Hey!! I plan on applying to PA school for next year. I already have a Bachelor's degree in biology but I was thinking of doing a one year masters of medical sciences program. Would it help in preparing for PA school? Or should I just focus on getting clinical experience? I have a 4.0 sci GPA but its been a few years since I've been out of undergrad...the mms program couldn't hurt, right?
Masters of Medical Sciences Before PA School
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You would be better off using the time to work on the other aspect of your PA school application that is commonly overlooked by the fresh out of school undergrads....experience.
Go to paramedic school and spend a year or two working with patients. Do something that allows you to get a feel on how to deal with all types of patients. Learn how to make medical decisions. See what "sick" looks like and learn to recognize it. These are the types of things that cannot be taught in book. PA school is very fast paced, any additional skills you have will help.
Having even more sciences sounds like it is a good thing to do, but you will learn the science you need in PA school. Docs get more in depth sciences because they know they will have to do a residency to get the experience to put it in practice. No experience needed prior because it is built in; not so for PA.
This is the path to PA....it is built on solid a solid GPA in the basic medical sciences and experience.
Go to paramedic school and spend a year or two working with patients. Do something that allows you to get a feel on how to deal with all types of patients. Learn how to make medical decisions. See what "sick" looks like and learn to recognize it. These are the types of things that cannot be taught in book. PA school is very fast paced, any additional skills you have will help.
Having even more sciences sounds like it is a good thing to do, but you will learn the science you need in PA school. Docs get more in depth sciences because they know they will have to do a residency to get the experience to put it in practice. No experience needed prior because it is built in; not so for PA.
This is the path to PA....it is built on solid a solid GPA in the basic medical sciences and experience.
With a bio degree and a 4.0 science gpa, you could easily.... easily find a PA program that would let you in without previous health care experience. I wouldn't spend my time getting a paramedic degree when it's no longer a big deal for so many programs to see decent HCE. Some of the knowledge would be very handy to have, but to make that route worthwhile, you'd not only need to become a medic, but function as one for a while to get beyond being a newby. I'm not sure it makes sense to pick up one career just to check a box to get to another. Many paramedics would kill to have a 4.0 to let them break out of paramedicine. That's just my thought. I even encountered programs where I felt like they wouldn't appreciate prior hce.
Well aware....the question was, masters or HCE. I went with HCE...some valid points on paramedic....but still, I would go with HCE, A masters gives him/her nothing for PA.
For example:
The program I will be attending has no real HCE requirement.....but they accepted me (their words) because my experience set me apart. Having some real world experience will set him/her apart from the rest of the zero experience high GPA undergrads.....who are the crux of the applicants and are the crux of the rejections...even in this day and age. A 4.0 doesn't guarantee admittance....having both does.
The average accepted student in my program has a 3.6 and 2 years HCE....again, this is a school that has no HCE requirements. It is a fallacy that HCE doesn't matter.
This isn't even getting into the fact that HCE is a good way to learn fundamental aspects of medicine (mechanics/systems). Not just a stepping stone for admission.
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Look into NP. You'll have more opportunities for leadership and management positions and you'll have a bit more autonomy in your practice than a PA. PA is a good career choice nonetheless.
A 4.0 gpa in hard sciences paves a clear path to becoming a pa with little or no delay. Unless the op attends a direct entry np program, it doesn't make a lot of sense to add time to their journey by 1) going for an NP, 2) be coming a paramedic, RN, RT, or anything else, 3) going to get a medical masters degree. Never in a million years would I pour money into a medical masters for any of the reasons I've seen people give, let alone someone with a 4.0 science gpa with a biology degree. Most people I've heard talk about those were inquiring about how a medical masters degree can save them from poor previous academic performance anyway. Even in that case, it's kind of a crap shoot because if you did poorly in the past, what makes one think they would rock the medical masters hard enough to impress. So yes, since med masters is such a poor choice to me, hce would be better. But even going down a hce path that takes considerable time to achieve under the OPs circumstances is also a time suck, so just answering between hce and med masters and leaving it at that does a disservice. Just apply. I believe that there are schools with low hce standards that still like to see hce, but it's not so common as to be worth it to focus on. I'd rather be practicing as a PA that much sooner and working on paying off the considerable debt that follows PA school. This is coming from someone that is pro HCE, on a path towards an NP, and has considerable HCE myself in separate areas of focus. Fact is that when I was interested in becoming a PA, the one area I wished I had more of wasn't hce, but academic prowess on paper. Good grades are often applicants most glaring weakness. If you have that, then you have the most difficult avenues nailed down pretty well. My grades weren't terrible, but if my grades had been a little better, it would have opened up more doors than racking up more HCE. But the application cycle For this year is almost over. I'd be gearing up to apply when the gates open again sometime in April, I think. And what can it hurt to get an EMT certification in the meantime? But heck not on the medical masters. Those aren't cheap either.
