Masters in Counseling en route to Counseling PhD

[audchik]

In thinking about the fact that I am not yet qualified to get into a funded program for a PhD in Clinical or Counseling, I am considering getting a masters first.

The two options I am considering are a MS in Counselor Education (leading to LPCC licensure) or a MA in Psychology (emphasis on doctoral preparation). One is clearly more focused on applied practice, while the other is focused more on research and research preparation. The type of PhD program I want to go to is one like UCSB's combined counseling/school/clinical PhD program. Although research is implemented, it seems less emphasized than other clinical programs.

Which masters program would make me a more competitive applicant? Thoughts?

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[PsychMode]

In thinking about the fact that I am not yet qualified to get into a funded program for a PhD in Clinical or Counseling, I am considering getting a masters first.

The two options I am considering are a MS in Counselor Education (leading to LPCC licensure) or a MA in Psychology (emphasis on doctoral preparation). One is clearly more focused on applied practice, while the other is focused more on research and research preparation. The type of PhD program I want to go to is one like UCSB's combined counseling/school/clinical PhD program. Although research is implemented, it seems less emphasized than other clinical programs.

Which masters program would make me a more competitive applicant? Thoughts?

Of course, the doctoral prep MA would provide you with more options when it comes time to apply to doctoral programs, especially if you do a thesis and get research expereince in an area of interest to you. Research experience will not hurt you. However, showing no interest in research can hurt you if you plan to apply to funded PhD programs. I do have some questions...

Can you get good research experience in the licensure-track MS program? Can you opt to do a thesis (in addition to other research experience)? Even if you only do some poster presentations in the masters progam, you would be okay. I did not have published articles when I applied to PhD programs (but I certainly have a decent amount now).

Are you willing to practice as an LPC as a fall-back?

If you are only interested in applied practice after the PhD, are you sure you need a PhD for what you plan to do? The doctoral degree might afford a bit more prestige, but it may not matter if you have a masters degree (e.g., msw) and good applied experience. I think that continued, cost-benefit analysis regarding your decision to get a PhD might be helpful to you, especially given the current state and direction of the mental health field.

Overall, I think you should go for the doctoral prep MA, but do a bit more research into whether you really need to commit time, energy, and money into 5+ years of school for a PhD.

 

[PsychMode]

Nevermind.

In that case, ignore what I typed. Lol

 

[audchik]

In that case, ignore what I typed. Lol

Lol...I thought I was going to yelled at for posting a topic that already has some related threads . But since you responded....

Of course, the doctoral prep MA would provide you with more options when it comes time to apply to doctoral programs, especially if you do a thesis and get research expereince in an area of interest to you. Research experience will not hurt you. However, showing no interest in research can hurt you if you plan to apply to funded PhD programs. I do have some questions...

Can you get good research experience in the licensure-track MS program? Can you opt to do a thesis (in addition to other research experience)? Even if you only do some poster presentations in the masters progam, you would be okay. I did not have published articles when I applied to PhD programs (but I certainly have a decent amount now).

Are you willing to practice as an LPC as a fall-back?

If you are only interested in applied practice after the PhD, are you sure you need a PhD for what you plan to do? The doctoral degree might afford a bit more prestige, but it may not matter if you have a masters degree (e.g., msw) and good applied experience. I think that continued, cost-benefit analysis regarding your decision to get a PhD might be helpful to you, especially given the current state and direction of the mental health field.

Overall, I think you should go for the doctoral prep MA, but do a bit more research into whether you really need to commit time, energy, and money into 5+ years of school for a PhD.

I think that's a good point regarding research...I thought of that too...I contacted a POI in the psych program and asked if I would be able to do some psych research while at the same time working towards the masters in the education department. Not sure if that's even in the realm of possibilities but I thought I would ask.

I think what makes this somewhat hard is that I am not super rigid in terms of what kind of work I want to be doing. I can see myself in private practice while at the same time maybe working for a university or college counseling center. Most things I have read say that counseling centers prefer a PhD...I know you can do it with a masters but it's more difficult. I like working in a school setting but I also like a clinical setting. It seems like getting the doctorate will offer much more in terms of flexibility.

