MD match stats for DO

[MDpride]

Hii
I wish they didn't bundle up DO with FMG/IMG under independents on NRMP stats.
How far down ( on an avg) on the ROL does DO students go to get matched at ACGME program ?
going MD only. Lets say, 10 programs on ROL.

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[Buzz Me]

Why don't you ask your real question...what are the chances you'll match into an allopathic residency with 10 programs on your rank list?

 

[wannabeOBGYN]

Hii
I wish they didn't bundle up DO with FMG/IMG under independents on NRMP stats.
How far down ( on an avg) on the ROL does DO students go to get matched at ACGME program ?
going MD only. Lets say, 10 programs on ROL.

I agree, I think DOs, Canadian students, and then everyone else should be listed as individual groups. There's such a huge difference between IMGs/FMGs and DOs from what I've heard that it'd be nice to see the numbers.

 

[gutonc]

Hii
I wish they didn't bundle up DO with FMG/IMG under independents on NRMP stats.
How far down ( on an avg) on the ROL does DO students go to get matched at ACGME program ?
going MD only. Lets say, 10 programs on ROL.

Ummm...if the NRMP doesn't publish those stats, how exactly do you expect us to come up with the answer?

But just to give you a number, 4.6.

 

[umz]

You could do a poll & ask DOs where they matched. But it will vary wildly by specialty, I assume, so may be better on your specialty of interest's board.

 

[LoveSparkle]

This information is available online in the yearly released statistics, Google should help

 

[K31]

This information is available online in the yearly released statistics, Google should help

No, it's not--that was the point of the questions. The NRMP does break down percent matched by US MD, DO, US IMG, etc., and report how many of each type match to each specialty, but the more in-depth statistics reported by specialty in Charting Outcomes in the Match (percent matched and unmatched, average Step scores and number of ranks to match, etc.) are only reported individually for US MD, with all other applicants lumped together.

 

[LoveSparkle]

This is the document I was referring to - there are tables and graphs distinguishing Allopathic Seniors from other applicants. http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

 

[LoveSparkle]

No, it's not--that was the point of the questions. The NRMP does break down percent matched by US MD, DO, US IMG, etc., and report how many of each type match to each specialty, but the more in-depth statistics reported by specialty in Charting Outcomes in the Match (percent matched and unmatched, average Step scores and number of ranks to match, etc.) are only reported individually for US MD, with all other applicants lumped together.

You're totally right, its US Allopathic Seniors in one column, and everyone else in the Independent column.

 

[umz]

page 5

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2011.pdf

 

[scotchtapetest]

page 5

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2011.pdf

Did you even read the original question (i.e. post # 1)?

 

[umz]

Did you even read the original question (i.e. post # 1)?

Did you read all the rest of the posts? People were talking about data split between AMGs & others. Yes, the pdf I linked does not have # on ROL to match, but it does further break down non-AMGs matched in each specialty.

 

[cassrae]

Did you read all the rest of the posts? People were talking about data split between AMGs & others. Yes, the pdf I linked does not have # on ROL to match, but it does further break down non-AMGs matched in each specialty.

Yes, it has some data, but it only shows out of all the DO's who matched in an MD program, what percentage matched in each specialty. It has no data about what percentage of all the DO's that applied for each specialty actually matched into that specialty, which would be more helpful. But still there's nothing about # on ROL needed to match.

 

[umz]

I am fully aware of that. In fact, I mentioned part of what you said in my previous post. If it was such a burden on your life to click a link and look at a set of data that has potential to be of interest to you, then maybe you should stick to biting your nails and reading tea leaves until match day.

 

[K31]

It has no data about what percentage of all the DO's that applied for each specialty actually matched into that specialty, which would be more helpful.

Yeah, you'd think it wouldn't be that hard to pull out what percent of applicants matched into the specialty they ranked first, by applicant type. I doubt they will ever do the full analysis for everyone in Charting Outcomes in the Match--it already takes months to get it published for US MD with everyone else lumped together.

