MD vs. DO

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clumpymold

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    Hey fellas!

    I just checked out the DO boards to see what, exactly, a DO is but all the articles are published by a DO. Even the comparisons between an MD and a DO. I'm curious as to what YOUR take on it is, being MD-oriented and all.

    For some reason, I always thought a DO used different treatment methods, no? Are they really equivalent as those articles sort of claim?

    :confused:
     
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      The best advice I can give you is to read up in both the forums and online. DOs are going to be very proDO and MDs are likely to be against them. You have to look through all of the bias opinions for yourself. As far liscensing goes, DOs are free to practice medicine much in the same way as MDs do. However, DOs are wholistically oriented and as such, they tend to enter primary care fields. Also, DOs are known for the practice of OMM or OMT. These are a set of manipulation techniques somewhat similar to physical therapists or chiropractors, but not exactly. Do not compare a DO to a PT or Chiro because they are fully certified physicians and it makes them angry. I hope my rambling helps. Flame on.
       

      WatchingWaiting

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        Every time I write the true difference, I get flamed. In terms of practice rights, being a physcian, having the opportunity to do any specialty if you're good enough, a DO is the same as an MD. The training is very similar, except that DOs have training in "osteopathic manipulation," which several studies have shown most osteopaths don't actually use in practice. DOs have a separate licensing exam, the COMLEX.

        The important difference, however, is that the average DO MCAT/GPA combo is a 25/3.3, while the average MD MCAT/GPA combo is a 30/3.6. Most DOs, however, get really pissed off when you cite this essential difference and say, "It's only a couple points on some stupid test," or "It doesn't reflect on how good a doctor I'll be," or "I got into ten M.D. schools, but I loved the osteopathic philosophy."
         

        drlexygoat

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          Originally posted by Gramsci
          they are inferior to MD's, glorified RN's really. i wouldnt use a DO degree to wipe myself.

          Dude, that's sad. Wake up and realize that we're in a medical field with MDs and DOs working side by side, doing the same work, earning the same amount of money, with each being equally prepared to treat patients.

          MD is not for everybody. Some choose DO because they like OMM. Some go DO (let's be honest) because they weren't able to get into MD. Others go DO because most DO schools send hoards of people into the primary care field and have a good track record of doing so. Some students go DO because of slight differences in teaching methodologies. Whatever the reason for going DO, if they graduate from med school, they have the same responsibilities and preparedness that and MD would have.

          The DO articles on the forum the OP talked about are well-written and pretty factual, in my opinion. They give a good overview of what to expect from a osteopathic school.

          *steps off soap box*
           

          meanderson

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            Heck, everyone has to sidestep the issue.

            There are no big differences between DO's and MD's. DO's have a small amount of traning in manual medicine, and a very small % of DO's actually use this in their practice. DO's and MD's both have the same practice rights and are reimbursed by insurance companies in the same way.

            There are significant differences between many allopathic and osteopathic admissions criteria. Because of this, many borderline candidates apply to both osteopathic and allopathic schools. As a DO graduate it is possible to match into an allopathic residency(and most do), but you will be at a disadvantage compared to similarly qualified allopathic graduates. As a DO you will be more attractive come match time than american IMG's however.

            I think that is a pretty blunt answer which is fair to both sides.
             

            Adapt

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              Originally posted by clumpymold
              Hey fellas!

              I just checked out the DO boards to see what, exactly, a DO is but all the articles are published by a DO. Even the comparisons between an MD and a DO. I'm curious as to what YOUR take on it is, being MD-oriented and all.

              For some reason, I always thought a DO used different treatment methods, no? Are they really equivalent as those articles sort of claim?

              :confused:
              Hey clump,

              Glad to see you have found DO (an OD is an optometrist). Every few weeks a post like this occurs. This is because slowly knowledge is getting around to who DOs are.

              When you apply, if you want to stay in CA but don't have as good of stats, you should seriously look at WesternU/COMP right here in southern CA.

              It's not as competitive as the UCs yet you still will graduate as a physician, they do their rotations alongside UCI, USC, Loma Linda and UCLA at much of the same hospitals, and you will find most of the graduates doing their residencies throughout southern CA including the residencies at UCI, UCSD, USC, and everywhere else.

              For COMP, the average MCAT is a 27 and gpa is a 3.4.

              I will be attending this school if I don't get into LLU. There are people who choose DO over MD for various reasons. Hope that helps out some. :)
               

              Supadupafly

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                It's far better to get the MD. With an OD, your practice will be somewhat limited. An optometrist spends more time prescribing glasses than working with medical problems. As an opthalmologist, you'll be much better trained to handle any problem that comes up related to the eyes. You'll probably also be paid more.:laugh: :smuggrin:
                 
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                Freeeedom!

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                  Here is bluntness...if you use statistics and numbers to compare and qualify ALL students...then compare the numbers at Morehouse, Meharry, and Howard and then make your conclusions.
                  Statistics are always used by those with great numbers to validate reasons for disliking those with lesser numbers.
                   

                  WatchingWaiting

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                    Originally posted by Freeeedom!
                    Here is bluntness...if you use statistics and numbers to compare and qualify ALL students...then compare the numbers at Morehouse, Meharry, and Howard and then make your conclusions.
                    Statistics are always used by those with great numbers to validate reasons for disliking those with lesser numbers.

                    It's not really an issue of disliking. The whole med school path is generally competitive, and many DOs are in denial about the fact that they were less than competitive MD applicants and, hence, had to go DO. I find it annoying when people deny that this is the reason for most people going DO instead of MD and instead proclaim it was their love of the philosophy or some other phony reason. Most MD applicants aren't in denial about the relative stratification in med schools. When you hear Joe Smith is at Johns Hopkins and Joe Bloggs is at Drexel, you don't hear MDs claiming that they are both equally qualified and motivated individuals. And you wouldn't hear the Drexel student claiming he went there over Hopkins because he liked Drexel's philosophy more than Hopkins'. If he did, he would get laughed at and mocked, whereas the DOs put out bogus, patently false arguments about their choices and expect us to take them seriously.
                     

                    Freeeedom!

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                      You are avoiding the issue.
                      I chose only an osteopathic school, primarily because I was a PT prior to medschool and I wanted to learn manipulation. Yep, there were med students in my class who wanted MD...but later found it didn't matter as they matched into a fantastic residencies later. With that being said, many people try to find programs that best fit their personalities and are the best for them...in other words, the best programs they can get. If they like CCOM better than Chicago Med School, then go to CCOM. I find this to be purely a premed issue.
                      Regardless, this has been a numbers talk and if numbers are your only way of quantifying quality, then tell me your opinion of the poor numbers at Howard and the previously mentioned schools.
                       

                      WatchingWaiting

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                        Originally posted by Freeeedom!
                        You are avoiding the issue.
                        I chose only an osteopathic school, primarily because I was a PT prior to medschool and I wanted to learn manipulation. Yep, there were med students in my class who wanted MD...but later found it didn't matter as they matched into a fantastic residencies later. I find this to be purely a premed issue.
                        Regardless, if numbers are your only way of quantifying quality, then tell me your opinion of the poor numbers at Howard and the previously mentioned schools.

