MBA vs. MHA- the showdown

[score12905]

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I know that a MHA is a fairly new degree when compared to the standard MBA but which one is better suited for a physician executive planning on staying within the field of medicine but not practicing medicine full time?

What are the advantages/disadvantages for an MD/MBA? What about MD/MHA?

Cornell has a really good MHA program that has been around since the 1950's. The information that they sent me is interesting and makes me wonder if it is a better suited program for MDs. Are the job opportunities the same for both?

I am comparing an Ivy MHA or an Ivy MBA.

 

[ambientbaby]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluejay68
There are plenty of posts here for what careers are available to MD/MBA's; in my opinion, the MHA really locks you into provider management/hospital administration, so if you are very confident that your career will never stray from this path, it may be a good option (although the trend for physician executives seems to be more MD/MBA than MD/MHA these days, and the MHA people tend to be administrative types only; however, I have little MHA knowledge, so please speak up if someone out there has more experience with this degree).

The MBA is a much more broad degree, (generally not even healthcare specific, although you can "major" in healthcare management in many programs). If you think consulting or finance-related jobs may be interesting, the MBA will give you a great background and an MHA will add much less value.

Quote:
I was in the same situation as the OP when I first started looking into getting a degree in business--weighing my options regarding MBA vs. MHA.

Healthcare administrators I talked to reiterated much of bluejay68's comments and felt the MBA was the degree to get (of course these people were MBAs). The MBA is a degree that generalizes information which makes it applicable to a variety of business situations, therefore it is more versatile.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I'll be very general here ... MBA is the more general degree as stated above. If you want to go into something outside of the hospital or similar setting or practice medicine then MBA is probably your best bet. MHA I think would be a great asset for doctors who want to gravitate to the Department Head, CMO, CFO, CEO or other similar positions. The MHA is a concentrated degree in healthcare while the MBA is more general for business in general with a few classes for the health care management requirement (usually 3-4 for most avg schools).

Now something like Penn's MBA in healthcare (or I'm sure other Ivy's) are more focused programs as well as more intense. You'd probably get a top notch education. I would compare the curriculum for both and see which suits your needs better. They both would be fantastic to add to your resume.

 

[score12905]

so i looked up more information about the MHA program i was interested in. they have a combined md/mha program that is 5 years long and it was recently ranked 5th in the country.

i read an article that said, "Higher increases in median compensation were seen in CEOs, presidents and medical directors with MMM degrees compared to those with MBAs. MMM medical directors now earn more than those with MBAs"
from http://www.cejkasearch.com/news/physician-compensation-survey.html.

would an MHA degree count under the MMM category?

so my next questions are:
what kind of salary would an md/mha make initially? (Right out of school with no residency)
do you have to do a residency to land a good job?
if i did the mba instead of mha, would it be easier to get a job right out of school?

Basically, if you need some experience and have to work, why wouldn't you just stay as a specialist? whats the benefit of doing residency, working as a physician and then going back to healthcare bus.? it seems counterintuitive.


Also, for everyone who thinks an MBA is a better degree, what about a top 5 MHA program like the one that i am looking at? chances are that most md's won't get in a top 5 MBA school so i see this as really unique opp.

there you go, reply away!

 

[tcp03]

I'm currently a first year medical student, but I have a bachelor of science in marketing and am also interested in incorporating a master's level business education into my background. I must tell you that credentials only take you so far in the business world (different than academia where it's all about credentials). By this I mean, if you want to work for a bio-tech company and use your science background (M.D/D.O)...well then it really dosen't matter which masters you receive...although without a doubt the MBA is the most prestigous in the business world and is the most widely known. In a scientific role, you'll only need a modest business background, if any, because you are there to act as a "translator" between medical and business practioners (medical/ surgical sales, drug rep, etc). However, if you plan on running a hospital or doing something more business oriented, you must realize that you will be out matched if you don't have proven business experience (simply saying "I'm an MHA, MBA, MMM.....but I have no actual business experience" won't land you these non-science based business positons just like having an M.D. with little experience won't qualify you to become the head of a dept or chief of staff).

