+ years (which means that a lot of the pt's who are squeamish about male docs have been screened out of the practice). When I approach a pt, I exude as much confidence and competence as I can, without appearing cocky. I make an effort to always be busy and useful and I don't participate in crude humor (L&D wards anyone?). That way, I maintain my good standing with the nurses/techs; and if a pt sees me, I appear competent and professional.

That said, there a times when a pt doesn't want me near them, and there are pt's the attending deems too hystrionic to attempt having me present. Don't take it personally. Reflect on ways you might be able to get in the door next time. If there's nothing you could have done differently... Use the intervening time to study, help the nurses with vitals, or see if the nursery needs someone to hold the neonates while they do lumbar punctures. It's nothing personal.
 
I would recommend that if you are gung-ho about getting to do numerous OB/Gyn procedures, to do your rotation at some sort of underserved site with lower socioeconomic status. In that case, the patients generally don't care who does what.

And like said above, if your resident just acts like normal routine is for you to do it, then the patient is generally not going to give a crap. If they come in with some stupid, "Is it OK if he does the procedure, or would you prefer that I do?" in a sing-songy way, well I guarantee there is about 0% chance that you are doing that procedure. One exception though, I had a patient say, "Oh sure it's OK. I want to go to med school someday, so I understand."
 
Once you get to your OB/Gyn rotation and scrub for gyn surgeries, you will be introduced to the "Exam Under Anesthesia", which is exactly what it sounds like.

So don't worry, you'll get your chance to palpate pelvic anatomy, over and over again, whether you want to or not.

Also, I've found an inverse relationship between age and likelihood of kicking me out of the room (when non-anesthetized). Once they get past 55 years old I've rarely experienced any problems. I think there's a pretty general sense of discomfort to be naked in front of people you don't know of the opposite sex who are your own age that no amount of reassurance and "tactics" will overcome.
 
maybe that's your problem, women don't necessarily expect this breed of guy to be the most sensitive. Try playing down the jock aspect. :idea:

I don't think that's right. For many younger women, it just doesn't matter whether you're gay, straight, married, unmarried, built, wimpy, whatever...

You're a man. Many women just have a strongly conditioned reflex to want to keep a man out of that situation. It has nothing to do with your character, competence, personality, or appearance. The most important thing is not to take it personally.
 
I did OB/GYn at a county hospital with 98% hispanic spanish speakers as my patients. Not once was I thrown out of the room. I dont know that if this was due to a language barrier (I did take permission from them in my lame spanish) or due to the fact that they ddint care. I was routinely refused to do a pelvic (check dilation of cervix etc) right after a doc had done it as they would claim they had pain or cramping. I thought this to be more of a truth then a falsehood to keep me from performing a pelvic. And mind you, I am a big built guy and 100% straight, but the women didnt throw me out. On the other hand, I was routinely chucked out of the room on my FP rotation by men who had a "bump" on their penis. As a man, I understand that most men do have 'size' issues and that may prompt them to throw a student out. Most women, in my little experience, have had had so many pelvics/deliveries done in over a lifetime that one more is of little significance- my 2 cents
Also, as Kazema mentions, age has something do with it. The older you are the less you care. For example how old men walk around fully naked in locker rooms, smiling and talking to each other while all the younger guys (me included) do the towel thingy.
 
You're a man. Many women just have a strongly conditioned reflex to want to keep a man out of that situation.

Ironic, given that their failure to keep a man "out of that situation" is what brought them into us in the first place . . .
 
I don't think that's right. For many younger women, it just doesn't matter whether you're gay, straight, married, unmarried, built, wimpy, whatever...

You're a man. Many women just have a strongly conditioned reflex to want to keep a man out of that situation. It has nothing to do with your character, competence, personality, or appearance. The most important thing is not to take it personally.

for starters I DID NOT put the link to that gay jock ad on my original post. and as a gay man, I clicked on it, and was not impressed with what I saw, but anyway

Why do you think women have this strongly conditioned reflex to keep a man out of that situation? I assumed it was because they were worried the guy was getting off on looking at them and they have no way to control it. Thats why I would think a gay guy would be as unthreatening as another woman would be.

