Masters During Psychiatry Residency

[borderlineinCle]

Hey Everyone!

I know this question has been asked a few times in other forums, but I haven't found much in the psychiatry forum that directly answers this question. So please forgive me in advance if this is a redundant, ignorant, or silly question.

I'm currently taking a research year between M3 and M4, and I'll be applying for psychiatry when ERAS opens September 2018 for 2019 matriculation. I definitely want research to be a substantial part of my career, though I am now realizing my research deficits and areas that, while I could potentially study on my own, I would benefit from formal education.

It seems like the majority of psychiatry residencies are front-loaded the first two years with all inpatient, while the back two years are mostly outpatient and electives. This is different from IM, for example, where there is still a significant portion of inpatient / ICU time during PGY-2 and PGY-3. In psychiatry residency, is it possible to start an MPH during this time period given the time constraints of residency? Also, are there psychiatry programs that encourage or allow residents to pursue a masters degree during PGY-3 and PGY-4 at the affiliated university and/or school of public health? A few friends who are currently on the interview trail have told me some programs mention it, but I haven't found much on program websites.

Thanks a bunch in advance!

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[When is graduation again?]

Hey Everyone!

I know this question has been asked a few times in other forums, but I haven't found much in the psychiatry forum that directly answers this question. So please forgive me in advance if this is a redundant, ignorant, or silly question.

I'm currently taking a research year between M3 and M4, and I'll be applying for psychiatry when ERAS opens September 2018 for 2019 matriculation. I definitely want research to be a substantial part of my career, though I am now realizing my research deficits and areas that, while I could potentially study on my own, I would benefit from formal education.

It seems like the majority of psychiatry residencies are front-loaded the first two years with all inpatient, while the back two years are mostly outpatient and electives. This is different from IM, for example, where there is still a significant portion of inpatient / ICU time during PGY-2 and PGY-3. In psychiatry residency, is it possible to start an MPH during this time period given the time constraints of residency? Also, are there psychiatry programs that encourage or allow residents to pursue a masters degree during PGY-3 and PGY-4 at the affiliated university and/or school of public health? A few friends who are currently on the interview trail have told me some programs mention it, but I haven't found much on program websites.

Thanks a bunch in advance!

I haven't personally visited any programs this interview season that explicitly mentioned offering an MPH during training, but I do think it's possible. Mt. Sinai offers the ability to pursue masters programs in your 4th year (http://icahn.mssm.edu/education/res...st/msh-psychiatry-residency/clinical-tracks--> under the extracurricular training tab). I'd imagine that it's also possible at other programs with heavy focus on flexibility in 4th year like Yale, Columbia, UNC, and others. Many programs offer the ability to take graduate classes, so even if you can't finish the MPH you can theoritically start it (Cambridge Health Alliance mentioned being able to take classes any any graduate program at Harvard during the 4th year). There are also fellowships that offer an option to pursue an MPH, like UNC's community psych fellowship.

If you're not tied to the idea of pursuing an MPH and just want research training, then there are tons of options for getting on the job training at many research powerhouses. Programs like Yale, Columbia, and UNC touted residents abilities to get involved in research early in their training. I've also seen Research Tracks in Psych Residency programs that start as early as PGY2 with substantially more time dedicated to research as you progress through the years.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

We have had residents use elective time to earn an MPH. How many new doors this opened for them, or how much they learned to be more effective is an other question of course.

 

[borderlineinCle]

I haven't personally visited any programs this interview season that explicitly mentioned offering an MPH during training, but I do think it's possible. Mt. Sinai offers the ability to pursue masters programs in your 4th year [Edited -- i can't post with Links yet]. I'd imagine that it's also possible at other programs with heavy focus on flexibility in 4th year like Yale, Columbia, UNC, and others. Many programs offer the ability to take graduate classes, so even if you can't finish the MPH you can theoritically start it (Cambridge Health Alliance mentioned being able to take classes any any graduate program at Harvard during the 4th year). There are also fellowships that offer an option to pursue an MPH, like UNC's community psych fellowship.

If you're not tied to the idea of pursuing an MPH and just want research training, then there are tons of options for getting on the job training at many research powerhouses. Programs like Yale, Columbia, and UNC touted residents abilities to get involved in research early in their training. I've also seen Research Tracks in Psych Residency programs that start as early as PGY2 with substantially more time dedicated to research as you progress through the years.

Thanks so much for the reply! I'll definitely have to be on the look out for these programs, and I'll also look a bit more in-depth on the websites under sections I may have missed! Never thought about the possibility of fellowship training offering an MPH or some masters degree with it. I'll definitely look more into research tracks, too, for residency. This was helpful, thanks!

