Med School Single Parents?

[Keona]

I have a close family friend who became pregnant her sophomore year of nursing school, and she has been doing quite well with it. I would recommend against taking a year off, based on what I have seen with her. When her son was first born it was very easy for her to study, since he slept a great deal of the time and wasn't very active. Now that he is over 2 years old he is in to everything, all of the time. When she calls on the phone you hear her constantly telling him to stop, it seems that it was easier for her scholastically when he was younger since he was much easier to manage. She has some support system, but they are mostly used while she's in class or doing clinicals, study time is when she has her son and her grades have suffered a little bit from this. She's still doing well in her classes though, and while nursing is obviously very different from medical school, there are some similarities between your situations.

It seems that it would be easier to handle a toddler when you weren't frantically studying, since whenever I watch the child I can't do anything other than follow him around and stop him from getting into dangerous places, sliding down stairs, climbing on tables, and any other thing that could seem child proof, and him proving it to be very unchildproof.

Good luck with your child!

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[zola]

A lot of the important issues have already been talked out here, but I did want to echo one previous point - taking a year off between 2nd and 3rd year may be a better option than between 1st and 2nd. When my daughter was an infant, it was much easier to do things that did not involve complete attention on her than it is now that she is a year and a half. She slept a lot, and when she wasn't asleep, I could hold her while I read or studied or worked on the computer and she wasn't tearing the pages and pounding on the keyboard or saying MOMMY MOMMY MOMMY over and over again. Although infants do sometimes have all night cry fests, 2nd year is much more forgiving in terms of schedule than a clinical year. Even if you have required classes, it probably wouldn't be the end of the world if you missed one here or there, whereas missing a day here or there of a surgery rotation would not be ok.

Also, the schedule 2nd year is much more closely matched to a daycare schedule. Our daycare here is 7 am to 6 pm which should be ok for most days, and I expect that since your daycare is also affiliated with the university/medical center it will have similar longer hours. (As an aside, try to get on the waiting list NOW! infant spots are hard to come by and even if you end up not taking the spot when it comes up you lose nothing). 3rd year the daycare hours will not cover everything, and you would need help in the mornings, evenings, and weekends. I do not have any really helpful suggestions for that, but if you do take the year off, 3rd year is two years away, and a lot of things can change in 2 years.

Oh and one last thing, legally, you are allowed to increase your loans to cover childcare - I think it is a federal law.

 

[deleted98681]

I agree with Zola -- get on daycare waiting lists now. Your school may have a daycare, but they could also have a waiting list with a hundred people on it.

Also, some schools allow students to decelerate pre-clinical years, that might be worth investigating in lieu of a complete year off. I took a full year off between first and second year when I had my second kid and, though I treasure the time I had with her as a baby, I wish that I had been able to decelerate and still get some med school stuff done during that year. As for a year off after 2nd year, it would be better in terms of boards and maybe even save you some money in terms of childcare, but, personally, I really value the baby time -- it's a big transition and the early bonding is really important for you and the baby. I'm not sure I would be able to give a baby my full attention if I was also trying to keep up with med school

As for 3rd year - I am about to start rotations and, though I have chosen to invest in a nanny because I have two young kids, I explored au pairs (much cheaper, live in) and subletting a room to a college student in exchange for odd-hour child care and rides to/from daycare. This may be awful to say, but if you have money to throw at it, childcare during third year won't be the issue. So, with extra student loan money and child support, you should be fine.

However... it is ridiculously hard to go to medical school and raise young children and it will be ridiculously hard pretty much until you finish residency. You'll miss your kid, you're grades will suffer (during pregnancy, too), your social life will be severly limited (nothing like naptime to kill a good afternoon), and you will be in a state of constant stress (what if the baby gets sick and can't go to daycare? what if my sitter sleeps in / gets sick / is flakey? not to mention the typical medical student worries). On the upside, you will get really good at multitasking and creating back up plans. Don't get me wrong, it is very doable, but very taxing. Just recognize that you won't excel at the things you do anymore.

