MCP Hahnemann: In Danger of Closing Down?

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MCP Hahnemann was once owned by Allegheny Health System-Philadelphia which declared bankruptcy and closed down in 1998. Tenet Healthcare Corporation and Drexel University stepped in to save the medical school and the hundreds of residents training under it. Supposedly their financial situation is now much more sound. I have not heard anything recently about the crisis there but do a web search for MCP Hahnemann and financial crisis and you will find lots of stories surrounding the near-closure of the school in 1998 and the scramble to find new places for all the residents (the medical students were going to be left in the cold it seemed).
 
Hi, as a student here for several years, I can assure you that the Allegheny crisis of 1998 is a distant memory. The hospitals have been in the black for years now, with no debt, and the med school itself is now in the black as of this year. We're scheduled to be merged formally into Drexel this summer (Drexel U. School of Medicine or something like that), a deal which is to be finalized by April 1st. So, the reason the above poster hasn't heard anything lately is, essentially "no news is good news."

Here's a link from the Philadelphia Inquirer, Feb. 11, 2002, that might flesh things out a bit as far as background goes.

<a href="http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/business/industries/healthcare/2647606.htm" target="_blank">http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/business/industries/healthcare/2647606.htm</a>
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by wbd161:
•Is MCP Hahnemann in danger of closing down? How come?•••••MCP Hahnemann is argueably one of the strongest philadelphia university systems at the moment from a financial perspective. They have made this dramatic turnaround in just two short years. Apparently Tenet has stepped up and really made some tangible changes that are not only reflected on the balance sheet, but also in terms of attracting name brand attendings to the university. They are currently the only 'for profit' hospital system in philadelphia and financially healthy. Penn, temple, and jefferson are not doing as well.
 
Jeff is doing well, but Temple isn't. My friend who is interviewing for rads said they bought out the contracts of most of their radiology attendings to hire younger guys for less money. Temple never really "thrives". Jeff is helped by their main hospital and their Main Line Health System, which is lucrative. They run their system similar to a for-profit system. Our system (Tenet Philadelphia) is pretty much at break-even for several years now. Tenet as a whole, however, made round $500 million nationally last year.
 
The link that was posted above said that one of the steps to get MCP back on its feet is cutting down on the number of attendings; it even said "it has more residents than it needs". Do you think we'll see a drop on the number of residency positions offered at MCP Hahnemann?
 
for med students making decisions about residency, knowledge of the financial state of the health system is important; for premeds choosing a medical school, this is not important. all of the philly schools will be around for a while.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by dingiswayo:
•for med students making decisions about residency, knowledge of the financial state of the health system is important; for premeds choosing a medical school, this is not important. all of the philly schools will be around for a while.•••••Are you insane!?

**** rolls downhill, man. If the quality of the resident teaching is substandard, then medical students doing their 3rd and 4th year rotations lose quite a bit of the hands-on experience they should be gaining during these years. Clinical experience is vital to determining residency options for the undecided medical student. Not everyone is blessed with a pre-med desire to go into a particular field. Certain people enter medical school with &lt;gasp!&gt; their minds open to all the possibilities.

The state of a health system can be acutely defined by the status of the residents. If the residents aren't happy (and the formula for happiness includes education, sense of being involved in care, hours worked, respect from colleagues, attention from attendings), then they're not going to be motivated to do anything other than show up, do their work, and leave. Show me a happy resident, and I'll show you a resident who is overwhelmingly ready to teach a medical student. An overworked unhappy resident is one who brushes off medical students.

I just disagree completely. EVERY medical student should be analyzing the status of the hospitals he is considering. One half of his education is linked to his clinical experience. Don't waste your money at an institution that won't teach an eager medical student.
 
I've never heard of any concerted effort to reduce the # of residents, they have a lot, I'll tell you that...I've re-read that article, and I don't see any reference to reducing # of residents. I know they've been talking about reducing the class size, which since I've been here has gone from 250 to 235. They're talking about getting it down to 175, but I highly doubt that will happen because of the loss of income from tuition. I could see at some point, the class size going to, say, 200.

The size of the residency programs, to my eyes, have stayed the same. I think the internal med program has 43 spots, for example...hasn't changed that I've noticed.

I think the happiness of the residents is important to your education. The levels of teaching I've gotten has varied from great, to bad, to, usually, somewhere in between (i.e. good). This is usually dependent on the attitude of the individual resident.
 
