Masters or PhD , APA or non APA

[Acceptance isme]

Hi Acceptance,

Glad to hear that you're eschewing the online degree. I think what other members have said about this above is right.

Here's what I'm thinking:

Just to clarify, a "counseling psychologist" is someone who has gone to a doctoral program in counseling--if I understand you correctly you are deciding between an MSW and an MFT or similar MA in counseling. If you go the latter path, you'll really want to make sure that the program is accredited with your state licensing board so that you can practice.

I don't recall whether you said that private practice (PP) was your goal, but as someone else above suggested, you will need to accrue clinical hours as part of your masters training. If there are literally no such placements within a commutable distance from where you now live, then that's something to think about. But if there are, then those people (licensed folks, interns) could be a valuable resource. My guess is if schools are few and far between in your neck of the woods, the clinicians working in your area either all go to the nearest school or attended elsewhere and then moved to where you are?

So here's the important part of advice that I can offer:

WHICH PROGRAM YOU SELECT SHOULD BE THE RESULT OF YOU REALLY KNOWING WHAT YOU WANT AND WHO YOU ARE. I got talked out of applying for MFT programs because an MSW was the "smart" choice: more employable, better license, better financial prospects. All true facts (where I live), but generic advice designed around one "best" outcome unrelated to who I am as a person or what would serve me best. Got into a top MSW program. Hated it. It was reputed to be very clinical, but there is no way I could have been a competent clinician at the end of that program. I probably would have finished despite this, but it was so expensive that I simply couldn't justify it. Some people have the constitution to pay a bunch to get through a program in order to earn a "pedigree" and alumni network despite the fact that they're not learning what they feel they need to know to be competent. I'm not one of them. Profs at my undergrad university had poo-pooed the MFT and PsyD that I really wanted, and made it abundantly clear that the PhD was training for academics only, not clinicians. So I left and gave up on clinical work.

Deep down I really knew that I wanted the psychology-based training I'd get in an MFT program, but I couldn't shake other's advice. Then I went the other direction...made an informed "smart" choice and picked a PhD program in a non-clinical social science discipline. This was a better fit but still not quite right, and the academic job market has crashed since I began, so I'm finding myself wishing that I'd just done an MFT or PsyD all those years ago.

No social work masters will give you the same amount of clinical training as a counseling masters--to be accredited MSW programs have to cover policy, macro stuff as well. But you might find that either the training that they do offer, or the end result (degree, license) suits you best. That's why, in my opinion, it's really important to talk to current students, as well as thinking backwards from what you really want to do. You don't need to already know them--show up on campus and hang out--see if you can chat someone up. Or attend an "info session" and hang around before and after. Take someone to lunch--grad students love free food.

The MSW may be right for YOU, or the MFT. Look at the curriculum from local schools and you'll see the difference in training and whether it meets your needs.

Good luck!

Hi Wigflip!

Your replies have been so helpful to me!!! Thank you!! Well, I am definitely leaning towards the Master of Arts in Counseling Psychology degree. MFT is something I know I do not want to do for sure, although if I wanted to later it is one of the many options in Counseling Psychology. Below is a copy of what the school I am interested in offers. One thing I love is that they do offer some blended part in the program so I would only have to go to the campus a couple times a week. They are CACREP accredited which is the master's equivalent of what APA is to the doctorate. Look at what I have copied and let me know what you think please. Thanks so much in advance

Master of Arts in Community Counseling

Credential Titles
LPC, LPCC, LCPC, LMHC, LPCMH, LCMHC, LPC-MH

Exam Requirements
National Counselor Exam (NCE) orNational Clinical Mental Health Counselor Exam (NCMHCE)
State Administered Jurisprudence and/or Ethics Examination

Educational Requirements
Accredited Master's Degree in Counseling or
related field
48 to 60 semester credit hours
CACREP or CACREP Equivalent: Eight core curriculum areas, professional practice component
Practicum or internship

Experiential requirements
2,000 –4,000 hours of working as a counselor over 2 –4 years
100 hours supervised work, under an LPC (or equivalent)
*Licensure requirements vary by state; visit www.counseling.orgfor up-to-date information.