Personally I don't get what the big deal is; I had a doc not to long ago that asked if his young blond female med student be present for my exam, part of which I had to pull down my shorts for, and I didnt mind at all. Although had it been a hot guy I KNEW was gay, yeah I woulda been a little more self conscious...would I have refused his presence though? I doubt it
 
the vagina and breasts are just anatomical parts. Its all about your approach to the patient..most students act either shy or apprehensive. That betrays the professional trust the patient has for you. Act act act...act all professional folks. Don't be too casual in your approach to the patient. It helps:thumbup:
 
Why do you think women have this strongly conditioned reflex to keep a man out of that situation? I assumed it was because they were worried the guy was getting off on looking at them and they have no way to control it. Thats why I would think a gay guy would be as unthreatening as another woman would be...
Actually, I would bet on just the opposite: a lack of body confidence makes a part of it. There's more, too, that I can't even begin to explain. Cultural programming? Feeling of vulnerability? Probably depends a lot on the woman's age and cultural background, and gets lessened by childbirth experience.

Personally I don't get what the big deal is; I had a doc not to long ago that asked if his young blond female med student be present for my exam, part of which I had to pull down my shorts for, and I didnt mind at all. Although had it been a hot guy I KNEW was gay, yeah I woulda been a little more self conscious...would I have refused his presence though? I doubt it
The lack of body confidence, the vulnerability, and the cultural programming are all probably much less of an issue for men.
 
Ok, so I'm not a doctor or pre-med or anything. I'm actually a first year vet student. I was scrolling down on my way to the veterinary threads and saw the title to this thread and couldn't help but clicking and scanning through.

I have to say that I would be extremely uncomfortable having a guy OB/GYN. I have no body confidence issues - I love my body and I'm not ashamed of any little part of it. But I believe that there is one and only one man in this world worthy of "those" parts and that is my husband (and I'm NOT married). And the comment about women who don't want a male OB/GYN as having a "feeling of vulnerability"....umm, excuse me? Have you actually watched an exam? OF COURSE there's a feeling of vulnerability. "Put your feet up....scoot down, more, further down, even further" - I'm falling off the table here! "Now breathe deeply". I don't care HOW MUCH body confidence you have that's an unbelievably vulnerable "position" to be in. So bring on the female docs. And for the guys, I know you'll be great docs...but just not mine.
 
Ok, so I'm not a doctor or pre-med or anything. I'm actually a first year vet student. I was scrolling down on my way to the veterinary threads and saw the title to this thread and couldn't help but clicking and scanning through.

I have to say that I would be extremely uncomfortable having a guy OB/GYN. I have no body confidence issues - I love my body and I'm not ashamed of any little part of it. But I believe that there is one and only one man in this world worthy of "those" parts and that is my husband (and I'm NOT married). And the comment about women who don't want a male OB/GYN as having a "feeling of vulnerability"....umm, excuse me? Have you actually watched an exam? OF COURSE there's a feeling of vulnerability. "Put your feet up....scoot down, more, further down, even further" - I'm falling off the table here! "Now breathe deeply". I don't care HOW MUCH body confidence you have that's an unbelievably vulnerable "position" to be in. So bring on the female docs. And for the guys, I know you'll be great docs...but just not mine.

Thanks for your input and the vote of confidence.

Just to play devil's advocate...what if your OB/gyn were a lesbian? In other words a female...who happened to be interested in other females?
 
If that were somehow made known or clear to me, I would switch doctors. I simply would not be comfortable with that. And just in case someone turns it around and asks "What about a gay man? He's interested in guys not gals", same deal. He's male. He's out.

On a slightly related, yet slightly unrelated note...there's a male OB/GYN running for president, FYI. Vote yes for Dr. No and google "Ron Paul". I'd never have him as my OB/GYN, but I'd vote for him.
 
for starters I DID NOT put the link to that gay jock ad on my original post. and as a gay man, I clicked on it, and was not impressed with what I saw, but anyway

Why do you think women have this strongly conditioned reflex to keep a man out of that situation? I assumed it was because they were worried the guy was getting off on looking at them and they have no way to control it. Thats why I would think a gay guy would be as unthreatening as another woman would be.

Personally I don't get what the big deal is; I had a doc not to long ago that asked if his young blond female med student be present for my exam, part of which I had to pull down my shorts for, and I didnt mind at all. Although had it been a hot guy I KNEW was gay, yeah I woulda been a little more self conscious...would I have refused his presence though? I doubt it


Ugh...ya colba, I'm gonna have to reprise my earlier comment. Feel lucky that you don't have to see all the hoo-hah rot up close and personal. I mean you said you don't want to be an OBG, and unless you want to do family practice, why bother? I guess I (sort of) get that people that want to do clinical medicine (I want to do Path) want/need to see as much as possible, but I don't think you'll need it unless you're FP. In addition, you'll see much more than you ever wanted on OB/Gyn rotation :barf: I'm on family right now and I actively avoid the dreaded well woman exam patients.

