MD vs. DO debate again please

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doctorbob1312

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I am sorry if i am a little off on the timing of this one, but I am in the middle of deciding between a good MD school and a top 5 D.O. school. I was just wondering if anyone has been in similar situations if they could share their insight/what they chose/etc.?

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Please use the forum search. You will find extensive talk on this VERY subject. Good luck.
 
You know MD and DO schools aren't really ranked on separate scales. Where the DO school ranks amongst other DO schools tells nothing about how it stacks up against the allopathic school you're looking at.

Anyway, yeah, a search is probably best.
 
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doctorbob1312 said:
I am sorry if i am a little off on the timing of this one, but I am in the middle of deciding between a good MD school and a top 5 D.O. school. I was just wondering if anyone has been in similar situations if they could share their insight/what they chose/etc.?

Thanks and glad to be a member now!
Click to expand...

Go to an M.D. school. I don't know what this D.O. thing is. Aren't they like chiropractors or something?
 
Go to an M.D. school. I don't know what this D.O. thing is. Aren't they like chiropractors or something?
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You forgot the :rolleyes: ...

Anyway, I don't have the energy to start another DO vs. MD argument. I third the request to do a search; there is some fairly recent material on this subject. Just ignore the flames.
 
doctorbob1312 said:
I am sorry if i am a little off on the timing of this one, but I am in the middle of deciding between a good MD school and a top 5 D.O. school. I was just wondering if anyone has been in similar situations if they could share their insight/what they chose/etc.?

Thanks and glad to be a member now!
Click to expand...

I think it's reasonable to assume that in the pre-allo board, the response will be heavilly skewed toward the allo choice. So no legit reason to pursue this further here, on a topic that generally degrades into a flame war. Do a search and you will find literally housands of MD/DO related posts.
 
Out of curiousity OP,

how did you come across a ranking of the top 5 d.o. schools or where did you get this ranking system from?
 
doctorbob1312 said:
I am sorry if i am a little off on the timing of this one, but I am in the middle of deciding between a good MD school and a top 5 D.O. school. I was just wondering if anyone has been in similar situations if they could share their insight/what they chose/etc.?

Thanks and glad to be a member now!
Click to expand...

Go to the MD school.
 
:barf:

Please, have some mercy. Haven't we had enough of these? These boards have an excellent search function. Or you can just look for the locked threads. A good chunk of them are MD vs. DO threads that (inevitably) degenerated into flamewars.
 
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I'd go to a MD school over an optomitry school anyday:rolleyes:
 
MD fits most peoples goals...for some DO is appropriate
 
Keep this thread civil and I won't close it. Otherwise... to the OP, use the search feature and look for the scores of threads that talk about these. Its best to just let this thread die out.
 
doctorbob1312 said:
I am sorry if i am a little off on the timing of this one, but I am in the middle of deciding between a good MD school and a top 5 D.O. school. I was just wondering if anyone has been in similar situations if they could share their insight/what they chose/etc.?

Thanks and glad to be a member now!
Click to expand...

yo man - it's pretty simple. You either believe in the osteopathic philosophy and believe in OMM or you don't. If you are a believer and you wish to practice OMM, then obviously you need to go DO. If you want to become a physician withou OMM - then you might as well go MD if you have the chance.

If you don't care about the stigma of a DO, and the DO school is cheaper or you can get a scholarship, then go with DO. BUT, what's the point? Why take both the COMLEX and USMLE's just to become a physician and deal with stigma? My opinion is, if you don't plan on practicing OMM and/or other DO procedures (if there are more) then you might as well get an MD if you can.
 
Just keep in mind that happiness is not defined on the degree. After residency, DOs and MDs will make the same salary and do the same things. Ultimately happiness is having a family, having kids (or not), having a job to support them, living comfortably and being alive. Those are the main things that should factor into how happy someone should be. Dont make two letters that follow your last name define it.
 
braluk said:
Just keep in mind that happiness is not defined on the degree. After residency, DOs and MDs will make the same salary and do the same things. Ultimately happiness is having a family, having kids (or not), having a job to support them, living comfortably and being alive. Those are the main things that should factor into how happy someone should be. Dont make two letters that follow your last name define it.
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No - I don't agree with you.

