Med school lasting 5 years instead of 4?

[studentologist]

I'm know I'm not the first med student to think med school curriculum could not possibly teach or require us to know any more information than what they do right now. But there are new additions to curriculum every year as more is discovered, and every year textbooks have to get a little thicker. With that in mind, do you think med school will ever have to be lengthened to 5 years because of an increase in information and the time required to learn it all?

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[Nikki2002]

maybe they will eliminate summer/holiday breaks.

i ate easter dinner in the med school library once.

 

[deleted128562]

I'm know I'm not the first med student to think med school curriculum could not possibly teach or require us to know any more information than what they do right now. But there are new additions to curriculum every year as more is discovered, and every year textbooks have to get a little thicker. With that in mind, do you think med school will ever have to be lengthened to 5 years because of an increase in information and the time required to learn it all?

I have wondered this myself. The "fund of knowledge" that medical students must learn now is, without doubt, much greater than 20 years ago and waaaaaaaayyyyy more than 50 years ago. And yet medical school remains a 4 year endeavor. Many institutions have killed summer break after all but first year. I could probably retain a lot more if the classes weren't crammed into such short time-spans, but I'd also hate to think about going an extra year. So who knows.

 

[RySerr21]

how bout they just get rid of all the useless **** they make us learn while adding only RELEVANT new stuff. I think with this attitude we may actually be able to cut down the years of med school. Just think about Duke...they are only in the classroom for one year and then they are in the hospital (just like an MS3 would be). They cant possibly cover EVERYTHING that other schoosl cover in 2 years. and their students are passing the step I just fine. my guess is they have just filtered out most of the BS. at least I would hope they filtered out BS and not stuff that is useful for practicing medicine....

 

[Bonesaw45]

The big trend in medicine seems to be teaching people how to understand biological systems and how to seek out appropriate and qualified resources to acquire knowledge of newer material. Many teachers and MDs have acknowledged the fact that there is not enough time and there are things we will have to teach ourselves throughout our career. They are teaching you tools to understand a system that is rather predictable (things inhibit and things upregulate, we want to upregulate HDL genes and down regulate cancer genes) nothing is all that complicated. I don't really see the point of a 5th year for memorization when many physicians tell me they don't use most of what they learned in medical school.

 

[ChiDO]

They teach a bunch of useless **** that you have to know for the boards but have no relevance to being a physician. I love when we have clinicians talk about something in class and they're like, you have to know this for the boards, but in my 30 years, I have yet to see it. If you do see it before I die, shoot me an email!

Stuff we learn in micro that affects like ~10 people per year....ya...waste of time.

Hopefully, the combination of step 1/2 eliminates the uselessness of all this crazy stuff we have to learn.

 

[studentologist]

My guess is that undergraduate institutions will have to pick up the slack by offering better, more efficient majors that better cover the basic sciences. Then, med schools can teach less basic sciences to allow for more clinically relevant information. But in order for both of those things to happen, there will have to be more highly qualified professors at the undergrad level, and more physicians teaching at the med school level.

 

[DeadCactus]

The basic science isn't to make you an expert in basic science. It give you a strong foundation to be able to pick up an article or textbook, learn what you need to learn, and then apply it. It's what makes a physician a physician; the foundation to learn and understand basic science principles and apply them to clinical management.

An MD is an undergraduate medical education. It's not about the facts and technical knowledge as much as it is about a strong foundation to learn and apply basic and clinical science. It's more about the medical method of thinking and problem solving than the actual knowledge. As in every other field, the detailed technical aspects are learned in graduate education.

I never understand why people complain about "useless" basic science. You may not use those specific details, just as a BioChem PhD probably nevers uses 90% of the biochem they learned because it's irrelevant to their specific niche. But if you strip away that foundation and understanding and you strip away a large portion of what makes a physician a physician...

 

[RySerr21]

The basic science isn't to make you an expert in basic science. It give you a strong foundation to be able to pick up an article or textbook, learn what you need to learn, and then apply it. It's what makes a physician a physician; the foundation to learn and understand basic science principles and apply them to clinical management.

An MD is an undergraduate medical education. It's not about the facts and technical knowledge as much as it is about a strong foundation to learn and apply basic and clinical science. It's more about the medical method of thinking and problem solving than the actual knowledge. As in every other field, the detailed technical aspects are learned in graduate education.

