MD-PhD and EM

[donesoon]

Hi there,

Are there any MD-PhD residents or attendings out there who'd be willing to talk about their successes and frustrations in doing EM versus a more "traditional" research specialty (ie., medicine, pathology, neurology)? I am thinking that the flexible schedule would be great in terms of running a lab but am concerned about the opportunities and funding.

Thanks,
DS

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[roja]

Your question is a little difficult to answer. I am not a PhD but I know several who are in EM. They do alot of clinical/epi type research.

I have met several others who have thier PhD's and work in labs, mostly funded by NIH dollars so they have significant protected time.

In terms of running a lab, I know several toxicologists who work alot in the lab. The schedule works well.

More important is that you pick a specialty that you enjoy. (if you are doing bench research supported by grants, it doesn't really matter what specialty you go into as part of the grant will go to 'pay' for you clinical time).

 

[RxnMan]

Hi there,

Are there any MD-PhD residents or attendings out there who'd be willing to talk about their successes and frustrations in doing EM versus a more "traditional" research specialty (ie., medicine, pathology, neurology)? I am thinking that the flexible schedule would be great in terms of running a lab but am concerned about the opportunities and funding.

Thanks,
DS

There are a two MD/PhDs that post(ed) here. Hard24Get is currently a PGY-1 in EM, and ERMudPhud is an attending. Search for either of their posts and you may find some answers.

 

[Hard24Get]

Well, the only success I have under my belt so far is matching in EM
I can tell you I was well received but my path was and continues to be dogged by naysayers.

Few programs offer a physician-scientist track (U Chicago does) and though there is a smattering of successful EM basic science and T1 translational researchers out there you won't be going down a well-trodden path. As Roja says, funding will not be your issue as the NIH determines this kind of thing independent of clinical department, and most academic institutions will offer you protected research time (though you need to analyze whether they are offering you a sufficient amount to get a project/lab going). Now, if you are thinking of clinical research, that path is much more hashed out.

Here are some examples of folks in the field doing basic stuff (keep in mind not all MD-PhDs are physician scientists and not all physician scientists are MD-PhDs):

http://www.med.upenn.edu/ins/faculty/neumar.htm

http://www.med.umich.edu/em/research/younger/staff.htm

http://affiliatedresidency.health.pitt.edu/personnelDetail.asp?pid=1038&id=661&ptype=2&pnavcat=2

http://em.uchicago.edu/bd_faculty.html

http://www.em.emory.edu/research_basic.html

http://www.med.upenn.edu/apps/faculty/index.php/g5165284/p8123041

There are many more. I have done a lot of research on this subject. Feel free to PM me with your specific needs/interest and I'll tell you what I know.

 

[3rdJob]

Hi there,

Are there any MD-PhD residents or attendings out there who'd be willing to talk about their successes and frustrations in doing EM versus a more "traditional" research specialty (ie., medicine, pathology, neurology)? I am thinking that the flexible schedule would be great in terms of running a lab but am concerned about the opportunities and funding.

Thanks,
DS

I'm an EM attending (MD PhD (Physics)) doing basic science research, and I am NIH funded. My department is very accomodating as far as protected research time. The flexible schedule in EM I think works extremely well for me; allows me to work with my basic science colleagues who work on a more "regular" schedule than I do, as you can probably imagine. I somewhat occupy a "boundary" between EM and Biomedical Engineering, and my MD/PhD credentials allow me to "speak the language" of both my clinical and basic science colleagues. It's been and continues to be very fun and interesting. Overall, it's a very rewarding (albeit long) career path.

 

[Universe_Explorer]

I'm also an MD-PhD (well, actually a PhD-MD), and there is an PGY2 mudphud in my program as well. Like H24G, I just started my EM training - so I can't speak for the life of an attending - but my career plans were also well received on the interview trail. Though my graduate work was in basic science, I matched into a program where clinical research in my field of interest has recently begun and it looks like I'll be able to play a significant role in it during residency. While interviewing, I spoke with two great EM attendings doing translational research in EM (Callaway at Pitt, and Nuemar at Penn), and they both seemed very satisfied with their careers. It's my opinion that as EM Departments continue to grow and strive for equal footing with Medicine and Surgery in the world of academia researchers in the field will have greater professional opportunities. However, in the long run it's just about doing what you love (see 3rdjob's post).

 

[ERMudPhud]

Here are some examples of folks in the field doing basic stuff (keep in mind not all MD-PhDs are physician scientists and not all physician scientists are MD-PhDs):

http://www.med.upenn.edu/ins/faculty/neumar.htm

Here is another one you missed.

http://www.med.upenn.edu/apps/faculty/index.php/g321/p16500

And some related threads
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=364034
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=325349
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=286608
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=253731
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=137865
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=84484
I think I was more motivated/naive back then

A few years ago I resigned my research appointment and gave up my grants. Now I work about 80-100 hours a month in a community hospital and spend the rest of the time with my kids. In the end I got tired of trying to do two careers and the siren song of great money with lots of time to spend skiing with my kids was irresistible. I still think EM is a great field for basic researchers. I am happy to see the number of MDPhud's in EM growing since at the time I started I think Hard24's entire list could have been counted on one hand plus or minus a few fingers.

Since I'm not really working as an "ERmudphud" anymore and don't hang out here anymore maybe I should retire or sell the screen name

 

[donesoon]

Thanks for all the great replies and PMs. I just wanted to follow up for anyone else who might be interested in this in the future. Most of the faculty I spoke to were encouraging of my research interests but commented that realistically there's only a handful of programs out there (previously mentioned) that have the departmental infrastructure and collaborative mechanisms in place to support basic science research. For a fledgling researcher this support and collaboration is really important as the first few junior faculty years can make or break your (research) career, for the first K or CDA but especially for the first R01. This isn't a problem if you're not geographically limited, or if you're confident and independent in your research. Of course all this applies to basic science; there's a lot more clinical research opportunities in EM.

A traditional route would probably open more doors early in a career, in terms of bench research support and mentorship. The big downside is that you obviously can't ever practice EM.

Bottom line for me- Running a lab in EM can be done but it can be a challenge to work out the details. The ideal post-residency fellowship and first faculty position would be at one of those above-mentioned places where EM has already invested in basic science and developed collaborations with other specialties. The final outcome can be pretty sweet with 1-2 shifts in the ED/wk and the rest of the time in the lab.