Although that is certainly how I would choose to define my happiness (what you just posted), you can't say "ultimately happiness is..." because happiness is an experience - how someone experiences happiness depends on the person - not on what others, especially society, feel is "true" happiness.

Please keep an open mind.

The only thing that I would say is ultimate, is ultimately trying to be happy more than you are sad while you are alive - as for how or what you do to achieve happiness, there is no ultimate.
 
braluk said:
Just keep in mind that happiness is not defined on the degree. After residency, DOs and MDs will make the same salary and do the same things. Ultimately happiness is having a family, having kids (or not), having a job to support them, living comfortably and being alive. Those are the main things that should factor into how happy someone should be. Dont make two letters that follow your last name define it.
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This might be the best advice I've seen come out of either pre-MD/DO forum in a looooooong time.

But, I think you should add: "and the occaisional swig of Bourbon, unless you're alcoholic."
 
xylem29 said:
No - I don't agree with you.

Although that is certainly how I would choose to define my happiness (what you just posted), you can't say "ultimately happiness is..." because happiness is an experience - how someone experiences happiness depends on the person - not on what others, especially society, feel is "true" happiness.

Please keep an open mind.

The only thing that I would say is ultimate, is ultimately trying to be happy more than you are sad while you are alive - as for how or what you do to achieve happiness, there is no ultimate.
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I completely agree. Without turning this into a philosophical debate, happiness is a relative thing. Some people are not interested in having children or starting a family and place a lot of stock in career and career opportunities. For these people, an MD degree might be a very key source of happiness.
 
Green Pirate said:
I completely agree. Without turning this into a philosophical debate, happiness is a relative thing. Some people are not interested in having children or starting a family and place a lot of stock in career and career opportunities. For these people, an MD degree might be a very key source of happiness.
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Well, everyone will have his/her own answer to happiness,
but I think a person would have to be a very odd bird if

having (people you care about in your life), having a job (you enjoy), living comfortably and being alive (...paraphrased, obviously)

didn't factor somewhere in that definition.
 
:laugh: Well, I think a philosophical debate about the meaning of happiness is actually a more fruitful activity than debating the worn-out "MD vs DO" stuff.

I think happiness is a state; it isn't dependent on anything external.
 
Jack Daniel said:
Well, everyone will have his/her own answer to happiness,
but I think a person would have to be a very odd bird if

having (people you care about in your life), having a job (you enjoy), living comfortably and being alive (...paraphrased, obviously)

didn't factor somewhere in that definition.
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Hey, that's cool - see, that's your opinion. You would think them to be odd, but does this even matter to them? No, b/c as I said before - I personally feel that in life, we should strive to spend more time being "happy" than being "sad, upset, angry" etc - and other people's opinions have abosultely no bearing on that - unless your mind is so weak as to be bothered by other people's opinion of you, otherwise - you can think them odd all you want, but it makes no difference in the grand scheme of things...b/c if true happiness for them does not include X but does include Y, and they experience Y - even if you think true happiness should include X - for them, they're experiencing their true happiness, rather than the sh*tty feelings of anger, sadness, etc...and that's all that matters.
 
I guess happiness is a relative state. I apologize for not defining it. If MD or a DO is what defines happiness then more power to them. If indeed happiness is an MD, and that individual got into a DO, or vice versa, then does one really need to question about what to do in such a situation? That is, if the ultimate goal is to get one of the degrees, and in pursuit of happiness, do they need to think twice to achieve that goal?

One thing I see often here are students who ask, DO vs. MD? This of course, degrades into a flinging of insults back and forth until the OP is just more confused than before- it's counterproductive. Theres nothing wrong with a healthy debate, but more often than not, it's about ego, and who's treading on them. These debates are often fueled mostly by passion, and usually less about figures and facts. This is why DO vs. MD threads are rarely welcomed anymore as an educational function.