Originally posted by Proffit:

•••quote:••• I've never seen any hard data on this, but I had heard that Temple and Jeff were the two philly healthcare systems that are prospering. Got a link I could check out for more info? ••••When I interviewed at Jeff about two years ago they showed me a cover story from the Philadelphia Inquirer indicating they were the most solvent. Check the paper's archives for the article.

About MCP-Hahnemann: twice last year I heard that their IM residents were very unhappy with the program, and it is to my understanding talking to a resident who left last summer that 10 categorical interns left after completing the PGY-1 year. This number reflects approximately 20% of MCP-Hahnemann's residents. Rumors being what they are, if one is considering their IM program seriously, it would be extremely important to go the "horse's mouth" as it were and inquire about this.

Hope this helps.

Nu
 
Man oh man, that is bad news. Any idea why they left?
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by NuMD97:
•Originally posted by Proffit:

•••quote:••• I've never seen any hard data on this, but I had heard that Temple and Jeff were the two philly healthcare systems that are prospering. Got a link I could check out for more info? ••••When I interviewed at Jeff about two years ago they showed me a cover story from the Philadelphia Inquirer indicating they were the most solvent. Check the paper's archives for the article.

About MCP-Hahnemann: twice last year I heard that their IM residents were very unhappy with the program, and it is to my understanding talking to a resident who left last summer that 10 categorical interns left after completing the PGY-1 year. This number reflects approximately 20% of MCP-Hahnemann's residents. Rumors being what they are, if one is considering their IM program seriously, it would be extremely important to go the "horse's mouth" as it were and inquire about this.

Hope this helps.

Nu•••••NuMD,

As you know, an awful lot can and does change in two years in medicine. The simple fact is that MCPHU is prospering incredibly well under the stewardship of tenet. I know because I own the stock. I also do a lot of research on this sort of thing. Temple and Jeff are not doing as well as you suggest. In fact, both have significant financial hardship. And we all know about the hardships Penn is still submerged in. MCPHU is actually the most financially solvent university system in philadelphia at the moment. Their hospitals are full, and they continue to attract name brand attendings. They did lose some attendings during the bankruptcy, but my how things have changed in 3 short years.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by wbd161:
•Man oh man, that is bad news. Any idea why they left?•••••WBD,

I would suggest you not succumb to hearsay and horror stories. Residents leave any number of programs for a wide variety of reasons. Hahnemann is one of the largest programs around, so naturally the absolute number will be larger than other programs.

One thing that others have not realized is that Hahneman residents are about to experience an incredible upgrade in quality of life. There is not going to be ANY overnight call next year and beyond in deference to recent legislation that was passed. Temple, Jeff, and Penn will still be imposing overnight call and 36hr shifts on their residents. This alone will make MCP-Hu a much more attractive program. Unfortunately the news came out after rank lists were submitted this year, but next years' crop will benefit from the knowledge.
 
Klebsiella:

It wasn't two years ago that I heard this, but a mere eight months ago in late July [as well as the previous December from other residents at Hahnemann] at the termination of the internship year for the current class. Attrition is always part of every program, for sure, but not that large a number. As I also said in my earlier post, rumors being what they are, one should thoroughly investigate the reasons for what is going on there and make an informed decision accordingly.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by NuMD97:
•Klebsiella:

It wasn't two years ago that I heard this, but a mere eight months ago in late July [as well as the previous December from other residents at Hahnemann] at the termination of the internship year for the current class. Attrition is always part of every program, for sure, but not that large a number. As I also said in my earlier post, rumors being what they are, one should thoroughly investigate the reasons for what is going on there and make an informed decision accordingly.•••••NuMD,

If indeed you received this information 8 months ago, I'm afraid you were lied to downright. Certainly attendings at philly hospitals should and do know that MCP Hahnemann is prospering quite well, in fact the best of any of the hospital systems. Balance sheets are factual, easily studied entities. It appears others may have been on a smear campaign to promote their own program. Hahnemann is the most financially solvent university system in Philadelphia period. It seems the bankruptcy a few short years ago has stained the memory of many. The facts of the systems recovery are both remarkable and disturbing for competing systems, as Hahnemann is now the only for profit system in that area. They are doing exquisitely well, and this naturally breeds some air of competition.

I have a good friend in the program, third year, who shared with me recent results of their match, It seems they have a rather large core of MCP-Hu students staying this year. This is a very good barometer of a system's health. This program still retains many of the attendings that were around when it was an AOA only club, and it seems headed that way with meaningful improvements.