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i bet there are enough brand new PA programs out who are willing to take you. but if desperate for HCE, id rather get an EMT-P or respiratory tech certificate/associate's. faster, good fall back career. I suppose you can use a Master's in Medical Sciences to teach high school or community college anatomy and/or physiology if you dont get into medicine
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lol
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I had a MPH when applying to PA schools, and I had significant HCE. Both attributes were brought up during my interviews and I'm sure helped me get accepted into numerous programs. I was the only one in my program that had a previous Masters degree, but I had several classmates who had more/better HCE than I did. However I had many classmates who's HCE consisted of working 6 months as a CNA in a nursing home.
I think one deciding factor could be what you want to do as a PA. If you want to work in EM, then I would encourage the paramedic route. If you want to work in FP, or hospital specialty setting, then the MMS could be more beneficial. Another, and perhaps even bigger, deciding factor would be what programs you want to apply to. Many of them require little to no HCE anymore, but if you are set on one program, and it does require good HCE, then that's what you need to get.
Good luck. Oh, and by the way, last bit of advice - never listen to advice from a "dude" who says he "is the man". Never a good idea.
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You'll get more schooling as a nurse...to learn nursing. I have a friend in my class that used to be a CC/ER nurse and pointed out that "I used to do that...but had no clue why." He's certainly glad he went this route. PA school teaches the practice of medicine and provides greater depth and a greater breadth of knowledge. Look at the clinical rotation requirements versus the average NP program as an example.
This is false. While today's standard degree for PA programs is a master's degree, there are options for PAs that wish to pursue a doctorate.
This is misleading. While some states allow for independent practice of NPs the number of NPs that actually go this route is the great minority(<1%). Most are involved with physician supervision/collaboration just as PAs are. Additionally, "dependent" may be a more appropriate term for new graduates but those with experience often don't even have backup on site or communicate with their SP unless a second opinion is needed.
Salary surveys consistently show that PAs make larger salaries on average than NPs.
False. As a PA you are able to work in any area of medicine that a physician does and, unlike NPs, can move between them.
That's the benefit to PAs being trained in the medical model and initially learning all areas of medicine as med students do. It allows for a knowledge base to build upon if wanting to change areas of practice.
Either route can be a good way to go and can produce a good healthcare provider but you're either very misinformed or a troll.
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Wrong. Look at EMEDPA who posts here and is pursuing his Ph.D. Or the graduates of the Clinical Doctorate program at Baylor. Or the dual MPAS/Ph.D. program at Wake Forest.
Congratulations Dude, you got one right. The incredibly strong lobbying power of the nursing Mafioso drives the implementation of many laws, of course that doesn't mean these laws make any sense.
That is because your ego prohibits you from understanding that the education/experience that physicians get during med school/residency is vastly superior to anything you will encounter in your NP program. All GOOD mid-level's understand that a residency-trained, board-certified physician should be the leader of the health care team because that is what is best for our patients.
Wrong. You might want to check out the latest ADVANCE salary survey which shows PAs make about $10K a year more than NPs.
Wrong again. There are some specialties which are dominated by NPs (OB/GYN and psych), and some specialties which are dominated by PAs (Surg), but I know PAs in psych, and I know NPs in Surg. The only specialty really locked up by NPs is anesthesia.
Wrong again, although this is slowly changing with the CAQs. The PA curricula teaches general medicine which gives you the ability to focus on any specialty in the field, whereas the NP curricula only teaches a single focus, thus limiting the ability to switch specialties in the field. But even then, when you compare the didactic/clinical hours, most PAs get more hours in any given specialty during their general education than NPs get during their specialty training. Example: I got about 600 hours of clinical EM hours in PA school (plus FP, Surg, Cards, Peds, Geriatrics, OB/GYN, Psych, etc). Many NP programs only require 500 hours total, all in their specialty. That means I got 20% more clinical EM hours than a NP who specialized in EM.
You got this one right too, but you don't seem to understand why this is a bad thing. NP student's can work while going to school because the curricula is a piece of cake compared to PA school, let alone MD school. I worked full time while I was getting my MPH with no problem. No way in hell could I have worked part time, let alone full time, while I was in PA school.
Your N=1 sample is underwhelming and is likely caused by the bias already established in your #2 above (where you mentioned that powerful nursing lobby). Unfortunately a few hospitals are run by nurses who only hire other nurses. But, conversely, there are some hospitals, like the one I work at, who only hire PAs.