Happiness is often (not always) absolute, instinct will tell you if you are happy...or not. When it comes to choosing DO vs. MD, it only can really be answered by doing a little soul searching and finding out, What Makes You Happy? If its things in my abovementioned post, then its clear cut that you should do what it takes, independent of the degree, to get there. If its a matter of the actual degree, then it should be clear that a reapplication is in order. Of course, life is a mix of both, but the only answer that can be elicited is that found within yourself. All I'm saying is, don't get so worked up over what other people tell you (such as an anonymous forum). As xylem said, other's peoples opinions should matter very little in your quest for content. If, of course, your happiness is defined by others, you may need to do a little reordering of your priorities. Ultimately, do what makes you happy. You'll figure it out yourself by listening to your instincts. If you're confused, posting on here will probably make you more confused. The best way to answer this is to follow in the footsteps of both types of physicians and see if their lifestyles can apply to you and sway you towards one decision over another. A philisophical debate about happiness, if degree, or life in the future, or whatever defines happiness cannot be answered here, and shouldn't be answered here.
 
xylem29 said:
Hey, that's cool - see, that's your opinion. You would think them to be odd, but does this even matter to them? No, b/c as I said before - I personally feel that in life, we should strive to spend more time being "happy" than being "sad, upset, angry" etc - and other people's opinions have abosultely no bearing on that - unless your mind is so weak as to be bothered by other people's opinion of you, otherwise - you can think them odd all you want, but it makes no difference in the grand scheme of things...b/c if true happiness for them does not include X but does include Y, and they experience Y - even if you think true happiness should include X - for them, they're experiencing their true happiness, rather than the sh*tty feelings of anger, sadness, etc...and that's all that matters.
Click to expand...

:eek: so painful to read
 
braluk said:
Ultimately, do what makes you happy. You'll figure it out yourself by listening to your instincts. If you're confused, posting on here will probably make you more confused. The best way to answer this is to follow in the footsteps of both types of physicians and see if their lifestyles can apply to you and sway you towards one decision over another.
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:thumbup:
 
Uh ... what's a "D.O."?
;)

I actually don't mind the inevitable digression into an allo/osteo war. Its at least something to get the blood pumping on a Monday morning.. (I know, my karma is going to suffer). Even though we all know that it doesn't really matter, don't you find yourself watching these debates anyway? Its almost like a trainwreck, you see it coming but just can't look away.
 
Do what you feel is right. Me, personally? MD all day every day

BTW, aren't some specialties closed to DO's or considerably harder to get into. I ask because at medschoolready.com, it lists specialties and there are way fewer DO spots available for certain specialties and I think some are even closed...http://www.medschoolready.com/app/specialtylist.asp

look at rad onc, it says 0 DO spots available...just thought you should know
 
that's odd bc a world-renowned rad onc told me that I should consider PCOM (read: you are incorrect)

Here's the basic look at the ranking systems.. let me put it mathematically (ducks and covers..)

Prestige = Money
Money in Academia = Research
Lots of Research = basis for ranking
ranking = basis for competitive admissions
basis for competitive admissions = pre-med interest

Whether you ascribe to this modality of thought is up to your personal decision. DO schools are typically not high on the totem pole in rankings because they do not commonly or historically focus on research, although this is slowly changing. Combine that with the fact that the majority always fears and dislikes the minority because they are different and you have two large contributing factors to the "stigma" facing Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine today.
 
MaximusD said:
that's odd bc a world-renowned rad onc told me that I should consider PCOM
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Maybe I'm wrong...I'm getting my info straight from that website, perhaps you should contact its web manager...

Also are you sure that the rad onc told you to consider PCOM with the idea that you are interested in going into rad onc?
 
BrianUM said:
Maybe I'm wrong...I'm getting my info straight from that website, perhaps you should contact its web manager...

Also are you sure that the rad onc told you to consider PCOM with the idea that you are interested in going into rad onc?
Click to expand...