 

[borderlineinCle]

We have had residents use elective time to earn an MPH. How many new doors this opened for them, or how much they learned to be more effective is an other question of course.

Ah, that's great to know. I know a lot of the other posts on Masters degrees also discuss 'value' in terms of job placement, etc , but for me it is more about autonomy than value. I've been privileged to work with many physicians on research projects (including in psychiatry). Most of them are 'thought leaders' and have amazing ideas, but really have no clue how to answer their research questions, what databases to look at, how to best formulate an a priori statistical plan, or how to actually do the stats. Medicine and research is a team sport no doubt, and having access to statisticians is wonderful; however, I like having autonomy to start projects and formulate projects without needing to wait weeks to months to get teams on boards to create statistical plans, modify research design, etc. I can do basic stuff (regression, chi-square, anova, some hazard stuff, but not a lot), but would like to get a lot better and learn more. It's a long career ahead!

 

[CingulateGyro]

Dartmouth offers some kind of MPH training if I'm remembering correctly. I believe if is another year. I also met a university of Rochester resident getting her MBA (or MHA?) during residency. My program has several attendings.

Do you have a local MPH program you can take some classes with during your research year? Mine offers a certificate program. You can have an ala cart experience and learn what you are most interested in.

I agree that MPH itself probably won't open a ton of doors (although being health commissioner requires a MD or DO/MPH in some states) but it is about what you do with the degree. The skills I learned in research design and stats really helped me be more self sufficient in regards to research (but perhaps you already have that skill set). I also have learned a lot with program planning that has resulted in extracurricular and leadership experiences. Several of the attendings in my MPH program have started (greatly needed) specialized services in our hospital system which must be very rewarding

 

[CingulateGyro]

Ah, that's great to know. I know a lot of the other posts on Masters degrees also discuss 'value' in terms of job placement, etc , but for me it is more about autonomy than value. I've been privileged to work with many physicians on research projects (including in psychiatry). Most of them are 'thought leaders' and have amazing ideas, but really have no clue how to answer their research questions, what databases to look at, how to best formulate an a priori statistical plan, or how to actually do the stats. Medicine and research is a team sport no doubt, and having access to statisticians is wonderful; however, I like having autonomy to start projects and formulate projects without needing to wait weeks to months to get teams on boards to create statistical plans, modify research design, etc. I can do basic stuff (regression, chi-square, anova, some hazard stuff, but not a lot), but would like to get a lot better and learn more. It's a long career ahead!

Yes! Great points. I feel much more helpful now that I can help the team make submission deadlines by doing most of the stats myself. I do a lot more exploratory stats too if a research question pops in my head where as before we'd have to pay a statistician.

 

[borderlineinCle]

Dartmouth offers some kind of MPH training if I'm remembering correctly. I believe if is another year. I also met a university of Rochester resident getting her MBA (or MHA?) during residency. My program has several attendings.

Do you have a local MPH program you can take some classes with during your research year? Mine offers a certificate program. You can have an ala cart experience and learn what you are most interested in.

I agree that MPH itself probably won't open a ton of doors (although being health commissioner requires a MD or DO/MPH in some states) but it is about what you do with the degree. The skills I learned in research design and stats really helped me be more self sufficient in regards to research (but perhaps you already have that skill set). I also have learned a lot with program planning that has resulted in extracurricular and leadership experiences. Each of the attendings in my program have started specialized services in our hospital system.

Thanks for the reply! It seems like this is a possibility in residency, and this is exciting me even more about psychiatry! Unfortunately, I'm on so many different projects right now (as well as running a program) that I can't take any extra classes sadly. And I think you really hit the nail on the head, as it were: self sufficiency for those who want to do research or develop programs!

 

[splik]

Ah, that's great to know. I know a lot of the other posts on Masters degrees also discuss 'value' in terms of job placement, etc , but for me it is more about autonomy than value. I've been privileged to work with many physicians on research projects (including in psychiatry). Most of them are 'thought leaders' and have amazing ideas, but really have no clue how to answer their research questions, what databases to look at, how to best formulate an a priori statistical plan, or how to actually do the stats. Medicine and research is a team sport no doubt, and having access to statisticians is wonderful; however, I like having autonomy to start projects and formulate projects without needing to wait weeks to months to get teams on boards to create statistical plans, modify research design, etc. I can do basic stuff (regression, chi-square, anova, some hazard stuff, but not a lot), but would like to get a lot better and learn more. It's a long career ahead!