The point you made regarding the LPC as a fallback is definitely a good one. That is one of the main reasons I am considering going that direction instead of a doctoral prep. At least I would be licensed to do counseling in some form or another. Going for the doctoral prep would put me in a situation where my only option would be to continue with the doctorate.

That said, do you think the MS in counseling will be ok if I can add some extra research experiences? I am also wondering if there is any sort of stigma in terms of getting your masters from an education department instead of a psych department?

 

[PsychMode]

Lol...I thought I was going to yelled at for posting a topic that already has some related threads . But since you responded....




I think that's a good point regarding research...I thought of that too...I contacted a POI in the psych program and asked if I would be able to do some psych research while at the same time working towards the masters in the education department. Not sure if that's even in the realm of possibilities but I thought I would ask.

I think what makes this somewhat hard is that I am not super rigid in terms of what kind of work I want to be doing. I can see myself in private practice while at the same time maybe working for a university or college counseling center. Most things I have read say that counseling centers prefer a PhD...I know you can do it with a masters but it's more difficult. I like working in a school setting but I also like a clinical setting. It seems like getting the doctorate will offer much more in terms of flexibility.

The point you made regarding the LPC as a fallback is definitely a good one. That is one of the main reasons I am considering going that direction instead of a doctoral prep. At least I would be licensed to do counseling in some form or another. Going for the doctoral prep would put me in a situation where my only option would be to continue with the doctorate.

That said, do you think the MS in counseling will be ok if I can add some extra research experiences? I am also wondering if there is any sort of stigma in terms of getting your masters from an education department instead of a psych department?

I agree that it would be very difficult to go to a master's program and get research experience in a lab that is not part of your program. I think it is definitely possible, but you would need to look at the time commitments required for the MS (e.g., How many hours a week will you devote to practica/externships? Will you have any any teaching assistantships or other obligations?). Also, how involved could you be in that lab outside of the program? Could you talk to the POI about deliverables (e.g., poster presentations; manuscripts submitted, published, or in prep) that you would like to produce based on experience in his/her lab? This latter point is not essential, but it could help if you are particularly motivated to demonstrate your capacity to PhD admissions committees.

Given your openness and flexibility in the type of career you would want, I agree that a PhD from a funded program might be worth your while.

In regard to getting stuck with a non-licensure-track MA, you might pursue another master's degree (e.g., MSW, MS, MA) that is clinically oriented if you don't get into a PhD program or change your mind about it. That probably does not sound appealing, but it would be more cost-effective than pursuing a PsyD in lieu of a PhD.

And, yes, IMO, I think it would be okay to many programs if you get the MS and good research experience. I think the most competitive programs that are also research-heavy might question your dedication to research. However, I also think there is a way to address it in your applications when you are "packaging" yourself. It could make an interesting story about how you decided you really enjoy research. Logistically, though, it would be more feasible to get research experience in the same program in which you are getting your master's degree. Otherwise, it would take significantly more motivation on your part, a lot more than what would be required if you got a postbac research job.

Getting your master's through an education dept rather than a psychology dept could possibly hurt you. But it would be more important to demonstrate your knowledge/training in psychology and get research experience.

I did an MA in counseling psychology (housed in a psychology department) that was designed to prepare me for applying to PhD programs. I can tell you that nobody, and I mean not a single person, asked me about my clinical/counseling experience when I interviewed for PhD programs. They only seemed to be interested in my research experience. I can also tell you from personal experience that the MS itself will give you little, if any, advantage outside of getting research experience while you do it.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

In thinking about the fact that I am not yet qualified to get into a funded program for a PhD in Clinical or Counseling, I am considering getting a masters first.

The two options I am considering are a MS in Counselor Education (leading to LPCC licensure) or a MA in Psychology (emphasis on doctoral preparation). One is clearly more focused on applied practice, while the other is focused more on research and research preparation. The type of PhD program I want to go to is one like UCSB's combined counseling/school/clinical PhD program. Although research is implemented, it seems less emphasized than other clinical programs.