 

[physics junkie]

I know it doesn't make any sense for me to say that I don't want this to impact the father's life too much, but at this point I still don't really know what to expect. He has his opinions, but he wants me to truly figure out what I want to do before he springs them on me full-force. At the same time, I honestly believe that this is as much his choice as it is mine, and if I decide to go down a path that he doesn't want, I think he's within his rights to keep living a normal life. That's not to say that he wouldn't be around to help, but at this point, I'm really not sure.

By the way, it would be impossible for him to keep living a "normal life". I did not ever plan on having children when I got my girlfriend pregnant. We actually had a bit of a falling out because I was pushing for adoption at the time. My girlfriend told me that she didn't need my help and could "do it without me" and that I didn't have to be involved if I didn't want to be. Such a line of reasoning doesn't really work out as being a father is a serious responsibility to the child, not the mother. Not wanting a child doesn't make it easy, or even possible, to walk away.

You definitely have some difficult decisions in front of you either way you go. While I think its great that you are trying to consider what the father would want it would be a horrible idea to let his feelings sway you towards not keeping your child based on what he wants. I know, I'm assuming that he doesn't want to keep the child...but I can't imagine any guy in his right mind that would want to have a child with a woman that he doesn't intend on having a relationship with...especially at this point in his career. How you feel will dictate how the situation unfolds. The father gets to make the choice of how he wants to respond to your decision to keep the child or not. His life is going to change dramatically if you keep this child and it won't be about him, it will be about your child. There are so many questions that will arise that you can't plan for...ex: would you forego transferring if he wants to be involved in the child's life? Ultimately the answers to these kinds of questions will be decided by you...but in the role of a mother based on what you think is best for your kid and not what you think is best for him. It's big sacrifices all around. Even if he chooses the most extreme "not to be involved" position he will still be on the hook for $200,000+...and more importantly, the part of you that goes in to your child that you can't forget about. Bonding is...well, every parent understands.

Thanks for the pleasant wishes. I hope your situation works out.

 

[21isFun]

A leave of absence year may be a good choice- if I'm not mistaken you do have 7 years to finish once you begin, so if you need a year I'm sure you're school will agree it's in your best interest. Maybe both you and the father would take a year off after your M2 (as he is a year ahead the leave years would run back to back giving you 2 years where one parent was off and not interrupting the course of the clinical years for either of you)-he'd take this coming year before starting rotations while you finish your M2, and then you take a year off while he's doing his M3. Then the next year when you're doing your M3 he'll be in his M4 and depending on how he schedules his electives he may have a bit more flexibility than during his M3. At least this way you could knock out the first 2 years (and toughest 2 years) with at least one parent on leave-you're in this together to some degree and you should BOTH make sacrifices equally-not one parent bearing the greatest load. Sometimes the sacrifices are financial, others are time involved. This seems like a scenario where you could both make an equal contribution without interrupting the flow of either basic or clinical education for either person. During your M3 (his M4) you may be able to find another classmate who has children and a spouse staying at home to care for them-they may understand the difficulties of having a family and be willing to take on occasional child care duties for a small fee as they are already home with their own. And let's face it-everyone in med school is broke and any income is usually appreciated, so they may jump at the opportunity to get a little extra cash since they are already at home with their own kids. And who knows, that may be the best situation because they may understand you being delayed 30 minutes at the hospital to pick up your little one, because they've had it happen too.

Just a thought, but I think you should discuss with the father what kind of sacrifices he is willing to make as well.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

OP, Good luck with whatever you decide. My $0.02 would be that it's easier, far easier, to have a child in medical school (ESPECIALLY the preclinical years) than it is in residency. You are not essential to anything as a med student and it's much easier to swing time off, skip classes, call in sick, whatever than it is as a resident.

So if you do have fertility issues and want to be a mother, this might really be an opportune pregnancy.

As far as logistics go-- inform your Dean of Students as soon as you've made the decision to continue the pregnancy. Talk to your fellow students, in various classes, who have children-- how do they swing care, especially on long-hours rotations? There might well be some location-specific solutions to your questions.

And finally-- once that baby is out and your parents get to see him/her in all their adorableness, you might be surprised how their conservatism melts away. Just sayin.

