MD vs DO for relatively high demand, low competition medical professions

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jonpalnile said:
Wait so are you guys saying that in the near future we are going to have students with 200k+ debt that don't match into any field? I'm actually personally interested in FM and EM. Will some of the DO students, interested in these fields, that are ranked close to the bottom in their class really not get ANY residency?
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I don't think I said anything about DO students not matching into any specialty. The importance of FM will likely guarantee the continued growth of that specialty. EM will probably become more difficult, but unlikely to be due solely to DO vs MD.

Students ranked close to the bottom of their class have always have issues matching; this will never change for obvious reasons.
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Go to UC Davis. It's not really a debate. Being a DO puts a target on you and automatically more is expected from you. Also, you don't know how your interests will change as your education progresses. Wanting to be a PCP before starting medical school can drastically change when you start your third year rotations. It's basically a guarantee UC Davis has those covered quite well. With Western, more likely than not it's a shot in the dark regrettably.
 
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IslandStyle808 said:
Oh god you should read the allo forums, there are a lot of people who think Trump will change healthcare for the good of everyone. lol
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I am optimistic yet skeptical
 
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Geraltofrivia said:
Go to UC Davis. It's not really a debate. Being a DO puts a target on you and automatically more is expected from you. Also, you don't know how your interests will change as your education progresses. Wanting to be a PCP before starting medical school can drastically change when you start your third year rotations. It's basically a guarantee UC Davis has those covered quite well. With Western, more likely than not it's a shot in the dark regrettably.
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I'm not even taking OP seriously. Likely a troll. I mean how uninformed do you have to be for this to even be a choice?
 
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SLC said:
If you do rural primary care you'll get loans paid for.
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Does it make any difference if those loans are private loans? If one can't get private loans paid for, could they negotiate a higher salary?
 
IslandStyle808 said:
Its not so much the fields themselves, but the fact that its easier to match into those fields as a whole. As mentioned above, its a pissing contest with people on here. Just matching into fields like derm, rad onc, and plastics is impressive no matter what the residency. However, if you match into IM in a rural town of 10,000; then it is looked at as a poor match. But matching in MGH in IM is looked at as an insanely impressive match, which no DO has done that I know of. This is what the argument is in reference to.
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Not arguing here, but FWIW, http://www.massgeneral.org/heartcenter/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=2317 i know she did a fellowship, not a residency...but just thought it was interesting. I think she is also an assistant prof at Harvard medical school.
 
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The debt incurred alone should force your hand to Davis
 
STG1021 said:
Not arguing here, but FWIW, http://www.massgeneral.org/heartcenter/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=2317 i know she did a fellowship, not a residency...but just thought it was interesting. I think she is also an assistant prof at Harvard medical school.
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Of KCU grads there are also these:
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/staff_directory/staff_display?DoctorID=337
http://www.kumc.edu/school-of-medicine/internal-medicine/hmct/faculty/joseph-mcguirk.html

Two at Mayo Clinic, one for general surgery and another for dermatology.
One who did IM at CCF --> Heme/Onc at CU Denver --> Bone marrow transplant at UC San Fransisco (NOT fresno, the SF one)
Another who is currently doing gastroenterology at Wake Forest Health

Outside of KCU but DO:
http://profiles.ucsd.edu/mary.krinsky

These are very successful but IMO "zebras" amongst the crowd of graduating DO's in the way of a matching and/or being in academic medicine as appointed faculty.
 
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Drrrrrr. Celty said:
You're free to look up the match lists of LMU, WCU, and a few others. 80-90% of their class is in FM, IM, Peds and in either low tier community acgme or aoa residencies. They will almost certainly not be going into subspecialties and will likely go into general practice.

There are many IM subspecialties and same in Peds. Some of which are very easy to obtain. However the general trend is that people in low tier community and aoa residencies is that they don't end up seeking them. So that 80-90% is closer to being that number even after considering subspecialization out of PC.

Also mind you that PC isn't anything to be ashamed of.
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Not trying to argue one way or the other about the whole primary care thing but just wanted everyone to know some schools like LMU actually "cook the books" to make it appear as if they have more people entering primary care than they actually do... https://www.lmunet.edu/news/view?id=134
I don't think most consider EM, OBGYN, rotating internship and OMM traditional PC. Yet again nothing at all wrong with PC and it's their missions so I can see why they do it but browsing the website I noticed this and thought it was interesting seeing as how this 80% thing keeps getting thrown out a lot.
 
Umbrella13 said:
Not trying to argue one way or the other about the whole primary care thing but just wanted everyone to know some schools like LMU actually "cook the books" to make it appear as if they have more people entering primary care than they actually do... https://www.lmunet.edu/news/view?id=134
I don't think most consider EM, OBGYN, rotating internship and OMM traditional PC. Yet again nothing at all wrong with PC and it's their missions so I can see why they do it but browsing the website I noticed this and thought it was interesting seeing as how this 80% thing keeps getting thrown out a lot.
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Give or take, not including Ob/Gyn the amount of people in non-primary care fields in a class of 225 = 45, lets go ahead and round that to 50.
50/225 = 22%. Thus 78% of the class is in primary care.

But this is not my point. I'm simply saying that outside of established or city based DO schools the vast majority of your class will go into primary care and specifically this number is not going to change by more than probably 10-20% after subspecialization when you consider where ppl matched, i.e low tier acgme and aoa residences.
 
