MD vs Doctor
- Thread starter DocEspana
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2010
- Messages
- 138
- Reaction score
- 0
But, I also find it amusing when med students put their med school year in their email signatures.You know who you are if you do this.
---
Jane Doe, MS2
Big Hospital School of Medicine
I added it to mine when I started summer research and starting e-mailing random people in the hospital. In a work environment you kind of need the signature that gives people your phone number ect and lets them know who you are.
If I'm sending an email that has to be formal, I find it takes all of 5 seconds to type my name and what ever other information (i.e. post nominals, title, phone number, ID number) I think needs to be included.
- Joined
- May 7, 2011
- Messages
- 455
- Reaction score
- 8
It's silly. Noone cares if you're MS II, MSIII, or w/e.
University of State SoM c/o 20## is sufficient to avoid looking like "oh well actually, I'm a second year"
- Joined
- May 7, 2011
- Messages
- 455
- Reaction score
- 8
(I say this only because this is what the PI in my lab has said, as well as a doctor I shadowed)
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2009
- Messages
- 1,980
- Reaction score
- 2,568
My scrubs all say "Dr. Bob Lastname" but that's because I go by "Dr. Bob" at work, both with the staff and patients. However, my ID badge says Bob Lastname DO.
Everyone else at work has Firstname Lastname, Degree on their scrubs.
Everyone else at work has Firstname Lastname, Degree on their scrubs.
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2008
- Messages
- 1,560
- Reaction score
- 1,298
White Coat: Dr. XXXX YYYY, D.O. (then under Orthopaedic Surgery Resident)
ID: Dr. YYYYY (no credentials) then we also have another badge below it that says "Physician"
However, the ID system is all messed up because some people have any of the following combinations with credentials or no credentials behind them (or the wrong ones as well):
XXX YYY
Dr. XXXX
Dr. XXX YYY
Dr. YYYY
ID: Dr. YYYYY (no credentials) then we also have another badge below it that says "Physician"
However, the ID system is all messed up because some people have any of the following combinations with credentials or no credentials behind them (or the wrong ones as well):
XXX YYY
Dr. XXXX
Dr. XXX YYY
Dr. YYYY
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2010
- Messages
- 138
- Reaction score
- 0
That's actually what I put, "school name class of xx". How is that different than just saying "School name, M1/2/3"? Both tell you what year I am.
- Joined
- May 7, 2011
- Messages
- 455
- Reaction score
- 8
Not what you say; how you say it. It doesn't make a difference to me, I'm just saying that some people can get irked by it.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2012
- Messages
- 17
- Reaction score
- 1
People perceive it as tedious or pretentious and for most doesn't really hold much weight until you tack on "MD" or "DO".
People at my school put the following:
"John Smith, M.D. Candidate
XXXX School Of Medicine Class of 20XX"
If they're on the student senate or some club leader they'll also tack on
"Class of 20XX Class Rep"
which gets sent out to everyone and I roll my eyes every time. No one gives a **** that your a "MD Candidate" except your ego. Check yourself, you just look like a dick. I'm sure these people are also the same people who mention all the time they're a medical student in casual conversation.
"Hey, did you see the last episode of The Glee Project?"
"Yeah, I watched it the next day, being a medical student and all."
That was my rant.
"John Smith, M.D. Candidate
XXXX School Of Medicine Class of 20XX"
If they're on the student senate or some club leader they'll also tack on
"Class of 20XX Class Rep"
which gets sent out to everyone and I roll my eyes every time. No one gives a **** that your a "MD Candidate" except your ego. Check yourself, you just look like a dick. I'm sure these people are also the same people who mention all the time they're a medical student in casual conversation.
"Hey, did you see the last episode of The Glee Project?"
"Yeah, I watched it the next day, being a medical student and all."
That was my rant.
- Joined
- May 7, 2011
- Messages
- 455
- Reaction score
- 8
But, I also find it amusing when med students put their med school year in their email signatures.
---
Jane Doe, MS2
Big Hospital School of Medicine
^Odds are if you post on SDN, you're one of these people.