 

[Mr Cookie Pants]

At the moment, the father and I actually live together (as friends, not as a couple), but I was originally planning to move out in early summer to be closer to school and my other friends. Obviously, I'm not sure if that's still the best course of action, but he and I definitely aren't going to live together permanently. He is in the new stages of a relationship and I really don't want to interfere with that.

As far as other forms of support, his situation isn't much better than mine. He's also a medical student, but he's in his third year (meaning he is crazy busy). We're both poor, we're both busy, and we're both a little bit freaked out at the moment.

I haven't talked to anyone else at my school about this yet. I haven't talked to anyone really, except for the women's health doctors and a few out of state friends. I do have my sister though (who also happens to be pregnant at the moment), and I think she'll be very supportive once I work up the nerve to tell her.

So you've been having sex with your roommate 'friend' who is 3 grade levels (and probably years too). But you don't want to be in a relationship or mess up his new one? Im sorry but something is fishy here. He sounds like a ginormous douche if he wont man up. Sounds like he was just using you on the side, or there's something you're not telling us.


So given the facts:

you're a MS0
no income
terrible schedule ahead
no desire to abort
want to go to school on time
don't want him involved
dont want to tell your parents

Basically you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. This will NOT work.

My advice
1. Take at least a year off.
2. have him man up and be a couple
3. give it up for adoption
4. choose another career path.

There are many combinations you can choose from here, but some major change will be required for you. I'm sorry, you f***ed up, and you need to make big people decisions.

 

[akpete]

So you've been having sex with your roommate 'friend' who is 3 grade levels (and probably years too). But you don't want to be in a relationship or mess up his new one? Im sorry but something is fishy here. He sounds like a ginormous douche if he wont man up. Sounds like he was just using you on the side, or there's something you're not telling us.


So given the facts:

you're a MS0
no income
terrible schedule ahead
no desire to abort
want to go to school on time
don't want him involved
dont want to tell your parents

Basically you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. This will NOT work.

My advice
1. Take at least a year off.
2. have him man up and be a couple
3. give it up for adoption
4. choose another career path.

There are many combinations you can choose from here, but some major change will be required for you. I'm sorry, you f***ed up, and you need to make big people decisions.

man, that was a pretty harsh post.

She's an M1, btw.

 

[Depakote]

man, that was a pretty harsh post.

She's an M1, btw.

No, that was really helpful... he got to act judgmental of someone in a really tough situation. Isn't that why we're all posting?

 

[SpookyDoc]

No, that was really helpful... he got to act judgmental of someone in a really tough situation. Isn't that why we're all posting?

I got some inspiration from your sig, Dep.

The more judgemental posters here =

This is for her help in her situation, not so you can throw around your moral absolutism and feel superior to somebody stuck in a hard situation.

 

[Dazed2012]

When I started this thread, I really didn't anticipate as many caring and helpful responses as I have received. For all of you who have helped, thank you. Although I know that what I do is up to me, it is comforting to know that other people have been in similar situations, and that even if things are going to be very difficult, they won't be impossible. I may not know exactly how I want to plan out the next years of my life, but I certainly have more ideas than I started with, and I'm grateful for that.

For those of you who have been less than helpful, I guess I really can't expect you to be compassionate to a situation you just can't understand. Yes, I realize that things are less than ideal, but no one intentionally did anything to make the situation into a bad one. True, maybe it wasn't intelligent to risk putting myself in such a situation, but I'm not the first girl to have a friends with benefits type relationship, and I'm sure I won't be the last. Regardless, this situation does not change my dreams or my goals and I am by no means willing to abandon them just to make things easier. I will figure things out, and I will make them work - that plan just isn't set in stone yet.

If nothing else, this thread has given me a place to clear my mind and mull over things that I can't talk about so openly in the real world quite yet. It really has helped.

 

[Mr Cookie Pants]

I assume that you're talking to me as one of those who has been "less than helpful". Did you come on here to ask for advice or did you really just want people to pat you on the shoulder and say "oh, everything is going to be just fine"? I didn't say you had to abandon your dreams or anything. Just some modification.

I think an important piece of info for the situation (and my assessment) is if your babydaddy's SO knows about the love child. I read it as you wont even mention it to her, which to me means you're getting shat upon. Which is not cool. If this is the case, then you need to man (figuratively) up and settle this deal. I don't think that he should get off scott free from fathering a child, only because "you dont want to mess up what he has". You're going to be going through enough hell/stress that it sounds like you need all the allies you can get. And he's definatley obligated to be one.

