Matched at #10 on my ROL; beat that!

SuFiBB

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    :(
    that's right, I matched at a program I ranked #10 on my ROL in internal medicine. I can't believe I ranked so low on my ROL. How is it possible for me to interview at so many places and not match at somewhere higher on my ROL. I challenge anyone out there to tell me that they matched at a place lower than #10 on their ROL. Otherwise I will call the guiness book because this has to be a world record. I mean I should be featured on that show Ripley's believe or not. I would put that 2 headed bearded lady to shame. I am pissed that I matched so low on my ROL because I can't help but have a sick sense of humor about it. but I don't care I just the interpersonal relationships that comes with being a doctor. but still #10, can anyone beat that!!!!
     

    docmojo

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      LOL. That is something I've not heard of before. I look forward to hearing if anyone else managed to match so far down their list. Hopefully it turns out to be a better experience than you expect. Good luck!
       
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      axm397

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        I got my #1 choice in PM&R and my #7 choice in prelim.(!!!!!) There were 9 students in my class who didn't match. It seems the match was pretty tough this year for many people in my class and at other schools. One student I know ranked 7 surgery programs and still didn't match. The computer is to blame!!! +pissed+
         

        BellKicker

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          Originally posted by doctim
          i know someone who ranked our program #1 and our program matched him #5 and he ended up with his #2 choice. is that possible???

          1. Someone isn't telling the truth

          2. THe program gave away loads of prematches

          3. It's a REALLY small program.

          4. THe computer is to blame.


          I'd go with #1
           

          Crypt Abscess

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            IM was a tougher match this year than most people anticipated. It is still by no means "competitive". #10?!...WTF? You may want to contact Guiness. Were there any red flags on your academic record or are you a FMG or Carib graduate? I know of several stellar IM applicants (look in the IM forum, particularly Hop Toad and Renovar) who did not match at their #1 or #2. I think what it was, is that everyone applying to IM ranked the same programs highly. However, I know several not so stellar students in my class who matched at good programs (UTSW, Mayo). Good luck to you. Let me know what Guiness says, b/c I definitely think that is a record. Crypt
             
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            neilc

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              Originally posted by doctim
              i know someone who ranked our program #1 and our program matched him #5 and he ended up with his #2 choice. is that possible???

              yeah, wouldn't it just mean that the four people that were ranked higher actually had to go this far down on the list....the only way it is not possible is if the place had more than 5 spots, right? am i missing something?

              if he ranked it number 1 and there are 5 or more spots, he should have matched. if not, it seems entirely possible.
               

              SuFiBB

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                Originally posted by Crypt Abscess
                IM was a tougher match this year than most people anticipated. It is still by no means "competitive". #10?!...WTF? You may want to contact Guiness. Were there any red flags on your academic record or are you a FMG or Carib graduate? I know of several stellar IM applicants (look in the IM forum, particularly Hop Toad and Renovar) who did not match at their #1 or #2. I think what it was, is that everyone applying to IM ranked the same programs highly. However, I know several not so stellar students in my class who matched at good programs (UTSW, Mayo). Good luck to you. Let me know what Guiness says, b/c I definitely think that is a record. Crypt

                The places that I applied to were not competitive (they did not feature any specialties that were ranked in usnews.com) I am an american graduate but my academic record has red flags galore. so that definitely explains. but my point is this, if people are willing to interview me despite the red flags on my transcript then why isn't at least one of them willing to rank me?
                 

                medres

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                  SuFiBB- I'm a chief resident in an IM program and I was very involved in the interviewing/ranking process. Most programs offer interviews to a lot of IM categorical candidates- they have to. There are so many programs for candidates to choose from. ERAS allows you to screen for board scores, med schools and some other very basic parameters, and most programs offer interviews based on that inital screen. I'm not sure what your "red flags" were, but my guess is that is what knocked you down (or off) program's rank lists. Big red flags for my program, for example, was failing Step 1 or 2, failing a clinical rotation, or unexplained time off/leave of absence (that's a biggie).

                  At any rate, give yourself a pat on the back for being smart enough to rank enough programs that you didn't have to scramble. Take my word for it- once you're in residency no one knows squat about your med school academic record or what spot on your rank list you matched at. It's a chance to start fresh and make good (or bad!) impressions. Use the opportunity to your advantage.
                   