I haven't read beyond this post yet so I eagerly anticipate the justification(s) for such email signatures.
I agree with this as well...the short coats look ridiculous.
A friend of mine went out to the bars with us and wore his badge. When I told him he forgot to take it off he simply said, "Don't worry about it, man," and proceeded like nothin was wrong. I am sure he starts all conversations with a reference to medical--at least his Facebook statuses reflect this, haha.
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2010
- Messages
- 112
- Reaction score
- 37
It's not about confidence. The DO does not carry the same respect as the MD and that's just a fact. I'm in a ACGME residency program and my director stated that he planned to try to cut down on the amount of DO's in the program and up the MDs as that program "matured" and became "stronger". We would be far better off embracing that we are doctors of medicine with a small bit of training in OMM and have a degree that more accurately reflects that such as MDO. I strongly contend that his makes much more sense and would be easier for patients to understand that we are doctors, medically trained with the additional "o" for additional training in osteo.
The voices that contest this stance on this forum are loud and will post ad nauseum that the DO is better and better represents us. They say it is about confidence. That is a brilliant presupposition but of course false. They are trying to prevent change because in some way or another the loud voices usually are invested in OMM. This is why they post ad nauseum on these forums. Unlike us in ACGME residencies who don't have the time. The ones in OMM residency have plenty of time and thus louder voice on this forum. They are also.... due to the old boy club and lack of open voting in our field , the ones represented to represent our interests in the AOA.
Isn't it funny how most student DO's want to do ACGME residencies? Ask yourself, are the ones who get these spots usually strong students? Now ask the question, how many of those who go through AGCME residencies are representing us in the AOA? Answer... few to none. Those that represent us are the blow hard , hard core OMMers with a lot of invested interests to protect.
The truth ain't always easy to swallow kids.
Am I proud of my training? Yes. Do I feel confident and competent in my abilities? Yes Am I glad to be in an ACGME residency ? Yes
Do I feel my degree title is an accurate representation of my training? No, I do not feel that DO accurately represents my medical with additional osteopathic training.
Do I feel that MDO would be a more accurate representation of my training ? Yes absolutely
The voices that contest this stance on this forum are loud and will post ad nauseum that the DO is better and better represents us. They say it is about confidence. That is a brilliant presupposition but of course false. They are trying to prevent change because in some way or another the loud voices usually are invested in OMM. This is why they post ad nauseum on these forums. Unlike us in ACGME residencies who don't have the time. The ones in OMM residency have plenty of time and thus louder voice on this forum. They are also.... due to the old boy club and lack of open voting in our field , the ones represented to represent our interests in the AOA.
Isn't it funny how most student DO's want to do ACGME residencies? Ask yourself, are the ones who get these spots usually strong students? Now ask the question, how many of those who go through AGCME residencies are representing us in the AOA? Answer... few to none. Those that represent us are the blow hard , hard core OMMers with a lot of invested interests to protect.
The truth ain't always easy to swallow kids.
Am I proud of my training? Yes. Do I feel confident and competent in my abilities? Yes Am I glad to be in an ACGME residency ? Yes
Do I feel my degree title is an accurate representation of my training? No, I do not feel that DO accurately represents my medical with additional osteopathic training.
Do I feel that MDO would be a more accurate representation of my training ? Yes absolutely
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2010
- Messages
- 2,698
- Reaction score
- 14
I like the idea where both allopathic and osteopathic schools awarded the MD degree with the addition of osteopathic schools granting the DO.
Example: John Doe, MD, DO (Medical Doctor and Diplomat of Osteopathy.)
It would make foreign work a lot easier for osteopathic physicians.
Example: John Doe, MD, DO (Medical Doctor and Diplomat of Osteopathy.)
It would make foreign work a lot easier for osteopathic physicians.
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2010
- Messages
- 112
- Reaction score
- 37
Yes, I agree. That would be optimal.
I believe however that that may be more difficult to implement than MDO. The reason is that, to my understanding, the degree of MD is currently only approved to be awarded by LCME medical schools in the US. I'm not sure how schools like Ross etc get around this legally. Thus I believe there may be legal hurtles for the AOA to be allowed to award a designation of MD. I do not think that same hurtles would apply to a "degree designation change" to MDO.
