MD/PhD Admissions Process

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zinjanthropus

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Hello Everyone-
I am a current PhD student in human biology and I have decided to go MD-PhD one way or the other. My university (UMich) has been fairly receptive to the idea thus far and encouraged me to apply to their MSTP program. However, I wanted to wait and see my MCAT scores before following through. I received my MCAT score yesterday and feel that it is competitive. I have now applied to UMich and I am considering applying to other schools to potentially open up some more options. Although there are two problems with this

1. My research is based at this university and I am not sure if I am comfortable doing my dissertation somewhere else or if it will be possible to do the dissertation somewhere else

2. I am unclear as to how late in the application cycle this is for MSTP programs. My understanding is that many of the MSTP programs do not follow rolling admissions (e.g. Harvard) and instead have set interview dates with a set decision period.

While the first problem is basically mine to sort out and, potentially much more complicated, I was wondering if anyone could offer any advice or thoughts on this predicament or on the logistics of problem 2.

Thanks for any help.

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Originally posted by zinjanthropus
Hello Everyone-
I am a current PhD student in human biology and I have decided to go MD-PhD one way or the other. My university (UMich) has been fairly receptive to the idea thus far and encouraged me to apply to their MSTP program.

I am thrilled to see someone doing this year what I plan to do next year:clap: :clap:


To address your first question, you should also look into the possibility of doing your PhD at one school and your MD at another school. While EXTREMELY rare it would certainily be an answer to this delimma. From what I know of the few people I know/know of that had done this, schools are usually pretty anxious to "claim" that they have another MD/PhD student in their midst.

As to the second question, I know that Penn doesn't look too fondly at students from "outside" PhD programs applying MD/PhD there, at least that's what the director told me. This is probably true for many "top" schools but I know that in the past GWU, has been receptive to this idea. Good Luck!
 
i think this fairly rare. while students will sometimes follow their mentors to a new school in the middle of the PhD- i have not heard of many PhD getting into MD/PhD programs and even fewer, actually never heard of a PhD at one school and MD at another. of course, except for those who get a PhD and then pay for an MD at a different school- but i do not think this is what you are talking about. anyway....

admission cycles are variable so apply early and often. as the other post stated, you may want to include non-MSTP programs as they may be more likely to entertain this.

Good luck-
 
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I am in the same situation. The schools I contacted suggested that they are not set up to take in a current PhD student from another institution, but that once you were finished with the PhD and matriculated med school, you could participate in their research rounds, etc. and potentially do work as a post-doc part time. This is what I am aiming for if I go to an outside MD program.

Just my 0.02-:)
 
Originally posted by pbp4
actually never heard of a PhD at one school and MD at another.
You're absolutely right, this is rare, but I very close friend of mine is finishing up medical school at one school and did her PhD at another school (She did MS1, MS2, then PhD, now she's back to medical school. I should mention that she already had a Master's degree from the school that granted her the PhD which meant after her second year of medical school, she only had to do a dissertation).
There's also the possibility of taking a leave of absence after you complete the 2nd year of medical school to get a PhD. I don't know of many schools that would frown on that since people take leaves of absence all the time (although for shorter time usually 1 year).
 
i guess the real issue becomes funding and time- you are completely correct- almost no school would mind if you went off and did your PhD and came back but would they fund you. on the other hand, would the grad school give you any credit for your med school time. in other words, would you be doing an MD AND a PhD- in which case this may take a long while. at my school MD/PhDs double dip- the med school gives us some credit for research so we do not need to do a fourth year and the grad school gives credit for MD courses so this limits the coursework for the PhD. it sounds like your friend sort of did the same thing with the masters. without the double dip it would take us 5-7 years for the PhD and 4 for the MD.

something to think about... if you do not have funding to do the PhD (both MD and PhD bucks)- it would be a bad idea to do it. i personally think you would be better off doing a post-doc after your MD. this way, you can apply for one of the many programs NIH has for clinicians to get into research. often the PhD will disqualify you from such programs. In addition, there is nothing magical about a PhD- if you have significant research experience you will be fine with the MD. anyway, that is off topic but....

one more thing- why does it seem so many PhDs want to get an MD?

-p
 
Originally posted by pbp4
one more thing- why does it seem so many PhDs want to get an MD?
Great question, two words, CLINICAL EXPERIENCE!! In my case I've wanted to be an MD (since 1971) long before I ever thoguht about doing a PhD. While studying for my Master's in the late 90's, I worked in the lab of the Assist. Director of Chapel Hill's MD/PhD program and through her support and encourgement along with meeting MD/PhD students in the program decided that this was the program for me. Finally, the OP is pursuing Human Biology and I'm pursuing Pathology. The transition to medicine seems obvious to me.
Originally posted by pbp4
almost no school would mind if you went off and did your PhD and came back but would they fund you. on the other hand, would the grad school give you any credit for your med school time.
It depends.Next semester, I'll take courses with medical student and should I matriculate at this medical school into the MD/PhD program, my courses will count toward both the MD and PhD. If I'm nort accepted to this medical school, it means I'll have a very good chance getting an "A" in Pathology at the school I do attend.
Originally posted by pbp4
in other words, would you be doing an MD AND a PhD- in which case this may take a long while.
As I said before, some things are not about time. I also don't worry that I may have to take out loans to pay for medical school. You do what you have to do, is what I always say. In the case of my friend that 's doing the MD at one school and the PhD at another, you're right it has taken a long time, 10 years to be exact. But now that she's finishing up, she's already been offered a position in the pharmaceutical industry paying 250K with NO residency. I'm sure if you asked her about the time in the program 5 years ago she would had complained about how long it's taking. But 250K( she has 5 first author pubs, and a gazillion with her name on it) makes the 10 years seem worth in her case;)
 
hay path dr 2 b,

if you wanted to be a MD since 1971, how come you are just applying to medical school in 2004?