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Only 48-49% of the graduating classes in the past four years for my school go to PC.
 
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AlteredScale said:
Of KCU grads there are also these:
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/staff_directory/staff_display?DoctorID=337
http://www.kumc.edu/school-of-medicine/internal-medicine/hmct/faculty/joseph-mcguirk.html

Two at Mayo Clinic, one for general surgery and another for dermatology.
One who did IM at CCF --> Heme/Onc at CU Denver --> Bone marrow transplant at UC San Fransisco (NOT fresno, the SF one)
Another who is currently doing gastroenterology at Wake Forest Health

Outside of KCU but DO:
http://profiles.ucsd.edu/mary.krinsky

These are very successful but IMO "zebras" amongst the crowd of graduating DO's in the way of a matching and/or being in academic medicine as appointed faculty.
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Not surprised at the guy from KU. From what I have heard KU is pretty DO friendly. Their general surgery residency definitely has a few from KCU almost each year, and I know there is one doing derm there too.
 
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STG1021 said:
Not surprised at the guy from KU. From what I have heard KU is pretty DO friendly. Their general surgery residency definitely has a few from KCU almost each year, and I know there is one doing derm there too.
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I am more surprised the DO at KU did his internal medicine residency at Yale!
 
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There are definitely DO's creeping steadily into non-primary care fields at the university institution I'm at these days.
 
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AlteredScale said:
I am more surprised the DO at KU did his internal medicine residency at Yale!
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My Friend did her Internal at yale and shes a MSUCOM alum. Things are changing but not fast enough in my opinion
 
TheaterOfTheme said:
What kinda stats do you have to have to pull that?


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She never told me her board scores but she did say she was at the bottom of the class then got her crap together before boards. I havent seen her in a long time and this was in the early 2000s
 
dushash said:
I apologize for off-topic, but why is PC considered as something "bad" or something to be ashamed of? I mean, IM for one is a very nice field to go to (at least I'm planning to go there lol).
I can explain why exactly I consider it really good:
1. 3 year residency and then average salary $220-240K is not that bad if you are smart with money
2. It's IMHO much better lifestyle, no night calls or emergencies (for the most part I mean), just relatively simple, easy job (meaning no surprises)
3. Most places adopted week on/week off schedule - which is awesome if you ask me, work 1 week, do whatever you want next week and so on
4. Some opportunity to specialize later if you still feel like it (tho I'm not sure if that's common for Internists to specialize after been working in IM for years)
5. Relatevly non compettitve and has more positions across country in every Hospital - so better chance to end up in program and place of your first choice
For someone who is not aiming to the very top and appreciates good lifestyle and maybe has family and kids and wants to put less stress on family and have some options to choose location (all this relocations and stress etc) - I think this is as good as it gets
Am I missing something here? MS1 here, so maybe I'm too naive? lol
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No, you're not missing anything at all. Fantastic post actually. IM is nothing to be "ashamed of"


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Alienman52 said:
No, you're not missing anything at all. Fantastic post actually. IM is nothing to be "ashamed of"


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To be quite honest if you match as anything it's nothing to be ashamed of I'm so sick of people putting down people that matching into family, not everybody wants to be an ortho .


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Dr.Jekyll75 said:
To be quite honest if you match as anything it's nothing to be ashamed of I'm so sick of people putting down people that matching into family, not everybody wants to be an ortho .


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Preach
 
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Dr.Jekyll75 said:
She never told me her board scores but she did say she was at the bottom of the class then got her crap together before boards. I haven't seen her in a long time and this was in the early 2000s
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early 2000s was a VERY different time with regards to IM competitiveness. I guarantee Yale hasn't taken a DO in the last 5 years....at least. IM is actually a good example of how the preferences of US MDs is really what is shaping what DOs can and can't get in the match. DOs are matching better than before in fields that have decreased in popularity with US MDs (like anesthesia and radiology) and have seen their opportunities become progressively more limited in fields that are gaining popularity (like IM)
 
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Haha I know it's no one's intention, and maybe it's just me, but I feel like this is turning more and more into a DO hate thread I know the realities of going DO aren't up to par with those of MDs, but even so, matching into anything is something to be proud of! And so is being a doctor no matter the letters behind your name. If one absolutely knows that he/she wants to match a really competitive residency, then try to go MD. Simple as that. Yeah some mid tiers may be closed to DOs, but there are probably many more that are not closed to them.


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Alienman52 said:
Haha I know it's no one's intention, and maybe it's just me, but I feel like this is turning more and more into a DO hate thread I know the realities of going DO aren't up to par with those of MDs, but even so, matching into anything is something to be proud of! And so is being a doctor no matter the letters behind your name. If one absolutely knows that he/she wants to match a really competitive residency, then try to go MD. Simple as that. Yeah some mid tiers may be closed to DOs, but there are probably many more that are not closed to them.


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SDN is really blunt and brutal when it comes to they truth they dont sugar coat it at all. On reddit people are alot more hopeful but thats not how it is in the real world.
 
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Dr.Jekyll75 said:
SDN is really blunt and brutal when it comes to they truth they dont sugar coat it at all. On reddit people are alot more hopeful but thats not how it is in the real world.
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I would strongly concur with SDN's community being very straightforward haha


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