My humble opinion:

-Define goals......what do you want to do with your degree?
(If you want non-healthcare/science administration, I would get some real world experience first because business executives tend to talk about how physicians tend to be terrible at business and how they tend to be difficult to work with....offset this false generalization with practicle and tangible experience).

-Realize that an MHA and MMM lock you into the medical profession (generally speaking) so if you pursue these specialized degrees, be sure that this is the role that you would be happy with.

-once you have defined a goal...get the most specialized degree you can in that area. If healthcare, get an MBA in healthcare management (or MHA, MMM...I'd go with the MBA though as the MMM/MHA tend to be more clinically oriented - ex. chief of staff) and gain real world experience in these fields. If non healthcare/science, definitly get the MBA as opposed to the MHA/MMM degrees and specialize from there (IT, project management, finance, etc)....and if you're not sure what you want to do or want to leave yourself the option to change fields...get a general MBA.

-Lastly, do what makes YOU happy!

Sorry that was long, but I hope It helped. Good luck in the future!

 

[DrMojorisin]

As aforementioned, MBA can do everything MHA can do and then some. MHA gets more specialized training in the unique problems of healthcare, but you will learn about those areas during M.D. training, thus MBA is the usually preferred choice for M.D.'s with an interest in business.

Unless you already have M.D., it is hard to see far enough ahead to know that it is safe to go ahead and close some doors (as you would with MHA vs. MBA).

 

[DrJosephKim]

Consider some of the programs endorsed by the ACPE (physician executives). The MMM can be more valuable from a practical standpoint if you're a physician executive. However, if you think you may wish to venture into other healthcare industries, then an MBA may carry more practical value.

Look into the ACPE and you'll find some valuable information.

 

[Lint007]

What are the jobs prospects for someone who completes an M.D., then goes on to get either an M.B.A. or an M.H.A. without completing a medical residency? Is this a common scenario?

 

[rysa4]

I'll just share my experience. I was already in health care administration when I decided to enroll in an MBA program. My thinking was that the knowledge would support what I already am doing, and open some new bridges and ideas to make me more effective in my role.

And that's what has happened over the past couple of years. About 80% of what I have learned in the MBA coursework is directly relevant and helpful to my work. And I much prefer the general business knowledge, although a surprising amount of textbook examples derive from health care case scenarios. It helps in dealings with a multitude of external business parties related to my work.

An MHA may be equally beneficial - I do know one MBA-MHA from the University of Houston program and have had a brief chat with him exactly on this topic.

I do think that you have to truly enjoy your work and view it almost as a hobby than something you are obligated to do to be most effective. I don't ever think or worry about the money or the highest salary and all of that that I read here; I think that that is the wrong focus entirely. In general that focus leads to a lower level of excellence compared to the ones who enjoy their work for more than just the money. Also, a lot of it is what people think of you and your work, and your experience; very little of it is about the degree you have.

 

[MOHS_01]

I'll just share my experience. I was already in health care administration when I decided to enroll in an MBA program. My thinking was that the knowledge would support what I already am doing, and open some new bridges and ideas to make me more effective in my role.

And that's what has happened over the past couple of years. About 80% of what I have learned in the MBA coursework is directly relevant and helpful to my work. And I much prefer the general business knowledge, although a surprising amount of textbook examples derive from health care case scenarios. It helps in dealings with a multitude of external business parties related to my work.

An MHA may be equally beneficial - I do know one MBA-MHA from the University of Houston program and have had a brief chat with him exactly on this topic.

I do think that you have to truly enjoy your work and view it almost as a hobby than something you are obligated to do to be most effective. I don't ever think or worry about the money or the highest salary and all of that that I read here; I think that that is the wrong focus entirely. In general that focus leads to a lower level of excellence compared to the ones who enjoy their work for more than just the money. Also, a lot of it is what people think of you and your work, and your experience; very little of it is about the degree you have.

Idyllic drivel...