                        I didn't argue that numbers are the only way of expressing quality. If you look at involvement in research, community service, and the like, I think you'll find that your top-10 school MD student has had excellent and compelling experiences that are at least as good as the average MD or average DO student, and likely a bit better, esp. in the research department.

                        It is pretty well known that URMs have lower MCATs and GPAs than white and Asian applicants. Hence, schools that are majority URM have substantially lower average MCAT/GPAs than schools that are minority URM. What is your question? Are URMs less qualified applicants overall? We wouldn't need affirmative action if this were not the case. Are your stats lower than the average accepted MDs because your ancestors were on a reservation or sharecroppers or migrant farm workers?
                         

                        Adapt

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                          Originally posted by WatchingWaiting
                          And you wouldn't hear the Drexel student claiming he went there over Hopkins because he liked Drexel's philosophy more than Hopkins'. If he did, he would get laughed at and mocked, whereas the DOs put out bogus, patently false arguments about their choices and expect us to take them seriously.
                          There is a flaw in your argument. Drexel and Hopkins are both MD schools. As such, they both have the same philosophy and teach the same thing. It is true that Drexel is not on the same level as Hopkins.

                          DO schools are different than MD schools due to their philosophy and OMM. OMM takes up a good amount of time in DO schools, which is not taught in MD schools. Because these two differences exist, why wouldn't there be people that are gung-ho about learning manipulation or into a holistic view of practicing medicine.

                          That is not to say that DO schools are on the same level as Hopkins, and I think almost all DO students would admit this. However, I think as Freeedom said, many DO schools are on the same level as a lot of the lower tier MD schools including Meharry, Howard, Drexel, and other MD schools when you look at both the average stats of applicants as well as match lists.

                          The statement that DOs are MD rejects is a generalization. Much like most generalizations, just because some are doesn't mean every single DO is. There are many reasons people may choose to go to a DO school, and you should think twice about stereotyping and calling their reasons a "bogus" argument.
                           

                          moo

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                            I think DO students tend to forget that there are MD students who are just as compassionate and driven to be doctors as DOs. I look around my class and I see amazing people who are (gasp!) non-traditionals, who've worked in other careers, etc. The difference is that these people also have better numbers. I get annoyed when DO students on this board bash MDs saying we're not as compassionate, not as driven, etc. DO schools don't have a monopoly on producing compassionate doctors. And no, please don't say DO students learn more than us. MD curriculums also stress biostatistics, behavioral science, research techniques, etc. Are all of us going to use all this stuff? No, but they're tools in our "toolbox", just like how manipulation is in your toolbox.
                             

                            Freeeedom!

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                              Originally posted by WatchingWaiting
                              It is pretty well known that URMs have lower MCATs and GPAs than white and Asian applicants. Hence, schools that are majority URM have substantially lower average MCAT/GPAs than schools that are minority URM. What is your question? Are URMs less qualified applicants overall? We wouldn't need affirmative action if this were not the case. Are your stats lower than the average accepted MDs because your ancestors were on a reservation or sharecroppers or migrant farm workers? [/B]

                              Ok, so to follow your logic...
                              DO schools are not as good because their entrance numbers are lower.
                              URM's (whatever double speak that is) have lower numbers.

                              Thus, if the same logic applies, much like DO schools, those that attend Howard, Morehouse etc are less competative students.

                              And if your conclusion applies to DO schools, then students at Howard would prefer to go to Hopkins if they were only accepted there. (Hopkins apparently being the gold standard)

                              Furthermore, those that score poorly MUST be from a reservation or migrant farm workers...otherwise, low score are NOT acceptable...what??
                              Nice double speak and avoidance of the issue.
                               

                              meanderson

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                                Originally posted by Freeeedom!


                                Thus, if the same logic applies, much like DO schools, those that attend Howard, Morehouse etc are less competative students.

                                And if your conclusion applies to DO schools, then students at Howard would prefer to go to Hopkins if they were only accepted there. (Hopkins apparently being the gold standard)

                                .

                                Would students at Howard have gone to Hopkins if they could have? I'm guessing.......YES!! Just like students that go to osteopathic school would have preferred going to their state allpathic school. Of course a small % of each group would rather go to Howard or a DO school, but please don't try and argue that most DO students didn't even consider applying to allopathic schools or gave up acceptances at allopathic schools. A few do, but most don't.

                                Also, let's talk averages instead of isolate a few schools. You can't compare PCOM's or KCOM's scores to Howard. If you want to compare those schools relative to allopathic schools, do so to Columbia and WashU. Note how DO advocates never mention some of the DO schools that have a few mcat averages around 21 or so. And neither do allopathic students, because they don't represent the average osteopathic matriculant. Yet on every thread comparing allopathic vs. osteopathic admissions standards, the same 5% of allopathic schools are mentioned. I'm sure you realize that these schools have mission statements that cater to a very small group of applicants(either URM or geographic) and don't represent the average allopathic matriculant.

                                Someone mentioned drexel not having a better match list than osteopathic schools. This isn't true. It isn't even close to true. Compare NYCOM's match list(which was rated by some DO students as being extraordinary last year) to Drexel and it isn't particularly close. A ton of anesth. in NYCOM's match list, but that's only a moderately competitive field, and furthermore the program list didn't include a lot of top programs. Look at the IM matches at an allopathic lower tier private like Drexel and NYMC and then compare to an IM match list for osteopathic schools.....it's not close.

                                I'm not trying to encourage anyone to wait a year if you get rejected from allopathic schools rather than go osteopathic. That's something that only each applicant can decide. But the propaganda put forth by osteopathic advocates is similar to that put forth by carribean advocates, with the exception of OMT principles:

                                1) You'll be a physician with full practice rights
                                2) There is a chance you will get a moderately competitive residency if you work hard

                                Note that I would VASTLY prefer going to an osteopathic school than SGU, but if you work hard either way you will become a physician. Same as with osteopathic vs. allopathic schools. But I'm not going to argue that osteopaths are just as competitive in the match as allopathic graduates, just like I'm not going to argue that I'm going to be just as competitive coming from whichever allopathic school I pick as a similarly qualified candidate from Hopkins. It just doesn't work that way......
                                 

                                premyo2002

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                                  Originally posted by moo
                                  . MD curriculums also stress biostatistics, behavioral science, research techniques, etc. Are all of us going to use all this stuff? No, but they're tools in our "toolbox", just like how manipulation is in your toolbox.


                                  How often are you going to run an ANOVA or western blot in front of a patient with chronic back pain?