I think that this can't be much of a problem, given that you don't want to do OB/Gyn. I mean even if you do want to "fix what is wrong down there" the only thing you have to do is recognize it, then refer to OBG. I don't think anyone else does any active fixing. Again, best of luck. If I could, I'd have traded you places--I did a week of outpatient GYN at the local jail, where patients don't really refuse exams by med students....as much as I wished they would!

The one fun thing for me was all the slides...Trichomonas swimming around is way cool to see. Clue cells are interesting sort of but not as much as the crazy trick slides. LOL
 
I have to say that I would be extremely uncomfortable having a guy OB/GYN. I have no body confidence issues - I love my body and I'm not ashamed of any little part of it. But I believe that there is one and only one man in this world worthy of "those" parts and that is my husband (and I'm NOT married).

If that were somehow made known or clear to me, I would switch doctors. I simply would not be comfortable with that. And just in case someone turns it around and asks "What about a gay man? He's interested in guys not gals", same deal. He's male. He's out.

Patients like you kind of scare me. I'm a straight female, but it still scares me.

It's your perogative (obviously) - but I just want to reassure everyone else that, no matter who your OB/gyn is, he/she is NOT thinking about you in any kind of romantic/sexual sense.

Once it's your turn at the other end of the table, you'll know what I mean. He's seen hundreds of other women, you're not going to be any different or special. (Unless you have some kind of rare gynecological disease.)

Ugh...ya colba, I'm gonna have to reprise my earlier comment. Feel lucky that you don't have to see all the hoo-hah rot up close and personal. I mean you said you don't want to be an OBG, and unless you want to do family practice, why bother? I guess I (sort of) get that people that want to do clinical medicine (I want to do Path) want/need to see as much as possible, but I don't think you'll need it unless you're FP. In addition, you'll see much more than you ever wanted on OB/Gyn rotation :barf: I'm on family right now and I actively avoid the dreaded well woman exam patients.

I think that this can't be much of a problem, given that you don't want to do OB/Gyn. I mean even if you do want to "fix what is wrong down there" the only thing you have to do is recognize it, then refer to OBG. I don't think anyone else does any active fixing.

If you're not competent at the cervical/pelvic exam, how competent will you be at recognizing anything that is wrong "down there"? I have no intention of being an ophthalmologist, but I still took the time to learn how to use the ophthalmoscope well - because I want to be able to recognize ocular pathology if I were to see it in an outpatient clinic.

Maybe you're right and path is different - which makes me wonder. Do you think that pathologists should have to go through med school, or would a separate track be okay? (I'm not asking you to be mean or to trap you, but I've genuinely wondered this.)
 
I'm on my family med rotation and have been having very bad luck at getting any opportunities to do gyn procedures except for the breast exam. Usually I will go and see the patient first, and the discomfort when I walk in the room is pretty obvious. I'm not planning on going into ob/gyn, but I figure I should at least get some experience in it.

Any guys have the same problem with female patients refusing to have them do their pelvic exams (or even be present for them).Any advice or tactics that have worked to make them more comfortable with it?

A common problem that I've been having. Forget paps - a not insignificant percentage of female patients don't seem to want a male med student in the room even if they aren't going to disrobe and are there to talk about something completely unrelated to gyn...
 
Patients like you kind of scare me. I'm a straight female, but it still scares me.

It's your perogative (obviously) - but I just want to reassure everyone else that, no matter who your OB/gyn is, he/she is NOT thinking about you in any kind of romantic/sexual sense.

Once it's your turn at the other end of the table, you'll know what I mean. He's seen hundreds of other women, you're not going to be any different or special. (Unless you have some kind of rare gynecological disease.)

Why does that "scare" you? That I've thought it through and I have a cohesive reasoning why I wouldn't want a male gyn? I don't CARE that he's not looking from a romantic/sexual sense, he's male. He's not going there. I mean, come on, people decide against particular doctors because "I don't like the way he talked", "she seemed impersonal" or other wishy-washy reasons. As a patient, I would be uncomfortable having a person as my doctor (of any sort) if he/she was afraid of my feelings and opinions and beliefs. Seems like that person cares only about the disease and not the person and I wouldn't want that quality in my doctor either, male or female.