Success = (ability + motivation)^work ethic

Motivation comes in many varieties and flavors; the source of the motivation is irrelevant as long as the necessary driving force is present. One can be motivated out of "joy", financial incentive, or the simple desire to be better than the next guy. Again, it really matters not.

Knowing your sh** makes you better than the guy who does not; combine that with the willingness to work and you get ahead. "Joy" is a state of mind...

 

[rysa4]

Idyllic drivel...

Success = (ability + motivation)^work ethic

Motivation comes in many varieties and flavors; the source of the motivation is irrelevant as long as the necessary driving force is present. One can be motivated out of "joy", financial incentive, or the simple desire to be better than the next guy. Again, it really matters not.

Knowing your sh** makes you better than the guy who does not; combine that with the willingness to work and you get ahead. "Joy" is a state of mind...

Thanks for your kindness. It's easy to see which category you are in! Fortunately, many of the world's top CEOs don't agree with you.

You are correct that motivation comes in many flavors, and not all of those are healthy. Whether its an Enron or a Madoff, its obvious that the type of motivation people have does make a huge difference in both their outcomes and those for their various ventures so you are factually not even close to being correct that the flavor of motivation doesn't matter.

My post isn't so much for you, as I am sure you will want to continue with the vitriol, but for more thoughtful readers who might actually consider otherwise so as to not be misguided by your post, which is a sad thing and exactly the attitude that should be avoided.

 

[MOHS_01]

That was not vitriol -- at least not vitriol in the world in which I live. That was statement of fact. Blunt and candid, perhaps, but not vitriol. Referencing commentary from uberelite CEO's and professing it as gospel denotes a possible under appreciation of human nature; one's perspective changes depending upon where they are in life. The "up and comer" is always hungrier and has a different set of motivating factors than those already sitting at the pinnacle, much like the 80 year old man has a much more reflective outlook on life than the 30 year old with two to four mouths to feed and staring at a mountain of debt (not to mention the annexation of property rights by a misguided public and political system) and systematic barriers to success.

There is no denying that "loving what you do" makes the job more pleasurable, but short fat boy can just love the living **** out of basketball and he will never be Michael Jordan. Even using your own analogy -- do you honestly believe that the majority of CEO's love their product? Ignoring techno nerds, who are in the most minimal of minorities, do you believe the CEO's got into their company out of professed love of hobby? Or is it more likely that they love the game. They enjoy the challenge. They like being better than the next guy. They are, fundamentally, financially driven competitive spirits. If you do not believe the latter, you are sorely mistaken. Take their money away and replace it with a pauper's wage and see where the love gets you.

For the record, there was nothing "unkind" about disagreeing and opining on the relevance of the emotional and sentimental non-factors in your post. Life is not always wrapped in whipped cream and served on a delicate platter. Thicker skin may prove helpful in the business world should you continue to take every rebuttal and disagreement to heart, hurting you so...

 

[MOHS_01]

...

You are correct that motivation comes in many flavors, and not all of those are healthy. Whether its an Enron or a Madoff, its obvious that the type of motivation people have does make a huge difference in both their outcomes and those for their various ventures so you are factually not even close to being correct that the flavor of motivation doesn't matter.

The error in this philosophical position is that you assume motivating factors based in personal betterment are necessarily and by definition deleterious to any and all counter parties. This is simply untrue. A moral person will respect the law of the land as well as do no sinister acts unto another. What you are describing is a flaw of the individual -- not a flaw of the motivation. Warren Buffet did not amass his empire because he thought picking companies' bones in down times was a fun thing to do; he did not enjoy massive influxes of outside capital because everyone just loved watching him "have fun", etc.

Madoff was a crook. They both modeled SS and Medicare -- of course they were crooks and destined to crash and burn. They learned from the best, and their failings were at the individual character level.