NATIONAL CERTIFICATION
Nationally Certified Counselor (NCC):
Professional credential granted by National Board of Certified Counselors (NBCC)
Exam Requirement:
NCE
Educational Requirement:
48 semester-hour program in counseling from regionally accredited institution
Professional practice minimum of two terms
Experiential Requirement:
3,000 hours of practice with 100 supervised hours or CACREP Accredited Program

Blended part of program
•Weeknight: seven classroom meetings, one per week
•Weekend: 24 classroom hours, 3 sessions
•Weekly E-College assignments: readings, discussion board, projects

On-Ground part of program
•Meetings: Alternating weekends, 2 weekends per month
•Times: Fridays, 5:30pm –10pm and Saturdays, 9am –6pm
•Courses: Counseling Theories, Counseling Skills I and II

Career Outcomes:
Marriage and Family Therapist
Behavior Disorder Counselor
Career Counselor
Community Counselor
Rehabilitation Counselor
Substance Abuse Counselor
Mental Health Counselor

Employers:
Community Health Organizations
Vocational Rehabilitation Centers
Correctional Institutions
Residential Care Facilities
Social Agencies
Hospitals
Private Practice

Semester 1
Counseling Theory
Community Mental Health

Semester 2
Counseling Skills I
Social and Cultural Diversity

Semester 3
Counseling Skills II
Group Counseling
5

Semester 1
Maladaptive Behavior and Psychopathology
Human Growth and Development

Semester 2
Appraisal and Assessment
Practicum: 15 weeks
100 supervised hours

Semester 3
Couples and Family Counseling
Substance Abuse Counseling
Career and Lifestyle Development

Semester 1
Research and Program Evaluation
Professional &Ethical Issues

Semester 2
Internship: 15 weeks
300 hours / 20 per week

Semester 3
Internship: 15 weeks
300 hours / 20 per week

-
Accelerated Delivery Format:
-
Two terms per 15-week semester.
-
Students typically take one class per term.
-
Semester Breaks and Holidays:
-
2 –3 weeks between each semester
-
Handling Job/Life Interruptions
-
Practicum and Internship


The schedule is 3 semesters all year round (15 weeks long). So the Fall usually goes from September to December, Spring starts in January and ends April while Summer is May to August. And the 2-3 week breaks between semesters are yours to relax.
Now of course, the semesters are split in half so with full time students taking 2 classes every semester, they only take 1 class at a time but you do have the option of taking more than 2 classes every semester which would in turn allow you to pay a lower tuition rate.

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[Acceptance isme]

To clarify further, a counseling psychologist is someone who has gone to a doctoral program in counseling psychology. This differs from a doctoral program in counseling in that a counseling psychologist goes through APPIC and sits for the same licensing examination as a clinical psychologist, and should she or he pass, becomes a licensed psychologist.

Hi Psycycle,

Thanks for your input! I was told that I don't need the doctorate in counseling psychology to be a psychologist. One of the admission counselors said that with the Master of Arts in Community Counseling I would also be a counseling psychologist, with exception of the Dr. title, as well as not be able to prescribe meds nor would I do assessments. Is this correct? This is so exciting but at the same time very confusing!

 

[PrisonPsych]

Hi Psycycle,

Thanks for your input! I was told that I don't need the doctorate in counseling psychology to be a psychologist. One of the admission counselors said that with the Master of Arts in Community Counseling I would also be a counseling psychologist, with exception of the Dr. title, as well as not be able to prescribe meds nor would I do assessments. Is this correct? This is so exciting but at the same time very confusing!

You would not be able to call yourself a psychologist; that title is protected and limited to PhD holders. What you would be able to call yourself depends on the licensure options in your state. Most likely it would qualify you for LPC licensure, which is a licensed practical counselor, not a counseling psychologist. Some states have masters level psychology licensure, with a typical title like licensed psychological associate (LPA). LPAs usually cannot practice independently; they have to receive doctoral level supervision for life. I would suggest that you look into the requirements for different kinds of licensure in the state you are interested in practicing in, both through the LPC board and the psychology board.

