MD/PhD Applicants: Let's Talk!

[Seal]

Hi everybody,

I'm new to this forum, and after looking at a lot of these posts, I am really impressed by the great advice and interesting dialogues everybody here participates in. I was wondering, though, if there are any MD/PhD applicants out there who are trying to decide which schools to attend. There are so many other topics on MD admissions...

Since we are a pretty limited applicant pool, I think it would be interesting to start a conversation amongst us: we can discuss different issues such as what factors we are looking for in an MST program, what schools we are considering and what we perceive to be the merits/drawbacks of the schools, when we're going to revisit, and so forth. If nothing else, there is a good chance that we will end up as classmates, so why not start our dialogues now? Anybody for it?

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[ds2950]

Awesome! I have been looking for people on the forum that are considering MST programs. The advice that I've gotten has been great but there just don't seem to be too many people in the same boat.

Are you trying to make a decision? I am seriously finding that this is the hardest part of this whole process. You can see some of my previous posts as to the programs I am trying to decide between. I'm from the midwest so our applications/interviews might not overlap too much but hopefully we can get some other MSTP'ers to join in the conversation.

Thanks again for starting this thread.

 

[baylor21]

The #1 thing to look for in an MD/PhD program in my opinion is the breadth of research opportunities available. At least thats the first thing I look at since I'm not a traditional bio/chem major.



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"There is nothing more powerful on this Earth as a man who has nothing to lose. It does not take ten such men to change the world--one will do." Elijah Mohammed

 

[axlf1997]

Hi All,

Good to see that there are more MD/Ph.D. students out there. BTW, I was wondering when the reply dates on your acceptance letters are. I have two and they both ask for a reply by April 15. This seems unusual as it is before the May 15 deadline for most MD Programs. Is the case for all schools? Do we have to commit to these schools early then?

 

[Seal]

Hey, glad to see you guys replied already! Especially since, as some of you've also noticed, the deadlines are fast approaching (I have a school that also demands notification by 4-15--is this even legal by AAMC standards?? I know people last year did withdraw after that date though, I guess if they get off the waitlist for other schools or something).

To ds2950: I notice that you are trying to decide between mayo and wash U (is this correct?). I am also deciding between Wash U. and another school, Cornell. Contrary to everybody else's impression of Wash U., though, I didn't like it much the first time there. The med school is fantastic, the research opportunities are vast, the support the students get is just tremendous... I'm not quite sure why I got a negative impression (maybe it was students I met?), but I am definitely going to revisit. Are you going to do the same?

Incidentally, I'm just wondering if there other schools you guys are still holding out for? I know Yale hasn't responded yet... has Stanford given notification?

In the meantime, good luck to you all!

 

[schaunard]

I think that many MD/PhD programs would like us to make up our minds by 4/15, although Cornell is the only one which puts it in writing. In the worst case, you could accept their offer and withdraw later.

Trying to decide between Wash U (as well) and Hopkins. I'm waiting on Stanford and UCSF - haven't heard anything from either.

 

[ds2950]

I actually asked an MSTP director about the whole 4/15 issue. He said that technically they can't make you make a decision before 5/15 and that they can get in big trouble if they force you to respond sooner. I think that they just figure that most acceptances should have been out for awhile by then (except those not on rolling admissions... damn Yale!)and you should at least have it narrowed down to a few schools. It seems, though, that the schools with the strongest programs don't hold you to this since they hand out all of their acceptances rather than waiting for someone to turn them down.

Speaking of Wash U, I went on my revisit two weeks ago and really liked it. I got a better feel for the city and spent most of one day with a realtor. I'm from the midwest and even I was amazed at how affordable St. Louis is. I sat in on a first year class and was really surprised that almost no one was taking notes. I asked someone about it and they said that first year is just so laid back being pass/fail that it really isn't that hard. The best thing about the revisit is that they totally let you do what you want and don't put any pressure on you to cram things into your visit. Can you guys describe some of the things that you did/didn't like about Wash U compared to other schools you visited?

Good luck in making those tough decisions everyone!

 

[axlf1997]

It seems to vary by school. One school I called said that April 15 is not final at all and that they will understand if we withdraw or change around before May 15. Another however, said that it should be fairly final - when we send the letter in as they have to arrange the funding etc. However, they said that if we needed more time, that can be arranged.

Certainly be sure to check to see what their policy is before sending anything in.