Dude – people come to these boards looking for advice before making important life decisions. PLEASE try to get your facts straight before offering advice to anyone. If you want to go the NP route because you can work full time while going to school, or because you want to be a part of that powerful nursing lobby, or because you want to work in a specialty dominated by NPs, then those are valid reasons. But if you are going NP because you "don't want to be considered a Doctor's ‘assistant'", then you are in for a rude awakening if/when you graduate because, to some extent or another, that's what 99% of mid-level's are.
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Obviously a troll. Maybe the mods can do something about him.
Regarding the lay disparity between PAs and NPs on the salary surveys... A lot of that has to do with the high paying specialties that many PAs are in. Additionally, NPs consist of about 94 percent female providers, which contributes somehow to reduced wages. That could either be due to wage discrimination if you look at it through the perspective of, say, a feminist... Or it could be due to females tending to take time off or preferring more flexible arrangements. Or it could be due to poll respondants not caring enough to reply to the Advance survey (there are some peculiarities to it). Since I am male, and compare to male respondants, those numbers are very similar to PAs. But I think a lot of what's been said is pretty accurate about PAs being trained very well, and having mobility that exceeds the majority of NPs. My hospital also uses only NPs in the ED, and so do the large systems around me, but that is doctor driven, and likely a regional issue rather than a universal.
I think the future for both fields will be in flux. Some people say that the drive for cost saving will mean great things for PAs being utilized, but I see that as leading to a risk of depressed wages. My nursing instructors saw the large numbers of nurses churned out as leading to more numbers in the nursing ranks and greater numbers available to deal with the sick, but I see more numbers leading to employers driving down wages.
I think the future for both fields will be in flux. Some people say that the drive for cost saving will mean great things for PAs being utilized, but I see that as leading to a risk of depressed wages. My nursing instructors saw the large numbers of nurses churned out as leading to more numbers in the nursing ranks and greater numbers available to deal with the sick, but I see more numbers leading to employers driving down wages.
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deleted6669
if you want to do anything hospital or inpatient specialty based (like surgery) you are likely better off going PA vs NP.
there are some markets(like pamac's apparently) where NPs have made inroads into hospital practice but in em for example you will find 10 pa jobs nationwide for every np job. ACEP (american college of emergency physicians) have stood behind PAs on many occasions as the non-physician provider of choice in emergency medicine. they are starting residencies for us, helping create our specialty board exam(caq), etc
if you want to do primary care, peds, psych, or obgyn you are better off going np, especially if you want to ever own your own practice.
there are some markets(like pamac's apparently) where NPs have made inroads into hospital practice but in em for example you will find 10 pa jobs nationwide for every np job. ACEP (american college of emergency physicians) have stood behind PAs on many occasions as the non-physician provider of choice in emergency medicine. they are starting residencies for us, helping create our specialty board exam(caq), etc
if you want to do primary care, peds, psych, or obgyn you are better off going np, especially if you want to ever own your own practice.
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aye
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Even this market is strange in that facilities are competing by touting the fact that you see a doctor when you go to an ED. All the PAs in ERs seemed to disappear when the different emergency medical groups started advertising how they put you in front of a doctor rather than anything else. Then NPs started showing up more and more on ER orders around here. But in any event, I plan to do what it takes to be a good enough clinician to be competent enough to compete wherever I land, whether that means doing an NP residency, or something else to be hire able, so the trends and ratios don't really disturb me when I hear one field dominates. Might be inconvenient at times, but few things are handed out struggle free. I like how the nursing world is in a position to advocate for their interests, but I think that when resources dry up, having a seat at the table with the doctors will just mean the nurses will find out before everyone else that belts will have to tighten.
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pacman, what type of specialty and sub-specialty are you looking to do? I'm looking at acute/critical care as my specialty and neurology as my sub-specialty. I plan to work for awhile after that and apply for a residency program in neurosurgery and get my first assist certification. I think if sum1's looking to do anesthesia, obgyn, womens health, family, internal, psych, and peds, NP could be the way to go. If your looking to do anything surgical than pa is a good choice. Either way, you'll find np's specializing in surgery and pa's working in primary care. I think you should look to see what type of model you would like to work in, the nursing vs. medical model, either way your going to be practicing medicine and you want to be a competent clinician upon graduation so study hard! Also I do feel patient care is best done under the guidance of a physician led team....I just like that np, you can practice under your own license and are solely responsible for your actions and your considered a partner to a physician not an "assistant" or an employee of their's. As a PA, not only is your license on the line but so is your supervising physician's. PA is great field though. i highly recommend it to anyone!!!