One other note piece of insight about residents leaving programs that my friend shared with me. ALL of the residents that left were FMG. It may be that this program isn't the best fit for an FMG, I cant be sure, but I am told that the AMG's do very very well, with rich fellowship opportunities of a big university system. With significantly more AMG's staying this year, it seems transfer numbers will trend towards zero.

Best of luck
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by mpp:
• I have not heard anything recently about the crisis there but do a web search for MCP Hahnemann and financial crisis and you will find lots of stories surrounding the near-closure of the school in 1998 and the scramble to find new places for all the residents (the medical students were going to be left in the cold it seemed).•••••The amount of misinformation on this forum is mind boggling. The lack of knowledge is bewildering. Medical students in US universities are NEVER EVER left out in the cold. The allopathic system has a pact in place that provides alternate locations of study should one university close down. Basically what would happen is students in a closed university are divied out for matriculation in allopathic programs that remain. In fact, this has happened before, and the students were simply placed at neighboring medical schools. So 'it would seem' that these students would have been assigned alternate medical schools to complete their training. This is a healthy policy that keeps the brotherhood of medical schools strong, and the medical training system during a particularly unfavorable financial climate viable.
 
Yes, Klebsiella, it's quite frustrating for me to try to talk about issues related to my school, based on either information related to four years ago...or some bizarre fabrication/rumour. Everything here is fine....I don't know for how many more years I'll have to say the same thing. It's dumbfounding.
 
Originally posted by Klebsiella:

•••quote:••• The allopathic system has a pact in place that provides alternate locations of study should one university close down. Basically what would happen is students in a closed university are divied out for matriculation in allopathic programs that remain. In fact, this has happened before, and the students were simply placed at neighboring medical schools. So 'it would seem' that these students would have been assigned alternate medical schools to complete their training. ••••Several years back I spoke to a program director at one of the hospitals outside of Philadelphia proper and she told me the history of how there own residency came to be when the Pediatrics program at Hahnemann was on the verge of closing. They, in effect, bailed out those residents to continue and terminate at the second program. I don't feel, as you suggest, it's "merely" a question of reassignment. Certainly this program director had no vested interest in convincing me of why they had this particular program in place, because ultimately Hahnemann's pediatrics program did indeed close, so the competition wasn't with Hahnemann. In any case, she was giving me a little of the history surrounding it, that's all. No matter how you sugar coat it, a program closing is a very serious matter, regardless of reassignment.

And as a side note: IMGs don't readily give up a categorical position in those kind of numbers either, assuming that ten did indeed leave from categorical positions. Most are truly grateful that they have garnered a coveted position in an American training program, and stay until completion of the residency.

I honestly don't know why folks would "lie" about this Hahnemann situation, especially since the conversation that I had was with interns at Hahnemann in December of 2000 and with a departing intern [ not an IMG, I might add] in the summer of 2001. This to me, appears to be a "red flag" coming from people who were in actual attendance at Hahnemann, not some "malignant" program director seeking fresh blood from Hahnemann's backyard, as it were.

I'm glad you hold strongly that Tenet has turned things around, enough so that you say you invested in its stock. Frankly, to me, you should then be satisfied and not worried about the depth of "misinformation" provided in this forum. But that fact alone, investing in Tenet, does make me wonder if that might just be coloring your own judgment a tad. Just a thought. 🙂

Again, let me once more reiterate, no one should take anyone's opinion as the "last word" [including my own, of course] on any matter of importance expressed via this forum or any other for that matter, without a thorough investigation of the situation directly from reliable and provable sources.

I, too, wish you well. 🙂

Nu
 
Originally posted by Klebsiella:

•••quote:••• Temple and Jeff are not doing as well as you suggest. ••••PS: I wasn't the one that suggested that Temple was or was not doing well, because I personally have not had any contact with Temple. It was Jefferson who showed me a copy of an article that appeared in The Philadelphia Inquirer, which just struck me as an odd gesture at the time.

That's all. Now may I be excused? 🙂
 
I know you're not lying NuMD, I hope you don't take it that way. By the way, our peds program is the program at St. Christopher's Hospital for Children, which is a nationally ranked program, and certainly not closing. Hahnemann used to have an independent peds program, which was merged into the St. Christopher's program when we took the hospital from Temple, who no longer has their own peds residency.