                  SuFiBB

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                    Originally posted by medres
                    SuFiBB- I'm a chief resident in an IM program and I was very involved in the interviewing/ranking process. Most programs offer interviews to a lot of IM categorical candidates- they have to. There are so many programs for candidates to choose from. ERAS allows you to screen for board scores, med schools and some other very basic parameters, and most programs offer interviews based on that inital screen. I'm not sure what your "red flags" were, but my guess is that is what knocked you down (or off) program's rank lists. Big red flags for my program, for example, was failing Step 1 or 2, failing a clinical rotation, or unexplained time off/leave of absence (that's a biggie).

                    At any rate, give yourself a pat on the back for being smart enough to rank enough programs that you didn't have to scramble. Take my word for it- once you're in residency no one knows squat about your med school academic record or what spot on your rank list you matched at. It's a chance to start fresh and make good (or bad!) impressions. Use the opportunity to your advantage.

                    wow thanks for that word of encouragement. did you ever think about coaching. yeah for the past 24 hours I've been a big baby about this. but now that I have had a chance to cool off I appreciate what I have as well as the opportunity to start fresh. I've had to live with these god darn red flags for years now (these red flags are similar to what you were refering to, but i got a lot of them) and now its nice to start an aspect of my career my these flags are erased. these flags have been a monkey on my back for years. maybe its like joey galloway going to dallas. you know sometimes we need a fresh start with a new team. I am lucky that I got drafted and I don't have to be a rookie free agent. hey sounds like you have good advice to offer, there are other people in the chat room that could use your advice and may be you could post more responses to put your additional years of experience to good use. I am happy to going where I am going, otherwise I wouldn't have ranked it. thanks again man and I plan on having a 1,000 yard season.:D
                     
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                    SuFiBB

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                      Originally posted by zinjanthropus
                      especially if the football analogies are not accurate! (joey galloway went to tampa bay FROM dallas)

                      alright I get it already. you guys are missing my point. my point is is that I am very much looking forward to my residency because of the offer of a brand new fresh start. I for one am looking forward to the start of next season.
                       

                      ubiquitous

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                        Originally posted by medres
                        SuFiBB- I'm a chief resident in an IM program and I was very involved in the interviewing/ranking process. Most programs offer interviews to a lot of IM categorical candidates- they have to. There are so many programs for candidates to choose from. ERAS allows you to screen for board scores, med schools and some other very basic parameters, and most programs offer interviews based on that inital screen. I'm not sure what your "red flags" were, but my guess is that is what knocked you down (or off) program's rank lists. Big red flags for my program, for example, was failing Step 1 or 2, failing a clinical rotation, or unexplained time off/leave of absence (that's a biggie).

                        Medres,

                        Why is a leave of absence/unexplained time off such a big red flag? If you explain why you took time off, does that remedy the situation or not? Just curious.
                         

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                          Originally posted by ubiquitous
                          Medres,

                          Why is a leave of absence/unexplained time off such a big red flag? If you explain why you took time off, does that remedy the situation or not? Just curious.

                          Faculty have told me that taking time off is a red flag, particularly if you spend the year off at the beach, because it brings your dedication towards your career in medicine into question. The resident a programs doesn't want is a resident who starts a program but who doesn't finish it, it can create a lot of havoc within the program with finding someone to cover for that person. If you take the year off doing something medically related, like research, then it can be a plus. However, I have heard of that some PD's don't even like it when students take time off to do community service in medicine in third world countries; they'd prefer that you dedicate your time towards learning medicine here in the US. But that's just some PD's, other PD's seem to think that kind of stuff builds charector and adds uniqueness to an applicant too.
                           

                          edinOH

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                            Originally posted by zinjanthropus
                            especially if the football analogies are not accurate! (joey galloway went to tampa bay FROM dallas)

                            For what it's worth, I think Dallas got a much better deal in Johnson than Tampa got in Galloway.
                             

                            SuFiBB

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                              first off, EM is bazillion times more competitive than IM so I hardly think mathcing at your #10 EM choice is the same thing. matching anywhere for EM is great considering the competitive nature of the field, so congratulation to your lab partner.

                              second off, Keyshawn will not be able to catch anything from quincy carter so it will be another season of Keyshawn crying. At least Galloway is a team player.
                               

                              SuFiBB

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                                Originally posted by drchris71
                                SuFiBB,
                                Were you this freaked out during your interviews...if so that might explain it also. Not trying to insult you but some people just get overexcited in pressure situations.

                                No it wasn't that. My application had some serious red flags. it seems PD's are willing to invite you with these red flags and will give you a chance to explain them. but the red flags are what they are and I think that is what disqualified me from the selection. I wasn't freaked out during my interviews, I was confident that people would look past my red flags but I became freaked out when I learned on match day that that wasn't the case. but I am not freaked out anymore because I am looking forward to residency and a fresh new start putting all this stuff behind me. thanks for your question
                                 
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                                irlandesa

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                                  Originally posted by Masonator
                                  Dare we ask what the red flags were?

