Match Questions + Neurosurg.

[patrickhenson]

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Osteopathic MS-I here. I am curious if anyone can tell me what the situation is when students apply for BOTH osteopathic and allopathic residency matches. Which one, if either, takes precedence?

Also, any student DO or graduate DO who has had experience with a competitive allopathic residency (i.e. neurosurg), I would love to hear how you were received. We are underrepresented in many fields and many areas...is it silly to believe that I can excel where I am and be able to procure the residency I want without the "DO" getting in the way?

Thanks all.
Patrick - OSU-COM

 

[MrGreed]

I'll try to dig up an email for you...this guy interviewed at some pretty competitive allopathic ns programs...he's now in a DO neurosurgery program though...stay tuned

 

[Careofme]

I'd love to hear some more info on that too...thanxs!

 

[enceph]

Originally posted by Careofme
Neurosurgeons know nothing but do everything.
Neurologists know everything but do nothing.
Psychiatrists know nothing and do nothing. (Thanks "DrCuts!")

LOL!

I thought, however, the saying went this way:

Neurosurgeons know nothing but do everything.
Neurologists know everything but do nothing.
Pathologists know everything and do everything,
but it's too late.

 

[patrickhenson]

As a follow-up to my own post:

I have basically heard that if an osteopathic student takes part in both matched (which is allowed), that he/she must withdraw from the allopathic match upon matching to an osteopathic program. Since it seems likely that any DO student who matches an MD residency would also match a DO residency, there is little reason to do both. UNLESS you have one supreme, top choice DO residency and will settle for an MD one. ALSO, in very competitive residencies, just to improve chances of getting a spot.

As far as the 'very competitive residency' part (i.e. neurosurg), we DO's must apparently consider our schools as low-2nd or high-3rd tier, at least in the eyes of the residency committees. Since only 40-80 neurosurg. positions are matched each year, everyone is in the same boat.

(Also, I have been told that a DO will never get a derm residency. Just too much competition.)

Sure would love any feedback on this from someone who actually knows firsthand.

Patrick
OSU-COM

 

[lipoyl]

As an allopathic neurosurgery candidate who has almost finished the interview cycle this year (mostly 2st/high 2nd teir programs), I can say that I have yet to see a single osteopathic applicant in one of my interviews. You do run accross the occasional foreign MD grad, but even this is uncommon. I think that you would require spectacular board scores and/or reserach/connections to match as a non-allopathic candidate. I also think it is nearly impossible to match at a top program (Barrow, SF, BWH) without an MD degree.

 

[patrickhenson]

Originally posted by lipoyl
I think that you would require spectacular board scores and/or reserach/connections to match as a non-allopathic candidate. I also think it is nearly impossible to match at a top program (Barrow, SF, BWH) without an MD degree.

Doesn't this go without saying?

My whole perspective is that average candidates do not get these positions anyway, regardless of their degree. Also, I believe that there are not that many osteo applicants for allo NS positions. I could be mistaken, but does any candidate with moderately high boards and no connections get into NS programs?

Anyway, there is no reason why it CANT happen...at least we will keep telling ourselves that 🙂

Patrick
OSU-COM
🙁 🙁 🙁

 

[JPNSU]

I actually have an acquaintance who is doing a neurosurgery residency right now

Ryan Barrett D.O.
[email protected]

 

[patrickhenson]

Currently, out of about 400 allopathic NS residents, 4 are DO's. This just says to me that it CAN be done. I would like to know how people were received and how they felt about the programs they interviewed at.

Note: there are at least 8 osteopathic NS programs, so allopathic residency isnt the only option, but probably the best career move at this point.

Ideally, a top-10 residency director would just happen upon this post and give me the advice/info I am searching for 😉

Patrick
OSU-COM

 

[JPNSU]

I think you're overlooking the fact that your own school has 2 DO neurosurgery programs in place for you to get to know EXTREMELY well😀

 

[JPNSU]

I actually interviewed at allopathic ophthalmology programs...some of them refused me an interview, while others were fairly open to DOs

 

[patrickhenson]

In your opinion - were you refused interviews because you were a DO? Or because of other reasons. From what I understand, opthalmology is highly competitive as well.

Patrick
OSU-Com

 

[neutropeniaboy]

I'm curious-

What are the strongest residency programs in neurosurgery these days?

(And feel free to split them into two groups based upon reputation and actual resident experience -- if such a distinction exists; I know one does for ENT.)

 

[lipoyl]

I think the top 5 programs in the country by popularity and prestige are:

(1)Barrow
(2)Columbia
(3)Brigham (Art Day factor being huge)
(4)Hopkins
(5)UCSF

In terms of resident experience:

(1) Barrow
(2) USC
(3) UCSF
(4) UVa
(5) Pittsburgh (?)

Penn also seems to be a hot program on the trail this year, and I think it will continue as Sean Grady becomes more established as chair.

