MD PHD and cardiology

[TheBoondocks]

Hi, I'm an undergrad and will be applying for MDPHD/MSTP. I am highly interested in cardiolgy. I'm aware of the research that must be done to make one competitive. However, I'm inquiring if an MDPHD gives one a significant advantage when it comes to residency and fellowship placement due to the built in research. I plan on getting my phD in some kind of molecular biology area regarding the heart. I'm not doing for just for fellowship placement, I'm just curious if the MD PHD will give one a significant boost. I noticed most cardiologists are MD's and not MD PHD's. I'm especially interested in EP.

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[P Diddy]

Hi, I'm an undergrad and will be applying for MDPHD/MSTP. I am highly interested in cardiolgy. I'm aware of the research that must be done to make one competitive. However, I'm inquiring if an MDPHD gives one a significant advantage when it comes to residency and fellowship placement due to the built in research. I plan on getting my phD in some kind of molecular biology area regarding the heart. I'm not doing for just for fellowship placement, I'm just curious if the MD PHD will give one a significant boost. I noticed most cardiologists are MD's and not MD PHD's. I'm especially interested in EP.

Completing an MD/PhD will give you a significant boost over non PhD applicants for the reasons you mentioned in your post. Most Cardiologists (and non Cardiologists) are MDs because there are many more MDs than MD/PhDs graduating from medical school.

Academic centers in particular are accruing more MdPhDs on their faculty. At my residency program the MdPhDs matched very well in the last 3 years, going to MGH, Stanford, Cornell and Duke for Cardiology. The plain MDs matched well also in Cardiology at MGH, Duke, Stanford, USC, UW, Hopkins, BU and Cleveland Clinic.

p diddy

 

[tibor75]

It'll give you a boost no question. But if that's the only reason you are doing it, it's a waste of time. 2 years to get a PhD degree just to boost your credentials? Not even close to being worth it. You won't be happy.

But if you love research and plan on being a clinical/basic investigator at the faculty level, do it.

 

[mytirf]

It'll give you a boost no question. But if that's the only reason you are doing it, it's a waste of time. 2 years to get a PhD degree just to boost your credentials? Not even close to being worth it. You won't be happy.

But if you love research and plan on being a clinical/basic investigator at the faculty level, do it.

2 years??? I'm not sure that many MD/PhD programs have the PhD completed in just 2 years. Generally it is longer, unless that you have done significant undergraduate research and completed all of the course work during medical school. Even then, I would think 3 years would be a minimum to do clean, independent research. Nevertheless, I would still say that only do the PhD it you eventually want research as part of your career someday. I generally think it is very shortsighted to pursue the PhD just to give a boost to your application. That time could be better spent doing a clinical research project or additional rotations. Please don't do the PhD just to be different.

 

[whatsdown]

absolutely correct. Doing a PhD to get ahead is the wrong way to do it. If this is your path, it is only worth it if you seriously plan on an academic appointment in the future...and thats hard to know now. Take into account 4 years for a PhD = 4 years lost wages of a cardiologist ($1,000,000). Take into account that you publish your papers, then there is med school, residency and fellowship...that could be 5-6 years since your last publication, which does not help that much getting grants (typically last 5 years is what counts). So, if you want to do research, and you are competitive now for a good program, consider going, and finishing a PhD during fellowship (get paid $50,000 instead of $20,000 / year) as well, plus you can get a direct faculty appointment as many people I know have. You will definitely need to go back to the lab before getting a faculty position by doing a PhD first, which adds at least 2 years total to your training. I did a PhD first and I figuring this all now...it was fun, but there are a lot of things to consider more than if you match to what you want.

 

[whatsdown]

Also - a lot of basic scientists do not see an MD/PhD (if you are in one of these programs), as equal to a MD + PhD primarily because some of these PhD programs are 3 years (typical PhD = 5 years), and some can be on the 2.5 year side..which is a master's in some places. These people decide on funding / grants. Use your years wisely.

 

[TheBoondocks]

thanks for the replies. I'll seriously reconsider applying MD PHD. I'm pretty set on cardiology. However, now that I see there are other options for the pHD, it seems to make more sense to get the phD during fellowship.

 

[pillu]

Slightly different question than that of the OP - I am a PGY2 applying for Cardiology this year. If I dont end up matching this year (which seems likely, going by the 0 invites I have thus far), I am thinking about a PhD for 2 or 3 years. Does that seem like a path worth pursuing? Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Wrigleyville]

An MD/PhD will clean up on invites. Even more importantly, if you like research, you will be able to land the choice 2+4 residency/fellowship positions. This will allow you to only have to toil through 2 years of internal medicine as well as lock in your fellowship at the time of residency application.