In which case you would be better off doing a research fellowship after residency that has an in-built MPH. that way it will also be fully funded and you will receive a stipend (i.e. a fellow's salary) to spend your year full-time doing an MPH. Unless you are actually working on specific research projects at the time to which you can apply your skills and tailor your classes to you won't get the most out of your MPH and will just have a diploma of questionable value.

also bear in mind that there may also be certificate programs in clinical research that may be more manageable, accessible and relevant to your goals. an MPH is a more broad based training.

 

[borderlineinCle]

In which case you would be better off doing a research fellowship after residency that has an in-built MPH. that way it will also be fully funded and you will receive a stipend (i.e. a fellow's salary) to spend your year full-time doing an MPH. Unless you are actually working on specific research projects at the time to which you can apply your skills and tailor your classes to you won't get the most out of your MPH and will just have a diploma of questionable value.

also bear in mind that there may also be certificate programs in clinical research that may be more manageable, accessible and relevant to your goals. an MPH is a more broad based training.

Thanks for the reply! I definitely need to research a bit more on fellowships that incorporate an MPH. For example, I don't see many psychiatrists doing preventive medicine fellowships (except at Johns Hopkins, I think there was one or two over the last 2-3 years). I'll also have to check out the certificate programs, too.

 

[splik]

Thanks for the reply! I definitely need to research a bit more on fellowships that incorporate an MPH. For example, I don't see many psychiatrists doing preventive medicine fellowships (except at Johns Hopkins, I think there was one or two over the last 2-3 years). I'll also have to check out the certificate programs, too.

well i dont think doing a preventive medicine residency would be the way to go if you are more interested in research. there are fellowships in things like global mental health, primary care psychiatry, psychiatric epidemiology etc.

 

[CingulateGyro]

also bear in mind that there may also be certificate programs in clinical research that may be more manageable, accessible and relevant to your goals. an MPH is a more broad based training.

I would agree with this. I would imagine sitting in on environmental health class (an MPH requirement) would be painful as a resident who has notes to finish at home... (unless this is a side interest of yours!)

 

[SmallBird]

Ah, that's great to know. I know a lot of the other posts on Masters degrees also discuss 'value' in terms of job placement, etc , but for me it is more about autonomy than value. I've been privileged to work with many physicians on research projects (including in psychiatry). Most of them are 'thought leaders' and have amazing ideas, but really have no clue how to answer their research questions, what databases to look at, how to best formulate an a priori statistical plan, or how to actually do the stats. Medicine and research is a team sport no doubt, and having access to statisticians is wonderful; however, I like having autonomy to start projects and formulate projects without needing to wait weeks to months to get teams on boards to create statistical plans, modify research design, etc. I can do basic stuff (regression, chi-square, anova, some hazard stuff, but not a lot), but would like to get a lot better and learn more. It's a long career ahead!

I think this is most efficiently learned by stumbling your way through your first one or two projects. In my experience of helping people write their first paper, the advantage of having done an MPH is relatively modest - I got to being an autonomous researcher by first not being an autonomous research and mumbling through my first few papers. It wasn't fun, but definitely took less time than a masters degree. Research feels really messy when you start and there is this fantasy that for some people it doesn't feel that way, as if everything is very clear in their heads. In truth, it just stays messy and people get better at knowing how to navigate the mess.

 

[CingulateGyro]

I think this is most efficiently learned by stumbling your way through your first one or two projects. In my experience of helping people write their first paper, the advantage of having done an MPH is relatively modest - I got to being an autonomous researcher by first not being an autonomous research and mumbling through my first few papers. It wasn't fun, but definitely took less time than a masters degree. Research feels really messy when you start and there is this fantasy that for some people it doesn't feel that way, as if everything is very clear in their heads. In truth, it just stays messy and people get better at knowing how to navigate the mess.

True. It is very person dependent. I was a project lead on research projects before my MPH but I wanted the structure provided by a formal statistics courses to become effecient. I did not take any prior stats coursework in college and wasn't motivated to teach myself stats years 2-3 of med school. Someone with a stronger background than me would not need to do this most likely. There are more efficient ways to become a researcher so you really have to love the whole MPH package

 

[borderlineinCle]

just an update: looks like public psychiatry fellowships often allow students to do the mph paid for -- it's like preventive medicine fellowships but for psychiatry, for those looking in the future

 

[kagman]

What does a MS in Clinical research offer that a MPH doesn’t and vice versa, if interested in pursuing a future research career ?
And how about pursuing a T32 grant or any of the other grants pre residency or post residency? Can someone explain what the differences are ?

I am interested in research too, either during or post residency.


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