MD/DO degree?

[John DO]

I am a new student at KCOM (05). I recently heard from an MS2 that KCOM and some other DO schools are considering the institution of an MD/DO degree, much as many schools offer a DO/PhD degree. My understanding is that KCOM was originally granted a charter to confer the MD degree, but Dr. Still declined, instituting the DO degree. The addition of the MD/DO degree would increase competitiveness in today's health market. Any thoughts?

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[HomerJ]

Personally I think that the MD/DO degree would only add more confusion among the public about osteopathic medicine. Having a MD/DO will not make it any more competitive than DO. From my limited understanding, the best way for DOs to become competitive in the market place is to increase their numbers, which is currently taking place.

Also, with our shortage of physicians we have a large population who's healthcare needs are not fully being met. To me, it seems that there are plenty of patients to go around. This country needs physicians, DO or MD, it doesn't matter.

Homer J

 

[Florida_style]

Should we heighten awareness about the differences between the DO and the MD philosophies and practices? If so, we should eliminate the "MD" designation entirely, and replace it with an "M.D.A" designation.
Of course, the DO designation should be replaced with the designation "M.D.O"

This would force all participants in the health care system to at least question the difference.

john

 

[Florida_style]

Look with me!!

With the MDA and the MDO designations, what happens in the collective mind of the populace?

1. Both doctors are medical doctors!
2. One practices allopathic medicine, the other practices osteopathic medicine.

Similarities and differences are thrustimmediately into the public psyche.

john

 

[danH]

The MD profession is not going to change to MDA, be realistic. Those two initials are well established and are probably the most two respected (deserved or not) initals to put after your name. Besides, they have no reason to change it.
Instead of living in the shadow of the MD we have to establish ourselves as our own profession and market ourselves.
The AMA has a long (and sometimes illicit) history of marketing the MD profession with proven results. What the DO's need to do is learn from this and follow suit.
The AOA is funding an excellent marketing campaign and it is important for us to support it, even at the student level. From my experience working in corporate NYC I know that the PR company being used is top notch and they offer us tremendous potential. They virtually saved the dairy industry with the famous milk mustache ads.
If we support the AOA's campaign and have confidence when explaining what a DO is and back our claims up legitimatly we're nearly guaranteed to become as well known and established as our counterpart.
No one ever got respect from trying to be something they're not.

 

[turtleboard]

Originally posted by John DO:
•I am a new student at KCOM (05). I recently heard from an MS2 that KCOM and some other DO schools are considering the institution of an MD/DO degree, much as many schools offer a DO/PhD degree. My understanding is that KCOM was originally granted a charter to confer the MD degree, but Dr. Still declined, instituting the DO degree. The addition of the MD/DO degree would increase competitiveness in today's health market. Any thoughts? •

Where'd you get that information? I believe that Still started the American School of Osteopathy (KCOM's predecessor) to teach osteopathy and had a charter that granted only a diploma in osteopathy (which became D.O., Diplomate in Osteopathy).

 

[John DO]

you are correct that the ASO was established for the express purpose of teaching Osteopathy, but when Dr. Still approached the powers that be for a charter, the D.O. degree did not exist. Since he was a licensed M.D., his school was offered a charter to grant the M.D. degree under the authority of the Physicians and Surgeons Act in Missouri. Dr. Still declined, intent on establishing this new form of medicine. Most of this information is readily available on the AOA website at http://history.aoa-net.org . Supplemental info can be found at the Adair Public Library resources section.

 

[Hskermdic]

It is my understanding that KCOM has the ability to grant the MD degree if it so chose to do so. (I may be wrong, but that is the rumor I have heard) As for KCOM actually granding the MD/DO degree, don't hold your breath.

 

[dieselkid]

Hmmm. I think I would just change the acronym for such a merger of titles to:

1) DM read "Dumb"
2) MO read "Moooo"
3) OD read "Odd?"
4) OM read "Ohhhmmmmm"
5) DD read "D&D, Dungeons and Dragons"

I like D&D. Maybe we can be renamed as Clerics or Wizards! Go Frodo, Go!

-Dieselkid

 

[drchrislareau]

It appears that MD's will be separate from DO's for quite some time. Read about the recent decision of the United States Federation of State Medical Boards at http://www.dohealthnet.com/article1171.html.
Osteopathy Forever!