I never understand why people complain about "useless" basic science. You may not use those specific details, just as a BioChem PhD probably nevers uses 90% of the biochem they learned because it's irrelevant to their specific niche. But if you strip away that foundation and understanding and you strip away a large portion of what makes a physician a physician...

tts not complaining about being taught a foundation for basic science principles that can be applied to clinical settings...the stuff im talking about has NO APPLICATION. Its the stuff that you are told to memorize simply for the sake of memorization. For example when you get a question worth 4 points that asks you the number of base pairs in the E Coli genome...umm, seriously? What does that teach me? How is that knowledge building a foundation for scientific learning? Its the random factoids that nobody cares about and that you will forget 5 minutes after the test is over...its that stuff that is irritating and it comes up more often that you'd expect.

 

[studentologist]

I'm not insinuating anything negative about basic sciences. I see the need, purpose, and foundation that they serve. I'm just saying that undergrads offer biochem, anatomy, etc. And those are courses that are reinforced throughout nearly every class in med school. So if something had to go in order to fit in more clinically-relevant information, I'm guessing that's where the room would be made.

 

[studentologist]

For example when you get a question worth 4 points that asks you the number of base pairs in the E Coli genome...

Sometimes I feel like they only ask questions like that to separate the B+ from the A- students to determine class rank.

 

[synapse lapse]

The basic science isn't to make you an expert in basic science. It give you a strong foundation to be able to pick up an article or textbook, learn what you need to learn, and then apply it. It's what makes a physician a physician; the foundation to learn and understand basic science principles and apply them to clinical management.

An MD is an undergraduate medical education. It's not about the facts and technical knowledge as much as it is about a strong foundation to learn and apply basic and clinical science. It's more about the medical method of thinking and problem solving than the actual knowledge. As in every other field, the detailed technical aspects are learned in graduate education.

I never understand why people complain about "useless" basic science. You may not use those specific details, just as a BioChem PhD probably nevers uses 90% of the biochem they learned because it's irrelevant to their specific niche. But if you strip away that foundation and understanding and you strip away a large portion of what makes a physician a physician...

I'm glad you have such a detailed knowledge of medical curriculum and purpose. In any case, med school should if anything be cut down a year, made without sumer breaks, and removed of all the BS they teach that has no clinical purpose (in other words, like Duke or Baylor does). Obviously the field grows at such a tremendous rate that you can't be taught everything, so we school will need to become more selective in the future about what they focus on. As the above posters, I always thought it was absurd to learn drug treatments for diseases we will never see when you can easily look those up (i.e. leprosy), or some rare diseases that have only affected 1-10 people ever. Those are things for specialists. I also think it's absurd having to learn what chromosome/loci a disease maps to... after all as our understanding of genetics increases this list will grow exponentially - will future students have an entire course memorizing genetic maps But in the end it doesn't matter what medical students think, schools have their own individual pedagogical stance and most professors have their areas of research, and it isn't possible for most people in administration to envision and establish a progressive system focusing on clinical relevance.

 

[USArmyDoc]

Actually, I think they can knock it down to 3 years if they take away all the damn elective time in 4th year.

 

[RySerr21]

Sometimes I feel like they only ask questions like that to separate the B+ from the A- students to determine class rank.

My school is true P/F, which makes it even more annoying that they ask those questions b/c it literally doesnt matter. Its nice tho b/c i dont really have to care about getting them wrong, its just fun to complain about them

 

[Typical Premed]

Actually, I think they can knock it down to 3 years if they take away all the damn elective time in 4th year.

We actually have a couple 3 year programs here in Canada and their graduates seem to do fine.

 

[NTF]

no way no how do you need a 5th year. If you get rid of all the useless stuff you could get it down to 3. That year of condensed classwork would suck though...

 

[hypnix]

UIC has a 5 year program. They split the first year into two years. I wish I was on it sometimes.

 

[45408]

UIC has a 5 year program. They split the first year into two years. I wish I was on it sometimes.

A lot of schools will offer this to their students. I know a few people (mostly women with young children) who have done this, but my school doesn't advertise that you can.


I don't think med school will ever be any longer. Instead, people are adding on at the end. More and more people do a fellowship in something these days.

 

[sprinkibrio]

This will never happen. Knowledge isn't expanding that fast and fourth year is basically a "year off" anyways. PLUS and most importantly, 95% of what we learn first year is useless for medical practice. Those who do use it in their super specific field will learn it again in residency and practice if it is truly useful to them.