Which masters program would make me a more competitive applicant? Thoughts?

Can you do a masters that both leads to licensure and has the potential for mentorship in research (and, ideally, a thesis)? That's what I did. They're out there.

I don't remember if I've responded to you before about this. It is, indeed, a common question, and I have responded with this before.

 

[audchik]

Can you do a masters that both leads to licensure and has the potential for mentorship in research (and, ideally, a thesis)? That's what I did. They're out there.

I don't remember if I've responded to you before about this. It is, indeed, a common question, and I have responded with this before.

How did you find programs like that? I am finding that for masters programs a lot of times there is very limited specific information on the program websites. Isn't it also true that even if they program itself doesn't require a thesis you can elect to do one (like some people do in undergrad)?

 

[futureapppsy2]

When you say a PhD in Counseling, do you mean Counseling Psych or Counselor Ed?

 

[audchik]

When you say a PhD in Counseling, do you mean Counseling Psych or Counselor Ed?

Counseling Psych.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

How did you find programs like that? I am finding that for masters programs a lot of times there is very limited specific information on the program websites.

I'm not sure exactly, as it probably depends on the geographic area where you're looking, etc. I know a couple in my area, but I assume you could just look in nearby (or your desired) metropolitan areas and/or major universities for some hints.

Isn't it also true that even if they program itself doesn't require a thesis you can elect to do one (like some people do in undergrad)?

Yes, and you likely won't be required to do a thesis if you are pursuing a licensable degree--for my program, it's either a practicum or a thesis. Just make sure you go to a program with a solid quantitative research environment if you intend to do a thesis. I have a colleague who did a master's at a state university (granted, it was a counseling master's) and she did a thesis, but she also told me about picking her chair--she said her chair initially said that no one ever did a thesis there, "but sure, if you want to do one you can." That is not a desirable situation! You want to work with someone who has published and has their finger on the pulse of some kind of research. Ideally, someone with a lab where you can get research experience in addition to the thesis!

If you want some more info on my program (and others in my town), feel free to PM me.

 

[paramour]

How did you find programs like that? I am finding that for masters programs a lot of times there is very limited specific information on the program websites. Isn't it also true that even if they program itself doesn't require a thesis you can elect to do one (like some people do in undergrad)?

Yes. My master's was in applied psych. No thesis required. I pursued the program's experimental psych track and elected to complete a thesis, although typically if you opted to go into the experimental track I *think* you may have been strongly urged if you weren't required. Apparently only once in a great blue moon did someone ever complete a thesis, regardless of track.

 

[audchik]

I agree that it would be very difficult to go to a master's program and get research experience in a lab that is not part of your program. I think it is definitely possible, but you would need to look at the time commitments required for the MS (e.g., How many hours a week will you devote to practica/externships? Will you have any any teaching assistantships or other obligations?). Also, how involved could you be in that lab outside of the program? Could you talk to the POI about deliverables (e.g., poster presentations; manuscripts submitted, published, or in prep) that you would like to produce based on experience in his/her lab? This latter point is not essential, but it could help if you are particularly motivated to demonstrate your capacity to PhD admissions committees.

Given your openness and flexibility in the type of career you would want, I agree that a PhD from a funded program might be worth your while.

In regard to getting stuck with a non-licensure-track MA, you might pursue another master's degree (e.g., MSW, MS, MA) that is clinically oriented if you don't get into a PhD program or change your mind about it. That probably does not sound appealing, but it would be more cost-effective than pursuing a PsyD in lieu of a PhD.

And, yes, IMO, I think it would be okay to many programs if you get the MS and good research experience. I think the most competitive programs that are also research-heavy might question your dedication to research. However, I also think there is a way to address it in your applications when you are "packaging" yourself. It could make an interesting story about how you decided you really enjoy research. Logistically, though, it would be more feasible to get research experience in the same program in which you are getting your master's degree. Otherwise, it would take significantly more motivation on your part, a lot more than what would be required if you got a postbac research job.

Getting your master's through an education dept rather than a psychology dept could possibly hurt you. But it would be more important to demonstrate your knowledge/training in psychology and get research experience.