 

[psich]

Hi Psycycle,

Thanks for your input! I was told that I don't need the doctorate in counseling psychology to be a psychologist. One of the admission counselors said that with the Master of Arts in Community Counseling I would also be a counseling psychologist, with exception of the Dr. title, as well as not be able to prescribe meds nor would I do assessments. Is this correct? This is so exciting but at the same time very confusing!

My understanding is that only individuals with a doctorate can call themselves psychologists. I think the exception is that in some states a person with a master's in school psychology can call themselves a school psychologist.

I'm not sure about whether or not what the admission counselor told you is correct.

 

[wsa777]

New to forum. I live in PA and am currently full-time employed by the department of corrections in PA as a bachelor's level treatment specialist. I have an MA in counseling (not obtained online) and am currently waiting for a posted position within doc for a master's level psych services associate position. (I took the bachelor's level position in order to get my foot in the door at DOC). I have begun considering a doctorate in psychology through an apa approved program in order to be eligible for licensure in the state of PA (it must be an apa or CPA or ASPPB/NR approved program in the state of pa for licensure) as a psychologist. Being a licensed psychologist would then make me eligible for psychologist positions in the department of corrections which pay more than psych services associates or specialists. But, as I research online, it is becoming apparent that an APA accredited online doctorate in psychology program does not seem to exist. I want to pursue a doctorate, need to keep my current M-F full time day job and so an online degree would appear to work best for me. This is turning out to not be very straightforward. Any suggestions?

 

[Ollie123]

I'd give some real thought to why you want the doctorate and what other career paths might allow you to achieve similar goals. No legitimate program in this field will let you work full-time while attending (at least not if you plan to graduate in less than 12 years or so). Doctorates are 5-6 years of full-time study, 40-60 hours a week.

Similarly, the perception of online programs is quite poor. I can't comment on your particular workplace, but in the broader field any school like the one you describe will likely not perceived as a real (non-diploma-mill) degree.

 

[erg923]

But, as I research online, it is becoming apparent that an APA accredited online doctorate in psychology program does not seem to exist. I want to pursue a doctorate, need to keep my current M-F full time day job and so an online degree would appear to work best for me. This is turning out to not be very straightforward. Any suggestions?

Then you dont have time for a doctorate. Sorry. The doctorate (in clinical or counseling psych) IS a full-time job.

I don't understand the notion that the doctoral program/institution should have to adjust to your lifestyle. With choices, come sacrifices-especially at that level.

 

[busybusybusy]

I don't understand the notion that the doctoral program/institution should have to adjust to your lifestyle.

With choices, come sacrifices-especially at that level.

To the OP: Many PhD programs at funded which allows you to still be able to live while going to school full time. Geographic restrictions will significantly hinder your admissions possibilities though.

 

[wsa777]

No one HAS to adjust to anything. I don't have to give up my job to attend a doctoral program and the programs available don't have to adjust to my work schedule. Just want to use forum to see if someone has a suggestions that could help my search. Appreciate the geico commerical reference although a little annoyed at the low-level aggression in your response. Seems unnecessary.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

wsa777, it is not realistic to keep your full-time job and enroll in doctoral training in clinical/counseling psychology. This isn't something you can do on the side, as most people put in 50-60+ hr a week during their training. Doctoral training requires the graduate student to shape their schedule and life around the program, and not the other way around. Any program that tries to sell you on any other reality is selling you bridge in Brooklyn.....

 

[psich]

No one HAS to adjust to anything. I don't have to give up my job to attend a doctoral program and the programs available don't have to adjust to my work schedule. Just want to use forum to see if someone has a suggestions that could help my search. Appreciate the geico commerical reference although a little annoyed at the low-level aggression in your response. Seems unnecessary.

It would be extremely difficult to get adequate doctoral-level training in psychology while maintaining a FT job. Many online graduate programs have low admission standards and low match rates, so graduates have a much harder time finding jobs. Even if you could attend such a program, it would probably be a poor financial decision in the long run.

