pnasty

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I decided last year that I was going to apply to an MD/MBA program, and so only applied to those schools with dual degree programs. I got into Tufts MD/MBA, but then also got into Northwestern's MD. Since Kellogg is one of the best schools in the country I decided to go to Northwestern (plus Tufts MBA isnt accredited!!!). I have had a part-time job all through college, did an internship in wealth management at Merrill Lynch, a consulting internship, and some other finance related things. I am also taking the GMAT in three weeks. I guess I am wondering how hard is it to get in? I know I must have more business experience than most people going to med school, but those who took a couple years off and are applying obviously have a large advantage. Anyone know if the experience I have would be enough? Is there anything I can do to further that experience at this point?
 

bluejay68

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pnasty said:
I decided last year that I was going to apply to an MD/MBA program, and so only applied to those schools with dual degree programs. I got into Tufts MD/MBA, but then also got into Northwestern's MD. Since Kellogg is one of the best schools in the country I decided to go to Northwestern (plus Tufts MBA isnt accredited!!!). I have had a part-time job all through college, did an internship in wealth management at Merrill Lynch, a consulting internship, and some other finance related things. I am also taking the GMAT in three weeks. I guess I am wondering how hard is it to get in? I know I must have more business experience than most people going to med school, but those who took a couple years off and are applying obviously have a large advantage. Anyone know if the experience I have would be enough? Is there anything I can do to further that experience at this point?
I can't specifically speak for Northwestern, but the way it worked at Penn was that being a current MD student at the time of application was a tremendous help to your application, but by no means made admission automatic. The key aspect of your application was to make a convincing argument for the need for the dual degree, and the more experiences you have to prove your interest, the better. The bar for "business experience" as an MBA applicant was lowered for MD applicants (average Wharton applicant had about 4 years of work under their belt; most MD applicants had gone straight from undergrad to med school). Sounds like you have been involved in some substantial business-related activities as an undergrad that will lend you some credibility and perspective that will be much appreciated by admissions. My advice would be to contact current Northwestern MD/MBA students who have recently successfully navigated the Kellogg admissions process in the past 1-2 years and get some very specific advice for you. I would recommend making the most of the summer between 1st and 2nd year of med school (i.e., don't just take vacation and don't do clinical research; look for another interesting business-related internship); you can also look into taking a Kellogg elective during your first or second year of med school (audit it if you are stressed about workload).

Good luck - sounds like you are on the right track...
 

cleansocks

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Since this post is somewhat anti-Tufts md/mba, and since many prospective md/mba's will come here for information, I'd like to clarify a few things:

1. Tufts creates its MBA program using accredited schools: brandeis, northeastern, and if you so choose, BU (electives at this point - may change). The program contains all the courses a normal MBA program does, and sometimes utilizes these business schools' "health tracks" to make the standard fare more medically relevant.

2. Accredation requires the GMAT: Tufts has felt this to be unnecessary considering the MCAT.

3. Any business school can attain accredation. Lots of online business schools are "accredited."

4. Tufts has the largest MD/MBA program (~15 student average + alumni: big networking advantage) which, along with another four-year program in Texas, was the FIRST MD/MBA program in the country. QI within the program is constant.

5. Due to the recent (unfortunate but predictable) uproar about accredation, Tufts is considering accrediting its program which requires little beyond mandating the GMAT be taken sometime before or during the medical program.

SO, I wish the OP the best of luck at Northwestern and getting into Kellogg, but everyone visiting the thread should realize that MBA accredation doesn't mean much (unlike medical accredation which obviously does)

and of course that the Tufts program is pretty awesome =)




To the OP: if you wanna get into the MBA program, considering doing business oriented stuff during your 1st couple summers instead of research or clinical.
 
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pnasty

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cleansocks said:
Since this post is somewhat anti-Tufts md/mba, and since many prospective md/mba's will come here for information, I'd like to clarify a few things:

1. Tufts creates its MBA program using accredited schools: brandeis, northeastern, and if you so choose, BU (electives at this point - may change). The program contains all the courses a normal MBA program does, and sometimes utilizes these business schools' "health tracks" to make the standard fare more medically relevant.

2. Accredation requires the GMAT: Tufts has felt this to be unnecessary considering the MCAT.

3. Any business school can attain accredation. Lots of online business schools are "accredited."

4. Tufts has the largest MD/MBA program (~15 student average + alumni: big networking advantage) which, along with another four-year program in Texas, was the FIRST MD/MBA program in the country. QI within the program is constant.

5. Due to the recent (unfortunate but predictable) uproar about accredation, Tufts is considering accrediting its program which requires little beyond mandating the GMAT be taken sometime before or during the medical program.