I did an MA in counseling psychology (housed in a psychology department) that was designed to prepare me for applying to PhD programs. I can tell you that nobody, and I mean not a single person, asked me about my clinical/counseling experience when I interviewed for PhD programs. They only seemed to be interested in my research experience. I can also tell you from personal experience that the MS itself will give you little, if any, advantage outside of getting research experience while you do it.

Thanks for your input! You have made some good points that I'm definitely going to have to consider. I must say, the fact that clinical/counseling experience does not count for much in this process is really unfortunate for me because that's what I have my experience in. I understand that research is important, but I feel like other experience counts for something as well. To me anyway

 

[audchik]

Yes. My master's was in applied psych. No thesis required. I pursued the program's experimental psych track and elected to complete a thesis, although typically if you opted to go into the experimental track I *think* you may have been strongly urged if you weren't required. Apparently only once in a great blue moon did someone ever complete a thesis, regardless of track.

Sorry, I'm confused - what exactly is your masters in (applied or experimental - in your post it seems like you said both)? Was it a masters that led to licensure? That surprises me that an experimental track didn't require a thesis.

 

[paramour]

Sorry, I'm confused - what exactly is your masters in (applied or experimental - in your post it seems like you said both)? Was it a masters that led to licensure? That surprises me that an experimental track didn't require a thesis.

Degree is a Master of Applied Psychology (not the typical Master of Arts or Master of Science). You applied for different tracks: general, experimental, health, or I/O. So, technically, my degree is in both applied/experimental (i.e., master of applied psychology with an emphasis in experimental psychology).

One could work towards a thesis in any of the tracks, but a thesis was not required for the degree itself (although one had to work toward a project). If you were in the experimental track, it either was required or was strongly recommended? I don't recall if you were at minimum required to complete a master's project and the thesis was "strongly recommended" in its place; or if the thesis was required for the experimental track. It's been a few years, and I knew from day 1 that I intended to complete a thesis, so I didn't bother myself with those details too much.

The degree itself does not lead to licensure in and of itself. One could take some additional coursework (not at our university), self-study, and work with a willing clinician to become a psychological examiner in that state. That would be the extent of practical application (clinically) for the degree there.

Most students in the program elected to go the I/O route because it was more lucrative; the brighter ones in the bunch had some damned good offers before they started their 2nd year. There were a few interested in health psych but not many; usually folks who were already in health care professions interestingly enough (or intended to pursue professions in health care). There were extremely few folks who entered the experimental track and even fewer who ever completed it; mostly folks who were interested in research/academic careers and/or who were interested in continuing to pursue their doctorate afterward.

 

[PsychMode]

I recommend the book, Graduate Study in Psychology, published by the APA. It's a listing of master's level and doctoral programs in all aspects of psychology. It was quite a handy reference.

 

[audchik]

Degree is a Master of Applied Psychology (not the typical Master of Arts or Master of Science). You applied for different tracks: general, experimental, health, or I/O. So, technically, my degree is in both applied/experimental (i.e., master of applied psychology with an emphasis in experimental psychology).

One could work towards a thesis in any of the tracks, but a thesis was not required for the degree itself (although one had to work toward a project). If you were in the experimental track, it either was required or was strongly recommended? I don't recall if you were at minimum required to complete a master's project and the thesis was "strongly recommended" in its place; or if the thesis was required for the experimental track. It's been a few years, and I knew from day 1 that I intended to complete a thesis, so I didn't bother myself with those details too much.

The degree itself does not lead to licensure in and of itself. One could take some additional coursework (not at our university), self-study, and work with a willing clinician to become a psychological examiner in that state. That would be the extent of practical application (clinically) for the degree there.

Most students in the program elected to go the I/O route because it was more lucrative; the brighter ones in the bunch had some damned good offers before they started their 2nd year. There were a few interested in health psych but not many; usually folks who were already in health care professions interestingly enough (or intended to pursue professions in health care). There were extremely few folks who entered the experimental track and even fewer who ever completed it; mostly folks who were interested in research/academic careers and/or who were interested in continuing to pursue their doctorate afterward.