                                  If you choose to use OMM (OMT) i?m sure it is a very useful tool: it's another option to help. I?m not sure, I?m only an undergrad, but isn't that what doctor's are here for? Don't you want to have every available option in treating your patient? I find it hard to understand why some people view manipulation under such horrible light. Is it because DO schools have lower stats? Try explaining to your patient that there is another option in treating their pain, but it is used by DO's, and they only have an average of 25 on their MCAT while your school had an average of 30. I?m sure that will work out great for you.

                                  I do agree that MD's can be as passionate for medicine as DO's, but it is wrong to knock OMM. I know a professor who teaches OMM to MD's, although they may not use it often, they have that option now.

                                  As a pre-Med student I am open to both programs, I will eventually choose the SCHOOL that is right for me regardless of degree offered. If I think I can get a better education at PIKESVILLE than HOPKINS I will go to Pikesville. And regardless of degree, I will learn OMM, and use it in every applicable situation
                                   

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                                    Instead of arguing semantics and adding fuel to the flame war, people here should read research reports such as the one below that detail how OMT may actually be useful as an extra "tool in the toolbox." Note that the journal in which this article was published is an AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION journal.

                                    Keep in mind that combining research and treatment approaches from allopathic medicine and osteopathic medicine, as well as from other areas of healthcare will ultimately pave the way toward a more synergistic and comprehensive healthcare system that will offer patients a range of evidence-based treatment options. Why should healthcare professionals be at odds?


                                    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2003 Sep;157(9):861-6.

                                    The use of osteopathic manipulative treatment as adjuvant therapy in children with recurrent acute otitis media.

                                    Mills MV, Henley CE, Barnes LL, Carreiro JE, Degenhardt BF.

                                    Department of Pediatrics, Oklahoma State University Center for Health Sciences, Tulsa 74107, USA. [email protected]

                                    OBJECTIVE: To study effects of osteopathic manipulative treatment as an adjuvant therapy to routine pediatric care in children with recurrent acute otitis media (AOM). STUDY DESIGN: Patients 6 months to 6 years old with 3 episodes of AOM in the previous 6 months, or 4 in the previous year, who were not already surgical candidates were placed randomly into 2 groups: one receiving routine pediatric care, the other receiving routine care plus osteopathic manipulative treatment. Both groups received an equal number of study encounters to monitor behavior and obtain tympanograms. Clinical status was monitored with review of pediatric records. The pediatrician was blinded to patient group and study outcomes, and the osteopathic physician was blinded to patient clinical course. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: We monitored frequency of episodes of AOM, antibiotic use, surgical interventions, various behaviors, and tympanometric and audiometric performance. RESULTS: A total of 57 patients, 25 intervention patients and 32 control patients, met criteria and completed the study. Adjusting for the baseline frequency before study entry, intervention patients had fewer episodes of AOM (mean group difference per month, -0.14 [95% confidence interval, -0.27 to 0.00]; P =.04), fewer surgical procedures (intervention patients, 1; control patients, 8; P =.03), and more mean surgery-free months (intervention patients, 6.00; control patients, 5.25; P =.01). Baseline and final tympanograms obtained by the audiologist showed an increased frequency of more normal tympanogram types in the intervention group, with an adjusted mean group difference of 0.55 (95% confidence interval, 0.08 to 1.02; P =.02). No adverse reactions were reported. CONCLUSIONS: The results of this study suggest a potential benefit of osteopathic manipulative treatment as adjuvant therapy in children with recurrent AOM; it may prevent or decrease surgical intervention or antibiotic overuse.
                                     
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                                    Freeeedom!

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                                      Here is what I find annoying.
                                      1. avoidance of the issue
                                      2. avoidance of the issue
                                      3. avoidance of the issue

                                      First there is a smart guy stating..."well obviously DO programs are weaker, look at their numbers". Then when I state that if you place the same critical eye on all schools, then would you back off if you raplaced "DO program" with "Howard" in your statement...political hot potato EH?

                                      Listen, go to the school that fits your style and personality. Don't be arrogant enough to think that the best doctors come out of the best schools...that if ridiculous. Furthermore, don't be arrogant enough to think that residency programs look at school alone when matching. Listen, I have been on the committee choosing residents and it is a bit more complex than that. I can tell you we ranked a nice percentage of DO's higher than some "upper teir"MD students on our ROL. Why? It just worked out that way...go to school where you will succeed and grow (if that means Kirksville and not Wash U) then do it.
                                      I am not necessarily a DO advocate, yep I went to an Osteopathic Program, but I wanted to learn manipulation. It has NOT hindered my career...that is what matters.
                                      Bottom line: who cares what the numbers say, if you work hard and kick ass in med school...you can go anywhere you want for residency and in your career;)
                                       

                                      Adapt

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                                        Originally posted by meanderson
                                        Compare NYCOM's match list(which was rated by some DO students as being extraordinary last year) to Drexel and it isn't particularly close. A ton of anesth. in NYCOM's match list, but that's only a moderately competitive field, and furthermore the program list didn't include a lot of top programs. Look at the IM matches at an allopathic lower tier private like Drexel and NYMC and then compare to an IM match list for osteopathic schools.....it's not close.

                                        Ok, you brought it up so let us compare. First I will say that IM is easier to get into than anesthesiology. IM is in primary care and anesthesiology is a specialty. Most would agree with that.

                                        The following are the NYCOM and NYMC 2003 match list respectively. Some things to look at:

                                        In anesthesiology, NYCOM-26 and NYMC-14
                                        In EM, NYCOM-16 and NYMC-14
                                        In IM, NYCOM-41 and NYMC-52
                                        In PM&R, NYCOM-8 and NYMC-7
                                        In general surgery, NYCOM-7 and NYMC 16

                                        As you can see, the two are comparable with NYCOM beating out NYMC in some areas while NYMC beats out NYCOM in others.

                                        ---NYCOM 2003 Matchlist---
                                        Anesthesia: 26
                                        Cleveland Clinic
                                        Einstein, NY (3)
                                        Univ of Chicago
                                        Univ of Wisconsin
                                        Yale
                                        NYU
                                        Suny Downstate (5)
                                        Maimonides, NY
                                        Metroheath, OH
                                        Temple, Philadelphia, PA
                                        Univ of Mass, MA
                                        UConn, CT
                                        Univ Buffalo, NY
                                        Metrohealth Med Ctr (OH)
                                        Stony Brook, NY
                                        Westchester Med Ctr, NY (NYMC)

                                        Emergency Medicine:
                                        Beth Israel, New York, NY
                                        LIJ/ Einstein, NY (2)
                                        North Shore Univ Hospitals, Manhasset, NY
                                        Univ at Buffalo (2)
                                        Newark Beth Israel, NJ
                                        Albert Einstein, Philadelphia, PA
                                        St. Barnabus, NY (6)
                                        St. Barnabus, NY EM/IM Combined
                                        UMDNJ, Kennedy Memorial (EM/IM Combined)