                                  I wouldn't mind knowing, at least vaguely, b/c I'm starting to get nervous that I may have some of these same red flags! I had a slump in my clinical grades (2 Passes in a row and 1 more likely in OB/GYN, ouch) this year which I pulled out of recently, and off to a strong start in my Medicine rotation (intend to apply in IM), and my Step 1 was v.good, but still concerned. Have some very good written comments from Psych and FM on my evals and usually get strong letters when I need them. Please post here or PM me if you would feel more uncomfortable. If not, OK too.
                                   

                                  SuFiBB

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                                    Originally posted by irlandesa
                                    I wouldn't mind knowing, at least vaguely, b/c I'm starting to get nervous that I may have some of these same red flags! I had a slump in my clinical grades (2 Passes in a row and 1 more likely in OB/GYN, ouch) this year which I pulled out of recently, and off to a strong start in my Medicine rotation (intend to apply in IM), and my Step 1 was v.good, but still concerned. Have some very good written comments from Psych and FM on my evals and usually get strong letters when I need them. Please post here or PM me if you would feel more uncomfortable. If not, OK too.

                                    I am not sure what you are worry about but as mentioned earlier in the thread by a chief resident who is active in his/her respective residency selection process, red flags include taking time off, failing and/or repeating rotations, failing or getting below 200 or 190 on step 1. but this is what you need to do, if you can take step 2 during your 4th year early enough so that the selection committee has records of your passing score in hand before they have their selection meeting, that would be huge. most committees meet in february to finalize their rank list so taking the step 2 by the end of december or the beginning of january so that your scores are present by that meeting, that would be huge. many programs won't even interview candidates until their step 2 scores are submitted so taking it by october so that you can get invited to the november interviews would be huge too. please note this is a generalization and many programs will consider you without step 2 scores but if you have red flags or deficiencies in your application then passing step 2 by early in your 4th year would serve you well. however if you have a stellar application as is then may be waiting to take step 2 may not hurt. but if you have the above red flags on your application then some programs may want assurance that you can pass step 2 because some programs want the first two steps passed prior to matriculation in their residencies and so they may be worried that you may not be able to pass step 2 by that time if you have already not taken the test by then. that's my thoughts. tell me what you think
                                     

                                    irlandesa

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                                      Originally posted by SuFiBB
                                      I am not sure what you are worry about but as mentioned earlier in the thread by a chief resident who is active in his/her respective residency selection process, red flags include taking time off, failing and/or repeating rotations, failing or getting below 200 or 190 on step 1. but this is what you need to do, if you can take step 2 during your 4th year early enough so that the selection committee has records of your passing score in hand before they have their selection meeting, that would be huge. most committees meet in february to finalize their rank list so taking the step 2 by the end of december or the beginning of january so that your scores are present by that meeting, that would be huge. many programs won't even interview candidates until their step 2 scores are submitted so taking it by october so that you can get invited to the november interviews would be huge too. please note this is a generalization and many programs will consider you without step 2 scores but if you have red flags or deficiencies in your application then passing step 2 by early in your 4th year would serve you well. however if you have a stellar application as is then may be waiting to take step 2 may not hurt. but if you have the above red flags on your application then some programs may want assurance that you can pass step 2 because some programs want the first two steps passed prior to matriculation in their residencies and so they may be worried that you may not be able to pass step 2 by that time if you have already not taken the test by then. that's my thoughts. tell me what you think

                                      thanks for your input..I don't have any of the red flags as defined by the chief resident, but I do agree that taking Step 2 early will be helpful in countering that string of Pass grades in clinical courses. Assuming I get assigned to the schedule I want via the 4th year lottery system, I plan to take Step 2 in early September after I've had my Med Sub-I and ER rotations. best of luck to you in your new residency program.
                                       
                                      Originally posted by SuFiBB
                                      I wasn't freaked out during my interviews, I was confident that people would look past my red flags but I became freaked out when I learned on match day that that wasn't the case.

                                      But at least you DID match...not one of your top 3 picks, to be sure, but to a program that you at least liked enough to rank, no?
                                       
                                      Originally posted by irlandesa
                                      I had a slump in my clinical grades (2 Passes in a row and 1 more likely in OB/GYN, ouch) this year which I pulled out of recently, and off to a strong start in my Medicine rotation (intend to apply in IM), and my Step 1 was v.good, but still concerned.