Ah, ok I get it now. I'm not sure what state you're in, but from what I can see, masters programs in California don't have an applied degree unless it's specifically MFT and in that case there's no research included. Seems like you have to do one or the other. It tends to complicate the situation...

 

[audchik]

I recommend the book, Graduate Study in Psychology, published by the APA. It's a listing of master's level and doctoral programs in all aspects of psychology. It was quite a handy reference.

I do have the 2008 version but you're right...it would probaby be good to get the updated version...budgetary changes have really had a large impact on programs these past few years.

 

[wigflip]

Ah, ok I get it now. I'm not sure what state you're in, but from what I can see, masters programs in California don't have an applied degree unless it's specifically MFT and in that case there's no research included. Seems like you have to do one or the other. It tends to complicate the situation...

I've had trouble finding counseling psych MAs in CA as well. It's pretty much all MFT or MSW from what I've seen. Wonder how this will change next year with implementation of the LPC license.

That said, CSUN's MFT program (housed in Ed Psych and Counseling Dept) requires a thesis,
http://www.csun.edu/edpsy/mft.html
and the Psych-Psych Dept's experimental and clinical psych MA seems pretty well regarded (for what it is). Wonder if there might be opportunity there to scootch on over to Psych (for lab opportunities) while doing degree in Ed Psych?
http://www.csun.edu/csbs/departments/psychology/index.html

 

[audchik]

I've had trouble finding counseling psych MAs in CA as well. It's pretty much all MFT or MSW from what I've seen. Wonder how this will change next year with implementation of the LPC license.

That said, CSUN's MFT program (housed in Ed Psych and Counseling Dept) requires a thesis,
http://www.csun.edu/edpsy/mft.html
and the Psych-Psych Dept's experimental and clinical psych MA seems pretty well regarded (for what it is). Wonder if there might be opportunity there to scootch on over to Psych (for lab opportunities) while doing degree in Ed Psych?
http://www.csun.edu/csbs/departments/psychology/index.html

That does look like a good program...unfortunately I'm up here in Northern CA so CSUN is about a 6 hour drive. I like research, but I don't know if I like it that much

The program I am considering does offer the LPCC license and you can choose which specialization (either MFT, school, or career). I am going to look into whether they would let me do a thesis. I don't see why not, but with budgetary issues lately it seems like CSUs won't let you do anything extra - they just want you in and out. Luckily I am getting a little research experience at my job, so if nothing else at least there's that.

 

[wigflip]

That does look like a good program...unfortunately I'm up here in Northern CA so CSUN is about a 6 hour drive. I like research, but I don't know if I like it that much

The program I am considering does offer the LPCC license and you can choose which specialization (either MFT, school, or career). I am going to look into whether they would let me do a thesis. I don't see why not, but with budgetary issues lately it seems like CSUs won't let you do anything extra - they just want you in and out. Luckily I am getting a little research experience at my job, so if nothing else at least there's that.

Yeah, I hear that commute's a bitch!

Wish I lived close to SFSU--they look like they have a slew of interesting programs that other CSUs lack (as you probably know, they, along with San Diego, are the flagship schools in the CSU). I wonder what their counseling program is like.
http://counseling.sfsu.edu/

 

[audchik]

Yeah, I hear that commute's a bitch!

Wish I lived close to SFSU--they look like they have a slew of interesting programs that other CSUs lack (as you probably know, they, along with San Diego, are the flagship schools in the CSU). I wonder what their counseling program is like.
http://counseling.sfsu.edu/

Agreed. I am applying there! I also like that they let you do multiple specializations.
It appears to be much more competitive though than other CSU programs and would be a 1.5 hour commute for me
We'll see. I'm also still toying with the idea getting a PsyD. Eep! Hard decisions...

 

[wigflip]

Agreed. I am applying there! I also like that they let you do multiple specializations.
It appears to be much more competitive though than other CSU programs and would be a 1.5 hour commute for me
We'll see. I'm also still toying with the idea getting a PsyD. Eep! Hard decisions...