Personally, I don't think our IM program is that great, but it's not bad either, and I have spoken to certain IM residents who think that the new chair whom we recruited from Yale doesn't listen to resident concerns, and the didactics could be better, etc.. I don't think the program is so bad either, and this year 8 seniors are staying to do their IM categorical residency here, including some fairly strong students that I know. The truth, I suppose is somewhere in between what you are saying and what Klebsiella is saying. As for 10 IM interns leaving...I have never heard of anything of the sort happening. I would think that during my 3 months of doing IM here last fall, someone would have mentioned that at least once if it was the case. I think there's 43 categorical IM residents here/year, and I can't imagine 10 would leave without anyone mentioning it. I know in 1999 around 10 IM residents left, along with many surgical residents, but since then I haven't heard of that happening.

:wink:
 
If a program does close down, is the original program obliged to find spots for the residents it left hanging? If they are, I don't see any reason why these people should be leaving.
 
Yes, they are obliged, and think about it...if the core internal medicine program of a med school is closing down, it's because the entire med school is closing down (you can't have one without the other)...and, as I've said for YEARS...there is absolutely no chance of that.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Klebsiella:
•The amount of misinformation on this forum is mind boggling. The lack of knowledge is bewildering. Medical students in US universities are NEVER EVER left out in the cold. The allopathic system has a pact in place that provides alternate locations of study should one university close down. Basically what would happen is students in a closed university are divied out for matriculation in allopathic programs that remain. In fact, this has happened before, and the students were simply placed at neighboring medical schools. So 'it would seem' that these students would have been assigned alternate medical schools to complete their training. This is a healthy policy that keeps the brotherhood of medical schools strong, and the medical training system during a particularly unfavorable financial climate viable.•••••Perhaps saying the medical students would be left out in the cold is a little strong. Certainly MCP-Hahnemann's financial state is currently as good or better than most medical schools and I would not have a problem attending that school. But I don't trust any mysterious pact between medical schools to find me a space somewhere else if my school closed down.

Ask anyone that went through the chaos when Oral Roberts closed down in 1989. Although every student was finally found a place, many had to repeat a year of medical school. The students were not assigned new schools, they had to find schools that would take them. Even in the fall of 1998, with the near-closure of MCP-Hahnemann (the fourth largest medical school in the country) there was no plan in place to reaccomodate the 900+ medical students at that school.

It is not misinformation. The school was saved almost at the last minute when Tenet stepped in and Drexel agreed to take over operations. I can't imagine that Penn, Temple, and Jefferson were ready to absorb 900 new students overnight.
 
I was in direct contact (email & phone) with the guy at AAMC who was in charge of medical school accredidation during the Allegheny period, and he told me personally that there was a plan in place...that the students would be absorbed in schools throughout the country, presumably with some sensitivity to the geographic origin of the students, however, they would have had to start the year over again, in most cases.

The part about the last-minute saving of the school by Drexel is accurate, however.
 
Originally posted by mcphuguy:

•••quote:••• I know you're not lying NuMD, I hope you don't take it that way. By the way, our peds program is the program at St. Christopher's Hospital for Children, which is a nationally ranked program, and certainly not closing. ••••I didn't consider that anyone would take what I said as "lying". No offense taken, rest easy. I merely was stating what certain PDs had shared with me. As for St. Christopher's: that wasn't what was stated to me by the Peds person I spoke with at that hospital. I stand corrected then.

It never was my intention of adding to what is fast becoming a ruckus on this thread. [Now I see why I took this privately elsewhere before this post was created. My instincts were correct.] My sole purpose in answering what I heard from the "higher-ups" was to let anyone considering these places to thoroughly investigate them, and talk to folks directly from the source . "Caveat emptor." Nothing more, nothing less.

Many in the SDN community are well-meaning, without a doubt, but at the end of the day it is always best to take what is said with a hefty grain of salt and do the legwork oneself on any issue that might affect one's future.

Again, mcphuguy, I appreciate your input. 🙂

Nu
 
Numd,

The reason for my rather stern rebuke was because you were dispensing misinformation in a rather cavalier style. I have never been one to embrace horror and dismay. We have plenty of people like that in my class. I am especially sensitive when people rather loosely cast factually incorrect information about entire university systems. For now, I will let MCP guy respond, since he is in the know. I will certainly add information that my sources in this program provide me. This same kind of nonsense has happened in my school as well, and I hate when others contribute to the scare stories, especially when contributing entirely false information.
 
Klebbie:

I am not getting into a war with you. Period. I'm relating not rumor nor innuendo when it's been my personal experience talking to folks who were in the program and left.