                                      Wait...your "red flags" were the fact that you passed 2 rotations in a row (as opposed to honoring them, I'm assuming?) And you did well on Step 1 AND have great letters? :confused:

                                      In that case, I'm screwed! :(
                                       

                                      Twiki

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                                        Originally posted by Blade28
                                        Wait...your "red flags" were the fact that you passed 2 rotations in a row (as opposed to honoring them, I'm assuming?) And you did well on Step 1 AND have great letters? :confused:


                                        Ha, ha! I was kind of amused at that one, too. It sure seems like a lot of people on these boards try to toot their own horn, but disguise it as concern about their "poor performance".
                                         

                                        irlandesa

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                                          Originally posted by Twiki
                                          Ha, ha! I was kind of amused at that one, too. It sure seems like a lot of people on these boards try to toot their own horn, but disguise it as concern about their "poor performance".

                                          not intended as such at all.. the reason I am concerned is that our school grades H/HP/P/LP/F for years 3-4, and I have been told (albeit by SDN overachievers) that a grade of "P" is often equal to a "C" on a letter grade scale. Think about it, 2 or possibly 3 C's in a row, doesn't look so hot when you think of it that way does it? and I have yet to honor anything (though I think I might pull it off in Medicine, KOW), 1 HP in Psych (I was told that very few get Honors b/c the shelf is not easy but don't quite believe it) and an HP in Family Practice. one person on here from my school wrote that people who are "ridiculously bad on the wards" are the ones who tend to get passes. I don't even know if I will get spectacular letters, but I'd guess that they'd be relatively strong based on past experience. who even knows at this point. I just want to get a residency somewhere where there are decent facilities, nice, well-educated residents who speak English well, and good opportunities in many different areas. I don't want to toot my own horn; I just want good training where I will feel comfortable. Oh, and my Step 1 was <235, which is considered "average" and mediocre by a # of people on here. What-ever.:rolleyes: I have no doubt that now some people on here will take the opposite approach and flame me for being a "failure in the clinical years due to poor interpersonal skills." Just can't win..
                                           

                                          SuFiBB

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                                            Originally posted by irlandesa
                                            not intended as such at all.. the reason I am concerned is that our school grades H/HP/P/LP/F for years 3-4, and I have been told (albeit by SDN overachievers) that a grade of "P" is often equal to a "C" on a letter grade scale. Think about it, 2 or possibly 3 C's in a row, doesn't look so hot when you think of it that way does it? and I have yet to honor anything (though I think I might pull it off in Medicine, KOW), 1 HP in Psych (I was told that very few get Honors b/c the shelf is not easy but don't quite believe it) and an HP in Family Practice. one person on here from my school wrote that people who are "ridiculously bad on the wards" are the ones who tend to get passes. I don't even know if I will get spectacular letters, but I'd guess that they'd be relatively strong based on past experience. who even knows at this point. I just want to get a residency somewhere where there are decent facilities, nice, well-educated residents who speak English well, and good opportunities in many different areas. I don't want to toot my own horn; I just want good training where I will feel comfortable. Oh, and my Step 1 was <235, which is considered "average" and mediocre by a # of people on here. What-ever.:rolleyes: I have no doubt that now some people on here will take the opposite approach and flame me for being a "failure in the clinical years due to poor interpersonal skills." Just can't win..

                                            I think the key to a large facility is your performance in the sub-I and your step 2 scores.
                                            good luck
                                             

                                            beezar

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                                              I don't think residencies put as much weight into clinical grades as you might think. While all honors is of course a big plus, mostly passes isn't detrimental. Schools vary greatly in the % of the class they give passes/high passes/honors. Some schools mostly give out high passes as the average. Others give mostly passes as the average. Then again, it varies according to the rotation and the attendings.

                                              I think most residencies realize this large variation in clinical grades, so I wouldn't worry too much. Much much much more important are Step I, letters of rec, interviews. (but of course, finishing #1 in your class doesn't hurt). Even though Step I is such a crappy measure of clinical performance, what other standardized thing is there to compare applicants?
                                               

                                              joedogma

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                                                I agree with beezar. The school I attend only gives out honors, pass, or fail and usually only the top 10% or so gets honors. I think (and hope:p ) that LORs and board scores are generally weighed more heavily. With that said however, I do think that failing a clinical rotation would be much more detrimental than a low board score. Of course honors on your transcript are great but to think that grades of "pass" on your transcipt as red flags is incorrect. MOST applications would bleed red if this were the case...
                                                 

                                                Masonator

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                                                None of your goddamn business!
                                                  All though your arguements are logical, getting passes does hurt your application when you are a 3rd year. Believe me, as someone who has been through the match you want to avoid passes as much as possible. They really hurt for big rotations like medicine and surgery. Passes in subIs are also killers as well. One pass during your 3rd year won't kill you, but more then one will really start to drag you down. Don't lull yourself into a false sense of security, and work your ass off to ensure that you at least get a high pass in your rotations.