 

[Jcrew]

I am trying to decide where to go next year. I am holding acceptances at Upenn, U of Washington (seattle), and UCLA. None of them really stand out in my area of research interest, so I'm not sure exactly what I want to do. And I'm still waiting to hear from Yale... Are any of you guys thinking about those places?

 

[MSTP I]

I'm a first year MD/PhD student at Wash U. Several of you have mentioned that you're deciding between Wash U and other programs. If you have any questions about Wash U, I'd be happy to give my opinion.

 

[schaunard]

MSTP I, I have a couple of questions:

1. What do you think of Wash U's research strengths in areas such as dev bio, biochem, or cancer biology? My impression is that Wash U is quite strong in immunology and neuroscience, but not as uniformly strong in other areas (relative to other top research universities).

2. How much lecture time do students have during the first two years, and what is the approximate breakdown between large lectures, small group discussions, and labs?

3. In terms of places to live, are there many students who stay in the dorm (Olin Hall) for a while during their first year, or do most people get off-campus as quickly as possible? I'm not sure if I'll have time to track down an apartment before I arrive, and I've heard that Olin Hall leaves much to be desired.

Thanks in advance. On the whole, I have to say that I've been quite impressed with Wash U, not just by the research, but also by the genuine niceness and intelligence of the faculty and students. It seems like I'm really nit-picking at this point...looking at small details, and trying to judge how well the place fits me overall.

 

[Seal]

To add to the list of questions for the Wash U. MSTP:

First of all, I went to my Wash U. interview with very high expectations--before I applied, I regarded Wash U. to be top choice (it is very strong in the areas of research I am interested in, and in fact is where my PI got her training). I still think that the opportunities for research are great and the program is very well-run.

However, my major concerns are about St. Louis and the rest of the MSTP students. Having only lived in very large urban cities (LA, NYC), I am still a bit unsure about St. Louis. A lot of students I met at Wash U. who were also from big cities complained about the lack of diversity. Did others of you have this same concern? Central West End seems like a very nice, affordable place, though, and I suppose there are sufficient activities for the students.

I think my major reservation regarding Wash U., however, is the students. Perhaps it's just a bad experience I had, because everybody else seem to think that the students are great. During my visit, the MSTPs (some first year, some second year) I met kept on talking about how they all formed cliques and wouldn't talk to either other or something. To MSTP I: is this really true, or did I just encounter some individuals who feel this way?

In any case, I plan on going back to revisit soon. For those of you who have gone already: what kind of activities would you recommend for me to participate in (i.e. attend lectures, more lab visits, tour city, etc.)? Thanks!

 

[mr_sparkle]

Seal,

The clique problem is not unique to Wash U. From my experience at NYU and friends at other med schools, many MD/PhD's are alienated from their med student classmates. This is not to say that everybody has a bad time. Far from it. I just have my own experience and those of other MSTP'ers at UCSD, UCLA, Columbia, and UCI, to compare to. Plus, class personality composition changes annually. Sometimes you luck out when your year happens to be a laid-back, happy bunch.

mr_sparkle

 

[MSTP I]

Thanks for the questions. I hope my answers are helpful.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by schaunard:
1. What do you think of Wash U's research strengths in areas such as dev bio, biochem, or cancer biology?•

I must admit that my areas of interest are Neuro and Immuno and I'm not very familiar with the other programs. However, I do think that Wash U is very well-rounded and there are excellent people in every department. We have top researchers and surgeons lecture to us on almost every subject. Check out Dr. Link (leukemia), Dr. Muslin (signalling, apoptosis), Dr. Stahl (biochem), Dr. Skeath (fly dev) and Dr. Waksman (crystallography).

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">2. How much lecture time do students have during the first two years, and what is the approximate breakdown between large lectures, small group discussions, and labs?•

These are just estimates. Keep in mind that lectures are OPTIONAL.

First semester: 8:30-Noon, maybe 1-4 two days a week. Lab 45%, small group discussions 25%, large lectures 30%

Second semester: 8:30-Noon, 1:00-3:00, maybe a 2 hour selective once a week. Lab 20%, small group discussions 40%, large lectures 40%.

Second year: I really don't know, but it's a busy year.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">3. In terms of places to live, are there many students who stay in the dorm (Olin Hall) for a while during their first year, or do most people get off-campus as quickly as possible?•

About 1/3 - 1/4 of students live in Olin the first year. However, about 90% of MSTPs live off campus. Many nice apartments are available for relatively cheap ($650/2 bedroom).