 

[deleted263296]

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[Non-TradTulsa]

I try to read literature on medical education - I don't know why, except that I'm old. The trend in medical education is to discuss dropping the fourth year and making medical school only 3 years. Given the down time and cush electives I've had so far in 4th year, this makes a great deal of sense to me - it's an attempt to try to cut-down on how much debt we take on.

However, the idea is having a hard time gaining any traction - and I know why. If you took a bunch of 3rd years on core rotations and told them that they also had to do residency apps, interviews, and travel - they'd lose their minds.

So I'm enjoying 4th year as much as I can, even though I resent the debt I'm taking on for a year of electives. But, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has even suggested 5 years.

 

[USArmyDoc]

My school's trying to cram their curriculum into 3 years. I just want to graduate and the shorter medical school is the better. With the amount of redundancy in the curriculum, I'm sure it's possible.

It is definitely possible....They should eliminate some of the unneccessary rotations and some elective time.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

As mentioned above, the trend right now is shorter not longer. Look at the number of schools that are condensing the basic science curriculum into 1.5 years or less - it seems to be working well for them. Similarly if you eliminate some of the "fluff" in 3rd/4th year (I won't be doing a "real" rotation again until 2010), you could condense the clinical years as well.

 

[Simmy]

Im in a 6 year (european) program, and I must say when I see the people in the 4 yr program at my school Im glad Im not them. There is alot of americans in my class actually. We dont have to do pre-med, and instead some of the basic since classes are included in the first year (like bio physics, basic chem and biology)... I had anatomy and histology the first year amd this year I have biochem and physiology as the main subjects....


Oh yeah... did I mention the THREE MONTHS of summer break!!! (although we have to have practical work for one month, but thats cool since Im from norway and get paid for that anyways)

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Im in a 6 year (european) program, and I must say when I see the people in the 4 yr program at my school Im glad Im not them. There is alot of americans in my class actually. We dont have to do pre-med, and instead some of the basic since classes are included in the first year (like bio physics, basic chem and biology)... I had anatomy and histology the first year amd this year I have biochem and physiology as the main subjects....


Oh yeah... did I mention the THREE MONTHS of summer break!!! (although we have to have practical work for one month, but thats cool since Im from norway and get paid for that anyways)

But that is because your program is 6 years straight out of high school, correct? That is actually "shorter" than our educational track since we all end up doing 4+4 (or maybe 3+4 if you graduated college early).

 

[Lokhtar]

tts not complaining about being taught a foundation for basic science principles that can be applied to clinical settings...the stuff im talking about has NO APPLICATION. Its the stuff that you are told to memorize simply for the sake of memorization. For example when you get a question worth 4 points that asks you the number of base pairs in the E Coli genome...umm, seriously? What does that teach me? How is that knowledge building a foundation for scientific learning? Its the random factoids that nobody cares about and that you will forget 5 minutes after the test is over...its that stuff that is irritating and it comes up more often that you'd expect.

Yes, that makes no sense. If you're forced to memorize irrelevancies instead of an integrated big picture, I can completely see how people can lose most of it about a month after the boards are over.

If you look at grad school courses, the focus is on understanding the material. Very few questions test direct facts, and if you want to know the number of bp in E.Coli, you know how to look it up. How and why are more important than what - and that's what most people (PhDs and MDs) need more than the minute details I'd think. Except in your very specific area of practice.

 

[Simmy]

But that is because your program is 6 years straight out of high school, correct? That is actually "shorter" than our educational track since we all end up doing 4+4 (or maybe 3+4 if you graduated college early).

Yes that is correct... But remember that Norwegian HS is untill the year you turn 19. So we actually have alot of the basic sience classes like chemistry, physics and biology at college level in HS... But the americans in my class are straight out of HS in America, so they will be very young when they finish. I started when I was 21 years old because I did army service and had to add some HS classes to get into medicine.

 

[MossPoh]

Nope, all of that information is what residency is for. You'll never know all of that crap and I see it has pretty useless to invest another year in information you will likely forget once you begin your specialty of choice.

 

[justdoit31]

My school's trying to cram their curriculum into 3 years. I just want to graduate and the shorter medical school is the better. With the amount of redundancy in the curriculum, I'm sure it's possible.

Our director of curriculum was talking about this too- basically what he wanted to do was the clinical in 1.5 year and then electives- but he said it would be a smaller class and they would be required to go into primary care which is how they would eliminate some of the electives (maybe cut the 2 months on surgery to 1?)... he didn't go into the details just that he was working on it.