MD/PhD or super expensive 4 year MD..which one will you come out ahead?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

HelloWorld1

New Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
So I am debating between doing an MD/PhD program in the fall and a 4 year private MD school. The pros are for the MD/PhD are no debt, I love research, and it's close to home.

I just got off the waitlist at a private school where the tuition is close to 50K a year ( I am an out of state student).

If I chose to do the MD/PhD will I come out ahead financially in the long wrong by having no debt? Even though I will not be making a "doctor's salary" for 3 years like my counterparts.

Just wanted to know what you all thought.

Members don't see this ad.
 
MD/PhD is an average 8 year program, so it's 4 years of salary. Also, that's in no way guaranteed and the PhD can take longer, but we'll assume 4 years.

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2011/04/real-life-medical-school-debt.html

This blog entry breaks it down:

Annual cost of tuition: $48,000
Annual cost of attendance: $67,500 (Includes costs of books/supplies, loan fees, health insurance, licensure fees, living expenses, and transportation allowance)

Total balance after medical school: $270,000
Amount subsidized: $34,000
Amount unsubsidized: $236,000

Interest incurred during 3 years of residency: $100,000
Total balance after residency: $370,000

Monthly payment after residency: $3,370 (180 total payments)
Interest incurred after residency: $237,000
Total repayment: $607,000

We'll ignore the possibility of loan forgiveness, though that is a potential factor that could lower the MD debt.

To come out ahead financially implies making that much after tax money. Physician salaries vary WIDELY depending on the position and type of physician. This can go from $1 million/year as a spine surgeon to $100k/year as a general pediatrician. The average physician makes ~$200k/year. Your effective tax rate depends on the part of the country. Let's assume 30% on $200k/year, so your take home is $140k.

$140k * 4 years = $560k. So in that case it would be roughly even financially.

As you can see, this analysis assumes a lot of different variables. If you are in a private practice, high paying specialty, you could easily be making over $400k/year, in which case the MD only side makes much more financial sense (even at an effective tax rate of 40%, take home is $960k over 4 years).
 
Members don't see this ad :)
There's no easy answer. This decision depends on your goals, what these schools are, what your research field is in, your family factors, etc. etc. etc. and will take hours upon hours for a full evaluation.
 
Do residents try to chip away at the debt, or do they really not make enough for that?
 
if you really like research a lot, then doing a straight MD with debt does not work because you cant pay back the loans with the low research salary

Also, if you want to become a "normal" physician, it's better to just go to your state med school with scholarship than to a high ranked med school. Otherwise, you end up paying off massive amounts of debt as shown above
 
Do residents try to chip away at the debt, or do they really not make enough for that?

I asked a handful of people in my med school cohort this when they went to residency. Many of them could not afford the payments during residency. As a resident, you take in around $50,000 a year pre-tax no matter where you live (more expensive areas give you a little more but not enough to cover the cost of living difference). That means around $4100 a month before taxes. You're probably going to lose around 20% to taxes, leaving you around $3300. An apartment in many major metropolitan areas will run you $1800 a month even before utilities. Now you have $1500 to live on, which includes food, gas, car payment, licensing fees, board exams, health insurance, etc. Your student loan payments are like usually no less than $1000 a month; many people have payments up to $2000 a month. Because of this, most residents just let their debt pile up since many also have $30,000 in undergraduate debt, what's a little more? You are not required to pay any of your debt at all during residency, but the interest accumulates.
 
I asked a handful of people in my med school cohort this when they went to residency. Many of them could not afford the payments during residency.

Well, there is actually currently an income-based repayment program that lowers the payments you'd make on your public loans. It isn't enough to actually cover the interest, so the amount continues to grow, but at least you make a little progress on it. Private loans are not eligible for this. The other advantage of making payments on your public loans during residency (if you go the income-based repayment route) is that there's also currently a public service loan forgiveness program. So basically, if you make on-time payments for 10 years and work for a non-profit entity (your time during residency/fellowship counts and something like 80-90% of hospitals are "non-profit"), the balance of your public loans is forgiven. Because of these two things, my husband (and many of his coresidents) are paying off at least a portion of their loans during residency. Of course, you never know when these programs may disappear... Given the state of things in Washington currently, I wouldn't be surprised if these end up getting cut sometime soon.