Florida impressed me as well, although Al Rhoton will be retiring soon, and people say that Freidman can be malignant.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Originally posted by lipoyl
I think the top 5 programs in the country by popularity and prestige are:

(1)Barrow

Barrow Neurologic Institute?

How does Cleveland Clinic rank among them?

 

[GenMed]

(1) Brigham
(1) Hopkins
(3) Mayo
(4) Barrow
(5) Mass Gen
(5) UCSF

 

[lipoyl]

I liked Cleveland Clinic. Ed Benzel taking over as residency director no doubt helps them, and certainly adds to their spine program. The main knock against CCF was the number of fellows (I think there are 11 this year), which definately detracts from resident experience. Overall I got the impression that they were a program that is transitioning from a blue-collar to a more white collar atmosphere.

I don't think that there is any question that Barrow is one of the elite programs in the country today. A year ago I would have said Seattle, but after Dick Winn's departure, I would have to say that BNI was a notch above any of the other programs I interviewed (and that includes Columbia, Brigham, San Fran and Hopkins). Too bad it's in Arizona.

I interview at Mayo early next month, so I'll reserve judgement on that institution until then.

 

[gonzo9111]

...any specifics on the number applied for the NS match or how many are interviewing this year...

 

[scooter31]

Just curious about the "Art Day factor" at BWH. I work in conjunction with the NSU dept there (I work in Rad Onc), and have met him on numerous occasions (very pleasant southern gentleman for sure), and am curious about the previous post regarding him and the BWH program..... Thanks all & have a pleasant holiday!

 

[patrickhenson]

Originally posted by gonzo9111
...any specifics on the number applied for the NS match or how many are interviewing this year...

this info is practically impossible to find. i do know that the most competitive programs get 80-100 apps, choose 15-20 interviews and select 0-2 residents. of course, if it is the same 80-100 candidates...but the odds are certainly not in the graduates favor.

Patrick
OSU-COM

 

[spazwow]

I am a 4th year osteopathic student applying to nsurg.

here's my two cents. I've wanted to do ns for some time now, but i had always been turned off to do residencies because the little birdies in my school had drilled into my head the idea that osteopathic residencies are inferior to allopathic. IMHO, this is simply not true. I would state that DO residencies are more uneven in their quality, but you can still find excellent do training opportunities. there are about 9 osteopathic DO nsurg programs right now. 2-3 are really not too hot. but there are 2-3 that are really quite good (i.e. high n and good path, excellent faculty, good resources). as far as i'm concerned, if I get into one of these programs I will lose nothing in terms of my training. and since there are about 15 D.O.'s applying to osteopathic nsrug this year, i've got to like my odds.

now, many of those DO's that i met are also applying to allopathic residencies. i'm not sure why they did this, but i'll tell you my logic.
there are a couple of specialites (ophto, derm, ctsurg, nsurg, etc.) that are historically anti-do. personally, this is not a fight i wish to take on. there are DO's in allopathic ns resdiencies, but often there is a mitigating factor there. at the very least you would be required to do a student rotation at any allopathic residency you would be interested in.
also, osteopathic and allopathic residenies are not the same in terms of curriculum. allopathic residencies, i understand (but do not know for sure!) will often have a year of general surgery after an internship year, meaning that you will not be in nsurg until pgy3. the osteo programs are more variable, but they range from 1 year to 0 months of gen surg time. in some of these programs the interns are drilling holes in heads. this I have seen for myself,
furthermore, osteo programs do not push research as a rule. so, if you are a do who does not care for GS or research (like me), then why the hell would you go allopathic if there are a couple of fine osteo programs out there?

 

[droliver]

spazwow,

As I understand it, few allopathic programs have a full surgical intern year any more as a result of an increasing standardized curriculum mandated by the Neurosurgical Boards for the pgy-1 year. Most programs do maybe 6 months now of surgical rotations their PGY-1 year, and the other 6 rotating b/w ortho, radiology, hand, & neurosurgery, & neurology.

As for why allopathic residencies would be more desirable.... A lot of that would have to do with snob appeal & the fact that the cutting edge technology & most influential people in the fields tend to cluster in allopathic teaching facilities. This does not necessarily reflect on your training experience which can be good at any place with neccessary pathology & teachers

 

[lipoyl]

I think the more realistic numbers are about 200 applications/program out of which 30-45 are selected for interviews. Of course the 1-person programs will interview fewer people. I think the best odds I had were at Hopkins where 30 of us were interviewed for 3 spots. I believe that typically between 250-350 people register for the match each year for ~150 positions. ~150positions per year x 7 years (avg. length of residency)=~1050 neurosurgery trainees in the country at a given time, not 400 as previously posted by someone.

In all honesty I think the raw numbers are irrelevant. The salient point is that the core applicant pool is extremely strong and you really need to be solid on all fronts. If you have a deficiency in your app. (ie FMG, osteopath, poor board scores...) you will have to make up for it by being even more exceptional in another area.