Sorry for coming off harsh, but the world is harsh.

 

[SpookyDoc]

You're going to be going through enough hell/stress that it sounds like you need all the allies you can get. And he's definatley obligated to be one.

Obligated allies, yeah, i'm sure we all need those. Forcing people to help you and ruining their future relationships is the solution to most interpersonal problems.

Friends with benefits situations do happen, and they almost always end badly one way or another, though I'm sorry yours ended up this way, OP. Good luck

 

[Trismegistus4]

I know the OP started this thread looking for advice and encouragement, but I have to say that I agree with Mr Cookie Pants' post, because that kind of attitude, widely held by the broader society, is what is necessary to keep situations like this to a minimum. People do things like what the OP did precisely because we have dropped the very stigmas, taboos, and "judgmentalism" being decried by so many in this thread.

You want a civilized society? You've got to keep a lid on people's sexual urges.

To put it another way:

no one intentionally did anything to make the situation into a bad one.

While this is nothing personal against you, as I don't even know you, society should view spreading one's legs for a guy you're not married to and when you're not ready to have a child as an intentional, and bad, act.

 

[SpookyDoc]

To each their own, "red stater in a blue world," lots of people have very very happy and rewarding relationships and lives with premarital sex. This isn't the place to proselytize, this is a place to help.

Something already happened, and the OP seeks a solution... adding "you shouldn't have spread your legs before marriage anyways" is irrelevant.

 

[Dazed2012]

I assume that you're talking to me as one of those who has been "less than helpful". Did you come on here to ask for advice or did you really just want people to pat you on the shoulder and say "oh, everything is going to be just fine"? I didn't say you had to abandon your dreams or anything. Just some modification.

I think an important piece of info for the situation (and my assessment) is if your babydaddy's SO knows about the love child. I read it as you wont even mention it to her, which to me means you're getting shat upon. Which is not cool. If this is the case, then you need to man (figuratively) up and settle this deal. I don't think that he should get off scott free from fathering a child, only because "you dont want to mess up what he has". You're going to be going through enough hell/stress that it sounds like you need all the allies you can get. And he's definatley obligated to be one.

Sorry for coming off harsh, but the world is harsh.

I wasn't targeting anything at you, specifically. All I was saying is that I didn't come here looking for advice, moral opinions, or pats on the back. I came here to ask if anyone had been through something similar so that I could have at least a slight idea of what to expect. If you haven't been through it (or don't know someone who has been through it), then you really aren't able to answer my question. I just came here looking for information so that I know what I'm getting myself into, and so that I can make a well thought-out decision, nothing more.

As for the father, he really isn't the bad guy in all of this. If I decide to keep this child, he fully intends to step up and help. At that point, he'll tell his girlfriend, we'll tell our families, and everything will be out in the open. Before we've made that decision for sure, there's just really no point in talking to everyone about the situation.

And I'm aware that the world is harsh, and I'm not easily offended enough to go and cry about it.

While this is nothing personal against you, as I don't even know you, society should view spreading one's legs for a guy you're not married to and when you're not ready to have a child as an intentional, and bad, act.

You are fully entitled to your opinion, but I really wasn't asking for your view on my moral status. I know that the decisions I've made have landed me where I am now, and I can take responsibility for that. I didn't come here looking for a moral compass, I just came looking for information.

 

[diosa428]

I know the OP started this thread looking for advice and encouragement, but I have to say that I agree with Mr Cookie Pants' post, because that kind of attitude, widely held by the broader society, is what is necessary to keep situations like this to a minimum. People do things like what the OP did precisely because we have dropped the very stigmas, taboos, and "judgmentalism" being decried by so many in this thread.

You want a civilized society? You've got to keep a lid on people's sexual urges.

To put it another way:

While this is nothing personal against you, as I don't even know you, society should view spreading one's legs for a guy you're not married to and when you're not ready to have a child as an intentional, and bad, act.