 

[idler12]

The NRMP data and reports website says that if you pay for the research then they can do custom reports. I wonder if that would work?

Bottom of Page: http://www.nrmp.org/data/index.html

 

[K31]

The NRMP data and reports website says that if you pay for the research then they can do custom reports. I wonder if that would work?

Good luck getting students to pony up the probably thousands of dollars that it would take to pay for it--blood from a stone comes to mind.

And from what I hear the AOA and the osteopathic schools aren't interested in even informing their students what they need to effectively apply to MD residencies, so good luck convincing them to pay for the data analysis.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Actually, I expect we'll start seeing some of this data in the future. The problem with analyzing anything now is that many DO/IMG's get spots outside of the match. Whether it's the most competitive, medium competitive, or least competitive of those that get spots outside the match is unclear. Hence, the data wouldn't really reflect what was really happening. With the all in match next year, these problems go away. Wouldn't surprise me if we started seeing the NRMP publish those data.

 

[jace's mom]

And from what I hear the AOA and the osteopathic schools aren't interested in even informing their students what they need to effectively apply to MD residencies, so good luck convincing them to pay for the data analysis.

This probably has a lot of truth in it, but I will say my dean went to a lot of trouble to help me interpret MD data and extrapolate what it would mean for me as a DO applying to an MD only specialty (pathology). She had great, concrete suggestions for the application process.

 

[AggieSean]

This probably has a lot of truth in it, but I will say my dean went to a lot of trouble to help me interpret MD data and extrapolate what it would mean for me as a DO applying to an MD only specialty (pathology). She had great, concrete suggestions for the application process.

Hey Jace's Mom! I remember you from back in the pre-allo days. Just wanted to say hi.

/hijack

 

[jace's mom]

Hey Jace's Mom! I remember you from back in the pre-allo days. Just wanted to say hi.

/hijack

Hi! I think of you whenever I see you on SDN. I'm glad you got into A&M, but I'm sorry not to have attended school together! Good luck in the match - general surgery, right?

 

[digitlnoize]

Actually, I expect we'll start seeing some of this data in the future. The problem with analyzing anything now is that many DO/IMG's get spots outside of the match. Whether it's the most competitive, medium competitive, or least competitive of those that get spots outside the match is unclear. Hence, the data wouldn't really reflect what was really happening. With the all in match next year, these problems go away. Wouldn't surprise me if we started seeing the NRMP publish those data.

I think it'd be an interesting mix. I was offered (and declined) 2 pre-match psych spots this year, and I'm a fairly average (by numbers at least) student, but they were at less competitive, "lower tier" programs in a less competitive specialty. I wasn't actively pursuing pre-matches though as we had our sights set on our hometown program. I have DO friends who've taken pre matches in every combination of Good/Bad/Average Student vs. Good/Bad/Average Program.

I got interview offers at all but 3 places I applied, and went on ~15 interviews, and ranked 13, so I think residencies like me, and I'm not so worried about matching that I'm willing to take a lower quality (but ok) program. I still ranked both of the places that pre-offered me.

The other issue is with how many DO's get osteopathic spots in the respective specialties, which we also don't get great data on, but do get some.

I would love to see this data too. Maybe we can get all the DO students who participate in the MD match to cough up $5-10 each and fund this report...

 

[John146]

Actually, I expect we'll start seeing some of this data in the future. The problem with analyzing anything now is that many DO/IMG's get spots outside of the match. Whether it's the most competitive, medium competitive, or least competitive of those that get spots outside the match is unclear. Hence, the data wouldn't really reflect what was really happening. With the all in match next year, these problems go away. Wouldn't surprise me if we started seeing the NRMP publish those data.

This may have been true in the past but not anymore. I don't know anyone at my osteopathic school that was offered an allopathic residency position outside of the match. Any other DO's applying this year that had a different experience?