Good luck. I'm on the fence about training too.

As someone who's had a long commute like that (not sure if you mean 90 mins one way or round trip?) I can say it's all right at first but can get to be really draining after a while.

Have been dying to ask--I'd love to hear more about your avatar, if you'd be willing to share. Doesn't read so well on my small screen.

 

[audchik]

Good luck. I'm on the fence about training too.

As someone who's had a long commute like that (not sure if you mean 90 mins one way or round trip?) I can say it's all right at first but can get to be really draining after a while.

Have been dying to ask--I'd love to hear more about your avatar, if you'd be willing to share. Doesn't read so well on my small screen.

Are you currently in a program or are you applying this year? I'd be curious to hear about the options you're considering

My avatar is a picture I found on a blog that I follow. It's a buddhist style blog that posts about how loving kindness, mindfulness and compassion can transform the world. I thought it was a really cool representation of compassion.
Here is the link to the full picture:
http://mettarefuge.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/compassion-reaches-out.jpg?w=320&h=320

 

[wigflip]

Are you currently in a program or are you applying this year? I'd be curious to hear about the options you're considering

My avatar is a picture I found on a blog that I follow. It's a buddhist style blog that posts about how loving kindness, mindfulness and compassion can transform the world. I thought it was a really cool representation of compassion.
Here is the link to the full picture:
http://mettarefuge.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/compassion-reaches-out.jpg?w=320&h=320

Cool--thanks for the link and explanation. I've been trying to figure out whether or not the person below was on fire.

I'm in a social science PhD program. Between the time I started and now, the outlook for my discipline and alums from my particular school has gotten very poor; I may continue and finish the degree, but I can't say that doing so would be particularly intelligent behavior given that I'm out of funding and our university is in flux due to budget constraints. People who are far more accomplished that I am are crashing and burning on the academic job market, and I'm not deluded enough to talk myself into believing that adjuncting is more than a temporary stepping stone (a part time job is a poor reward for sinking a decade into training). I'm strongly considering leaving with the MA and transitioning back to psych (my undergrad major). I might apply during next fall's cycle, earlier if I go the masters route (or masters en route to PsyD/PhD route). Am weighing all options carefully right now, as I don't want to make another colossal blunder.

 

[audchik]

I'm in a social science PhD program. Between the time I started and now, the outlook for my discipline and alums from my particular school has gotten very poor; I may continue and finish the degree, but I can't say that doing so would be particularly intelligent behavior given that I'm out of funding and our university is in flux due to budget constraints. People who are far more accomplished that I am are crashing and burning on the academic job market, and I'm not deluded enough to talk myself into believing that adjuncting is more than a temporary stepping stone (a part time job is a poor reward for sinking a decade into training). I'm strongly considering leaving with the MA and transitioning back to psych (my undergrad major). I might apply during next fall's cycle, earlier if I go the masters route (or masters en route to PsyD/PhD route). Am weighing all options carefully right now, as I don't want to make another colossal blunder.

What were your hopes when starting the program? Did you want to go into academia? I'm not familiar with the job market for a social science PhD other than to be a professor. Academia is so competitive, I can see why you are having reservations being that others from your program are having difficulties.
Budget contraints are really a bummer. Especially in California, I have seen programs change *drastically* since the economic downturn. And it's an even scarier world out there in the job market. If you do decide to leave your program, is there a particular reason you want to get the masters degree before you get the doctorate?

 

[wigflip]

What were your hopes when starting the program? Did you want to go into academia? I'm not familiar with the job market for a social science PhD other than to be a professor. Academia is so competitive, I can see why you are having reservations being that others from your program are having difficulties.
Budget contraints are really a bummer. Especially in California, I have seen programs change *drastically* since the economic downturn. And it's an even scarier world out there in the job market. If you do decide to leave your program, is there a particular reason you want to get the masters degree before you get the doctorate?

I'll PM you if you're interested in hearing more. Don't think I can go into much more detail here.

 

[audchik]

I'll PM you if you're interested in hearing more. Don't think I can go into much more detail here.

Understood Yes, please do!