If I'm wrong on this I would be very happy to be however.
If I were to vote for first second and third choices in degree designation, I would vote
1)MD, DO
2) MDO
3) oMD
4)OMG,DO, MD
5) DO
: ))
Last edited:
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2010
- Messages
- 6,208
- Reaction score
- 36
Remember, they are off-shore schools. In places like Cambodia, Panama, etc. they also award MD degrees.
I think the easiest solution is to allow DOs to be licensed as MDs the way MBBS holders are, but failing that, a name change to MDO is essential considering american DOs are being confused with non-physician DOs internationally.
- Joined
- May 26, 2010
- Messages
- 736
- Reaction score
- 39
Serious question. Do you honestly believe that by changing our degree designation that we would suddenly be equivalent in MD program director's eyes. We're still the same exact physicians that did not attend an MD school, why is everyone so sure that if we changed our initials we would magically be free of discrimination.
Personally, I say STOP worrying about the degree change already. Improve the profession in a meaningful way. Show that we're equal by proving it. Changing our degree initials is NOT going to change discrimination. Work to research and prove OMT techniques. If we can't provide any solid evidence for it, than we should stop teaching it (my opinion). Work to improve the standards of our residency programs. Improve COCA's accreditation standards. These are things we should be fighting for. I wish we could unify toward improving our profession instead of worrying about degree changes.
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2010
- Messages
- 2,811
- Reaction score
- 1,138
There are bigger fish to fry than adding an M. We should be getting involved as students and pushing for changes that actually mean something.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2009
- Messages
- 16,404
- Reaction score
- 7,599
What changes or betterments of the career do you think are possible? Sure replacing the DO with an MD will not change the perception of MD directors, however I'm not sure whether that was the intended end point either.
Either way, you're right in saying that making DO schools offer the MD, DO is not going to solve any of the problems. The only way however to solve these problems, is to make the ACGME/LCME recognize DO training as equal and up to par with MD training. This however will only occur when all DO residencies are ACGME dual accredited and when all DO schools are LCME dual accredited ( However this will not occur as COCA forbids it).
Until then it's only a short time before the DO ship starts sinking.
Since when did the AOA start caring what SOMA wanted? Furthermore by the time you become a DO and could join the AOA and start exerting power over decisions what's best for the DO world and maybe even too late to change anything.
Either way, you're right in saying that making DO schools offer the MD, DO is not going to solve any of the problems. The only way however to solve these problems, is to make the ACGME/LCME recognize DO training as equal and up to par with MD training. This however will only occur when all DO residencies are ACGME dual accredited and when all DO schools are LCME dual accredited ( However this will not occur as COCA forbids it).
Until then it's only a short time before the DO ship starts sinking.
Since when did the AOA start caring what SOMA wanted? Furthermore by the time you become a DO and could join the AOA and start exerting power over decisions what's best for the DO world and maybe even too late to change anything.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2007
- Messages
- 597
- Reaction score
- 5
What ship is sinking? I hate to break it to you, but regardless of what you think about the DO profession/AOA, this is the strongest the profession has ever been throughout its 100+ years of existence (read the history).... So I don't know where you got the perception that there is a sinking ship but I'm sure you'll explain in your reply (looking forward to it)
BTW, SOMA represents a tiny percentage (roughly 10%) of AOA's constituents (who aren't even DOs yet), therefore, their words/opinions only caries so much weight (as it should).
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2010
- Messages
- 2,811
- Reaction score
- 1,138
Even if SOMA has little pull (or even none at all), student involvement sets the stage for one's involvement as a professional down the road; similarly, one's lack of involvement and subsequent apathy towards the political realm of medicine sets a tone in the opposite light. The issues that you and Hockey mentioned- improving residencies and OMT research, as well as holding all programs to rigorous standards, amongst other things - are areas that could be brought to light with a strong collective voice. Maybe nothing will come of it and the old guard will continue with the same old same old... but such a possibility (as likely as it may be) should not keep us from making an attempt to be heard, first as students and residents, and later as attendings.