 

[Medic171]

How could you be an M.D. and a D.O. You practice one way or the other. You believe in MD philosophy or DO. I love osteopathic medicine, I will not need to pretend I am a MD. When I am done, I will be a DO and proud of it. If you do not like it, do not come to my practice If you prefer an MD, go see one; it will not hurt my feelings, I will have plenty of patients.

 

[Bigk9s]

Medic is right. We need to emphasize the differences of the DO philosophy, not minimize them by trying to be more like allopathy! DO's offer something extra....It will be one of my proudest days, when I have the D.O. designation behind my name.

 

[Bigk9s]

Medic is right. We need to emphasize the differences of the DO philosophy, not minimize them by trying to be more like allopathy! DO's offer something extra....It will be one of my proudest days, when I have the D.O. designation behind my name.

 

[together]

All hail group selection!

 

[doughboy]

Who cares about DO or MD right now....I just want to be a doctor. I've busted my butt this long and it doesn't matter what initials you put after my name. I still wonder at how you apply OMM while you're doing a hysterectomy. Does a different philosophy allow you to hold the knife differently...I don't think so. For those of us who want to go into medical subspecialities, I don't see any differences. Actions speak louder to me than words or thoughts. The osteopathic philosophy is great but if you can't really apply it "religiously" then what's the point. Its like keeping your vintage sports car in the garage and admiring it but never taking it out for a spin or using it for what it is...a mode of transportation. For those of you adamant about how great the osteopathic philosophy, more power to you, but if you don't go into a field where you can use it and show your patients the benefits of it then its just a wasted talent. I have a lot of MD friends that are great people and love their patients and you can't possible say they are at a disadvantage because they don't know OMM. Sorry if it sounds like I'm dissing on the field but until you encounter the frustrations of finding a DO residency that contains all of the advantages of a big university MD residency(for specialties) then you won't understand why. I'd gladly give up my OMM abilities to work at an institution that has cutting edge research, procedures, a vast number of patients with pathology, and countrywide reputation for producing well trained, experienced physicians who feel competent to treat anything that may arise in their field because they've seen everything more than once or twice.

 

[Ponderer]

i've read the article mentioned by Dr. Lareau, but what does it mean that osteopathic medicine is recognized by the Federation of State Medical Boards (FSMB) of the United States as of 4.19.2001?

i thought osteopathic medicine all along has been recognized by all state medical boards. Even if i were wrong and now that it has been declared and recognized by the FSMB, what kind of significance or impact will it bring on osteopathic medicine? i hope this means that both MD/DO residency programs should look at comlex as equally favorable as usmle. this can reduce students' hassles from taking both exams to demonstrate their competency in medicine. yep, and the federal government says so.

what do you guys think?

 

[Medic171]

I care doughboy. Do me a favor, and only apply allopathic because i care about osteopathic medicine.

 

[muonwhiz]

You are right, and it would certainly avaoid a lot of hassles about taking both tests to be sure you meet some state's quirky licensing requirements or so that residency directors can measure your testing competence better! I think that there is a provision in the AOA constitution or basic documents that prohibits osteopathic medical schools from granting any degree other than DO. Defiance could cause accreditation problems. Do these intitals mean Doctor of Osteopathy or Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine?

 

[doughboy]

Hey Medic171, that's great that you care and you're so enthusiastic and loyal. Wish I could say the same for me but I'm stuck in the osteopathic route and I'll make the best of it. I don't know how far you are in your osteopathic career/school but I hope you can open your eyes and take in an objective view of the entire medical world and your place in it. Sure, you can be a big fish in a little pond...but you know what, I don't settle for that crap. I've met too many "DO" hotshots who think they're so great and better than anyone else and you know what, most of them practice in a sub 200 bed hospital in rural america. When a difficult case comes through, they transfer them out. I've also met the DO "elitists" who preach about how different they are and how much better they are than MD's. Doesn't that make you want to puke or does that just boost your won ego. Doctors should be humble, objective, and compassionate. We get offended when MD's project their superiority over us but then we go and self proclaim our greatness to them. MD's prescribe a lot of drugs and DO's prescribe just as much. You're telling me you wouldn't prescribe an albuterol inhaler for an asthmatic? You think by having a holistic approach to your patient changes what plan you are going to take with him? I think a lot of people confuse holism with compassion. Being holistic doesn't necessarily make you compassionate. Be realistic. I have never said OMM was horrible or that it has no place in medicine. I'm just tired of the countless rants about stating its superiority. Why can't people just be humble.