That said, as debateg mentioned, the amount you make as a resident is fairly modest... But we've found (living off of his resident salary and my MD/PhD stipend as a family of 3 currently, soon to be a family of 4) that we're able to live very frugally, pay the amount we owe (through IBR) on the public loans and also money towards his private loans (total is ~$1000/month) and even save a tiny bit each month. For us, that's meant living a little bit outside of the city in a blue-collar town where we could get cheaper rent, shopping sales at the grocery store, and eating out pretty rarely (and when we eat out, we're talking Chipotle, not fancy $100 dinners). My son gets 95% of his clothes second-hand from consignment sales (the other 5% are gifts) and most of his toys & books from there as well. He doesn't know the difference :)

***

As for the original poster, I think those that have mentioned that it doesn't just come down to a money issue are right (although in your post, you've already mentioned several non-money related factors). A couple other things to think about:

- Don't discount the burden you may feel from having that much debt... even if you plan to go into a high-paying speciality. Even if logically I know that once my husband starts as an attending that he'll be making much more than he is now and that we'll be able to pay off the debt relatively quickly if we want, it's a terrible thing to look at that number in the meantime... Before we got married and I was living on my MD/PhD stipend, although it's not a ton of money, I was able to save a few thousand a year to invest in mutual funds even while living in a high cost-of-living city (although I was in student housing). I could leave at any time if I wanted from the program and not be in debt (although I would've wasted years of my life). However, for people like my husband, he really didn't have that choice after racking up that much debt. How else could he pay it off?
- Another consideration is that if you do an MD/PhD, you're essentially signing up to be a student for an extra (in all statistical likeliness) 3-4 years. At 21 or 22, that may not sound like a huge deal, but you may feel differently at 29 or 30 especially when you have more years of training (as a resident and potentially as a fellow ahead of you).
- If you think there's a possibility that you might want to start a family in the next 8, 10, 12 years... look at the other "women & tenure clock thread"

I could go on... but I won't :)
 
IMHO, do MD only. Leave MD/PhD to people who are totally committed. If you are doubting it now, it will only get worse, and you will end up regretting it.
 
Thanks everyone for your replies! I am a little older, 27 years old and have two children. I do love research and if I were coming right out of college into a Md/PhD program I would not hesitate for a second. The prospect of so much debt is a little unnerving for my wife and I soto hear all of your advice and thoughts is truly appreciated.
 
This is probably a dumb question, but you get deferment for undergrad loans while in an MD/PhD program right; meaning it doesn't collect interest and you don't have to make payments?
 
Thanks everyone for your replies! I am a little older, 27 years old and have two children. I do love research and if I were coming right out of college into a Md/PhD program I would not hesitate for a second. The prospect of so much debt is a little unnerving for my wife and I soto hear all of your advice and thoughts is truly appreciated.

If your MD/PhD is 8 years, and you have a 3 year residency program, you'll be close to 40 by the time you actually start practicing, or even doing research. The PhD is not a waste of time if it will factor into what you want to do. The question you need to answer is how much will a PhD further your career that an MD can't? I would perhaps show your wife the math that people in this thread did with regards to the finances of doing either degree. Do you want to mostly practice, or do you have serious intentions of combining the two?
 
This is probably a dumb question, but you get deferment for undergrad loans while in an MD/PhD program right; meaning it doesn't collect interest and you don't have to make payments?

It depends.

For virtually all educational loans (whether private or federal), there is an option for in-school deferment, so you don't have to make payments.

However, whether interest accrues depends on the type of loan. Almost all private loans, all unsubsidized Stafford loans, and all PLUS loans accrue interest while in deferment. Subsidized Stafford loans and Perkins loans generally do not.
 
Another vote for MD only. It sounds like you have a good life with a wife and kids right now. Coming out with no debt is not a solid reason for going with MD/PhD. As Neuronix said, you come out roughly even financially if you decide to go into academia as MD only. However we also need to factor in the time cost. You lose 4 years of your life. Money you can always earn back but time is gone forever my friend.
 
To address where you would come out "ahead" financially- there is no doubt- MD only. 2 reasons-

1. If you do the PhD, you will spend 4-6 years in the lab. That means you practice medicine for 4-6 years LESS than you would as an MD only. You should not be subtracting your MD total earnings from the beginning of your career- but from the end, where you will be earning the most money.

2. As an MD-only you will have a real job sooner- in as little as 7 years- when you need the money the MOST. Student loan payments are a biatch but: A- you will be in deferment during residency, so you can (sort of) forget about it, and B- you can stagger payments to be cheaper on the front end, AND with monthly paychecks in the range of $14K, you will be more than able to afford them.

Contrast that with surviving on ~$30K/year for the next 8-12 years, and then basically double than for 3-6 years after that.
 
Last edited:
Things are changing in both science and medicine. Given the economic trajectory of this country, diversification may be key to getting a job, keeping a job, and having the mobility and adaptability to find a job in this or other countries. Having a dual degree releases you from a real debt burden, increased your appeal for many future employers and opens up 2+ career paths before you. I encourage everyone to have this mindset at all levels of training. In college you should major in 2 useful majors, in medical school consider a dual degree, consider a residency + fellowship that gives you versatility (eg primary care + fellowship + hospitalist + proceduralist + intensivist), learn foreign languages, etc. Don't pigeonhole yourself into something that may be lucrative today but may not even be around tomorrow.
 
Top