                                                  I got a pass in peds, but I'm going into surgery so it isn't a big deal.

                                                  Getting a pass in the specialty that you want to go into is also a kiss of death.
                                                   

                                                  Twiki

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                                                    Ok, look. I didn't mean to come across as harsh. Obviously, different schools place a different meaning on "pass". My school is one that only gives honors to the top 10% of the class. Everyone else gets a pass, which is of course not considered a "red flag" by anyone with any sense at all because, come on, that's 90% of the class. You say that at your school, since there is also a grade of "high pass", a "pass" is generally below average, I guess I can't argue with you. After all, I am not at your school. But I would be really, really surprised if any residency director is going to pay close attention to the difference between a "pass" at school A that has H/P/F vs. a "pass" at school B that has H/HP/P/LP/F. And by the way, I HAVE already gone through match. At interviews the PDs would occasionally comment on honors in certain courses, but not one person ever asked me: "So why only a "pass" in internal med, surgery, etc?" Not one. I had my fair share of "just passes". Incidentally, I got my first choice in the match.

                                                    Now let me put to rest your insecurity about what you called your "mediocre" board score. I happened to see in another thread that you said it was 233, is that right? If you use the average board score of 216 (which it was in 2003) and a standard devation of 20, then a score of 233 is calculated to be at the 85th percentile. (This is a percentile, different from the 2 digit score they also give you.) That means that you did better than 85 percent of all the people taking boards that year. That is not "average" or "mediocre", regardless of what a number of misguided people on this board will try to tell you. And it is absolutely, positively not a "red flag"! Especially not when you are applying to internal medicine. So please stop worrying about it.

                                                    Peace.
                                                     

                                                    Goober

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                                                      Originally posted by Masonator
                                                      All though your arguements are logical, getting passes does hurt your application when you are a 3rd year. Believe me, as someone who has been through the match you want to avoid passes as much as possible. They really hurt for big rotations like medicine and surgery. Passes in subIs are also killers as well. One pass during your 3rd year won't kill you, but more then one will really start to drag you down. Don't lull yourself into a false sense of security, and work your ass off to ensure that you at least get a high pass in your rotations.

                                                      I got a pass in peds, but I'm going into surgery so it isn't a big deal.

                                                      Getting a pass in the specialty that you want to go into is also a kiss of death.

                                                      Well I think it is highly school dependent. At my school only 10% got honors and there were no High passes only H/P/F. I got mostly passes (including radiology which was a 4 week 3rd year rotation at my school) with a few honors in my third year. I matched in my #1 choice in Rads:cool:
                                                       

                                                      rice

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                                                        Originally posted by Goober
                                                        Well I think it is highly school dependent. At my school only 10% got honors and there were no High passes only H/P/F. I got mostly passes (including radiology which was a 4 week 3rd year rotation at my school) with a few honors in my third year. I matched in my #1 choice in Rads:cool:

                                                        At my school it's probably around 1/3 get honors in clinical rotations; but it was a pretty competitive school so that still made it hard to get honors. (Grades were also H/HP/P/F). Anyway, I also ended up with mostly passes, an honors (in FP), and a couple high passes. I didn't match in ophtho, but that was likely due to my low Step I (about 1 SD below the mean). My letters were okay, 1 of them I got to read was great but the other 2 probably weren't stellar. Hmm, I thought the interviews went pretty good, but I think they tell you what you want to hear so it's hard to gauge how well you do.

                                                        Honestly, it's hard to quantify what people look for; it depends on specialty and particular program as well. Generally, I believe that clinical performance, Step I, and letters give you a fighting chance, and the interview helps to seal the deal. By the way, I took a year after graduation to do ophtho research, got much stronger letters, and also worked on my interviewing skills some, got double the interviews but still didn't match...though I heard I was very close at several places. I also interviewed for IM and matched in my top 3 there, so at least I'm not stuck doing another year of research (which in retrospect probably didn't help me anyway cause I already had the cards stacked against me).
                                                         

                                                        rice

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                                                          Originally posted by Masonator
                                                          Since we are comparing everything, I want to add that the school you come from is important as well. A pass at Harvard is worth more then a pass at an unknown state school. Not that they give people passes at Harvard.

                                                          I wish I could agree with you on that statement, but I cannot as I went to a top 10 school, so that's not too far from Harvard...Well I shot myself in the foot in too many other ways so I can only blame myself.
                                                           
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