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That's a pretty broad generalization that's not necessarily true. In some states PA practice is pretty independent (like WA) and in some states NP practice is very limited (thinking Arkansas). Though I should add that NPs have complete independent practice in WA. It's true that NPs generally have more opportunities for autonomy, but how that actually plays out is highly variable and depends on your practice setting and state.
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Please....keep posting. Don't ever stop. You are the best thing to ever happen for PA public relations. Please, tell us more!.
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Although some states limit NP independence, I'm not sure any state limits NPs more than PAs. So even though a place like Arkansas may be rough to be an NP, that doesn't mean it's better to be a PA. But yes, the broad generalizations don't do justice to the conditions in each state.
I like how NPs are more "independent" on paper, but I don't expect to test the limits of that. There are a couple of cool little things I'd like to do with that independence that I wouldn't be able to do as a PA, but if my heart were set on the PA model, those items wouldn't be enough to deter me from being a PA. One thing I can't do as a PA is jump into nursing management if I ever choose, and most of the nurse managers I know make as much or more than most PAs around here. Not saying I want to simply dabble in being a provider, but it I ever become burnt out one day, it's nice to know there are options available to fall back on. Originally, that's what drew me to nursing vs RT or paramedicine. Having very defined tracks also is what doesn't appeal to me about staying in lab science. There are actually several avenues to follow with a lab science background, but from where I stand, the only ones that seemed remotely palatable for me was either working the bench, or moving into lab management. But excellence in practice comes from focus, and anyone expecting to jump around in the nursing world will find it easy to discover that they are sacrificing quality by changing gears too many times. That's why even the notion of jumping among specialties as a PA didn't seem to be something I'm interested in, even though I hear the model provides well for that option. Doctors and NPs don't do it without additional training, so I don't see how the generalist nature of PA somehow makes them immune from that kind of learning curve... At least not for the hardcore folks that talk about they practice almost autonomously and their SP never feels the need to be around. That works for emedpa because he eats, drinks, sleeps, fantasizes about emergency med (and has since before becoming a PA) and doesn't moonlight addiction medicine or derm. But the folks planning on jumping around every few years might find the market tightening in favor of PAs that settle down and got over the learning curve in a specialty a decade ago.
I like the options that an FNP would give me, and those also are specific to myself. I don't want to be called doctor, nor clash with any of them over treatment decisions. Decisions need to be made that are best for the patient, and I'll defer to whomever knows the most about what is going on. That's likely to be the doctor, and if they are there giving me a piece of their mind, it's probably because Im asking him or her to help me with something that's stumping me. I just want to help people.
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just go to med school imo
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Well said. Unfortunately there is a very vocal minority of NPs who disagree.
They invented the medical masters to squeeze money out of wanabee professional students who didn't have the grades... Not folks that could get in on their own merits. When you get a rejection letter from the for profit professional school of your choice, they include a brochure from their "medical masters program to help reapplicants!"....... With the implication that after you do it, your chances of getting into their professional school will improve. It's essentially a scam.
Anyone who is tempted to do one needs to ask themselves... What job does a medical masters qualify you for? Everyone would be better off doing lab science, accelerated nursing, state school paramedic, RT.... Pretty much anything that will add science credits and provide a job.
Meh.... Not even all DNPs out there allow practice rights. Many are management DNPs, or leadership DNPs. Many of the folks demanding to be called "doctor" might not even be providers, but rather "leaders", whatever that means. But aren't the malcontents always the most vocal? The squeaky wheel gets the grease, but it also can get ignored if you don't have time to stop and deal with it. Healthcare change isn't stopping.
I spent the last 3 days in the ER, and not once did I hear a physician say "I'm doctor X".... rather "I'm Jane Doe, one of the ED physicians". The patients and I and many of the other nurses were the ones that used the D word. I don't think this is part of some concerted effort, but it's clear they aren't stuck on a title. I think when someone is at the top of their game, they probably don't even think about using a title like a crutch. I bet they go by their names because they want to come across as humble and let the rest of their conversation demonstrate that they are at the top of the food chain. If a doctorally prepared nurses plan to insist on a title, thinking it will propel them to new heights they might be surprised. Imagine how silly one would feel carrying your doctor title into the providers dictation room to ask a question about patient care because you don't have the training to know what to do. Add to that that the person showing you the light doesn't even go by "doctor" like you insist on doing. True, maybe that only deters people like me that are somewhat dialed in to prevailing social norms, but hopefully logic like that will take hold for most DNP providers if they are tempted to confuse those around them by introducing themselves as "doctor" in a clinical setting.
