Masters in Clinical Mental Health Counseling

[deleted896822]

Hello. So here's a preface to my question:
I, personally, am not interested in pursuing a degree in psychology as I am a pre-med student that, at this time, is accepted to a DO school and I am actually here to gain some insight for my significant other.
My girlfriend will probably end up moving with me for school and is concerned with pursuing a PhD as her end goal. As of now, the college local to the DO school offers a masters in clinical mental health counseling. She is interested in clinical psych., developmental psych., or counseling psych. PhD programs, which she will pursue once I am finished with school and we are able to move around.
Obviously, many PhD programs are interested in research experience, which she does not have at this time (she is graduating in a month or so). My question is, can she participate in research as a clinical mental health counselor through a a practice or facility that participates in such or is this something that is not practical? The alternative is a general psych. masters near where we live now, which would put us >4 hrs away from each other, which is obviously not optimal.
Is it possible for her to be successful in pursuing a PhD after completing a masters in clinical mental health counseling and practicing for a few years? Would an online masters be useful at all?

I apologize for any ignorance in the process and hope that you guys can provide some insight into what the optimal solution is.
Thanks

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[R. Matey]

Does she have psychology coursework?

 

[deleted896822]

Does she have psychology coursework?

Yes that’s what her major is


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[deleted343839]

Hello. So here's a preface to my question:
I, personally, am not interested in pursuing a degree in psychology as I am a pre-med student that, at this time, is accepted to a DO school and I am actually here to gain some insight for my significant other.
My girlfriend will probably end up moving with me for school and is concerned with pursuing a PhD as her end goal. As of now, the college local to the DO school offers a masters in clinical mental health counseling. She is interested in clinical psych., developmental psych., or counseling psych. PhD programs, which she will pursue once I am finished with school and we are able to move around.
Obviously, many PhD programs are interested in research experience, which she does not have at this time (she is graduating in a month or so). My question is, can she participate in research as a clinical mental health counselor through a a practice or facility that participates in such or is this something that is not practical? The alternative is a general psych. masters near where we live now, which would put us >4 hrs away from each other, which is obviously not optimal.
Is it possible for her to be successful in pursuing a PhD after completing a masters in clinical mental health counseling and practicing for a few years? Would an online masters be useful at all?

I apologize for any ignorance in the process and hope that you guys can provide some insight into what the optimal solution is.
Thanks

You don't need a master's degree to be admitted to the majority of PhD programs in psychology if you already have an undergraduate degree in psychology. Sometimes people choose a research-oriented master's program (eg, in experimental psychology) to make up for weaknesses in their academic record, or if they are new to the field. A clinical master's degree will give you a backup option that enables you to practice if you don't get into a PhD program, but admissions committees will not view it as favorably as a more academic degree.

If your girlfriend already has an undergraduate degree in psychology, a better route would be to seek employment as a research assistant or coordinator or something like that. Gaining experience, preferably leading to research presentations or publications, would be a great way to spend a few years before applying to PhD programs, and in fact that is a comment trajectory for doctoral students.

 

[deleted896822]

You don't need a master's degree to be admitted to the majority of PhD programs in psychology if you already have an undergraduate degree in psychology. Sometimes people choose a research-oriented master's program (eg, in experimental psychology) to make up for weaknesses in their academic record, or if they are new to the field. A clinical master's degree will give you a backup option that enables you to practice if you don't get into a PhD program, but admissions committees will not view it as favorably as a more academic degree.

If your girlfriend already has an undergraduate degree in psychology, a better route would be to seek employment as a research assistant or coordinator or something like that. Gaining experience, preferably leading to research presentations or publications, would be a great way to spend a few years before applying to PhD programs, and in fact that is a comment trajectory for doctoral students.

The masters plan is the result of there not being a PhD program where I will be at school; she also wants it to get more research experience before applying for a PhD.
My main question is, if she does the masters of clinical mental health counseling, can she get research experience through some route in counseling and contribute to papers? Would it be a problem to go from counseling to a PhD after a few years?
This would also give us an income when I won’t be able to provide one.


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[deleted896822]

She was unable to get research as an undergrad because professors often want their whole lab to be paid and she doesn’t have any funding of her own; many also don’t want to utilize credits for working in a lab


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[R. Matey]

The masters plan is the result of there not being a PhD program where I will be at school; she also wants it to get more research experience before applying for a PhD.
My main question is, if she does the masters of clinical mental health counseling, can she get research experience through some route in counseling and contribute to papers? Would it be a problem to go from counseling to a PhD after a few years?
This would also give us an income when I won’t be able to provide one.


