Originally posted by crackerj
To summarise, according to what I have got so far, it seems that if you get +30 with the minimum of 8/8/8, you will have a very good chance to get into Aust. schools provided that you get more than the score of 3 in an interview (an interview in Australia (postgraduate) is graded as a scale of 1 to 5 with 1 being the highest and 5 being the lowest).
I don't think all the grad schools use a simple 1-5, but certainly some do. It may be that a mean or median interview score w/ 30P will give good odds (keep in mind that most the Aussie grad schools claim to weigh Writing Sample as much as the verbal and science scores, while US schools usually only look at the outliers).
It is very surprising that recently (correct me if I am wrong though), you need +30 to get into most of postgraduate Aust. schools. The admission requirement of Aust. schools is becoming equivalent to most of the med schools in the US (for example, the national 'matriculant' average in the US is 30, according to recent statistics).
I think the actual number should be viewed with caution -- the 30 is the best guess from students and applicants w/anecdotal evidence, as the schools are very secretive compared to the US schools about their admissions stats.
I think the best way to interpret the 30 is not that you *need* it, but that if it is accurate as a number, then like in the US, a 30 seems to do a good job of getting you in (assuming you didn't flop interview or wgpa), or to be more scientifically valid, that a 30P with average interview and average wGPA scores
would get you in. The actual number could be off a little, but I think has merit since it's in accordance with the observable trend (extrapolating from what students report for earlier years the perceived
increases in standards, applicants, etc.).
But, the scores trend is represented with few data points (few samples and few years); those early acceptances we know about this year are precisely those who you'd think would have higher scores; and who *ends up* in Australia in this year of seemingly record high applications has yet to be entirely seen. This could be the year that Aussie schools use the extra apps to focus on increasing the variance of interview scores (this would place more real weight onto interview over GPA, interestingly without even requiring a change from a 1-5 score system..think about it).
I think this may reflect that many people who took MCAT (mostly from North America) are coming to Australia.
Aside from MCAT takers, Singaporeans are also big this year. And there are many qualified ones.
I do not know whether the standard to get into Aust. med schools will become even higher from now after a few years.
I don't think it's a coincidence that US (and arguably UK) medical system policy is becoming more receptive to IMGs (e.g., USMLE for all, EBM and other equalizing standards propagating) and that many additional respectable offshore grad schools have opened their doors to foreigners in the past 7-8 years (both are arguably 'caused' by the Industry, which depends on many, many IMGs..potential schools and their governments then need only anticipate the need).
Also consider that for much of the West (and former territories!) outside of North America, 4-yr grad programs (e.g., in UK and Australia) are a relatively new concept and thus are just starting to catch on.. meaning scores will rise as marketing catches up (I have a lot of anecdotal evidence that says the Aust. schools could vastly improve their marketing) and as, for example, members of the Commonwealth wake up to the possibility that career change after high school is possible (similar reasoning applies as in the finding that it takes several years AFTER a recession starts before US med school applications rise).
But yes, I think scores for the better grad schools (e.g., most if not all in Australia) have nowhere to go but up.
For reference, however, while the MCAT standard in Aust. med schools is pretty much equivalent to the most of the US schools, the 'cut-off' GPA is still lower (5.5/7.0, which is 3.1/4.0, if converted to 4.0 scale).
GPA cutoff is not a uniformly applied term, so I'm not sure how it can be compared to what's found in the US. Do you mean a lower *average* unweighted GPA for those accepted (I'd agree with this)?
First, note that there are varying methods that the Aussie schools use to define (weighted) GPA (the number they actually
report), most commonly but not always by weighing later years more heavily, but with many applicants this gets overly complicated and the schools use 'other' methods. Because US schools alternatively report average *unweighted* gpa for acceptance and/or admittance, how each one weighs internally is also not known.
Second, Flinders, for example, has no wGPA cutoff per se, since it "officically" weighs 1/3 wGPA, 1/3 interview, 1/3 MCAT. Of course, this means the lower the wGPA, the higher the other two must be, so the question comes down to some potentially knowable statistic like GPA required for 50% or 90% chance of acceptance (all else being equal implied). However, having said that, Flinders veers somewhat from the 1/3 rule for GPA for int'l candidates, for the next reason:
Third, Australian schools have chosen to realize that comparing GPA across nations is all but impossible and so have decided instead to have a somewhat safe cutoff that rids only the worst achievers while relying more heavily on more standardized (or standardizable) methods as MCAT (another possible reason for the apparent quick rise) and highly structured interviews. US schools on the other hand don't report GPA scores for their int'l pools and surely have similar problems, with unknown solutions, for dealing with them.
Having said all that, Australian grad schools are starting to get a certain type of American (and likewise MCAT) candidate. Due to lack of total acceptance of the schools by American applicants (partly due to marketing, partly to newness, partly to lingering stigma and America-centrism, etc.), they seem to get many students who would not get into most US schools due to (relatively) LOW GPA. For example, a white student with a 3.1 but respectable MCATs (30) most likely won't get into one of the better US schools, and so may choose to go to Australia rather than to a ho-hum US school. Additionally, a WS score of `R` will help a lot in Australia but only a little in the US. As a result I'd bet that Australian schools have a smaller variance in numerical MCAT score than the typical US school (fewer super high scores, comparable median score), along with a lower average (unweighted) GPA.
But with trends as they appear, all the Aussie stats will continue to improve as the schools are accepted more and better students have fewer reasons not to venture abroad (e.g., when more of the world adjusts to grad programs, when all US docs have to do USMLE, etc.).
Of course, all this is just theory and conjecture.
-pitman
(j/k canberra isn't that bad)
) In US, we have the Accelerated medical programs in many schools, where an exceptional high school student can enter a specialized undergraduate program which will allow them to continue into a medical program after their second year in the special program (and they will be taking about 18 credit hours per semester, and must maintain a high GPA like 3.5+... which isn't really that high compared to many who apply to med school later! And they skip the MCAT). This would be similar to the Oz's 6 year programs in many ways, including the duration, and the fact that they go directly into a form of medical school from high school.