 

[doughboy]

I guarantee you Medic171 that if you took a poll on how many people in your class applied to both MD and DO programs you'd find out that it'd be the majority. Because you know what, most of us just want to be a doctor whether MD or DO. Whoever denies that is just fooling themselves.

 

[bustinbooty]

Originally posted by Doughboy:
I still wonder at how you apply OMM while you're doing a hysterectomy. Does a different philosophy allow you to hold the knife differently...I don't think so. For those of us who want to go into medical subspecialities, I don't see any differences.

Doughboy:
I have to say first that surgical applications have been found for OMM, one of the most notable being the improved recovery time from conditions such as ilias. OMM does have applications everywhere, even subspecialties.

It is disheartening for me to know that there are people out there that are using Osteopathic medicine as a means to an end. I certainly believe you are not the only one out there who doesn't care...just wants to be a doctor. But an outspoken candor such as yours about the lack of true difference is only going to hurt our profession. By all means, become a doctor by whatever means it takes, that is your perrogative , but also respect those of us who believe in nurturing and practicing the philosophies of Osteopathic medicine.
And...while in school, and out, I would suggest keeping your anti-osteopathic views to yourself, as they won't help you make many friends.

Also written by Doughboy: I'm stuck in the osteopathic route and I'll make the best of it...

Kind of has an anti-osteopathic ring to it, doesn't it?

 

[doughboy]

You're so young in your career. I did have a lot of expectations and enthusiasm going into a DO school. But I soon found out that its not all its cracked up to be. Especially during my clinical rotations. Just wait until you rotate through some big name hospitals, you'll start to realize some things. There are just a lot more opportunities to see more pathology and critical patients and procedures that you just don't get at the smaller DO hospitals. Its just a fact. How many perinatal level III DO hospitals are there? Do DO hospitals have a Pediatrics ICU or a children's hospital? Yeah, its not fair to compare the two but when you're looking for a residency program that's not family medicine then the pickings are slim. Do you really believe that most DO's go into MD residencies only because there aren't enough DO residencies out there? I doubt it. You're going to go to the best residency you can get into.

 

[BooBooBear]

Originally posted by John DO:
•My understanding is that KCOM was originally granted a charter to confer the MD degree, but Dr. Still declined, instituting the DO degree•

I have had the pleasure of listening to several very well read D.O.s on the history of osteopathic medicine and done some reading myself. I have not heard the above thought before... in fact, it has always been said that Dr. Still never wanted his school to be an "MD" school because he really was disenchanted with the state of medicine at the time. As for KCOM instituting a MD/DO joint degree, it really wouldn't make much sense since there is so much overlap in what the two types of physicians are able to do. Just my two cents.

 

[bustinbooty]

Originally posted by Doughboy:
You're so young in your career. I did have a lot of expectations and enthusiasm going into a DO school. But I soon found out that its not all its cracked up to be.

And...Condescending, to boot! Why didn't you go the M.D. route?

 

[Popoy]

I've heard similar stories about what doughboy is going through and this is probably because of the expectations that one may have regarding going into the osteopathic profession....

You'd be amaze that I've heard similar stories with MD students because of expectations and empty promises....

Really it comes down to making the best of what situation you're in, no matter whether or not you're in the MD or DO route....

I have yet to start but I'm optimistic of what things may come.... what ever comes my way, hey, bring it on....

doughboy is just voicing his/her opinion regarding his/her experience and as students we have to make note of this because there shortcomings of our profession is out there.... Take it with a grain of salt and move on.... Do something about it if you can....

 

[Medic171]

bustinbooty said exactly how I feel. However, doughboy, I want to point out that here in Lansing there happens to be a level 1 trauma center, with peds, neonatal, ob/gyn, ect ect ect, and guess what they have? D.O. residents and students all through the hospital. I am sure you will be a great physician, but I hope that you will be a great osteopathic physician. Open your eyes a bit, you do not have to be embarassed to be a D.O.