There is nothing "uncivilized" about having sex. Furthermore, describing someone who is having sex as "intentionally" getting pregnant is incorrect. Intentionally getting pregnant would suggest that she had sex with the purpose of getting pregnant. What one would call this situation is actually an accident. Additionally, if you are going to say that the OP intentionally got pregnant, then the father of the baby must have also intentionally impregnated her, but I'm willing to bet you won't agree with that statement. And a "bad" act? Really? How old are you?

 

[SpookyDoc]

There is nothing "uncivilized" about having sex. Furthermore, describing someone who is having sex as "intentionally" getting pregnant is incorrect. Intentionally getting pregnant would suggest that she had sex with the purpose of getting pregnant. What one would call this situation is actually an accident. Additionally, if you are going to say that the OP intentionally got pregnant, then the father of the baby must have also intentionally impregnated her, but I'm willing to bet you won't agree with that statement. And a "bad" act? Really? How old are you?

Don't feed the trolls man, he WOULD agree that the father intentionally impregnated her because that's the only reason we have sex, etc. Think like a fundie for a second and then just realize there's no use and let it die... this isn't the place.

 

[LadyWolverine]

This isn't the place to proselytize, this is a place to help.

How on earth was this proselytizing?? I'm as socially liberal as most of you, but Christ, has the world turned so rabidly liberal that accountability has gone by the wayside?? I agree that this is a sensitive issue, but the above poster was absolutely spot-on. If you have unprotected (or even "protected") sex with someone to whom you are not married and have no intention of having a long-term, serious relationship with, then expect to pay the consequences when something goes wrong. This is not being unsupportive, it's being realistic. The "man" in this situation DOES in fact need to recognize and accept his role.

I feel for the OP and her plight -I really do. It's a tough spot to be in. But there's a definite lesson to be learned from it. I'm not some religious right-winger who vehemently opposes premarital sex and abortion (in someone else's disgustingly ignorant and out-of-context words, a "fundie"), but when did personal responsibility go flying out the window? I think Mr Cookie Pants' prior post is extremely realistic - the OP needs to decide between one or some combination of the listed possibilities. Realistically, these are probably the options between which she will have to choose. Some may be easier than others, and there may be a way to find other options. But I don't think this answer was exceptionally harsh or off-target. I agree that this is not the place for proselytizing, but it's not the place for name-calling just because someone is trying to tell it like it is. Words like "fundie" have absolutely no constructive meaning and make the user appear just as ignorant as the group he/she is attempting to insult.

Honestly, if the majority people held this attitude, we'd probably see a lot less of what I keep seeing during 3rd year. It would save me many of the headaches I get from slamming my head against the wall.

I mean no offense to the OP - it takes guts to approach a bunch of strangers, admit your mistakes, and ask for advice. I'm certain you have kicked yourself over and over enough times for your blunder, and now you're at the point where you really want to weight the options. First and foremost, you need to get the father involved. It is absolutely, positively, 100% his issue to deal with as well. Your "plans" got interrupted - what does it matter how it affects his? Think about this from an objective perspective, and not as a "friend." It was his mutual decision to have sex. It should be his responsibility to deal with the repercussions. Also, if you plan on keeping the child, you should alert your parents or other support system ASAP. They will find out eventually, and the earlier, the easier it will be. Nobody wants to tell their parents that they F-ed up and got pregnant, but once the inital shock is over, the reality will set in - you are in your 20s (assumed), you are old enough to make your own decisions, and you are not a completely irresponsible person - it takes at least some semblance of responsibility not to fail out of college and get into medical school. It may take a couple of months (or even years), but eventually parents will come around. Especially if you plan on having the child, they will want to be part of your pregancy, and you will likely hurt them immensely if you don't tell them about it until later/after the child is born. You can think about it from the childish, "I don't owe them anything" perspective, or you can think about it from the adult, "They gave birth to me and raised me for at least part of my life and they really would love to be part of this and would probably be a great help" perspective. (Please keep in mind that I'm not saying that you are the former, just that many young women have this thought at the beginning of an unplanned pregnancy. It's OK to ask for help, even from your parents).

If I continue to write what I want to write, this is going to turn into a novel. OP, if you'd like some advice from another woman who is sympathetic to what you are going through, please feel free to PM me anytime. Otherwise, I wish you the very best.