                                        Family Practice:
                                        Good Samaritan, NY
                                        New York United Hospital
                                        Mercy Hospital, PA
                                        St. Claires, NY, NY
                                        Union Hospital, NJ (2)
                                        Northside Hospital, FL
                                        St. Barnabus, NY (3)
                                        St. Josephs, Syracuse NY
                                        Overlook Hospital, NJ (2)
                                        Somerset Med Ctr, NJ
                                        UMDNJ (2)
                                        Univ of Pittsburgh

                                        General Surgery:
                                        Doctor's Hospital, OH
                                        Stony Brook, NY
                                        Maimonides Med Ctr, NY
                                        Nassau Univ Med Ctr, NY
                                        St. Vincents, NY, NY
                                        Wyckoff Heights Med Ctr, NY, NY
                                        St. Barnabus, NY

                                        OTO-Facial/Plastic Surgery
                                        Northeast Regional Medical Ctr, MO

                                        Internal Medicine:
                                        Beth Israel, New York, NY (4)
                                        George Washington Univ, DC
                                        Hershey, Penn State
                                        Kaiser Perm, CA
                                        Lennox Hill, NY (2)
                                        Loma Linda, CA
                                        LIJ, NY
                                        Mt. Sinai School of Medicine, NY (2)
                                        North Shore Univ Hospitals, Manhasset (2)
                                        New York Hospital, NY, NY (6)
                                        St Josephs, AZ
                                        SUNY Stony Brook, NY
                                        Univ of Southern California
                                        Univ of Tennessee, Nashville
                                        UMNDNJ- Newark (2)
                                        UMDNJ- Robert Wood (4)
                                        Univ of Mass, Worcester, MA
                                        Westchester Medical Ctr, NY
                                        Winthrop Univ Hospital, NY (6)
                                        Yale University, New Haven CT (2)

                                        Neurology:
                                        Albany Med, NY
                                        LIJ, NY
                                        North Shore Univ Hospital, Manhasset, NY
                                        UMDNJ- Newark

                                        NeuroSurgery:
                                        Doctors Hospital, OH (2)

                                        OB/Gyn
                                        Albany Med (3)
                                        Beth Israel, NY, NY
                                        MCP Hahnemann, Philadelphia, PA
                                        Michigan State, Lansing, MI
                                        St Francis, CT
                                        St. Vincents, NY, NY
                                        Univ Buffalo, NY

                                        Optho:
                                        Univ Buffalo, NY

                                        Orthopedic Surgery:
                                        St. Vincents, New York, NY (NYMC)

                                        Pathology:
                                        St. Lukes-Roosevelt, NY
                                        SUNY, Syracuse, NY

                                        Peds:
                                        LIJ, NY
                                        Good Samaritan, NY (2)
                                        Stony Brook (3)
                                        Suny Downstate (3)
                                        Univ Buffalo
                                        Winthrop Univ Hospital (3)

                                        PM&R:
                                        Harvard
                                        Einstein, NY
                                        LIJ, NY (2)
                                        Mt Sinai School of Medicine, NY
                                        NYU School of Medicine
                                        St. Vincents, NY, NY
                                        Univ of Michigan, Ann Arbor

                                        Psychiatry:
                                        LIJ, NY
                                        Maimonides, NY
                                        St. Lukes-Roosevelt- Columbia (2)
                                        Stony Brook (2)
                                        Thomas Jefferson, Philadelphia, PA
                                        Univ of Mass

                                        Radiology (Diagnostic)
                                        MCP Hahnemann
                                        Harlem Hospital, NY, NY
                                        Nassau Univ Med Ctr, NY
                                        St. Barnabus, NY, NY
                                         

                                        Adapt

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                                          ---NYMC 2003 Matchlist---

                                          Anesthesiology
                                          B I Deaconess Med Ctr-MA 1
                                          Boston University Medical Center 1
                                          Brigham & Womens Hosp-MA 2
                                          Cleveland Clinic Fdn-OH 1
                                          Mt Sinai Hospital-NY 1
                                          NYP Hosp-Colum Presby-NY 1
                                          NYP Hosp-NY Cornell-NY 1
                                          NYU School Of Medicine 1
                                          St Vincents Hosp-NY 1
                                          SUNY HSC Brooklyn-NY 1
                                          U Southern California 1
                                          UMDNJ-New Jersey Med-Newark 1
                                          Univ. TX Southwestern 1


                                          Anesthesiology Total 14


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Emergency Medicine
                                          Brooklyn Hospital-Caledonian 1
                                          Brown Univ-Rhode Island Hospital 1
                                          Einstein/Jacobi Med Ctr-NY 3
                                          Loma Linda Univ. Med. Center 1
                                          Mayo Graduate School of Med. 1
                                          N.Y.U. Medical Center 1
                                          Orlando Regional Medical Ctr. 1
                                          St. Lukes-Roosevelt Hosp. Ctr. 1
                                          Stanford Affiliated Hospital 1
                                          SUNY HSC Brooklyn-NY 1
                                          Univ. of CA-Davis Med. Ctr. Sact 1
                                          Wayne State Univ./Detroit Med. Ctr 1


                                          Emergency Medicine Total 14


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Family Practice
                                          Camp Pendleton Naval Hospital 1
                                          Catholic Medical Center 1
                                          Kaiser Permanente Woodland - CA 1
                                          NCC MGMC-Andrews AFB Bethesda 1
                                          San Jose Medical Center 1
                                          Scripps Memorial Hospital 1
                                          St. Josephs Medical Center 1
                                          Tacoma Family Medicine 1
                                          Univ. of CA-Davis Med. Ctr. Sact 1
                                          Univ. of Minnesota Hosp. & Clinic 1


                                          Family Practice Total 10


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Internal Medicine
                                          Boston U Medical Center-MA 2
                                          Brown U Int Med Res 1
                                          Greenwich Hospital 1
                                          Johns Hopkins U/Bayview Med Ctr. 1
                                          Kaiser Perman. Med. Ctr. LA/CA 2
                                          Lenox Hill Hospital 1
                                          Long Island Jewish Med. Ctr. 6
                                          Massachusetts General Hosp. 1
                                          Metropolitan Hosp Ctr- NYMC 1
                                          Montefiore/Einstein Affil. Hosps 5
                                          National Naval Medical Center 1
                                          Naval Medical Center-San Diego 2
                                          New England Medical Ctr. Hosp. 1
                                          North Shore University Hosp. 2
                                          NY Med. Coll. - West. Co. Med. C 2
                                          Olive View Medical Center 1
                                          Presbyterian Hospital - N.Y.C. 1
                                          Santa Clara Valley Med. Ctr. 2
                                          St. Vincents Hosp - Manh 4
                                          St. Vincents Med Ctr- SI 1
                                          Stony Brook Teaching Hosps. 1
                                          Strong Memorial Hospital 1
                                          Temple University Hospital 1
                                          The Mount Sinai Hospital 1
                                          The Staten Island U Hospital 1
                                          U.C.L.A. Medical Center 1
                                          U.C.S.D. Medical Center 1
                                          Univ. of CA-Davis Med. Ctr. Sact 1
                                          Univ. of CA-Irvine Medical Center 1
                                          Univ. of Colorado Sch. of Med. 1
                                          Univ. of FL Med. Ctr.-Shands Hosp 1
                                          Wake Forest Baptist Med Ctr. 1
                                          Yale-New Haven Hospital 2