SO, I wish the OP the best of luck at Northwestern and getting into Kellogg, but everyone visiting the thread should realize that MBA accredation doesn't mean much (unlike medical accredation which obviously does)

and of course that the Tufts program is pretty awesome =)




To the OP: if you wanna get into the MBA program, considering doing business oriented stuff during your 1st couple summers instead of research or clinical.

sorry i didnt mean for it to sound like i was bashing tufts. thanks for clearing that up, it would have been nice if they explained it like that during interview day tho
 

luke77

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Just curious -- Do MD/MBA's typically complete a medicine residency as well, or do they jump to the workforce after their degrees are completed?
 

bluejay68

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luke77 said:
Just curious -- Do MD/MBA's typically complete a medicine residency as well, or do they jump to the workforce after their degrees are completed?
It depends on why they are getting the MBA; for the MD's who get their MBA at the same time as their MD (so we are not considering MD's who have trained/practiced and then go back for an MBA) either they 1) never wanted to practice clinical medicine so they go into a business job straight out of school 2) always knew they wanted to be a clinician so they forge ahead with residency or 3) are on the fence, make a lot of calls for advice, have a lot of sleepless nights and decide to try out one route or the other with an attempt to keep the other option open.

I have not seen any aggregated data on this, but my (limited) experience is that most (~2/3) go on to residency. This proportion appears to change somewhat depending on the prevaling business environment/opportunities (i.e., the split was probably 1:1, or even in favor of business during boom years like 1999/2000).
 

Law2Doc

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bluejay68 said:
It depends on why they are getting the MBA; for the MD's who get their MBA at the same time as their MD (so we are not considering MD's who have trained/practiced and then go back for an MBA) either they 1) never wanted to practice clinical medicine so they go into a business job straight out of school 2) always knew they wanted to be a clinician so they forge ahead with residency or 3) are on the fence, make a lot of calls for advice, have a lot of sleepless nights and decide to try out one route or the other with an attempt to keep the other option open.

I have not seen any aggregated data on this, but my (limited) experience is that most (~2/3) go on to residency. This proportion appears to change somewhat depending on the prevaling business environment/opportunities (i.e., the split was probably 1:1, or even in favor of business during boom years like 1999/2000).
I think the big thing is that it is near impossible to get back into medicine if you didn't do at least some residency right after school. Most people will want to do whatever minimum is advisable just to keep that option open. I know physicians who routinely counsel med school grads thinking of non-clinician paths to do the residency first, and only then go do what they want, so medicine will still be there as a fallback.
 

ChillDoc2010

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Yeah definitely good to get licensed first
 

confusedSE

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Hi guys ..

I am considering getting an MD/MBA or just an MD, and working in consulting for a few years to see if I like healthcare business, and to pay off some loans. How hard is it to go into residency after you've taken a break after getting your MD? Or is it better to do your intern year first, and then come back later?

thanks-
 

bluejay68

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confusedSE said:
Hi guys ..

I am considering getting an MD/MBA or just an MD, and working in consulting for a few years to see if I like healthcare business, and to pay off some loans. How hard is it to go into residency after you've taken a break after getting your MD? Or is it better to do your intern year first, and then come back later?

thanks-
Taking time off between med school and residency can create some challenges for you; of course many variables are at play:

1. the length of time off (one year may have very little impact, 5 years would be nearly impossible to overcome)

2. the specialty to which you apply (you would likely still have opportunities in less popular specialties and more competitive ones like Derm and Ortho would be very challenging to get into)

3. how open you are to matching ANYWHERE versus some very specific programs (i.e., if you have a short list of 3-5 programs in a given specialty or have a specific city/region that you MUST match in, taking significant time off may be a real issue since you would probably have to apply to a wider variety of programs)

4. what exactly you are doing with that time after med school. Doing business work is likely to be looked upon much less favorably than other acitivies (things that come to mind that would potentially even make your application stonger would perhaps be Peace Corps, a highly-regarded clinically relevant research project, etc; you would just have to do a lot of explaining on the timing).

5. how willing are you to re-take your USMLE Step 1 and 2 exams? I don't know the exact timeframes off the top of my mind, but I think your scores are valid for some time period and then you will likely have to take them over again if you take too much time off. Plus, how comfortable would you really be working in an ICU in your first month of internship if you were several years removed from weeing patients? I know some MD/PhD's go away to the lab and then come back, but that's got to be hard.