As far as the degree issue, I guess a change to MD, DO (AT Still anyone?) could help with public recognition, which may be worth it; I don't know...
.
- Joined
- May 26, 2010
- Messages
- 736
- Reaction score
- 39
It seems like it was most definitely one of the major endpoints to me. Attendings and Residents on have already stated that patients asking what a D.O is is way overblown in the real world. If we all know that changing our initials isn't going to change M.D directors perspectives and we also know that a majority of patients do not care about D.O/M.D, then what is the point of wasting our energy fighting to change that is going to be irrelevant? Why not fight for something that matters?
I agree that we need to improve our residency standards, and more importantly open residencies outside of MI/PA and the other states that have a majority of D.O residencies. If we can do this, our public awareness will increase, and so will our degree recognition. However, I do know that it is very difficult of open a residency program, and it's even more difficult for it to become established.
Since SOMA has been a direct branch of the AOA, and since any resolution passed by the SOMA HoD pertaining to the AOA goes to the AOA HoD. Does that mean it will pass through the AOA and be approved? Of course not. But can it? Yes, we just had one resolution pass the AOA HoD regarding discrimination of transgender students/applicants. It's FAR better than any other options you would have as a student trying to change policies on your own. We need to stop thinking "Since when does the AOA care" and "by the time we can do anything it may be too late". Nothing is going to change with that attitude. I hope that if you attend a D.O school that you'll be active and try to illicit change instead of believing there is nothing that we can do.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2009
- Messages
- 16,404
- Reaction score
- 7,599
What ship is sinking? I hate to break it to you, but regardless of what you think about the DO profession/AOA, this is the strongest the profession has ever been throughout its 100+ years of existence (read the history).... So I don't know where you got the perception that there is a sinking ship but I'm sure you'll explain in your reply (looking forward to it)
BTW, SOMA represents a tiny percentage (roughly 10%) of AOA's constituents (who aren't even DOs yet), therefore, their words/opinions only caries so much weight (as it should).
Yes, the strongest it's been, but that doesn't really mean much. Right now the DO profession is on the precisest of becoming the new Carribean thanks to a combination of for-profit universities, low amounts of AOA residencies, and the impending ACGME residency crunch that will push DO's out. Combine this with the fact that the AMA/ACGME have now openly stated they believe DO training to be inferior, it's only a time before the ACGME posts an ultimatium that bars DO's from doing ACGME fellowships and residencies.
The reality is that the DO world is going to either crumble by way of a single pen stroke of the AMA, or by way of DO schools slowly accepting the former over a period of time for the overall betterment and end of issues.
And SOMA should be listened to the AOA. But even small demands like the removal of cranial is denied despite it being absolute qwackery.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2009
- Messages
- 16,404
- Reaction score
- 7,599
I'm not denying that, however what I think is that SOMA is going to be a breeding ground for some very disgruntled DO's who want to change the field for the better but will continuously be denied.
In terms of switching to MD, DO, I think regardless of what is done all DO medical schools need to be LCME accredited and after that they can offer the MD as well as offer/ hell even force their students to get a DO.
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2010
- Messages
- 2,811
- Reaction score
- 1,138
I'm not sure it's as doom-n-gloom as this. If anything is appears as if the ACGME and the AOA are working with one another to improve the situation across the board, for all US grads (with their own respective interests at heart of course) , instead of implementing a push towards dissolving (or absorbing) DO education/training.
The DO profession is not going anywhere. It has been through much worse and has grown stronger with each obstacle, as I'm sure it will with the current situations at hand.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2009
- Messages
- 16,404
- Reaction score
- 7,599
Unfortunately I'm under the assumption that no matter what SOMA says, no matter how hard they want it a lot of almost basic demands will never be accepted the AOA. The reality is that if I do attend a DO school I will almost certainly be a part of my school's SOMA and work hard to fight the AOA and better the field. But the reality is that like I said, by the time I'm even a DO the face of medicine and how DO's are able to legally practice could have been changes so majorly that there might not be anything left to do. I truly believe that the AOA is simply doing nothing while sitting on a very unstable foundation that at any moment will collapse and bring an end to the 50 years of prosperity that DO's have had.