For what it's worth, a balance must be struck in everything. If one is purely motivated by greed, they will likely not be all that "successful" in life. They may get rich, but still will not be successful as defined by most people. It is inappropriate, however, to dismiss financial incentive as a proper source of motivation.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Just wanted to bump this thread, as the medical school I was recently accepted too offers an MHA program and I have always been interested in the business/executive side of medicine. I had a few questions ... if that's alright:

1. People were asking earlier, but didn't seem to get an answer ... what can one do straight out of medical school with no residency but an MD/DO and a Masters in some sort of business management (MHA or MBA)? Is there a big market for this sort of thing?

2. I know that people are saying the general MBA is better, but is there really anything in the healthcare field that an MBA could do, but a MHA couldn't?

3. If so, with regards to question 2, what are the ideal positions for someone with an MHA.

Thanks. Sorry if I seem misinformed on the subject. I'm currently speaking with people who run the program, but just trying to find out everything I can.

 

[michaelrack]

1. People were asking earlier, but didn't seem to get an answer ... what can one do straight out of medical school with no residency but an MD/DO and a Masters in some sort of business management (MHA or MBA)?

.

You can do the same thing you can without an MD/DO

 

[JaggerPlate]

You can do the same thing you can without an MD/DO

Touche.


Does anyone have any info regarding MHAs working for insurance companies (ie reviewing cases for the company to give certain permission or deny)? Part time or full time??

 

[lorain]

Just wanted to bump this thread, as the medical school I was recently accepted too offers an MHA program and I have always been interested in the business/executive side of medicine. I had a few questions ... if that's alright:

1. People were asking earlier, but didn't seem to get an answer ... what can one do straight out of medical school with no residency but an MD/DO and a Masters in some sort of business management (MHA or MBA)? Is there a big market for this sort of thing?

2. I know that people are saying the general MBA is better, but is there really anything in the healthcare field that an MBA could do, but a MHA couldn't?

3. If so, with regards to question 2, what are the ideal positions for someone with an MHA.

Thanks. Sorry if I seem misinformed on the subject. I'm currently speaking with people who run the program, but just trying to find out everything I can.

as i stated in the other thread, i talked to a hosp. admin guy as he is a regular at my pharmacy....he told me that the mba is better b/c its broader and he says the mba guys understand the finances better than mha and mph students

 

[JaggerPlate]

as i stated in the other thread, i talked to a hosp. admin guy as he is a regular at my pharmacy....he told me that the mba is better b/c its broader and he says the mba guys understand the finances better than mha and mph students

Hey, thanks for the reply. This MBA a little broader and better statement seems to be the general consensus, but I have a few issues with it (though I'm young and naive): 1. It seems like most of the guys/girls who say it are MBA's themselves, 2. The med school I'm attending offers the MHA program which is inexpensive, accredited, and catered around med school, and 3. I feel like business, in all aspects, is about who you know/networking. I don't think someone with mad connections and who networks well with an MHA is going to loose out on a lot of opportunities compared to someone with an MBA in healthcare, simply because they have the MBA. Dunno though, and thanks again for the reply.

 

[lorain]

i think if you have a medical degree of some sort, go for the mba

if you come from a non medical degree, then go for the mha

1) that is a true statement. the guys ive talked to say the mba people understand the #s better
2) that sounds like a good combo program, i would do it
3) totally agreed...but if mba, you can be more broader...aka work in big pharma. i suppose its on a individual basis, ie what you prefer

 

[JaggerPlate]

i think if you have a medical degree of some sort, go for the mba

if you come from a non medical degree, then go for the mha

1) that is a true statement. the guys ive talked to say the mba people understand the #s better
2) that sounds like a good combo program, i would do it
3) totally agreed...but if mba, you can be more broader...aka work in big pharma. i suppose its on a individual basis, ie what you prefer

Yeah, I'm still doing research right now. I wouldn't be completely opposed to doing an MBA elsewhere if it was really going to open more doors. I tried to get a mentor though the site ... but I think the med/biz forums are a bit slow. Hahaha.