 

[the alchemist]

This may have been true in the past but not anymore. I don't know anyone at my osteopathic school that was offered an allopathic residency position outside of the match. Any other DO's applying this year that had a different experience?

i interviewed for allo residency and most of them said they were trying not to prematch this year since the "all in" policy is supposed to go into effect this july (though i know 1 of them did prematch 1 person for one of their 8 spots and i think the person was an FMG b/c i met a friend of this person who was also FMG at another interview and he intimated as much) but this would probably be institution and maybe specialty specific. my friend's sister who is also FMG from india prematched in psych in nyc.

at my DO school, i know so far this year that at least 2 prematched allo peds (at an in-state program that tends to prematch at least 2 from my school each year recently).

 

[belle54321]

I am a US MD grads who applied for my second residency this year. I must say I had very little data to go on, as people in my situations are also lumped as "independent applicants." I guess we are a minority when compared to DOs and IMG/FMGs. If you read SDN, then I had no chance. But I am happy to say that I accepted an out-of-match PGY-2 position at a very good psych program. I also got 15 interviews-interesting most of the programs that extended interview invitations to me were top-tier programs.

 

[scotchtapetest]

This may have been true in the past but not anymore. I don't know anyone at my osteopathic school that was offered an allopathic residency position outside of the match. Any other DO's applying this year that had a different experience?

We had multiple people from my class getting pre-matches this year (obviously to allo programs, since you can't pre-match DO)....

 

[SAvoodoo]

This may have been true in the past but not anymore. I don't know anyone at my osteopathic school that was offered an allopathic residency position outside of the match. Any other DO's applying this year that had a different experience?

I can think of at least 4 that I know of. One peds, one psych and two IMs.

 

[the alchemist]

We had multiple people from my class getting pre-matches this year (obviously to allo programs, since you can't pre-match DO)....

actually i had a friend prematch DO (may have been on the DL, not sure, b/c we don't really have prematches like allo does for 4th yr DO/FMGs - tho did have an MD friend prematch to MGH a couple of years back but this friend was a 5th year and doing MPH year at that time and set up meetings w/ programs she wanted to prematch to go over her request to do so which i thought was gutsy - only 4th yr MD students can't prematch). 1 friend def prematched to DO radiology (4th year) a few years back

Also had 1 friend match to DO derm (actually i think its FM/derm and this person is an intern and reapplying b/c didn't match MD derm last year w/ great stats, etc so technically, this wouldn't count as a 4th year prematching) this year. Also had a different friend who finished a traditional rotating internship a couple of years back match early to DO FM/derm in Nov as well. But this person also wasn't a 4th year obviously.

All 3 DOs knew by Nov that they had matched and were not military.

 

[scotchtapetest]

actually i had a friend prematch DO (may have been on the DL, not sure, b/c we don't really have prematches like allo does for 4th yr DO/FMGs - tho did have an MD friend prematch to MGH a couple of years back but this friend was a 5th year and doing MPH year at that time and set up meetings w/ programs she wanted to prematch to go over her request to do so which i thought was gutsy - only 4th yr MD students can't prematch). 1 friend def prematched to DO radiology (4th year) a few years back

Also had 1 friend match to DO derm (actually i think its FM/derm and this person is an intern and reapplying b/c didn't match MD derm last year w/ great stats, etc so technically, this wouldn't count as a 4th year prematching) this year. Also had a different friend who finished a traditional rotating internship a couple of years back match early to DO FM/derm in Nov as well. But this person also wasn't a 4th year obviously.

All 3 DOs knew by Nov that they had matched and were not military.

The ones who pre-matched Derm. are legit/legal as Derm., Proctology and Preventive Medicine (whatever that is) are Option 3 residencies and don't participate in the AOA/NMS match... So, the only way, is to pre-match to them. However, you have to match to a RTI for OGME-1 training through the Match which sounds both individuals had accomplished and this is tightly regulated as you won't get AOA credit for your internship year otherwise.