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2010
- Messages
- 2,811
- Reaction score
- 1,138
I agree. There also should be an umbrella group of some sort that oversees all of postgrad physician training, especially being that a large bulk of funding for these programs is coming from public money (according to my understanding; correct me if I'm wrong). I'm surprised someone from the political realm has not pushed this issue demanding high quality outcomes when the people's money is at use. In this day and age, there should not be a discrepancy in standards for physician training anywhere in the US. If we want equality, we need to be held to the same standards... at the very least.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2009
- Messages
- 16,404
- Reaction score
- 7,599
I'm a doom and gloom type of guy. The reality is that the AOA isn't working towards improving the situation. DO's are already barred from doing fellowships and entering PGY-2 residencies if they didn't do an ACGME internship, do you think it won't get worse?
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2010
- Messages
- 2,698
- Reaction score
- 14
That's one positive change I think the field needs. All DO schools should be duel accredited by AOA and LCME. In Addition, all DO residencies should be AOA and ACGME accredited and open to allopathic applicants with the requirement that they be trained up to par in osteopathic manipulation medicine.
- Joined
- May 26, 2010
- Messages
- 736
- Reaction score
- 39
They are working to improve the situation. It's their careers on the line as well. DO's are not banned from any residencies. That has not passed. The AOA is now working jointly with the ACGME (which is why it hasn't passed, and probably will not pass) on how to make sure our residencies are up to par.
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 26, 2010
- Messages
- 736
- Reaction score
- 39
This was a resolution brought up BY the AOA this year, but the wording didn't explain how osteopathic core competencies (mostly OMM) would be met by incoming MD students. It may not have been passed this year (it was not even voted on, so it very well could have) but it will be rewritten and brought up again.
As a previous poster said, if we get involved in medical school and continue to stay involved there will be a time in the future where WE will be the ones voting, and no the profession will not be "sunk" by the time we're there.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2009
- Messages
- 16,404
- Reaction score
- 7,599
I think the ACGME didn't want to add on to these residencies because it knows it would need to pour it's assets into them for them to become higher quality.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2007
- Messages
- 597
- Reaction score
- 5
What are you talking about? How can it be that an organization/profession that survived for 100+ years during much, much more dire times, all of the sudden now when it is the strongest it has ever been is going to crumble? No offense, but that's not a very logical argument. There were times that the AMA actively fought DOs (even 20-30 years ago) and the profession was able to survive. I wouldn't worry about "crumbling" of the profession anytime in the near future!
If anything AMA/ACGME (at least publicly) have recognized the DO training more than ever before. You seem to forget that merely 30-50 years ago, DOs were not allowed to enter ACGME at all.
Also, FYI, the "residency crunch" will mostly affect the 5000+ slots that go to FMGs! Again, when consistently, every year the DO match results have improved (especially compared to 20-30 years ago) despite increase in numbers, it is hard to make an argument like yours.
Seriously, your attitude is to "fight the AOA" and you haven't even entered the profession? You've been on SDN for too long! Although I'm a big critic of the AOA for SOME of its actions (RVU comes to mind), at the end of the day (you know when s*** hits the fan) AOA is the only organization that will stand up for me and other DOs (self interest), so I'm not sure if it's in our best interest to "fight" it. In fact all DOs should work harder to make it stronger. Regardless of what you read on SDN, the big picture (on the scale of decades) is that the profession is on an upward trajectory and the AOA has a lot to do with that, since they pretty much have a monopoly on everything. So again, it is hard to come here and make your arguments when objectively/factually there is very little to support it.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2011
- Messages
- 671
- Reaction score
- 4
Haven't you read some of his other posts? That's pretty much serenade in a nutshell. Spew bull**** like it's fact, and never produce any solid evidence.
- Joined
- May 26, 2010
- Messages
- 736
- Reaction score
- 39
The two bolded comments are the most important here (although I agree with the rest as well).