I told him i wanted to be able to attain competitive residencies if I chose to. He continually asks whether I got into PCOM each time I talk to him. It's tough having your biased predisposition shattered, isn't it? Even after I tell you this, you are going to insist to everyone you know that DOs are in some way inferior. That is the problem with the "stigma" on these boards. Reason and logic fail to provide a good deterrent when anonymity's involved.
 
MaximusD said:
I told him i wanted to be able to attain competitive residencies if I chose to. He continually asks whether I got into PCOM each time I talk to him. It's tough having your biased predisposition shattered, isn't it?
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lol

didnt mean for this argument to turn this way, i'm just reporting what I see. I have nothing against seeing a DO physician for example, they are well trained and know what they are doing..... but if that website is indeed accurate, its probably better that you or other DO candidates know about it now before you are actually in school

Looking at that website, some specialties indeed have many spots open for DO's. Also, I'm sure you're competing against less people as an MD would so the disparity may not be so great.

If I'm a DO candidate, however, and I am interested in doing rad onc, I would be pretty worried and contact that website's manger to find out where he/she got his info...
 
LOL I GET IT!

It doesnt' mean that's it not available to DO's. It means that there are no DO-accredited spots. All of the residency positions are allopathic. ANY DO can enter the allopathic match and compete for any of those 121 national spots. DO students often take the USMLE step 1 to be on the same footing as their allopathic counterparts.
 
MaximusD said:
LOL I GET IT!

It doesnt' mean that's it not available to DO's. It means that there are no DO-accredited spots. All of the residency positions are allopathic. ANY DO can enter the allopathic match and compete for any of those 121 national spots. DO students often take the USMLE step 1 to be on the same footing as their allopathic counterparts.
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well there you go, I learn something new every day

This wasnt a personal rant against DO's, just something I came across. No one is better or worse than anyone else
 
BrianUM said:
well there you go, I learn something new every day

This wasnt a personal rant against DO's, just something I came across. No one is better or worse than anyone else
Click to expand...

yeah i apologize for the misunderstanding. I jumped on you bc I thought you meant that no DOs can get in... should have looked at the website in the first place.
 
additional clarification in case anyone is confused...

http://www.medschoolready.com/app/residencyconsiderations.asp

scroll down to where it says MD and DO residencies

wow I learned a lot actually

about 32,000 applicants (inluding MD, DO, IMG) for about 22,000 total spots of which 1,000 is DO accreditted

about 17,000 MD applicants, 3,000 DO applicants and 12,000 IMG's

for 22,000 spots

DO's can enter the MD match for the 21,000 spots. However, the above website says that they have a lower match rate, may have a harder time to match into more competitive residiencies, and may not be able to get their medical license in certain states because they matched outisde of DO's...bottom line though is that if you work hard enough, it looks possible to get any residency regardless if you are MD or DO...

all this info from: http://www.medschoolready.com/app/residencyconsiderations.asp
 
Max you are acting like Radonc is going to be an easy road, much less from a DO school. Radonc is not exactly easy to get into from an allo school; going DO is going to put you at even more of a disadvantage like it or not.

Sure it is 'possible' to get into any allo residency but especially Radonc which is highly research oriented, it will be harder.

IN 2005 only 11 non-US seniors were awarded radonc spots according to the histogram. This includes Canadian MDs, FMGs, 5th pathway kids, DOs and physicians re-entering residency. That boils down to only a 20% acceptance rate for that entire group. DOs are not specifically singled out so you cant really tell where they stand in that list or if any applied.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Max you are acting like Radonc is going to be an easy road, much less from a DO school. Radonc is not exactly easy to get into from an allo school; going DO is going to put you at even more of a disadvantage like it or not.

Sure it is 'possible' to get into any allo residency but especially Radonc which is highly research oriented, it will be harder.

IN 2005 only 11 non-US seniors were awarded radonc spots according to the histogram. This includes Canadian MDs, FMGs, 5th pathway kids, DOs and physicians re-entering residency. That boils down to only a 20% acceptance rate for that entire group. DOs are not specifically singled out so you cant really tell where they stand in that list or if any applied.
Click to expand...