The contrarian view is that you don't need a PhD to do research, an MD is plenty, and no straight-up PhD respects the PhD aspect of an MD/PhD. As mentioned above, everyone dismisses it as a masters degree.

 

[mytirf]

The contrarian view is that you don't need a PhD to do research, an MD is plenty, and no straight-up PhD respects the PhD aspect of an MD/PhD. As mentioned above, everyone dismisses it as a masters degree.

While I certainly agree that one does not need a PhD to do research, one does need serious research experience to perform quality independent research. I will also disagree that a so-called "straight-up PhD" does not respect the PhD aspect of an MD/PhD degree. As in most things in life, it really is a matter of degree.
Most university programs require an application to the graduate program of choice, at least a shortened one, often requiring GRE scores after acceptance in the MD portion of the program. That student is then held to the same requirements as other graduate students are for completion of the PhD. At least this was the case where I went, and sometimes that meant that MD/PhD students remained in the lab for 7 years with others more like 3-5 years.

And actually looking closely as the structure of a "straight-up PhD" course reveals that most students take two years of classes and then 3-4 years of research in the lab. This is very similar to again our program (which is relatively common) with taking graduate courses along with the pre-clinical classes during the initial MD years. This means that when you finish the first two years, you can hit the lab and just do research.
So I would be careful in saying that the combined program is looked down upon by other scientists. Ultimately it is what you do that counts and not how long it took you to do it.

 

[Firebird]

Realize that if you want to do MD, PhD as well as cardiology, you could very well be pushing 40 before you're finished...at the very least, 35. But I'm biased...I'm a former MD/PhD student who dropped the PhD to pursue only the MD. I did it for time reasons, as well as others.

MD/PhD paths are great if research/academic medicine is really what you want to do. If it's not, and you want to do private practice/make lots of money, you're wasting time, energy, money, etc. as a PhD candidate.

I was unaware that it was possible to do a PhD in fellowship. I am surprised the coursework transfers. AND, I'm surprised there's enough time to learn the essentials of cardiology AND perform basic science research during the 3 years of fellowship.

 

[Rocky2007]

Don't listen to the garbage posted above about the MD/PhD not being financially worth it. This is bs. For one, you may not even go into cardiology and make "$1,000,000" ... more like 350K or 600K....or you may decide to do rheum...where the $ sucks. Consider going to med school for 4 years and paying your own way...let's say tuition is $30,000 and cost of living is $20,000...at the end you're left iwth $200,000 of debt...accruing interest every frickin year...this amount of $ is equal to a house. Or you could spend 4 extra years doing something interesting and getting your tuition paid and getting a SALARY...you'll come out 4 years older but over $200,000 richer. If you do want to do cards and go into academics (research) you will not be making huge bank (probably 150-200 if that), so it will be nice to not carry around massive debt. I think the MD/PhD gives you tons of flexibilty in your career and the price you pay in terms of time (4 years) is not that bad. Additionally having the PhD makes you very very competitive for getting into prestigious residency programs. I did a MD/PhD and am thinking about doing cards...I do NOT regret the PhD one bit and I'm confident that it will help me for fellowship. Look - after the MD/Phd you'll know how to do research, present at meetings, write papers...you're light years ahead of other people who don't have this experience. Bottom line - if you like research then do the mstp...it's well worth it.

 

[alandstr]

I think I should also point out that, as an MD/PhD, it's important to realize that it's more than just a PhD. Unless you just want to get the degree and never set foot in a lab, you will need additional training as a Post-Doc before you can realistically look to start an independent research program. Also, you will be balancing research and the clinic for the rest of your life.

As many people have already said, it is important that you ONLY do the PhD if you want research to be part of your career. To do it for the resume boost is ridiculous. There are many things you can do to boost your application that won't shape your entire life.

 

[PHD_2007]

Hello,
I have a few questions along some of the same lines as the OP. I recently received my doctorate in Developmental Cardiology and I am very interested in a career in academic medicine. However, I don't have a clear understanding on how to balance research and clinical duties. I know this can be done and I was wondering if any of you can explain this to me. Also, if you know any MD/PhD's that are currently undertaken this path please PM me their email addresses. Thank you!!!!