With respect to Art Day, he's the new head of the cerebrovascular program at the Brigham, and is also wearing the hat of program director. His arrival from Florida seems to have revitalized that program (which had previously been saddled with rumors of malignancy and resident dissatisfaction/departures). I know that his presence certainly was a selling point for me, and I will place Brigham highly on my rank list .

 

[patrickhenson]

Originally posted by lipoyl
If you have a deficiency in your app. (ie FMG, osteopath, poor board scores...) you will have to make up for it by being even more exceptional in another area

Nice to know that my CHOICE of medical program is equatable with going to school in the Dominican or posting mediocre boards. I hope that others in the world of 'real doctors' realize that as osteopaths, we take the same curriculum, the same exams, and begin clinical training on day one. I will put my programs graduates clinical skills up against anyone elses, any day of the week.

With that said, I wish those of you who are matching soon the best and Merry Christmas to all!!!

Patrick
OSU-COM

 

[gonzo9111]

...i think we may have interviewed together🙂

 

[lipoyl]

nice to here that im not the only ns applicant on this board...maybe we'll see each other again (have mayo and usc left)

 

[duramaterdoc]

There's a lot to picking a residency.

You will meet a great number of people who will "rank" programs as number 1 thru 10. This is crap.

There is a discrete number of ns programs that are good. Some are not so good. These places are on probation, etc. and are fairly obvious.

Appearances and names can be deceiving. Programs vary widely according to operative experience, resident autonomy, call, research expectations and allowances and resident/faculty interaction. The best thing you can do for such a LONG residency is find where you fit-in. I mean covering all realms. These people will be your family. Make sure they have the same values (figuratively speaking) regarding the qualities I mentioned.

For the DO applicant...neurosurgery applicant numbers are FALLING. No one wants to do a career with that much call, with that long of a residency with diminishing salaries. It's a cool field, but beware...the attrition rate is about 30%.

DO app...I think you should give it a shot. Do well in med school (top 20-30% of your class), get good board scores (>225), do research if you can, and be an interesting, interactive normal person in your interviews. If you can do this you'll be ahead of a good number of applicants.

Good luck.

 

[Lorriemac]

Any opinions about 6 or 7 year programs versus 8? Senior in high school. How important is rep of undergrad program towards med school and then med school towards residency in neurosurgery? Live in Indiana likely to go to Indiana Univ. for undergrad and med school depending on later options. IU does not have shorter program. Any help greatly appreciated!! Thanks!!

 

[duramaterdoc]

The length of a program is totally dependent on whether or not you want to do it. Some programs allow you to complete a fellowship within your residency so it may seem like 7 years, but you're getting a built-in fellowship.

Longer programs (like 8 yrs) are usually for programs that want to produce chairmen. (This is generally speaking, of course)

Undergrad, med school...doesn't matter where as far as getting into med school/residency--a 4.0 is a 4.0, aoa is aoa, board scores will show the truth. Just do well

You're only a senior though. Go to college, take classes in things that INTEREST you and then follow your PASSION...it's very difficult to work even 40 hours a week in a job that's boring; If you love your job, you'll be putting in 80+ hours and loving it.

Please, please, please do not streamline your thinking into NS at such an early age. Enjoy the next couple of years doing things you like and growing as a person. Do well in school and do the things that excite you--you will never have so many options to learn such interesting things (like art, languages, etc.) as you will in college.

🙂 Hope this helps

 

[Lorriemac]

Duramaterdoc, thanks so much for your reply. This is mom researching for daughter. I think I did not make the question clear but you gave much info we do not have. Thanks!! I meant to ask about programs that combine undergrad and med school into a shorter program. It has been difficult to find much info. Supposedly some are geared more like school abroad where you start right into science classes and cut out some classes required here toward a bachelor, some are 3 undergrad then the first year of med school counts back toward a bachelor, some are suppose to be extremely competitive and rigorous. We have only found a few programs and they had requirement of residing in that state (for instance UIC) another she does not have high enough SAT (at RPI.) She has a 1230, GPA 3.5 or a bit better in the most rigorous schedule possible. She would have been a 4.0 but attended a state academy last year. Almost all students drop in GPA even thought they are learning 5 times as much as at any other public school. Her interest is so high she followed a NS for the past summer, 2 offices, rounds in 3 hospitals, 1 spine surgery sit in (unbelievable!!) She knows about the extremely long days and nights. Currently she is definately decided but if something trips her trigger she will investigate it. Forwarded your comments I know will be very meaningful to her. Still need lots of help and advice (single mom-family never in college before) Money huge obstacle. Thanks

 

[Pitt Panther]

Spazwow,

I just send you a PM.

Pitt Panther

 

[Toadkiller Dog]

Not sure where "patrickhenson" got his info, but in the September 4th, 2002 issue of Journal of the American Medical Association, it lists residency stats of all sorts.

In there it says that of all current neurosurg residents (PGY 1-7), there is ONE osteopath. That's right: ONE in all seven years of training.