As you can see, there are many issues with delaying training after med school. My advice to you would be to either do the business work before med school or train after med school and then take time for business work. It's generally much easier to transition from clinical medicine to business, while the transition the other way can be very challenging depending on where you are in your career. You are pariticularly vulnerable after med school without any clinical training; if you blow your chance to do a residency, the MD degree will be little more than objective proof that you are intelligent and hard working; great for opening doors, but it won't pay the bills like being a board-certified attending.
 

confusedSE

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bluejay68 said:
Taking time off between med school and residency can create some challenges for you; of course many variables are at play:

1. the length of time off (one year may have very little impact, 5 years would be nearly impossible to overcome)

2. the specialty to which you apply (you would likely still have opportunities in less popular specialties and more competitive ones like Derm and Ortho would be very challenging to get into)

3. how open you are to matching ANYWHERE versus some very specific programs (i.e., if you have a short list of 3-5 programs in a given specialty or have a specific city/region that you MUST match in, taking significant time off may be a real issue since you would probably have to apply to a wider variety of programs)

4. what exactly you are doing with that time after med school. Doing business work is likely to be looked upon much less favorably than other acitivies (things that come to mind that would potentially even make your application stonger would perhaps be Peace Corps, a highly-regarded clinically relevant research project, etc; you would just have to do a lot of explaining on the timing).

5. how willing are you to re-take your USMLE Step 1 and 2 exams? I don't know the exact timeframes off the top of my mind, but I think your scores are valid for some time period and then you will likely have to take them over again if you take too much time off. Plus, how comfortable would you really be working in an ICU in your first month of internship if you were several years removed from weeing patients? I know some MD/PhD's go away to the lab and then come back, but that's got to be hard.


As you can see, there are many issues with delaying training after med school. My advice to you would be to either do the business work before med school or train after med school and then take time for business work. It's generally much easier to transition from clinical medicine to business, while the transition the other way can be very challenging depending on where you are in your career. You are pariticularly vulnerable after med school without any clinical training; if you blow your chance to do a residency, the MD degree will be little more than objective proof that you are intelligent and hard working; great for opening doors, but it won't pay the bills like being a board-certified attending.


The problem is I am already in my second year of med school, and I am debating whether doing a residency or not..i guess i am very impatient. I also have the issue of an MBA or not...it's just that the prospect of a 4-5 year residency is very gloomy to me, especially when consulting firms offer packages upwards of 170k right after i get my MD without residency.
 

confusedSE

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confusedSE said:
The problem is I am already in my second year of med school, and I am debating whether doing a residency or not..i guess i am very impatient. I also have the issue of an MBA or not...it's just that the prospect of a 4-5 year residency is very gloomy to me, especially when consulting firms offer packages upwards of 170k right after i get my MD without residency.
And also the fact that the school that i go to, I don't want to get my MBA there- I have the notion that if i get my MBA, I want to get it from a top tier school.

I think at the bottom of it is that even after just 1 year- I'm discouraged by the length of time of the MD track- and making some money and getting some real world business experience seems to be pulling at me. Ideally, I'd like to combine my business and healthcare interests, but it seems that now that I'm in medical school - I don't have many options. Is there a way to explore my business interests, get experience, or go to MBA school before I start my residency?

If taking a year off to work and another 2 to get my MBA between 3rd and 4th years is looked down upon by residency programs, and if after getting my MD and going into business, and then trying to get back into residency is looked down upon- I guess I'm out of options?
 

ChillDoc2010

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confusedSE said:
And also the fact that the school that i go to, I don't want to get my MBA there- I have the notion that if i get my MBA, I want to get it from a top tier school.

I think at the bottom of it is that even after just 1 year- I'm discouraged by the length of time of the MD track- and making some money and getting some real world business experience seems to be pulling at me. Ideally, I'd like to combine my business and healthcare interests, but it seems that now that I'm in medical school - I don't have many options. Is there a way to explore my business interests, get experience, or go to MBA school before I start my residency?

If taking a year off to work and another 2 to get my MBA between 3rd and 4th years is looked down upon by residency programs, and if after getting my MD and going into business, and then trying to get back into residency is looked down upon- I guess I'm out of options?



What about doing a one-year MBA program between 3rd and 4th years? You could get the MBA done, use a couple 4th year elective blocks to explore your business interests (internship in business, healthcare management elective- most schools are quite flexible about 4th year electives as long as they go toward your academic goals).

I would say that getting real-world business experience would have to wait until later in your career if you want to finish your residency, since it's hard to get back into clinical medicine if you go work somewhere after 4th year. Or, you could at least finish your 1st residency year, get licensed, and then go work, because then at least you're a licensed physician and not just an MD degree holder, which might make it easier to return to the profession.
 

bluejay68

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ChillDoc2010 said:
What about doing a one-year MBA program between 3rd and 4th years?
He doesn't want to do the MBA at the school he attends, and he wants one from a top program. Not going to happen in 1 year.
 

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bluejay68 said:
He doesn't want to do the MBA at the school he attends, and he wants one from a top program. Not going to happen in 1 year.
Why not simply take time off during medical school? Work for a year or two and then come back and finish medical school and decide whether or not to pursue a residency or work at that time armed with more information (that's the inherent value of an option). I would think a break between your second and third year will have less of an impact than one after medical school but i could be wrong. Ideally if you were going to break up medical school you would do it between 1st and 2nd year but i guess you're passed that point.