 

[Studebug]

I think it is great that you are responsibly evaluating all your options. Being a mother is something no one can describe to you. If you decide to go the adoption route, just try to be emotionally prepared. Every time you see your sister's baby you will know that somewhere out there a child that grew in your womb would be about the same age doing the same things.

Another option for daycare is advertising through local churches. You should be able to hit trustworthy retired women or stay-at-home moms that could use some extra money. Retired women are really good because they have mothering experience and essentially no other responsibilities. I am a mother of 4 children ranging from 6-12 so I have seen many things. Lots of stay-at-home Mom's would be more than willing to keep the baby because it would allow them to earn money while also being with their own child. It would give your child someone to play with that is also in a "baby safe" home. I would not be to wild about letting a college kid take care of a baby. You also have the option of paying one of the mother's you meet through your daycare to watch the baby when they pick up their own child.

Another thing to consider is if you take a year off completely with the baby it is going to be an emotional shock to that baby and you to be separated for the long hours medical school will take. I had a friend that had the same thing happen to in mechanical engineering. She eventually switched to teaching because she couldn't hack the pressure. If you start daycare/sitter now then the baby will know nothing else.

We used Preparationg for Parenting a.k.a. Baby Wise for all of our children. It is basically scheduled feeding versus demand feeding. People have their own opinions. I have nothing to go on but my four children. All four of my children slept through the night between 5-8 weeks of age. I worked part-time as an engineer and breastfed them until they were about 15 months old. When I was gone, I just took my Medela breastpump to work and pumped about 20 minutes twice per day.Was it a juggle- absolutely. Many times I thought I can't do this. Once they turned 5, it was a piece of cake. When I have a bad day, the best thing to come home to is a big hug. My kids tells me over and over how much they love me. That immediately erases the stresses of the day no matter how bad they are.

One other thought because I had a Chem E professor that birthed four kids while teaching. She only missed 1 week of school when giving birth. I don't know what your timeline is. However they sleep SO MUCH the first 3 months at least. You would have to have a private sitter because no daycare would watch a baby that young. However, you would be able to continue on easily or at least finish up on a year (using mostly formula) and the baby would sleep through it. You couldn't be on your feet after one week. It would have to be a classrom setting (like 2nd year). She sat on her desk the entire time while lecturing. Of course it was a vaginal birth.

Good luck with everything. PM if you have any questions. Goodness knows I have changed my fair share of diapers!

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

This is a terrible situation. It's not like you had an "oops" moment with your fiancee or something. You got pregnant by a f--- buddy. Have you thought about how this will effect your "friend's" life or are you just so obsessed with having a baby that his future finances/situation don't matter to you?

I'm not a fan of abortion, but since you don't have a problem with it then you should definitely consider getting one. It would be the best option. Another option (my fav) would be adoption. Another option would be to allow your parents to raise the child.

You aren't emotionally/finacially ready to have a child. Not everybody is meant to be a mother.

 

[smq123]

You got pregnant by a f--- buddy. Have you thought about how this will effect your "friend's" life or are you just so obsessed with having a baby that his future finances/situation don't matter to you?

This is an awful thing to say to anyone!! This shows a disturbing lack of compassion, empathy, and tact on your part. It also demonstrates poor reading comprehension skills. If you had actually taken the time to READ the thread, the OP made it extremely clear that she was trying to minimize the inconvenience and the impact that this child made on the father.

I'm not a fan of abortion, but since you don't have a problem with it then you should definitely consider getting one. It would be the best option. Another option (my fav) would be adoption.

Thanks for sharing your opinion of what you would do. However, that's not what the OP asked for.

You aren't emotionally/finacially ready to have a child. Not everybody is meant to be a mother.

The rudeness of your phrasing in this post makes my jaw drop. I mean...really.

 

[Yachtclub]

I don't have any personal issue with abortion, but I have had fertility issues in the past and I can't help but wonder if this could be my only chance to ever have my own child.

Am I the only one whose flame-dar is going off here? How many 23 year old MSI's have had "fertility issues" in the past???? Unless she's got raging PCOS and was assuming (erroneously, apparently) that she would have trouble getting pregnant, being a 23 y/o with fertility issues implies that she had tried to get pregnant in the past.