                                          Internal Medicine Total 52


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Medicine-Pediatrics
                                          Baystate Medical Center Inc. 1


                                          Medicine-Pediatrics Total 1


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Neurology
                                          New York Medical College 1
                                          U California - Davis 1
                                          U California - LA 1


                                          Neurology Total 3


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Ob/Gyn
                                          Lenox Hill Hospital 1
                                          New England Medical Ctr. Hosp. 1
                                          Ochsner Clinic Foundation-LA 1
                                          San Antonio Uniformed Serv. Hlth 1


                                          Ob/Gyn Total 4


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Ophthalmology
                                          New York Eye & Ear Infirmary 1
                                          New York Medical College 1
                                          New York University Medical C 1


                                          Ophthalmology Total 3


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Pathology
                                          Univ. of Southern CA Med. Sch. 1


                                          Pathology Total 1


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Pediatrics
                                          Brown Univ-Rhode Island Hospital 2
                                          Childrens Hosp. Natl. Med. Ctr. 1
                                          Childrens Hospital Oakland 2
                                          Childrens Hospital of LA 1
                                          Long Island Jewish Med. Ctr. 4
                                          Med Coll Wisconsin Aff Hosps 1
                                          Montefiore/Einstein Affil. Hosps 3
                                          N.Y.U. Medical Center 1
                                          NY Med. Coll. - West. Co. Med. C 1
                                          Presbyterian Hospital - N.Y.C. 1
                                          St. Christophers Hospital 1
                                          Strong Memorial Hospital 1
                                          The Mount Sinai Hospital 2
                                          The New York Hospital 1
                                          Thomas Jeff. U/Dupont Children 1
                                          White Memorial Medical Ctr. 1
                                          Yale-New Haven Hospital 1


                                          Pediatrics Total 25


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Physical Medicine & Rehab.
                                          Harvard/Spaulding-MA 1
                                          National Rehab Hosp-DC 1
                                          NYP Hosp-Colum Presby-NY 1
                                          NYU School Of Medicine 1
                                          Sinai Hosp-Baltimore-MD 1
                                          UMDNJ-New Jersey Med-Newark 1
                                          VA Greater LA Hlth Sys-CA 1


                                          Physical Medicine & Rehab. Total 7


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Psychiatry
                                          Boston U Medical Center-MA 1
                                          Brown Univ-Rhode Island Hospital 1
                                          Georgetown University Hospital 1
                                          Harvard Longwood Psychiatry 1
                                          Maine Medical Center 1
                                          St. Vincents Hosp - Manh 1
                                          The New York Hospital 1
                                          UMDNJ-Robert W. Johnson Med. Sch 1
                                          Univ. Hlth. Ctr. of Pittsburgh 1


                                          Psychiatry Total 9


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Radiation Oncology
                                          SUNY Upstate Medical University 1


                                          Radiation Oncology Total 1


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Radiology - Diagnostic
                                          Beth Israel Med Ctr-NY 1
                                          Brigham & Womens Hosp-MA 1
                                          Duke Univ Med Ctr-NC 2
                                          Einstein/Jacobi Med Ctr-NY 2
                                          Henry Ford Hospital 1
                                          Indiana Univ Sch Of Med 1
                                          Loma Linda University-CA 1
                                          Long Island Jewish-NY 3
                                          Maimonides Med Ctr-NY 1
                                          Morristown Mem Hosp-NJ 1
                                          Mt Auburn Hospital-MA 1
                                          N Shore U-Manhasset-NY 1
                                          New England Med Ctr-MA 1
                                          Norwalk Hosp-CT 1
                                          NYP Hosp-NY Cornell-NY 1
                                          NYU School Of Medicine 1
                                          Santa Barbara Cottage Hosp-CA 1
                                          St Lukes-Roosevelt-NY 1
                                          Univ of Connecticut 1
                                          Westchester Med Ctr-NY 1
                                          Winthrop-Univ Hosp-NY 1


                                          Radiology - Diagnostic Total 25


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Surgery - General
                                          Beth Israel Deaconess Med Ctr 1
                                          Boston U Medical Center-MA 1
                                          Cabrini Medical Center 1
                                          Hospital of St. Raphael-CT 1
                                          Loma Linda Univ. Med. Center 2
                                          N.Y.U. Medical Center 1
                                          NY Med. Coll. - West. Co. Med. C 1
                                          San Antonio Uniformed Serv. Hlth 1
                                          St. Lukes-Roosevelt Hosp. Ctr. 1
                                          St. Vincents Hosp - Manh 2
                                          U.C.L.A. Medical Center 1
                                          U.C.S.D. Medical Center 1
                                          UC San Francisco-Fresno-CA 1
                                          Univ. of CA-Davis Med. Ctr. Sact 1


                                          Surgery - General Total 16


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Surgery - Orthopedic Surgery
                                          Boston U Medical Center-MA 1
                                          NY Med. Coll. - West. Co. Med. C 1
                                          Stony Brook Teaching Hosps. 1
                                          SUNY HSC Brooklyn-NY 1


                                          Surgery - Orthopedic Surgery Total 4


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Surgery - Otorhinolaryngology
                                          SUNY - Stony Brook 1


                                          Surgery - Otorhinolaryngology Total 1


                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Surgery - Urology
                                          University of Nebraska 1


                                          Surgery - Urology Total 1
                                           

                                          moo

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                                            Originally posted by premyo2002
                                            How often are you going to run an ANOVA or western blot in front of a patient with chronic back pain?

                                            If you choose to use OMM (OMT) i?m sure it is a very useful tool: it's another option to help. I?m not sure, I?m only an undergrad, but isn't that what doctor's are here for? Don't you want to have every available option in treating your patient? I find it hard to understand why some people view manipulation under such horrible light. Is it because DO schools have lower stats? Try explaining to your patient that there is another option in treating their pain, but it is used by DO's, and they only have an average of 25 on their MCAT while your school had an average of 30. I?m sure that will work out great for you.

                                            I do agree that MD's can be as passionate for medicine as DO's, but it is wrong to knock OMM. I know a professor who teaches OMM to MD's, although they may not use it often, they have that option now.

                                            As a pre-Med student I am open to both programs, I will eventually choose the SCHOOL that is right for me regardless of degree offered. If I think I can get a better education at PIKESVILLE than HOPKINS I will go to Pikesville. And regardless of degree, I will learn OMM, and use it in every applicable situation

                                            I'm just saying that MD schools focus more on research. This is a fact. My point is that although not all MD students choose to do research, a minority of us do, and the ones that do contribute greatly to medicine (albeit not at the fundamental patient level), just like how OMT/OMM would to an individual patient.