I do have to add that I resent your implication of the veracity of my even having had these conversations with the individuals I mentioned. That, of course, is your right. Obviously you believe I have some "unspoken agenda" to malign the school. It never was my intention, but I'm not going to be put into a position that I need to defend what I said.

And that's all I'm going to say on this matter. It's gone on far long enough from my vantage point. Let the folks decide what they shall after they carefully investigate the situation as they advance their own careers. End of story.

I'll leave it to mcphuguy as well to add his comments and his unique perspective, since his information is obviously the most current, being the "man on the scene."

Have a pleasant evening.

Nu
 
Right now...the most current & up to date info at MCP Hahnemann is that I can report is...my son went to sleep at 9:30 PM, and my wife and I are about to do the same.... <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
 
Numd,

My arguments aren't directed at your person, or your 'opinion'. They are against some of the factually incorrect comments you have made in this thread. Certainly members should research for themselves, but to allude that the financial sitaution of various philadelphia university systems is a matter of opinion is outrageous.

Even without being a member of that system, I am capable of knowing that MCP is in the best financial situation currently of the big four. While I appreciate MCP Guy's intiminate knowledge and input, this isn't something I need to learn from him.

One should be very careful when sharing fireside chat stories about institutions as if they are fact, especially on this forum. It often hurts more than it helps, because the information is almost always wrong. Especially when it comes from a PD in a competing institution. Again, I don't take issue with you, as you are most definitely an upstanding kind hearted person. It is what you have shared with the community that irks me, although you certainly had the most pristine intentions.

Best wishes.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by NuMD97:
•Klebbie:

I am not getting into a war with you. Period. I'm relating not rumor nor innuendo when it's been my personal experience talking to folks who were in the program and left.

I do have to add that I resent your implication of the veracity of my even having had these conversations with the individuals I mentioned. That, of course, is your right. Obviously you believe I have some "unspoken agenda" to malign the school. It never was my intention, but I'm not going to be put into a position that I need to defend what I said.

And that's all I'm going to say on this matter. It's gone on far long enough from my vantage point. Let the folks decide what they shall after they carefully investigate the situation as they advance their own careers. End of story.

I'll leave it to mcphuguy as well to add his comments and his unique perspective, since his information is obviously the most current, being the "man on the scene."

Have a pleasant evening.

Nu•••••Numd,

One small addendum. I never implied you didn't have these conversations. I am simply debating the veracity of obviously false information you have stated as fact. I can tell you that every medicine program has it's share of attrition. It also seems the rate isn't as high as you state, judging by MCP guy's comments. My sources, who are still IN the system now, tell me all of the transfers were fmg candidates who weren't necessarily doing very well in the program. There is more to it, but I'd rather not publicize this kind of information on the board.

It might very well be that this program is not for FMG's although from what I'm told they do very well with rich fellowship opportunities. I can tell you that the AMG's in the program are largely very happy and prospering quite well. And that none of the transfers you speak of were AMG's.

I don't believe you have an agenda at all. I do however think you should exercise a bit more judgement when you publically malign, even unintenionally, based on incorrect information provided to you by a disgruntled employee. As you know, they aren't always the best source of information about the program.

If indeed you are interested in this program, you should know of several key changes that are occuring RIGHT now, at least according to my source in the program.

1. There will not be any overnight call at all this coming year (except in the units).

2. Parking will be entirely free, an issue some are still skeptical about, as this was promised last year too, but residents are once again being told this.

3. The biggest percent increase in HU students staying in recent years has just occured. Perhaps this barometer reflects the systems rather dramatic emergence from a bitter bankruptcy. This might mean fewer FMG slots in the coming years though.

****Obviously MCPGUY can correct any information I have mistated, but I am quoting a resident in the program as we speak.

Best of luck to all
 
Bump. I realize this thread is a couple of years old, but it seems relevant. Can anyone comment on the current situation with MCP Hospital and Drexel, i.e., does anyone know how this situation will affect the medical school? It appears that, according to the new proposal by Gov. Rendell and Sen. Arlen Specter, an independent doctors' group will run MCP, with Temple as the educational partner. This arrangement leaves Drexel out in the cold with regards to resident slots (and related funding), and speculation has it that the school will need to cut their intake of students and lay off some faculty, and may possibly move out of the Queen Lane campus. As a student starting at Drexel this fall, this all has me a bit concerned.

Relevant articles:

Philadelphia Inquirer

Philadelphia Business Journal
 
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