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The direct answer to this question is generally no. A mental health counseling master’s program prepares you to be a clinician. It gives you a slight upper hand in SOME PhD counseling psychology PhD programs that direct admit people with a master’s degree, but it does absolutely nothing to prepare you for a research career. I second what @MamaPhD said and also offer that I did work in a lab with a counseling master’s degree. All it did was make me slightly older than the other RAs.


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[deleted896822]

She would want to do a counseling psych PhD so that works out to some degree


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[MAClinician]

She would want to do a counseling psych PhD so that works out to some degree


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What people are telling you is that research experience counts more than having a clinical mental health counseling degree when applying for doctoral level programs. She is unlikely to get the type of research experience in the masters program. She could volunteer in a lab near your medical school or apply for RA positions. No sense in going the doctorate route if she can’t tolerate and engage in the research aspect.

 

[deleted896822]

She does want to do research but won’t be applying directly following the masters; she will be working until I finish residency at which point we will move for her PhD


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[foreverbull]

To address your point about research en route to master’s degree on the side, very few clinics engage in research, so this is highly unlikely for her to find independent research at a clinic she has a practicum at (practicum=clinical graduate training that is required but unpaid). Your SO will not be paid for at least 2-3 years while attaining the master’s degree unless it’s part time work (then add another year or two of low paid work while your SO is attaining hours for state licensure to practice), which is unlikely to keep either of you afloat financially.

I notice you mention online degree—this will absolutely not help getting into PhD programs at all, and in fact is likely to be a red flag to doctoral programs. It may have the opposite effect as intended because online programs are not respected in our field due to poor standards of training and high acceptance rates.

Even if your SO is pursuing a counseling psychology PHD, research is still valued more and is necessary. I would suggest seeking volunteer or paid research for a year or two instead of a master’s degree (with a poster presentation or authorship on a publication), then doing paid work at the bachelor’s level with the psychology degree (psychometrist, mental health tech at a treatment facility, crisis hotline worker, etc.—which gives a taste of clinical work). And a definite no to an online degree, if that’s being considered.

I do not see any advantage to a clinical master’s degree unless your SO planned to stop there and practice without the PhD route, because research experience is valued more than clinical practice regardless of program.

 

[R. Matey]

She does want to do research but won’t be applying directly following the masters; she will be working until I finish residency at which point we will move for her PhD


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I'll also offer that mental health counseling isn't exactly high paying either. You can probably expect a salary in the low 30s post-graduation, which is comparable to what she'd make as an RA. I did the M.A. counseling to Ph.D. counseling psych route and I wouldn't recommend going this way. I worked like a dog for a few years between my master's and Ph.D. to pay off the debt from the master's program and also gain enough research experience to be competitive for a Ph.D. program.

 

[deleted343839]

My main question is, if she does the masters of clinical mental health counseling, can she get research experience through some route in counseling and contribute to papers?

She doesn't need it. Seriously. There are not many research positions she would qualify for with a clinical master's degree that she wouldn't already qualify for with an undergraduate psychology degree. Perhaps others have answered this question, but the point is that she can get research experience without a master's degree, so she may as well start applying for RA/research coordinator positions now to save time and money.

Would it be a problem to go from counseling to a PhD after a few years?

Not necessarily, but it probably won't help either. Reading between the lines, it sounds like your girlfriend really likes the idea of a master's degree, but what I and others are trying to explain to you is that this plan isn't likely to improve her chance of admission to a PhD program. If she starts working in a research setting, she will start gaining valuable experience that will matter for PhD program applications, she will earn a regular paycheck, and she won't incur debt. That checks all the boxes, does it not?

 

[deleted896822]

She doesn't need it. Seriously. There are not many research positions she would qualify for with a clinical master's degree that she wouldn't already qualify for with an undergraduate psychology degree. Perhaps others have answered this question, but the point is that she can get research experience without a master's degree, so she may as well start applying for RA/research coordinator positions now to save time and money.