And, I'll never be at the other end of the table....I'm a critter fixer. :)
 
Why does that "scare" you? That I've thought it through and I have a cohesive reasoning why I wouldn't want a male gyn? I don't CARE that he's not looking from a romantic/sexual sense, he's male. He's not going there. I mean, come on, people decide against particular doctors because "I don't like the way he talked", "she seemed impersonal" or other wishy-washy reasons. As a patient, I would be uncomfortable having a person as my doctor (of any sort) if he/she was afraid of my feelings and opinions and beliefs. Seems like that person cares only about the disease and not the person and I wouldn't want that quality in my doctor either, male or female.

And, I'll never be at the other end of the table....I'm a critter fixer. :)

Well, a) it doesn't really seem like you've thought it through logically. It seems more like an emotional, knee-jerk response of "He's a guy and I don't want him to look at it!"

More importantly, though, b) It irks me to think that I can be a great, conscientious student, who takes the time to get to know my patients, and really tries hard to have their best interests in mind, and works to take their concerns seriously - and NONE of it will make any difference. Just because of my gender, or because of my race, or because of my sexual orientation, or because of the way I talk.

In other words, an accident of nature will matter more to you than the actual work that I've done into optimizing the medical care that YOU will receive.

It's enough to make me want to give up and not even try.

This is why I hated those "cultural sensitivity" classes, because they all seemed to boil down to "Your inner-city, underserved patients won't trust you just because you're not black." It made me want to scream at the lecturer, "Then why did you idiots admit me to your med school then?!?" It then annoyed me even more when I found out that this wasn't actually true most of the time.

As you're a vet student, I suppose none of this will make sense to you. Oh well, I tried.
 
Well, a) it doesn't really seem like you've thought it through logically. It seems more like an emotional, knee-jerk response of "He's a guy and I don't want him to look at it!"

If you read my initial post, that's not at all what I said. Yes, when I was younger and first started going to the gyn I would have said "ew, he's a guy and he can't see it." But as I have grown older and I look forward to marriage soon I have realized the deeper reasoning behind that. Yes, it is because he's a guy. But it is because he's a guy and he's NOT MY HUSBAND. Like it or not, agree with me or not, but I believe that only my husband has the right to my body, and that is a little bit more than a knee-jerk reaction.

More importantly, though, b) It irks me to think that I can be a great, conscientious student, who takes the time to get to know my patients, and really tries hard to have their best interests in mind, and works to take their concerns seriously - and NONE of it will make any difference. Just because of my gender, or because of my race, or because of my sexual orientation, or because of the way I talk.

You say you really try to get to know your patients, that you try hard to have their best interests in mind...but as long as they're not mine. You have unilaterally dismissed my viewpoints and refused to "take my concerns seriously." And guess what, the whooooolllllleeeee world passes judgment because of gender, race, sexuality, speech, etc. While I may not be a human doctor, I absolutely have to face this as well. I will be mistaken for the vet tech for, I'm guessing, 10 years after I graduate. If I go into large animal medicine, there will be farmers who can barely hide their surprise to see that Dr. Peterson is NOT a man. This whole world is perceptions and preconceived notions and that will NEVER go away, no matter how much "cultural education" people are forced to undergo. You're frustrated you have to work harder in order to get women to trust you as their doctor, I'm frustrated I have to work harder to get farmers to trust me as their cattle doctor. It's life. I accept it. But I also try to see and understand where they're coming from EVEN IF I disagree vehemently. Because I'm their doctor. And that's my job. And I'm never going to be able to help that person or that animal in the best way possible if I close the window immediately because of an emotional judgment or perception.


As you're a vet student, I suppose none of this will make sense to you. Oh well, I tried.

Yea, because I've been sheltered my entire life and never gone outside and had one single interaction with a human being before ever. Of course it makes sense. It's life. Folks have quirks and we have to deal with it in order to sort through and provide first class medicine- for humans or for animals. And sometimes that may mean that for THAT person the best medicine will come from someone else. EVEN if I dislike that. EVEN if I think their reasoning is stupid and childish and silly and egotistical, etc etc etc.

I've gotta get past the owner before I get anywhere near the animal. If that owner won't talk to me, won't relate to me, won't open up to me, I can run all the tests I want, but I will still be missing crucial information. And often times the owner's basic husbandry is just as much a part of the problem as the disease itself. If I correct the disease and not the husbandry, that cat/dog/cow/horse, etc will be right back in front of me in a very short while.