 

[lorain]

Yeah, I'm still doing research right now. I wouldn't be completely opposed to doing an MBA elsewhere if it was really going to open more doors. I tried to get a mentor though the site ... but I think the med/biz forums are a bit slow. Hahaha.

its good in a way, cuz its a exclusive club....my mentor has become this md/mba admin at the local hospital where i work...he offers good advice and he always tells me the key is flexibility, hence he likes mba

but if your med school offers mha, i would do it

 

[lorain]

As aforementioned, MBA can do everything MHA can do and then some. MHA gets more specialized training in the unique problems of healthcare, but you will learn about those areas during M.D. training, thus MBA is the usually preferred choice for M.D.'s with an interest in business.

Unless you already have M.D., it is hard to see far enough ahead to know that it is safe to go ahead and close some doors (as you would with MHA vs. MBA).

yea this post is spot on....imo, if you are in the HC already, aka MD,DO, OD, rph, RN, PA, etc you already know whats wrong with healthcare and have some basis of the HC system, hence a general mba imo is sufficient and your learning curve on the admin job would be less....but imo if you are non HC student, then go with MHA

 

[JaggerPlate]

but if your med school offers mha, i would do it

Seems to make the most sense and probably what I will end up doing.

 

[DOalchemist]

I've been looking into MBA or MHA programs to receive on top of DO. As I am interested in moving into admin/exec positions in healthcare. My ultimate goal would be to do admin/exec work international medical organization (probably non-profit).
Some business career people I've talked to have said that MBA's have become overrated because they are so common. In this case would the MHA make you stand out (positively) against MBA's?

 

[lorain]

I've been looking into MBA or MHA programs to receive on top of DO. As I am interested in moving into admin/exec positions in healthcare. My ultimate goal would be to do admin/exec work international medical organization (probably non-profit).
Some business career people I've talked to have said that MBA's have become overrated because they are so common. In this case would the MHA make you stand out (positively) against MBA's?

of course mba are common

but md/mba isnt

 

[michaelrack]

of course mba are common

but md/mba isnt

MD/MBA is becoming more and more common- I know several docs who have gotten an MBA on a part-time basis, while practicing medicine, either on-line or at a local university.

MD with an MBA from a top 20 business school is rare, however.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I've been looking into MBA or MHA programs to receive on top of DO. As I am interested in moving into admin/exec positions in healthcare. My ultimate goal would be to do admin/exec work international medical organization (probably non-profit).
Some business career people I've talked to have said that MBA's have become overrated because they are so common. In this case would the MHA make you stand out (positively) against MBA's?

Were in the same boat ... (DO + MHA or MBA)

 

[Cardiac]

What do the to execs at most hospitals tend to have? MD/MBA or just MD (or just MBA)?

 

[DOalchemist]

you've got good taste JaggerPlate

 

[mdtomhamd]

this is simple, if your not 100% sure you want to be in healthcare get the MBA, but if your not 100% sure you want to be in healthcare (ie MD) then don't take the spot from someone else in medical school. we are already in shortage of good doctors! and if you want to be rich you also are in the wrong field, although MD's make good money (well above ave.) you must be in the state of mind of helping the people not just making a buck at the expense of sick people! If healthcare leadership is your goal then MHA>>>>MBA, b/c MHA is basically an MBA specifically for healthcare. Most good jobs in this field will go to MD/MHA as more of us (MD's) start getting the degree as apposed to someone who just has an MBA or MHA w/o the MD. from what I have seen the MD is the most important part of the equation and if you do a combo MD/MHA program you aren't very marketable b/c you have no experience! how would you know how to run a hospital when you have never done the work and treated patients and delt with healthcare systems/insurance first hand! Many of the good programs wont even let you apply to get the MHA after your MD unless you have at least 2 years of clinical experience!

 

[mdtomhamd]

MD/MBA is becoming more and more common- I know several docs who have gotten an MBA on a part-time basis, while practicing medicine, either on-line or at a local university.

MD with an MBA from a top 20 business school is rare, however.

the only people who care where the degree is from, are the people who paid all the extra money to go to that school or other ivy leaque schools, as long as it is a respectable school (aka accredited and in US) it is much more important who you are and what your goals are. no one asks where a MD got his degree from!