                                            I'm not against DOs or OMT/OMM. I'm just saying that DO students shouldn't knock MD schools either (the typical aoa rhetoric is "we learn everything they do PLUS omt"). It goes both ways. DOs want respect from their MD colleagues but implying that DO schools are superior (by virtue of their learning OMT) is not going to impress a lot of MD people. The fact is, DO and MD schools teach different things, and you should accept that. (I'd never say that doctors are smarter than lawyers because we learn different things.)
                                             

                                            DrDad

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                                              Just my 2cents....

                                              People never cease to amaze me.... saying that a gross minority of people would choose DO if they had the option between the two is like saying that if you dont get an MD you cannot research.... both are preposterous and unproveable... fact is it depends as one poster said on WHAT YOU NEED from school not the other way around....

                                              Really liberal thought for you.... lets interview the schools we attend instead of being solely interviewed and picked by them....

                                              If you never applied DO because of desire, so be it.... but dont be a close minded individual and be unaccepting....

                                              after all the NIH, IHS, AF, NVY, ARMY, etc. think we all (both DO and MD) are pretty darn sharp and wants us all without regard to which degree...

                                              DrDad
                                              An open-minded individual, can you say the same thing about yourself?
                                               

                                              meanderson

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                                                Originally posted by Slickness
                                                Ok, you brought it up so let us compare. First I will say that IM is easier to get into than anesthesiology. IM is in primary care and anesthesiology is a specialty. Most would agree with that.

                                                The following are the NYCOM and NYMC 2003 match list respectively. Some things to look at:

                                                In anesthesiology, NYCOM-26 and NYMC-14
                                                In EM, NYCOM-16 and NYMC-14
                                                In IM, NYCOM-41 and NYMC-52
                                                In PM&R, NYCOM-8 and NYMC-7
                                                In general surgery, NYCOM-7 and NYMC 16

                                                As you can see, the two are comparable with NYCOM beating out NYMC in some areas while NYMC beats out NYCOM in others.



                                                Where did NYCOM beat out NYMC? Anesthesiology isn't a particulary tough match for any american grad, DO or MD.

                                                The big difference in these two match lists are:

                                                1) NYMC matched 25 into radiology. NYCOM 4. Yes I know that certain classes lean one way or the other and a lot of this may have to do with preferance, but 25 to 4? And let's just say that the nycom rads matches...ummm..... aren't exactly at top 20 programs. In terms of competitiveness, radiology > anesthesiology.

                                                2) In noncompetitive to moderately competitive matches, it's more important to look at the programs. I would do this for IM, neurology, general surgery, peds, anesthesiology, etc. And I think it is safe to say that the programs NYMC students matched into in most of these specialties are a little better than NYCOM's. Look at general surgery....NYMC is putting people at some top programs and UC programs. NYCOM doesn't.

                                                If someone were to put these match lists against each other, take the school names off the list, and pick the "more competitive" one, I don't think it would be a tough decision. But that's not what a lot of people care about. It's just foolish to say that DO match lists are as good as MD match lists. Doesn't mean you can't get what you want as a DO; it just means that you will be at a comparative disadvantage. But hey.......that's not the end of the world.
                                                 

                                                Adapt

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                                                  Meanderson, I can post other DO schools that have matched students in good spots. At Western half the students match at many of the UCs including UCI, UCLA, UC Davis, UC San Diego, and what not. Even if it may be in internal medicine or family practice, they still match there.

                                                  After looking at both lists, I don't see how you can still say it's "foolish" that DO school match lists don't compare to MD ones. Are we looking at different match lists?

                                                  Optho in itself is a competitive residency. The NYCOM student entering an optho residency at Univ of Buffalo optho is not as good as the NYMC student entering at NYMC optho?

                                                  Perhaps, you made up your mind already but to those who haven't, the evidence clearly shows that you can do what you want as a DO. Match lists don't lie.
                                                   

                                                  JayMiranti

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                                                    Well, i believe that it has to be true that only a small percentage of individuals, if given the option, would choose DO over MD.

                                                    If this werent true, then the numbers of MD students wouldnt be higher than DO students.

                                                    And to Freedom up above annoyed from people "avoiding the issue"

                                                    I think that your question has been answered, if you replaced "howard" with "a DO school" I think everyone agrees that the statement is still true.

                                                    And sure, scores, grades, and your school name are all arbitrary to some degree in determining the quality of the physician in the end.

                                                    But just like in everything else, for whatever reason, it is possible that you will be given less opportunities if you are a less "competitive" applicant. (even if your a better doctor)

                                                    And that fact alone, i think, persuades people to choose MD over DO. Shallow and Unjust? Sure, but real at the same time.
                                                     

                                                    clumpymold

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                                                      Originally posted by Supadupafly
                                                      It's far better to get the MD. With an OD, your practice will be somewhat limited. An optometrist spends more time prescribing glasses than working with medical problems. As an opthalmologist, you'll be much better trained to handle any problem that comes up related to the eyes. You'll probably also be paid more.:laugh: :smuggrin:


                                                      Hahaha!!! I can't believe I did that. I'm usually pretty good about my typos. Tsk tsk tsk.

                                                      Anyway, I meant DO and not OD. Pretty funny though.

                                                      I just changed it now.

                                                      I'm surprised at all the responses thus far. Thank you for the great feedback. I posted this thread this morning and it's already at the second page. I guess this is a pretty controversial topic.

                                                      The thing is, I've always wanted an "MD". But that's going to be a horrible reason as to why I'm choosing it over a DO. I also have pretty horrible grades (3.0) and have yet to take the MCAT. I've been out of school for almost 4 years now so that's the reason why my grades were so low. I never had the intention of pursuing medicine. I attended UCSD and earned a B.A. in Economics and a B.S. in Biology. Not sure if that helps any though.

                                                      I guess in a way, aside from the treatment practices, it appears that it's harder to get into an MD school than a DO school. And for me, I just would like to think I'm "better" than that. I know it sounds bad but that's just my logic. I MAY consider DO if I get rejected NUMEROUS times. We'll see. I'll be applying next year and plan to take the MCAT either this August or next April.

                                                      Slickness: Yeah, I've heard of Western. Actually, only yesterday. I spoke to a friend who is currently attending pharmacy school there. So now I know where it is. :p


                                                      FOR ALL FUTURE POSTS:

                                                      Please indicate what you are planning on applying to or have applied to (MD or DO or both) as well as, if possible, your GPA and MCAT scores and reason behind why you're choosing MD and/or DO.

                                                      THANKS YOU!!!

                                                      :D
                                                       
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                                                      clumpymold

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                                                        Originally posted by JKDMed
                                                        If you honestly CHOSE to go to a DO school, then you would be secure enough in your decision to not be constantly baited by the anti-DO ignorance that a lot of people here throw around.