The radiology one is not legal... When you say s/he "knew" that's different than pre-matching. When you pre-match there is technically supposed to be a binding contract signed by both parties whereby you are contractually obligated to attend the program and on the NRMP side, that must be reported to the NRMP and the pre-matched spot withdrawn from the match. Since AOA doesn't have pre-matches, it doesn't have that mechanism to begin with.
What you are describing (regarding the Radiology case) sounds more like a verbal agreement that I'll rank you high and you'll rank me high... However, neither party is obligated to do so... Come January your friend could've ranked another radiology programs first while the program could've ranked someone else higher.

This is from the NMS participation agreement:

"Not to make any formal arrangements or sign agreements or contracts with any participating institution prior to the release of the Match results. Any such agreements or contracts are non-binding and have no effect on the Match results."

 

[the alchemist]

The ones who pre-matched Derm. are legit/legal as Derm., Proctology and Preventive Medicine (whatever that is) are Option 3 residencies and don't participate in the AOA/NMS match... So, the only way, is to pre-match to them. However, you have to match to a RTI for OGME-1 training through the Match which sounds both individuals had accomplished and this is tightly regulated as you won't get AOA credit for your internship year otherwise.

The radiology one is not legal... When you say s/he "knew" that's different than pre-matching. When you pre-match there is technically supposed to be a binding contract signed by both parties whereby you are contractually obligated to attend the program and on the NRMP side, that must be reported to the NRMP and the pre-matched spot withdrawn from the match. Since AOA doesn't have pre-matches, it doesn't have that mechanism to begin with.
What you are describing (regarding the Radiology case) sounds more like a verbal agreement that I'll rank you high and you'll rank me high... However, neither party is obligated to do so... Come January your friend could've ranked another radiology programs first while the program could've ranked someone else higher.

This is from the NMS participation agreement:

"Not to make any formal arrangements or sign agreements or contracts with any participating institution prior to the release of the Match results. Any such agreements or contracts are non-binding and have no effect on the Match results."

as i said about my radiology friend, i dunno if it was on the DL but s/he def did have at least a verbal agreement that s/he would match there and has been at this AOA program since. it wasn't a "i'll rank u high, we'll rank u high" thing...but a more explicit, the 2 parties agreed on the specific that s/he would be matching there and s/he referred to it as "prematch" on his/her social networking (i remember b/c i asked how s/he knew when it wasn't feb yet back then). since it was a while back, i can't remember if s/he got it in writing or not though i could always ask out of curiosity now. but it really doesn't matter and i wouldn't want this person to get in trouble when they're almost done to have announced it back then if it was not legit and supposed to be on the DL. my impression was that it wasn't though.

prev med is actually a pretty cool specialty and u get an mph out of it (w/o paying for it and the time to do it and/or the field work practicum are built into ur residency). i have more than a few friends (MD and DO) in prev med residency. its great for those who want more of a health policy/epi/enviro health/etc background and to make some connections to help them in the future if they want certain types of leadership roles. most r doing either FM, IM, or peds + the mph training (though i also know an MD ortho who seems to have worked out w/ his/her program to cover the mph after starting residency and give 3-4 month blocks of time off here and there to do the mph part-time..though s/he obviously didn't match as prev med orig). one DO friend even prematched to a prev med program that has a top mph program and knew before the start of 4th yr where s/he would be going for prev med residency. still legal since nrmp "all in" hasn't started yet though unique in that s/he prematched during 3rd yr. but that's a VERY rare and special situation and this friend fostered and impressed the right connections (and deservedly so) at this program (during med school) to proceed this way and save on the application and interview expenses that the rest of us had to deal with.

 

[the alchemist]

for those wondering what preventive medicine is:
http://www.acpm.org/?page=MSS_webinars&hhSearchTerms=student

basically think of public health minded physicians =)