However, I can understand that people are protective of the field. Imagine this: a person who devotes 5 - 7 years of their life to studying psychology is competing against someone who took online courses PT while maintaining a FT job. Although that may not be the exact scenario, the essence is the same. This is a big problem right now for people looking for internships, post-docs, and jobs because the field is saturated. The former is having such a difficult time landing a position...imagine how tough it would be for the person who graduated from OnlineGradSchool Inc..

 

[erg923]

No one HAS to adjust to anything.

Yes, actually, you do. I'm finishing one right now (as are alot of people on this thread).

The nature of doctoral training in this field is not amenable to evenings and weekends. As just one example, when would you see patients in a practicum setting? In the evening and on weekends...when the clinics are closed and your supervisors are home having dinner with their families?

I would encourage you to think ahead a bit, and on a slightly different level. Imagine you are a hospital administrator or a psychologist in charge of a clinic. You have a pile of apps on your desk. Several attended traditional APA accredited university programs with good reps and/or known faculty and have APA accredited internships. One attended an unaccredited online university in their spare time and did an unaccredited internship (they weren't eligible for most APA internships because their programs wasn't accredited). Who do you think is the first to get tossed from the pile?

 

[wsa777]

One of the major points of my original post was that in order to even get a doctorate in psychology in the state of PA the program must be apa approved (or cpa approved or ASPPB/NR). I am not able to find an online APA approved doctoral program. If it's not apa approved then it will not prepare me for licensure in the state I work in so it's not an option. I am not trying to suggest that I want to take any old online program that isn't apa approved and use it to sneak in to the doctoral field. Some states apparently don't require an apa approved program for licensure as a psychologist but pa does.
My wish list (in no particular order), and i'd appreciate not getting hammered just for having one, is the following:
on-line coursework
financial aid available
apa accredited
program should prepare for licensure in my state
program to accept my previous credits (MA in counseling obtained in 2004 from a 'brick and mortar' school)

Now, this list may not be available and this forum will help me, I hope, determine that. I don't want this because I feel entitled or because I want to make life harder for those who have taken a different route in obtaining their doctorates. I'm just checking it out because in the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections, my Master's will only take me so far. I believe I am capable of obtaining a doctorate (I am not insisting that it's possible while working full time although my only frame of reference is the experience of having obtained my Master's while working full time) and one career goal I am considering setting would involve a doctorate in psychology. I would be okay, if it is possible at all, with the doctorate taking years (not twelve but say 4-5) while I am working.
If it turns out that this is not possible for me, then I will reevaluate my goals.

 

[PrisonPsych]

One of the major points of my original post was that in order to even get a doctorate in psychology in the state of PA the program must be apa approved (or cpa approved or ASPPB/NR). I am not able to find an online APA approved doctoral program. If it's not apa approved then it will not prepare me for licensure in the state I work in so it's not an option. I am not trying to suggest that I want to take any old online program that isn't apa approved and use it to sneak in to the doctoral field. Some states apparently don't require an apa approved program for licensure as a psychologist but pa does.
My wish list (in no particular order), and i'd appreciate not getting hammered just for having one, is the following:
on-line coursework
financial aid available
apa accredited
program should prepare for licensure in my state
program to accept my previous credits (MA in counseling obtained in 2004 from a 'brick and mortar' school)

Now, this list may not be available and this forum will help me, I hope, determine that. I don't want this because I feel entitled or because I want to make life harder for those who have taken a different route in obtaining their doctorates. I'm just checking it out because in the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections, my Master's will only take me so far. I believe I am capable of obtaining a doctorate (I am not insisting that it's possible while working full time although my only frame of reference is the experience of having obtained my Master's while working full time) and one career goal I am considering setting would involve a doctorate in psychology. I would be okay, if it is possible at all, with the doctorate taking years (not twelve but say 4-5) while I am working.
If it turns out that this is not possible for me, then I will reevaluate my goals.

Wsa -

I feel for your dilemma, I do. I am a master's level practitioner who worked in the state prison system (NC, in my case) for years before coming back for a doctorate. I chose to come back for many of the same reasons you're talking about now.

However, I'm not sure you understand the reality of the situation.