Maybe I'm just a jackass, but I don't know a whole lot of professional, driven, single 23 y/o female med students with an F buddy who've already tried becoming pregnant.

Just an observation....

 

[Depakote]

Am I the only one whose flame-dar is going off here? How many 23 year old MSI's have had "fertility issues" in the past???? Unless she's got raging PCOS and was assuming (erroneously, apparently) that she would have trouble getting pregnant, being a 23 y/o with fertility issues implies that she had tried to get pregnant in the past.

Maybe I'm just a jackass, but I don't know a whole lot of professional, driven, single 23 y/o female med students with an F buddy who've already tried becoming pregnant.

Just an observation....

I think you're reading too much into it.

 

[Yachtclub]

I very well could be....

However, I'm skeptical of a person whose first post is an "OMG I'm pregnant in med school post" (and I say this in all hypocrisy as a frequent lurker/infrequent poster). The topic is a guaranteed winner that will generate a lot of discussion, because it plays to all of our deepest fears- choosing career over responsibility/parenthood.

Trust me, the only reason I read this thread in the first place is because I still get nervous about fatherhood EVERY MONTH, and I, unlike the OP, am a) engaged, and b) almost done school.

I'm just saying that this is a situation every med student fears, and that it provides great flaming material.

YC

 

[smq123]

Am I the only one whose flame-dar is going off here? How many 23 year old MSI's have had "fertility issues" in the past???? Unless she's got raging PCOS and was assuming (erroneously, apparently) that she would have trouble getting pregnant, being a 23 y/o with fertility issues implies that she had tried to get pregnant in the past.

Not really. Based on a person's presenting GYN complaint, we can predict how much trouble they may have getting pregnant.

Endometriosis that's very severe and painful will decrease your fertility. We can promise that, without knowing if you've ever even tried to get pregnant.

Ovarian cysts (not just PCOS).

An abnormally shaped uterus will decrease your fertility; again we just know that empirically. A uterine septum basically acts like an organic IUD.

Previous GI surgeries can also decrease your fertility, if you have enough post-operative adhesive disease.

I think you're reading WAY too much into it.

 

[Depakote]

I very well could be....

However, I'm skeptical of a person whose first post is an "OMG I'm pregnant in med school post" (and I say this in all hypocrisy as a frequent lurker/infrequent poster). The topic is a guaranteed winner that will generate a lot of discussion, because it plays to all of our deepest fears- choosing career over responsibility/parenthood.

Trust me, the only reason I read this thread in the first place is because I still get nervous about fatherhood EVERY MONTH, and I, unlike the OP, am a) engaged, and b) almost done school.

I'm just saying that this is a situation every med student fears, and that it provides great flaming material.

YC

I'm sufficiently convinced the OP is not trolling.

*note the SMod icon

 

[Dazed2012]

You aren't emotionally/finacially ready to have a child. Not everybody is meant to be a mother.

With all due respect, you don't know me, and you aren't in a position to tell me whether or not I am emotionally ready to have a child.

Am I the only one whose flame-dar is going off here? How many 23 year old MSI's have had "fertility issues" in the past???? Unless she's got raging PCOS and was assuming (erroneously, apparently) that she would have trouble getting pregnant, being a 23 y/o with fertility issues implies that she had tried to get pregnant in the past.

Maybe I'm just a jackass, but I don't know a whole lot of professional, driven, single 23 y/o female med students with an F buddy who've already tried becoming pregnant.

Just an observation....

However, I'm skeptical of a person whose first post is an "OMG I'm pregnant in med school post" (and I say this in all hypocrisy as a frequent lurker/infrequent poster). The topic is a guaranteed winner that will generate a lot of discussion, because it plays to all of our deepest fears- choosing career over responsibility/parenthood.

For the record, I have another account on SDN with a post history >1000. Because this is obviously a sensitive issue, and because my other username is somewhat recognizable, I chose to create a new account. (Oh, and before anyone gets upset about this, there is absolutely nothing in the SDN rules preventing the use of a new account to discuss a difficult subject).