                                                        See, that's what I would think as well. I would think that EVERYBODY on here, with as much time, effort, and work involved in this entire process, would not even embark on this journey unless they knew for SURE that this is what they wanted. So I find it strange that some suggest a DO to those that don't gain acceptance into an MD school (or, which is not as likely, the other way around). Now if you ORIGINALLY decided to choose a DO school, then more power to you.

                                                        I recently "realized" I wanted to pursue medicine (i.e., an MD degree) and if I don't get in, I highly doubt I'll consider a DO degree because that's not what I had planned for myself. I'd feel I'd be settling, if that makes sense.

                                                        Does anyone else feel the same?
                                                         

                                                        DD214_DOC

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                                                          I agree with you. I chose DO a long time ago for various reasons. I had exposure to a few DOs and really admired the way they practiced medicine. I think DOs tend to be more personable and friendly, on average, than MDs.

                                                          However, I do not think this is a product of the schools. I think it is more the personalities that DO schools tend to attract. With slightly lower average admissions standards, they tend to attract people with more experiences and character, those who have made mistakes, and those who spent a little more time developing social skills than studying. In the end, I believe this makes a lot of DOs seem more "down to earth" and "friendly".

                                                          In the end, it doesn't take a terribly intelligent person to be an effective physician, so this whole argument about which system of medicine has the bigger penis is moot. It doesn't mean anything.
                                                           

                                                          Docgeorge

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                                                            Originally posted by matthew45
                                                            Hmmm, the difference between MD and DO...

                                                            Ask yourself, if you had a 3.9 and a 35 which kind of school would you be applying to?

                                                            Then again, they are still doctors

                                                            Hey glad you brought that up. I know of one person in my class with almost those exact stats...she came to my school because she wanted to learn OMM.
                                                             

                                                            clumpymold

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                                                              Originally posted by Docgeorge
                                                              Hey glad you brought that up. I know of one person in my class with almost those exact stats...she came to my school because she wanted to learn OMM.

                                                              I'm sure there are even people with much "better" stats that choose to go the DO route. But it appears, from what I've read, that if you had a person unbiased as to which school to attend, given those statistics, most likely he/she would choose MD. Is that correct or am I mistaken? If I AM correct, why is that so then?

                                                              In other words, I see people choosing DO because either they ORIGINALLY wanted to or they failed to gain acceptance into an MD school. On other hand, those who attend MD schools do so because they originally wanted to go. I have yet to hear of someone attempting to apply to an MD school because they failed to gain acceptance into a DO school. Has anyone?
                                                               

                                                              Adapt

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                                                                Originally posted by clumpymold
                                                                In other words, I see people choosing DO because either they ORIGINALLY wanted to or they failed to gain acceptance into an MD school. On other hand, those who attend MD schools do so because they originally wanted to go. I have yet to hear of someone attempting to apply to an MD school because they failed to gain acceptance into a DO school. Has anyone?
                                                                If I choose to go to DO school, it will be because of location. For me it has nothing to do with the philosophy, OMM, or anything like that. I also will be choosing to turn down 2 MD acceptances.

                                                                I believe that many people overlook this as well. Many nontraditional students have families and cannot easily get up and move. Thus, they choose to attend the DO school that is already close to where they live over MD schools that are far away.

                                                                I don't have a family yet but I didn't like Philly, and that's enough for me to want to stay where I am in CA.
                                                                 

                                                                meanderson

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                                                                  Originally posted by Slickness
                                                                  Meanderson, I can post other DO schools that have matched students in good spots. At Western half the students match at many of the UCs including UCI, UCLA, UC Davis, UC San Diego, and what not. Even if it may be in internal medicine or family practice, they still match there.

                                                                  After looking at both lists, I don't see how you can still say it's "foolish" that DO school match lists don't compare to MD ones. Are we looking at different match lists?

                                                                  Optho in itself is a competitive residency. The NYCOM student entering an optho residency at Univ of Buffalo optho is not as good as the NYMC student entering at NYMC optho?

                                                                  Perhaps, you made up your mind already but to those who haven't, the evidence clearly shows that you can do what you want as a DO. Match lists don't lie.

                                                                  In comparing the optho matches were talking about one slot. I've already said that looking at both match lists neither did a good job putting students into the most competitive 6-7 fields, including optho. The difference in the lists is the quality of the surgery programs(and IM programs to a lesser extent) and the tremendous disparity in radiology matches.

                                                                  I don't want to argue over how big the difference is in those match lists, but I will point out that NYCOM is probably one of the better DO schools and NYMC is generally regarded as a lower tier allopathic school. In a true allopathic vs. osteopathic comparison, we would compare NYMC to that DO school in west virginia, or Kirksville to Hopkins.

                                                                  Your last statement regarding the evidence showing that you can do what you want as a DO. I agree. I've always agreed. But you're going to have to stand out more to match ENT at a quality allopathic university program coming from PCOM than Case Western. That's why the overwhelming majority of people with higher end numbers(above 3.7 and 32) choose to matriculate at allopathic schools.....they want to be in the more advantageous position.

                                                                  I'm certainly not an osteopathic basher. I didn't apply to any osteopathic schools because of several reasons($$ and geographic reasons), but I wouldn't be opposed to attending a DO school. I'm familar with your situation and I would probably do the same thing(take western over Drexel/temple) considering your reasons.
                                                                   

                                                                  Adapt

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                                                                    Originally posted by meanderson
                                                                    Your last statement regarding the evidence showing that you can do what you want as a DO. I agree. I've always agreed. But you're going to have to stand out more to match ENT at a quality allopathic university program coming from PCOM than Case Western. That's why the overwhelming majority of people with higher end numbers(above 3.7 and 32) choose to matriculate at allopathic schools.....they want to be in the more advantageous position.
                                                                    True. I do think it is easier to specialize in a competitive speciality as an MD vs a DO. If you're talking about a primary care field or even a general surgery, EM, or anesthesiology, I would say the differences are minimal.

                                                                    All this doesn't affect me because I'm sticking to FP or IM. :thumbup:
                                                                     

                                                                    clumpymold

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                                                                      Originally posted by Slickness
                                                                      If I choose to go to DO school, it will be because of location. For me it has nothing to do with the philosophy, OMM, or anything like that. I also will be choosing to turn down 2 MD acceptances.

                                                                      I believe that many people overlook this as well. Many nontraditional students have families and cannot easily get up and move. Thus, they choose to attend the DO school that is already close to where they live over MD schools that are far away.

                                                                      I don't have a family yet but I didn't like Philly, and that's enough for me to want to stay where I am in CA.

                                                                      I see but are you comparing acceptances to a DO school in CA vs. an MD school NOT in CA? If you were to get accepted to an MD school near you as well a DO school, which would you choose?

                                                                      May I ask how come you applied to MD schools as well as DO schools? To me, this is such a time-consuming, expensive, and draining process (and these would all probably be HUGE understatements). Why would anyone undertake this trip if they didn't know FOR SURE what they wanted? It seems as if you'll take anything (MD or DO). Is that true?