Not necessarily, but it probably won't help either. Reading between the lines, it sounds like your girlfriend really likes the idea of a master's degree, but what I and others are trying to explain to you is that this plan isn't likely to improve her chance of admission to a PhD program. If she starts working in a research setting, she will start gaining valuable experience that will matter for PhD program applications, she will earn a regular paycheck, and she won't incur debt. That checks all the boxes, does it not?

Sort of; it’s nuanced of course. She would love to start a PhD program right out but we agreed that a masters is probably the best option starting out because it’s possible that following the didactic years that we would have to move for my rotations and possibly again for residency. We figure that getting the masters would give her a leg up at getting a paying job for the 4-5 years of instability location wise.


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[foreverbull]

Sort of; it’s nuanced of course. She would love to start a PhD program right out but we agreed that a masters is probably the best option starting out because it’s possible that following the didactic years that we would have to move for my rotations and possibly again for residency. We figure that getting the masters would give her a leg up at getting a paying job for the 4-5 years of instability location wise.


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Moving complicates it even more. As I mentioned, it will take her 3-4 years to become licensed and make full salary as a licensed mental health professional after starting a master's program, and the starting salary isn't great for early career therapists.

If you both move to another state, that creates a huge problem when it comes to licensing, because each state has its own licensure rules for mental health therapists and a master's degree in counseling has no reciprocity with other states, which means no guarantees that she can practice right away without taking additional courses, or getting more supervised hours in another state, or sending syllabi and letters of verification from old supervisors, etc. It's a huge headache to switch states after licensure. And moving before licensure would be even harder than that; I'm not sure how that would work or if it could work at all. A master's in clinical SW has reciprocity state to state, but won't help with getting into a PhD program as much as research would, and research wouldn't require a new license in every state, nor would jobs at the bachelor's level.

This isn't even touching on possible debt from a master's that may or may not help get into a doctoral program several years down the road.

 

[MAClinician]

Maybe your SO should create her own account and get information on her own. She can start by reading this:
http://mitch.web.unc.edu/files/2017/02/MitchGradSchoolAdvice.pdf
Several people, with more experience than you or her, have repeatedly told you that a masters degree may not be the best route if the ultimate goal is PhD. If research is something she wants to be involved in, she can start by learning about the differences in degree types and what is needed to gain admission to graduate programs. Good luck.

 

[deleted896822]

Maybe your SO should create her own account and get information on her own. She can start by reading this:
http://mitch.web.unc.edu/files/2017/02/MitchGradSchoolAdvice.pdf
Several people, with more experience than you or her, have repeatedly told you that a masters degree may not be the best route if the ultimate goal is PhD. If research is something she wants to be involved in, she can start by learning about the differences in degree types and what is needed to gain admission to graduate programs. Good luck.

Right; and that may be the case. She’s aware of most of this information and I think that I probably didn’t give enough information.
The reason the masters is emphasized is because as far as we know it, there isn’t a university with those facilities or programs within a reasonable distance so it may not be an option, at least while we are there.
Following school and rotations there’s a decent chance that residency will be somewhere in a city with associated schools with such programs but I won’t know that starting out. The masters would give her somewhere to start for the potential 4-5 years without access to those programs.
Assuming I’m accepted to one of the other schools I interviewed at (fingers crossed) most of this becomes less relevant as there are larger associated schools with the programs that would best prepare her for a PhD shortly after.

I understand that it’s not the best route but it may be one of the only routes.
She didn’t have an account initially and asked me to post here asking; she does now and can chime in if she wishes.


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[PsychB]

Hi, girlfriend here. I've actually been accepted to a general psychology master program designed to give me time to improve my GRE score and get more research experience. As I realize I don't need to pursue a master's degree before a Ph.D. program, I felt this was my all around best option as I'll continue my psychology education while getting more research experience. There is potential for me to get an assistantship through this program as well. The issue is this program is nowhere near where my boyfriend is currently accepted, so he just wanted more information regarding other programs and that enhancing my chances of getting into a Ph.D. program later and potential to bring in some income.

Thank you for the information; it's greatly appreciated. We have much to consider but will ultimately try to make the best decision possible for both of our career goals.

 

[R. Matey]

Hi, girlfriend here. I've actually been accepted to a general psychology master program designed to give me time to improve my GRE score and get more research experience. As I realize I don't need to pursue a master's degree before a Ph.D. program, I felt this was my all around best option as I'll continue my psychology education while getting more research experience. There is potential for me to get an assistantship through this program as well. The issue is this program is nowhere near where my boyfriend is currently accepted, so he just wanted more information regarding other programs and that enhancing my chances of getting into a Ph.D. program later and potential to bring in some income.