If that farmer isn't comfortable with me as the vet for his livestock simply because I'm female, he's not going to be as open or forthcoming, he's going to be reluctant to call me in the face of an emergency and on and on and on. In that case I ABSOLUTELY think he's a sexist backwards person, but I guarantee you his cattle will be better off with my male colleague. Not because he's a better vet (though he may be) but because of the client's perceptions. And that's just life.

And exactly how is that "scary" again?
 
If you read my initial post, that's not at all what I said. Yes, when I was younger and first started going to the gyn I would have said "ew, he's a guy and he can't see it." But as I have grown older and I look forward to marriage soon I have realized the deeper reasoning behind that. Yes, it is because he's a guy. But it is because he's a guy and he's NOT MY HUSBAND. Like it or not, agree with me or not, but I believe that only my husband has the right to my body, and that is a little bit more than a knee-jerk reaction.

If you have acute appendicitis, will you request a heterosexual female surgeon?

If you needed heart/chest surgery, will you request a heterosexual female CT surgeon?

If you have a bladder problem, will you request a heterosexual female urologist? (Not too many female urologists running around, by the way.)

If only your husband has a "right to your body," then why does a female ob/gyn have a "right to your body?"

If your husband were ill with colon cancer, would you request a heterosexual male surgeon for him as well? I would assume that you would think that only you have a right to his body.

You say you really try to get to know your patients, that you try hard to have their best interests in mind...but as long as they're not mine. You have unilaterally dismissed my viewpoints and refused to "take my concerns seriously."

a) You're not my patient. Come on, it's a forum - it's the one opportunity I get to question these kinds of beliefs. (Fortunately, at my rotation site, there weren't that many patients who refused a male doctor or a male medical student.)

b) I wouldn't dismiss your viewpoints if I found that they were sound. But I have questions about them (see above).

And guess what, the whooooolllllleeeee world passes judgment because of gender, race, sexuality, speech, etc.

Actually, guess what? The whooooolllllleeeee world doesn't pass judgement on these things. Some patients are actually just glad to get a competent doctor, and are perfectly capable of objectively assessing competence outside of such trivial factors like gender, race, sexuality, etc.

We have some very good male ob/gyns at our hospital. Patients raved about them, despite the fact that they were guys.

If that farmer isn't comfortable with me as the vet for his livestock simply because I'm female, he's not going to be as open or forthcoming, he's going to be reluctant to call me in the face of an emergency and on and on and on. In that case I ABSOLUTELY think he's a sexist backwards person, but I guarantee you his cattle will be better off with my male colleague. Not because he's a better vet (though he may be) but because of the client's perceptions. And that's just life.

And exactly how is that "scary" again?

It is scary to me because I feel like those kind of knee-jerk reactions have negatively affected the field of Ob/gyn. I feel like it's negatively affecting medicine, period.

And, at what point do you draw the line? Sure, women don't want a male ob/gyn in the room. But some women refuse to have a black ob/gyn in the room. At what point do you start saying, "I'm sorry, but I can't honor your personal beliefs"? I honestly don't know.

Ob/gyn is a great field. I think that men have an important place in ob/gyn - which some lay people will tell you is not the case. I find it sad that men are getting shoved out of the field in some places. I find it scary when people think of ob/gyn as a field exclusively for women, because I think that it has led to its reputation among other doctors as a minefield of hormones, b***hiness, and mediocre doctors. I don't think that these things accurately characterize OB/gyn, but I cannot tell you how many medical students and residents do. It's sad.

Maybe it is "just life," but I think that it's time for a change.

Finally, I find it scary, because I feel like patient's misconceived, poorly informed notions about the relationship between a male ob/gyn and his female patients are adding to the problems with this field. The knee-jerk reaction that, because it's a pelvic exam, there must be something sexual about it is so wrong I can't even explain it - just suffice it to say that, after my ob/gyn rotation, I've decided to adopt.
 
It doesn't matter if you're gay, straight, single or married.

Well, I think Pemberley and Beagingese have proved my point thoroughly.

But it is because he's a guy and he's NOT MY HUSBAND. Like it or not, agree with me or not, but I believe that only my husband has the right to my body

I'm suprised your even having this coversation. I didn't know they had computers way back in the middle ages :rolleyes:
 
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