There is only one non-brick-and-mortar school that is accredited by APA. That is Fielding, and it is mostly online with periodic intensive weekends or weeks at the actual school. However, it is a PsyD and very expensive. When I say expensive, I mean it would probably cost you between 100k and 150k to complete.

There are no funded online APA accredited programs. Period.

As far as whether or not schools will "accept your masters": Depends on what you mean by that. Some schools will not take students with masters degrees at all. Most will, however. Some will offer you *some* credit for some of your masters coursework, but at most you are likely to shave a year off of your degree. Students without masters degrees typically finish a Ph.D. program in 6 to 7 years. Students with masters degrees whose program gives them some credit for their masters coursework typically finish a Ph.D. program in 5-6 years (possibly 4 years if the stars align just right).

It is not feasible to do a doctorate program and work full-time. Period. You cannot fathom how much work is actually required from the outside. Include coursework, research obligations, assistantship obligations (this is how you get funding - typically involves teaching, lab work, or other departmental obligations), and practicum I *easily* have 80 hours a week of stuff to do. That's not an exaggeration. Many programs expressly forbid you from working while in the program for this reason (or severely limit your hours). I also worked full-time while getting my masters - this is *not* the same thing.

If nothing else, practicum requirements would prevent you from your plan - these involve unpaid training experiences at mental health centers or VAs or other community facilities that happen during "normal business hours."

Financial aid (outside of student loans) is typically only available at APA accredited brick-and-mortar Ph.D. programs. Some non-accredited programs offer some aid, but you already know the hazards of non-APA programs.

 

[erg923]

I know we have all been making alot of points regarding APA accreditation and hiring preferences/biases and such...but apparently you're NOT getting the bottom line.

An "online doctorate" is just not an viable option in this field (For reasons I and others mentioned). Period. Please think about the points we have made and you will understand WHY its not.

PS: By the way, you didnt tell me when or how you plan on doing your practica while you work 40 hours/week?

 

[erg923]

say wa...

 

[2012PhD]

and one career goal I am considering setting would involve a doctorate in psychology. I would be okay, if it is possible at all, with the doctorate taking years (not twelve but say 4-5) while I am working.
If it turns out that this is not possible for me, then I will reevaluate my goals.

A full-time PhD/PsyD will 6 years on average. Doctoral training takes about 8 years until you are licensed. If you are working full-time, there is no way you will get your degree in 4-5 years. Anytime you attempt to cut corners in this field you will get screwed when it comes to applying for jobs or trying to get an internship. If a program promises you that you can graduate in 4 years, then they are either flat out lying to you or leading you into a situation where you will complete an unaccredited unpaid full-time internship. I have never met anyone even in a PsyD who graduated after 4 years. It might be possible if you go to an online program or complete an unaccredited, unpaid internship (but then you will have licensure issues and employment barriers).

 

[wigflip]

My friend was pursuing an MA in Women's Studies and her committee members told her she couldn't work (beyond her academic commitments). It was a top ranked school (not Goofus U), but still, an MA, not a doctorate, and not a clinical doctorate, with all the extra hours that that entails. Even if it were feasible (to juggle FT work and FT grad school--very doubtful, as many have already noted), your grad school profs/mentors would give you hell and you'd lose their respect. My adviser (non-psych doctorate, for now) is very open, but most of my friends' advisers (people who have a fair amount of power over the direction of your future) are pretty intrusive with regards to their life choices ("No, you cannot co-author that paper with X prof," "No, you cannot take on Y commitment, must do Z for me instead."). It's easy to imagine that you'd be a maverick and do what you want, but keep in mind that you are relying on strong letters from these folks and pleasing them is important.

I think some of the confusion on this site and others emerges as folks who have completed professional degrees at the MA level want to complete academic doctorates, assuming that a doctoral degree is like a professional MA, just more so (somewhat greater difficulty and workload, but same drill). In my experience, professional MAs are like undergrad, just more so. Doctorates are a whole other animal entirely.

 

[wsa777]

Thank you to all who posted replies for my original question - I have read them all and do sincerely believe my awareness and knowledge base concerning issues surrounding earning a doctorate have been inreased. Again, thank you for your input.