[This message has been edited by MSTP I (edited 03-13-2001).]

 

[MSTP I]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Seal:
However, my major concerns are about St. Louis and the rest of the MSTP students.•

Seal,
I think the students and faculty at Wash U are extremely diverse. In my class we have students from Trinidad, Taiwan, China, Korea, Kenya, England, Canada, Germany and Spain. Just about every state, ethnicity, religion and type of school are represented. The faculty is just as diverse.

St. Louis City is very diverse ethnically. Outside city limits, however, the metro area is segregated into primarily white suburbia and poor African-American neighborhoods (East and North St. Louis).

I know that St. Louis is a major deterent for some people. It was a plus for me b/c it's cheap, convenient and comfortable. When you revisit hopefully you'll get to see more of St. Louis to help you decide whether you'll be happy here.

As for the students.... I had this notion that I would be friends with all 122 of my classmates, but that just isn't possible. I know everyone's name and chat with them occasionally, but I've developed a core set of friends. Most of them happen to be MD students, and the fact that I'm MSTP is not a problem.

MSTPs are definitely NOT alienated at Wash U. There are just too many of us--20% of the class is MSTP! If anything, the med students are sometimes alienated because the school loves researchers so much.

Good luck in making your decision! If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

 

[Newbie-MSTP]

Hi guys/gals, i am new around here my name is Ricky i am a first year student at CCNY, likely transfer, but anyway i badly want to get into a M.D/Phd. program in a top school, i have a deep passion for science (even math ), i know that it takes alot of work but i am willing to try my best. I would really appreciate it if someone in the program (MSTP) would look at the following background and recommend MSTP(i heard rumors that it was too hard, etc.). Well i was a weird student in high school, i recieved a 1.6 gpa(72,C) , 1.2(65,D-) science and math gpa,but in my senior year i recieved 700+ on every portion of the SAT, (took, physics,chem,bio, and SAT I). At that point i wanted to pursue a engineering degree, but after i visited my doctor he said that i should go into med school (heh to repay all the doctors that saved my life). I researched and found MSTP and it seemed perfect but i just dont know if i am cut out for it, oh yeah maybe you can give me some advice on where to go for research etc. Thanks! (hope i didnt bore you to death)

 

[CoffeeCat]

MSTPers - I always hear that the projected length of the MSTP program is about 7-8 years. Can any of you comment on things you've heard/seen about the actual program length? Is 7-8 years common? What about 6 or 10? Thanks!

 

[Original]

7-8 yrs is pretty standard across the board. Some schools are closer to 8 while others are closer to 7. Though a couple of schools are notorious for graduating their MSTP students in 9-10 yrs. They got some NIH heat for it, so things might get better in the near future.

 

[amp]

The speed with which the mstp's get you through the ph.d. portion are a big selling point to applicants. I've found that a bunch of them say that 3 years is average, but it's really closer to 4 or more. Which isn't a bad thing. It still tends to be a lot speedier than just grad. school. And besides, if you're ready to make a commitment to doing research, another year shouldn't sway you too badly. But I found that Northwestern students take a lot longer than the school says they do. A bit misleading to applicants.

 

[CoffeeCat]

Thanks for the info! Any other comments as to which schools tend to speed through the PhD and which take much longer?

 

[Hopkins2010]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by CoffeeCat:
•Thanks for the info! Any other comments as to which schools tend to speed through the PhD and which take much longer?•••••I dont have any data in the area of actual statistics but I know that Dr. Clayton Wiley at Pitt seems to be very dedicated to maintaining a low average of years on the PhD portion. He told us that generally speaking he likes to see the MSTPers at Pitt graduate in 6 (rare) or 7 years, although there are no hard deadlines.

 

[Sonic Hedgehog]

Hi Everyone!

Axlf1997... Aren't you a little too old to be in a pre-MSTP newsgroup?

I have a question for everyone -- especially for Shaunard...

I'm considering among Cornell/Rockefeller/SKI, Columbia, Wash.U and Johns Hopkins. I'm wondering for those of you who visited the MSTP at Hopkins and/or received funded offers, what do you think?

Personally, I loved the people who administer the program, the director, and the students seemed to be very nice and friendly. I didn't see anything that gave me second thoughts, but I'm wondering if there's anything I missed.

 

[JJ4]

Hey Sonic...