Thank you for the information; it's greatly appreciated. We have much to consider but will ultimately try to make the best decision possible for both of our career goals.

Do yourself a favor and purchase a copy of insider's guide in addition to reading comments on this forum. It can give you a sense of what Ph.D. programs are looking for in a candidate. As I mentioned here and other places, I went M.A. counseling-LPC/Research Lab-Ph.D. counseling psych route and it's long and not the best way to get there.

 

[deleted343839]

As I realize I don't need to pursue a master's degree before a Ph.D. program, I felt this was my all around best option as I'll continue my psychology education while getting more research experience.

Check out this web site as well: Clinical Psych Grad School

A paid research position is often advantageous because you have more of an opportunity to build a long-term relationship with a PI and get your name on more research products... but it appears you've made up your mind. Best of luck.

 

[PsychB]

This decision was made in advance to this post as my boyfriend was trying to consider other options. I'm open to other options but wanted to provide further information on what actions have been taken up until this point. I've attended a few graduate school talks through my university and discussed options with the graduate coordinator, a clinical psychologist, of the program I've been accepted. I realize everyone has their own insight and experience on this process.

 

[R. Matey]

This decision was made in advance to this post as my boyfriend was trying to consider other options. I'm open to other options but wanted to provide further information on what actions have been taken up until this point. I've attended a few graduate school talks through my university and discussed options with the graduate coordinator, a clinical psychologist, of the program I've been accepted. I realize everyone has their own insight and experience on this process.

So you’re attending the general psych or the clinical mental health counseling program? I’m confused.


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[deleted896822]

So you’re attending the general psych or the clinical mental health counseling program? I’m confused.


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She’s accepted into a the general psych. Program but it is near the school that I am least likely to be accepted to. The program we’re referring to is near the school I am accepted to


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[PsychB]

My boyfriend was interested in how conducive a clinical mental health counseling program would be for me to get into a Ph.D. program. I have applied a few months ago to a general psychology program and have recently found out I've been accepted. Ultimately, we just wanted to consider our options as we have both been accepted to programs in different states, which certainly isn't the ideal situation for our relationship. I apologize for the confusion and hope that provided some clarification.

 

[R. Matey]

My boyfriend was interested in how conducive a clinical mental health counseling program would be for me to get into a Ph.D. program. I have applied a few months ago to a general psychology program and have recently found out I've been accepted. Ultimately, we just wanted to consider our options as we have both been accepted to programs in different states, which certainly isn't the ideal situation for our relationship. I apologize for the confusion and hope that provided some clarification.

Gotcha. Yeah, the general psych is probably the better option IMO but long distance sucks so I get it. It's not popular advice to give on this forum, but it remains objectively true that there are Ph.D. programs in counseling psychology that assume a master's degree in counseling upon entry. This is because master's programs in counseling and Ph.D. programs in counseling psychology are housed in the same department and taught by the same faculty. This is becoming less common because of CACREP accreditation moving to require a certain kind of doctoral degree to teach in master's level counseling programs. APA and Division 17 are working on a response to this, but I won't bore you with the details. The take home message is that they do exist. If you actually purchase a copy of Insider's guide, you will find that the back of the book has statistics about student characteristics that are typically admitted by a given program. You will find that some funded Ph.D. programs in counseling psychology at good schools assume a master's degree upon entry.

The downside to going this direction is that most M.A. mental health counseling programs are unfunded requiring you to incur some debt in order to attend. After you finish your program, your pay will be abysmal and you may not even be able to support you the both of you without subsidizing with another source of income. It will also do nothing for your research career. After I earned my counseling degree, I had to work a full time job plus a second part time job in a lab in order to gain experience and pay off my debt from my counseling degree. It was awful and I wouldn't recommend that life to my worst enemy. That being said, I did eventually end up in a fully funded Ph.D. program, but I gather that my experience is the exception rather than the norm. You also should consider that banking on the kind of program that I am talking about will limit your movements drastically as there are an equal amount of counseling psychology doctoral programs who don't give a care in the world on whether you completed a counseling master's. In these types of programs, the general advice remains true, that it might even be seen as a liability.