 

[mdtomhamd]

What do the to execs at most hospitals tend to have? MD/MBA or just MD (or just MBA)?

I would say NOW most by far are MBA, but now that more and more MD's are getting MHA/MBA they will nearly all be MD/MHA or MD/MBA in the near future! the healthcare system is entirely built around the physician it just doesn't make since to not have them running the show!

 

[JaggerPlate]

if you do a combo MD/MHA program you aren't very marketable b/c you have no experience!

Umm you gain experience later??? If someone gets the MD/MHA at the same time, works in clinical medicine for 10 years and then applies for a job compared to someone who got the MD, worked in a clinical field for 8 years, then got the MHA and applied for the job ... what's the difference? I'd argue the first candidate is far more marketable actually, because they've worked with a management master's degree for 10 years and you've only worked with one for 2.

Though that could just be because I'm currently doing a DO/MHA program.

What's your background, I'm curious/trying to figure out more of the management/admin side of things as I go along.

 

[mdtomhamd]

I was replying to post that asked md/mha right out of school w/ no residency. I would say md 10 yrs out then mha vs. md/mha then practice 10 yrs would be pretty equal. either way when you work as md the management stuff is apart of everyday life, most medical directors are plain md's and dont have mha or mba nor are really required to. but if u get your md then want to get mha after most want you to have a couple years of experience before they will let you in which would seem to mean they like experience first then mha later but combo is easier for student but if you go work 10 yrs and then apply for md/mha position you will have likely forgotten a lot! I mean do you remember 8th grade history class?

 

[JaggerPlate]

I was replying to post that asked md/mha right out of school w/ no residency. I would say md 10 yrs out then mha vs. md/mha then practice 10 yrs would be pretty equal. either way when you work as md the management stuff is apart of everyday life, most medical directors are plain md's and dont have mha or mba nor are really required to. but if u get your md then want to get mha after most want you to have a couple years of experience before they will let you in which would seem to mean they like experience first then mha later but combo is easier for student but if you go work 10 yrs and then apply for md/mha position you will have likely forgotten a lot! I mean do you remember 8th grade history class?

No, but then again, I didn't plan on becoming a 19th century America historian straight out of 8th grade (hey, I do remember some of it).

What I mean by that is I do plan on utilizing my MHA degree as soon as possible. Like you said, I'm not sure how much I can do (with regards to consulting, admin, etc) right away, but I'll do my best, and I really don't think I'll forget it all in 8-10 years.

I also go back and forth on the idea of a residency. I think it's the smart thing to do, but a lot of the time I just want to do an internship and get going.

 

[genie123]

An MHA is an MBA, just most of your learning pertains to issues in the delivery of healthcare from A to Z. Pursuing an advanced degree (MBA or MHA) is an important step and will enlighten you on the principles of business in either case. If you would like to work in the healthcare industry, both degrees are adequate. Keep in mind that this is a starting point in your career. Figure it out as you go. Just because you have an MBA doesn't mean that you can work in any industry, you will need to have experience to advance.

Don't think that you can just list your degrees and you will automatically gain respect. Although, some schools do prepare you better and give you more tools to work with, in the business world, respect is earned when you can demonstrate your experience. I have met so many people that think just because they have an Ivy league MBA, they know everything. First, you need to be a hard worker, and take the initiative. You can learn as much as you need to by writing things down and going to the library, reading peer-reviewed journals to understand. Those are the people that get ahead in Business. Executives are often times under enormous pressure and they want people who can get the job done without having to babysit. If you can impress people in power and build credibility, you can network your way to the top. People have different strong points. Some are better with finance and some are better with people/operations, but successful people have strong work ethics.

You can always go back later in life, and its possible that you can get someone else to pay for it. I have an MHA and I always want to learn about everything. I am curious and always strive to do my best. Overall, do what makes you happy, if you hate what you do everyday, then the money will be less attractive.