                                                                      I mean, I already know what I want to specialize in. So I guess it always sounds strange to me that people don't even choose a specialty until like their THIRD year of medical school. I guess I had hoped those that are in medical school realized that this is TRULY what they've always dreamed of doing and they know EXACTLY what they want to do. Or maybe that's just me being as "old" as I am? :confused:
                                                                       

                                                                      Adapt

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                                                                        Originally posted by clumpymold
                                                                        I see but are you comparing acceptances to a DO school in CA vs. an MD school NOT in CA? If you were to get accepted to an MD school near you as well a DO school, which would you choose?

                                                                        May I ask how come you applied to MD schools as well as DO schools? To me, this is such a time-consuming, expensive, and draining process (and these would all probably be HUGE understatements). Why would anyone undertake this trip if they didn't know FOR SURE what they wanted. It seems as if you'll take anything (MD or DO). Is that true?
                                                                        :laugh: You act like it's easy to get an acceptance whether it be MD or DO. Let me tell you it's not. Every year people with good stats get rejected.

                                                                        My stats are decent. I wanted to get it right the first time. I sent my secondaries in to 20 MD schools and 3 DO schools. My priority list of schools went like this.

                                                                        1. In state MD
                                                                        2. COMP
                                                                        3. Out of state MD
                                                                        4. Any other DO

                                                                        To answer your question, if I get into an in-state MD school (a.k.a LLU, since it has been my only CA MD interview) I will go there. However I will be content with reaching number 2.

                                                                        Beginning this process, I thought I wasn't even going to reach number 4 after my first post interview decision was a waitlist from a DO school. :wow:

                                                                        With your gpa of 3.0, you will have a tough road ahead of you trying to get into a US MD school. Your best bet would be a US DO school or Caribbean school unless you can pull off a high MCAT meaning a 32 or above.
                                                                         

                                                                        clumpymold

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                                                                          Originally posted by Slickness
                                                                          :laugh: You act like it's easy to get an acceptance whether it be MD or DO. Let me tell you it's not. Every year people with good stats get rejected.

                                                                          My stats are decent. I wanted to get it right the first time. I sent my secondaries in to 20 MD schools and 3 DO schools. My priority list of schools went like this.

                                                                          1. In state MD
                                                                          2. COMP
                                                                          3. Out of state MD
                                                                          4. Any other DO


                                                                          How did I come off as thinking it's easy to gain acceptance? I WISH!!!

                                                                          What's #2? COMP?

                                                                          Now, see, even you would choose MD over DO. Why is that?

                                                                          Yes, with my GPA, I'm going to have a hard time getting into an MD school. But that's my dream. I'm not going to "settle" for a DO if I don't get into an MD school. That doesn't make sense to me. I'll forever be unhappy or wishing I had tried harder. I still have a few more classes to take to bring my GPA up a tad and I surely hope to do well on the MCAT. I also have some special circumstances that I hope will give me more of an "edge". We'll see. :p
                                                                           

                                                                          Freeeedom!

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                                                                            I think I got my point across...people do choose DO for specific reasons and choose NOT to go MD.
                                                                            Numbers are NOT indicative of student quality (standard deviation of 1)...while they are used to create objective measurement.
                                                                            Being a DO does not necessarily limit your ability to match a competative slot and will likely decrease in the future (actually advantageous in PM&R and FP).
                                                                            We all can get along with the name calling. Remember guys, I am the senior resident at an allopathic school, I think I can judge if there are quality differences in DO vs MD students pretty well WITHOUT seeing the numbers or knowing if they went to Case Western or not:)
                                                                             

                                                                            meanderson

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                                                                              Originally posted by Freeeedom!
                                                                              I think I got my point across...people do choose DO for specific reasons and choose NOT to go MD.
                                                                              Numbers are NOT indicative of student quality (standard deviation of 1)...while they are used to create objective measurement.
                                                                              Being a DO does not necessarily limit your ability to match a competative slot and will likely decrease in the future (actually advantageous in PM&R and FP).
                                                                              We all can get along with the name calling. Remember guys, I am the senior resident at an allopathic school, I think I can judge if there are quality differences in DO vs MD students pretty well WITHOUT seeing the numbers or knowing if they went to Case Western or not:)

                                                                              1) Senior residents should know how to spell competitive. I usually don't comment on spelling but that is the third time you've spelled it wrong.

                                                                              2) "limit your ability"? I don't know.......I don't want to get into a semantics game, but it certainly "decreases your chances". Suppose two candidates wants to match into a quality(but not top 20) allopathic urology program. Both have honors in their rotations, good usmle scores, and solid but not spectactular LOR's from attendings. A Case Western student is going to have a much better chance at matching than a NYCOM student. Take a second and go to the websites for higher end allopathic derm, ent, ortho, and optho programs. You'll notice that not only are virtually all their residents from allopathic schools(a much higher rate than the % of allopathic students vs. osteo students), most of them are from top 20 allopathic schools.
                                                                               

                                                                              skypilot

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                                                                              1. Attending Physician
                                                                                Originally posted by clumpymold
                                                                                I recently "realized" I wanted to pursue medicine (i.e., an MD degree) and if I don't get in, I highly doubt I'll consider a DO degree because that's not what I had planned for myself. I'd feel I'd be settling, if that makes sense.

                                                                                Does anyone else feel the same?

                                                                                Nope, I am going MD but I would go DO in a heartbeat. I decided this after looking at the faculty list at UMass Medical School which has about 30 DOs on it.

                                                                                I also talked to my mother who is a Radiologist and was surprised to find out that her colleague is a DO. I also found out that one of the most popular doctors in my hometown is a DO.

                                                                                Most people have no idea and don't really care anyway. Once you finish your residency you are identified as a Pediatrician, Surgeon, Anesthesiologist, or Family Practitioner. The degree you received before starting your residency fades into the background.
                                                                                 

                                                                                meanderson

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                                                                                  Originally posted by clumpymold

                                                                                  I recently "realized" I wanted to pursue medicine (i.e., an MD degree) and if I don't get in, I highly doubt I'll consider a DO degree because that's not what I had planned for myself. I'd feel I'd be settling, if that makes sense.

                                                                                  Does anyone else feel the same?

                                                                                  Ok...think about it. Is your goal to practice medicine, or to attend an allopathic school? If your goal is to practice medicine, then you can do that as a DO. If your goal is to attend an allopathic school, then you can't. It's really that simple.

                                                                                  If you don't want to ever use OMT or whatever it is when you leave DO school, then don't!! Many DO's who are in practice don't.

                                                                                  The biggest flaw in the argument that most DO's choose to go to osteopathic schools because of philosophy, OMT, etc is that over 60% of DO's match into allopathic residencies while osteopathic residencies typically go unfilled. If you're so in to the osteopathic philosophy, why match into an allopathic residency?

                                                                                  I don't plan on viewing my future DO colleagues as anything but equal professionals. But I'm also not going to pretend that they practice some different type of medicine......because they won't be.
                                                                                   
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