I don't think I acted that way at all. I just said that the option is open. I never made any sort of value judgement on the difficulty of entering radiation oncology. I know that it is extremely difficult for allopathic and osteopathic students alike.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Max you are acting like Radonc is going to be an easy road, much less from a DO school. Radonc is not exactly easy to get into from an allo school; going DO is going to put you at even more of a disadvantage like it or not.

Sure it is 'possible' to get into any allo residency but especially Radonc which is highly research oriented, it will be harder.

IN 2005 only 11 non-US seniors were awarded radonc spots according to the histogram. This includes Canadian MDs, FMGs, 5th pathway kids, DOs and physicians re-entering residency. That boils down to only a 20% acceptance rate for that entire group. DOs are not specifically singled out so you cant really tell where they stand in that list or if any applied.
Click to expand...

why does "non-US seniors" include US-trained DO's?
 
BrianUM said:
additional clarification in case anyone is confused...

http://www.medschoolready.com/app/residencyconsiderations.asp

scroll down to where it says MD and DO residencies

wow I learned a lot actually

about 32,000 applicants (inluding MD, DO, IMG) for about 22,000 total spots of which 1,000 is DO accreditted

about 17,000 MD applicants, 3,000 DO applicants and 12,000 IMG's

for 22,000 spots

DO's can enter the MD match for the 21,000 spots. However, the above website says that they have a lower match rate, may have a harder time to match into more competitive residiencies, and may not be able to get their medical license in certain states because they matched outisde of DO's...bottom line though is that if you work hard enough, it looks possible to get any residency regardless if you are MD or DO...

all this info from: http://www.medschoolready.com/app/residencyconsiderations.asp
Click to expand...


It's an exaggeration. In most cases you can petition the AOA for approval of a non-AOA accredited residency (AGCME).
 
braluk said:
After residency, DOs and MDs will make the same salary and do the same things.
Click to expand...

not really, unless you mean after the same residency. as an osteopath, you'll have a tougher time matching into the most competitive (and most lucrative) specialities. although in theory a do has about the same chance as an md of eventually ending up as a ct surgeon, i'm sure it's much less likely. correct me if i'm incorrect.

(wow, i never thought i'd ever post in a md/do thread in my life...)
 
etf said:
not really, unless you mean after the same residency. as an osteopath, you'll have a tougher time matching into the most competitive (and most lucrative) specialities. although in theory a do has about the same chance as an md of eventually ending up as a ct surgeon, i'm sure it's much less likely. correct me if i'm incorrect.
Click to expand...

There are general surg, derm, ortho, etc..osteopathic residencies open to only (unfairly) DO graduates in addition to their chances, whatever they may be, at allopathic residencies. A DO dermatologist will make the same salary as an MD dermatologist. A DO orthopedic surgeon will make the same salary as an MD orthopedic surgeon. And of course, the dead last choice in fields of medicine, that carries the least amount of prestige and every pre-med's worst nightmare, a DO family practice physician will make the same salary as an MD family practice physician.
 
J1515 said:
There are general surg, derm, ortho, etc..osteopathic residencies open to only (unfairly) DO graduates in addition to their chances, whatever they may be, at allopathic residencies. A DO dermatologist will make the same salary as an MD dermatologist. A DO orthopedic surgeon will make the same salary as an MD orthopedic surgeon. And of course, the dead last choice in fields of medicine, that carries the least amount of prestige and every pre-med's worst nightmare, a DO family practice physician will make the same salary as an MD family practice physician.
Click to expand...


I don't think its unfair when you look at the spots available for only DO (about 1000) and the number that apply, about 3,000. The point is that outside of those 1000 spots, the other 2000 DO applicants will have to compete against 17,000 or so MD graduates and about 12,000 IMG's for the other 21,000 spots....its possible for a DO to match outside of those 1000 spots but they better be REALLY good students...also some of those 1000 DO only spots, from my understanding, don't even cover all specialties...I believe the website I cited before said that for Rad Onc and Pathology there are O DO only spots
 
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