Also, how do you get a PhD in pathology? Do path programs accept PhDs for basic course study, written exams, oral exams, thesis right out of undergrad, like say a biochem or physics department does? What courses are required?

Thanks
 
Originally posted by pathstudent
hay path dr 2 b,if you wanted to be a MD since 1971, how come you are just applying to medical school in 2004?
Lets' just say that I've had a very long and sometimes difficult road to getting to the place I am today. Pm me for details
Originally posted by pathstudent
Also, how do you get a PhD in pathology? Do path programs accept PhDs for basic course study, written exams, oral exams, thesis right out of undergrad, like say a biochem or physics department does? Thanks
Yes, you can be admitted directly from undergrad but I can't imagine doing that and almost all of the students in my class have Master's degree's. A few of them thought about going the MD route but decided on the PhD ( If I had to choose between the two, I would choose the MD).In the PhD program you have cumes, orals , ect just like any other PhD program. As a matter of fact given the closeness to medicine,I'm still suprised at the low number of MD/PhD students that become pathologist that don't do PhD's in path.
However, let me tell you that this program is much harder than I EVER thought it would be. While I'm enjoying it immensly (I understand very well my daughter's recent bout with asthma on a molecular level) I find myself having to study more than I did when I was a chemistry graduate student. I also enjoy attending clinical conferences with pathologist and other MD's and PhD's.
Originally posted by pathstudent
What courses are required?
Geenral courses: Molecular Biology, Biochemistry, Immunology, Cell Biology.
Patholgoy Courses: General Pathology, Pathology of Organ Systems( MD course), Cellular Pathology, and Pathologic Basis of Cancer.
I may have to come back and ammend this list.
 
Yep, sounds like grad school.

Such experience should make acceptance to medical school a lock, and if your research is with a well known faculty, I bet you can go whereever you want.

They should let you go to residency right after the first two years of medical school. People will say that you need the clinical experience, but really you don't. You don't need to palpate boobs and do H and Ps to know how to make the diagnosis of DCIS.

Nor do the handful of gyne exams you do as a third year help you understand how to do cytology. But I guess it helps to know a little bit about what goes on in the cilinics.

Also, who knows, maybe you will want to bag pathology and be a pediatrician or a surgeon after you see what they are all about.
 
Originally posted by pathstudent
Such experience should make acceptance to medical school a lock, and if your research is with a well known faculty, I bet you can go whereever you want.
I sure hope so!
Originally posted by pathstudent
They should let you go to residency right after the first two years of medical school. People will say that you need the clinical experience, but really you don't. You don't need to palpate boobs and do H and Ps to know how to make the diagnosis of DCIS.
I agree with this too!:clap: :clap:. Because of the graduate training, I'm starting to become aware of the different "perspective" I have in viewing difficult cases in clinical patholgy conferences versus the straight MD's.
Also, one of the schools on my list to apply to next year has a "track" for students that want to become pathologists. I don't know the details but I'd love to avoid an Ob rotation at all costs!
Originally posted by pathstudent
Also, who knows, maybe you will want to bag pathology and be a pediatrician or a surgeon after you see what they are all about.
I can assure you that I won't change my mind from pathology. First, it's a very family freindly choice and i have a family already. Second, it's a perfect complement for a person interested in cancer research because I get to use my background in protein biochemistry. Third, there's nothing else I'd rather do after having shadowed over the years almost every other speciality from general surgery to neonatology. Most improtanly, I just love pathology!!!:clap: :clap:
 
this talk may catch up with you- you might fall in love with OB and not be able to see yourself doing anything else... thats what happened to me with path.......
 
Originally posted by pbp4
this talk may catch up with you- you might fall in love with OB and not be able to see yourself doing anything else... thats what happened to me with path.......

Okay, I hear this all the time except from the path residents and pathologist I work with. Not to brag, but I have this natural thing for pathology. But trust me, IF I did change my mind it certainly wouldn't be to OB. I have 2 cousins that are OB's and shadowing them showed me that OB was NOT for me. Besides the hours required for training and practice are not conducive to having the quality of family life I'm looking for.

What I'm trying hard to figure out is why there aren't more people interested in pathology, especially women MD/PhD's:confused:
 
Dear pathdr2b,
Could you tell me a little bit what kind of things you do as a molecular pathologist? It sounds very interesting; however, I shadowed a pathologist last year but all he did (or all he let me see) was cutting and staining breast and endometrium. Can you go into a sub-field after your training, such as neuropathology or gastropath?
 
zinjanthropus, I am curious, what did you get on the MCAT?
 
Originally posted by jeniffer lopez
Could you tell me a little bit what kind of things you do as a molecular pathologist? It sounds very interesting;
No problem, but I first need to tell you that I'm in training to become a molecular pathologist. In simple terms, molecular path is just applying what I'll call recombinant DNA techniques (genomics) and protein biochemistry (proteomics) to answer questions important in pathology. For example, I'm currently working on a project using a mitochondrial enzyme for both immunohistochemistry and SDS/PAGE/Western Blotting. Without going into too many details, the hope is to elucidate and validate a biomarker that can be used to distinguish a benign tumor from a malignant one. On the genetic side of things, PCR will be done to determine if there is LOH or loss of heterozygosity at a particular locus for this mitochondrial enzyme in normal, benign, and malignant tissue. This way we hope to present a complete picture of what's happening on a molecular level by looking at genetics and the products of genes, ie proteins.
Originally posted by jeniffer lopez
Can you go into a sub-field after your training, such as neuropathology or gastropath?
Absolutely especially if your goal is research.
 
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