The residency crunch is going to affect IMG's far more than it will affect us. As I said previously the AOA is actively working with the ACGME on how to bring the two groups closer together. The sky isn't falling here.
Second, and most importantly, we ARE the AOA. Once you enter medical school you're given a free membership. As students we may not agree with some of the policies set forth, but that's why we need to encourage activism. We're not fighting the AOA, we're trying to change a few draconian methods. The more of us that work together, the easier it will be.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2009
- Messages
- 16,404
- Reaction score
- 7,599
Love you too.
Furthermore the Residency crunch will have pushed out all FMG's by 2018, afterward who do you think is going to be getting the short end of the stick? Yes, I'm being overly pragmatic, nothing really can be said objectively to support the whole falling sky part of my post. But it's not hard to assume that based on what the ACGME is pulling now that these things aren't insanely out of the possibility. Yes, the osteopathic profession is at it's strongest, but it still a small fish compared to the MD organizations. And maybe the AOA is the only organization that defends DO's, but there is no denying that it does a lot of propogating the myth of a distinction and the separate, but equal position mostly because it doesn't want to lose power.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2007
- Messages
- 597
- Reaction score
- 5
Yes, everything is possible; It is also possible (and likely) that by 2018, they will increase residency slots, decrease class size growth rate/opening new schools and even more likely is that they may keep the residency slots relatively stable and decrease the length of training as the AMA has been alluding to for the past few years, therefore getting more graduates into residency while keeping the expense relatively the same (read their newsletter from a month or so ago in which they argued just that).
So, even though everything is possible, neither you nor I can predict the future, but at the present time there hasn't been any huge change in residency availability/placement for osteopathic graduates and given the track record of both AOA and AMA as well as their interest in self-preservation, there is no imminent threat in the foreseeable future. Also, if anything, this builds a more powerful case for us to be more involved within the AOA and make it stronger for the upcoming negotiations (both in DC and with AMA et al.).
And yes, AOA, like any other organization, has no interest in losing power! Why should they?
Last but certainly not least, if you are so worried about the future of DOs the simplest solution for you is not to apply/go to DO schools and then there is nothing for you to worry about! It's really that simple
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2010
- Messages
- 112
- Reaction score
- 37
So, this question has been bothering me enough that I decided to ask my ACGME Residency director that made the statement.
Questions asked:
1) Have you been disappointed with the performance of DO residents in your program and do you feel that they have performed at a lower level than allopathic counterparts?
A: No, I feel that the DOs that I selected in this program have performed at an equally high level and in several cases higher than allopathic residents
2) Do you believe that adding an M to the DO initials to make MDO would change perception and raise the status of the Osteopathic profession?
A: Honestly, yes
3) Do you think it would affect your decision to continue integrating Osteopathic residents into the program and why?
A: Yes, I believe it would lead to less confusion among the public in our community
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2010
- Messages
- 2,698
- Reaction score
- 14
Why change it to MDO? It's just another acronym no one knows.
MD, DO is the best route. Anything less only adds more problems.
MD, DO is the best route. Anything less only adds more problems.
- Joined
- May 27, 2011
- Messages
- 3,486
- Reaction score
- 82
I myself heard a doctor said to a nurse that DO mostly specialize in BONES...The guy graduated from ST GEORGE UNIVERSITY...That was funny.
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2012
- Messages
- 462
- Reaction score
- 27
Isn't that same logic what happened to the US economy? It was the strongest it had even been .....then BOOM recession
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2010
- Messages
- 6,208
- Reaction score
- 36
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXY0cSWcekI[/YOUTUBE]
Osteopathic with "Dr." on the coat.
Osteopathic with "Dr." on the coat.
Interestingly enough though, on his website he explains the osteopathic philosophy and explains how it makes him different from MDs.
http://www.nonsurgicalcosmeticla.com/Dr.PejmanBahari.htm
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2010
- Messages
- 6,208
- Reaction score
- 36
I think he just doesn't want to be dealing with the "what's a DO?" BS all day long, but he seems proud of his medical training.