Among those slots -- I'd drop Columbia outta the picture. I know three guys in their program and they aren't the happiest bunch of mudphuds I've met in a long time. Mike Shilanski tends to like to keep their students for a LONG time. I've known of guys taking like 10-11 yrs to graduate Columbia. After thinking long and hard I actually ended up withdrawing my app from Columbia after I got into the Sinai and Mayo MD/PhD progs. I just didn't the greatest vibes from Columbia and NYU.

I wasn't offered an interview by the Tri-Institutional prog but am very sure that it's a great program. The only once concern is with some of the PIs at Rockefeller. I know a few folks at Rockefeller like Nathaniel Heintz and Mary Hatten (both are neuro-development researchers)and are EXCELLENT in the field. They have discovered some of the most important markers of development in the cerebeller research field. Also there's an excellent molecular bio guy whose work I'm somewhat familiar with -- John Kuriyan -- he's definitely a top guy in the molecular/structural world. Furthermore their signal transduction group is probably the best there is (probably even better than at Hopkins and WashU). So the concern....I noticed that many of the PIs had VERY LONG TIME CONSUMING projects. There was a guy Billy Huang who worked in Nat Heintz's lab -- his PhD took him 6 yrs to complete. I mean granted he had two Nature pubs and a Cell paper...but 11 yrs to graduate??? You should talk to 2 or 3 PIs that you may want to work with RIGHT NOW and discuss the projected project completion time.

Hopkins and WashU are EXCELLENT. The word on the street claims WashU to be the #1 MSTP in the country. And Hopkins is obviously in a league of its own. You can't go wrong. I guess you should go to the place that has a person that you would MOST like to be your mentor.

I know it's not WashU, Hopkins or Cornell -- but any thoughts on Sinai or Mayo for the MD/PhD -- I'd really love to hear your thoughts...anyone???

 

[CoffeeCat]

Another question - do people who apply MSTP usually apply to some schools as MD for backup? If so, how do you choose which to apply to MD and which MD/PhD? Can you apply to both MD and MD/PhD or do you apply MD/PhD and they can send you to MD if you get rejected from the program?

Thanks for your answers and tolerance!

 

[Original]

Yes people can apply a combination of MD and MD/PhD for various schools. I applied to 15 MD/PhD programs and 1 school regular MD. The regular was for the state school where I did undergrad. It's right across the street and I teach for their summer internship program, so I couldn't resist applying there. Yes schools would often reject an applicant from the MD/PhD program and accept the applicant into their regular MD program. I think it might be better to apply MD/PhD across the board. Even if one doesn't get an MD/PhD interview, one is still game for the MD part.

 

[Sonic Hedgehog]

JJ4 -

I've dropped Columbia off my list for some time now because I COMPLETELY agree with what you're saying. The students were not happy and all, and everyone fidgets when I ask "Are you happy here"... I asked Mike Shelanski if he thought the students here are happy and he said "whether they are happy or not is not my concern."... Whoa! As you can see, that wasn't very interesting (despite the fact that I got accepted there).

Wash.U on the other hand, is a great school, but I just didn't feel like it was active enough outside neuroscience and/or immunology. My interest is partly in neuroscience (particularly in neural development).

Cornell/R/SKI has some fantastic people and right now is in my #2 slot. I loved the people who interviewed me, and although some people get amazing publications at that place, I've heard that they get their students out pretty fast. (I work on cerebellum development so I know all about Hatten and Heintz).

Right now, Hopkins is the most appealing to me now because of the outstanding clinical training at Hopkins, the excellent research and the great integration in the program. The director Bob Siliciano is a former graduate of the program as are several members of the adcom, and I think it adds a personal touch to the way the program is run.

About MAYO VS. SINAI.... I think it's a tough call. It depends on what you want... I think if you want some really good clinical training, I would go to Mayo.. Mayo Clinic is an amazing place. For Research , Sinai is a bit better known, and it does have the appeal (or repulse) of NY -- if that matters. So I think it's a personal choice. Given the options, I would probably choose Mayo, though.

 

[Vader]

CoffeeCat,
Feel free to check out the MD/PhD application guidebook I have made available on the web at:

<a href="http://go.to/mdphd" target="_blank">http://go.to/mdphd</a>

It covers the application process, advice for during and after the program, etc. For specifics, you'll need to check with the individual programs in which you are interested. Hope this helps!