As for the topic of my fertility issues, I haven't actively tried to conceive in the past, but I did go through gyn surgery when I was younger. I was warned by doctors at the time that the scar tissue would almost certainly cause problems for me down the line. Although I am single now, I was engaged for two years, and during that time my fiancee and I never conceived despite being somewhat careless in the birth control department. I took that as evidence that my doctors were probably right.

 

[Yachtclub]

Touche' on all points. I stand corrected.

That being said, I'll answer your original question. Med School will suck with a kid, but you already knew that. But, like any other situation, you will adapt and get better at it.

But seriously, make the babydaddy pay some dang child support, and stop letting him shirk all responsibility.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

This is an awful thing to say to anyone!! This shows a disturbing lack of compassion, empathy, and tact on your part. It also demonstrates poor reading comprehension skills. If you had actually taken the time to READ the thread, the OP made it extremely clear that she was trying to minimize the inconvenience and the impact that this child made on the father.



Thanks for sharing your opinion of what you would do. However, that's not what the OP asked for.



The rudeness of your phrasing in this post makes my jaw drop. I mean...really.

If I was truly rude, I would tell you what you could stuff in that open mouth of yours. However, I won't because I'm not rude truly.

You forgot to tell me that I'm going to be a terrible doctor, by the way.

I did not tell the OP what I would do. I offered suggestions. Perhaps you should read more slowly?

She is obsessed with having a child as evidence by her reference of "fertility" issues being a reason for keeping the child.

I feel no compassion or sympathy for persons who are creators of their own downfall. The only innocent person is the child. Condoms w/ spermicide plus birth control plus sex within a committed relationship (at the very least) =

I also forgot to add that I think the OP should seek HIV/STI testing asap since there is a history of lax protection.

With all due respect, you don't know me, and you aren't in a position to tell me whether or not I am emotionally ready to have a child.

And yet you seek advice on an internet forum...

Hmm...

 

[Depakote]

Alas, that is the problem with internet forums, OP... some people don't realize when they don't know anything about the advice they're giving.

caveat emptor.

 

[Dazed2012]

I did not tell the OP what I would do. I offered suggestions. Perhaps you should read more slowly?

She is obsessed with having a child as evidence by her reference of "fertility" issues being a reason for keeping the child.

I feel no compassion or sympathy for persons who are creators of their own downfall. The only innocent person is the child. Condoms w/ spermicide plus birth control plus sex within a committed relationship (at the very least) =

I also forgot to add that I think the OP should seek HIV/STI testing asap since there is a history of lax protection.



And yet you seek advice on an internet forum...

Hmm...

For the record, I never asked for anyone's opinion on what I should do. If you read my first post correctly, you would have gathered that I wanted to know what to expect with a newborn in medical school, nothing more.

Secondly, although I was lax with using protection years ago when I was in a committed relationship, that is absolutely not the case now. I had no interest in becoming pregnant at this point in time, and I was extremely careful even if I believed that my chances of conceiving were slim to begin with. Ironically, this happened now, when I was actively being safe instead of years ago when I wasn't. This situation in no way makes me "obsessed" with the idea of pregnancy or an HIV risk.

I never asked for or expected your sympathy, but I think that if you ever end up in a less than ideal situation you may start to understand that things aren't as black and white as you make them out to be.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say about that. I realize that we are going to disagree on many things and I don't want this to turn into a battle between the two of us. Let's just agree to disagree, and move on.

I do appreciate those of you who have given me the information I was looking for (even those of you who were a bit more blunt about it ). It has helped.

 

[midn]

?

This part of the forum is for med students; why are you even posting here?

That attack was completely uncalled for. Much could be said about your life based on your posts here, but at least Dazed is taking the high road and not pointing your flaws out.

 

[Mr hawkings]

if i was truly rude, i would tell you what you could stuff in that open mouth of yours. However, i won't because i'm not rude truly.

you forgot to tell me that i'm going to be a terrible doctor, by the way.




Hmm...

you are going to be a terrible doctor!

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

Let's just agree to disagree, and move on.

I wish you the best of luck.

This part of the forum is for med students; why are you even posting here?

That attack was completely uncalled for. Much could be said about your life based on your posts here, but at least Dazed is taking the high road and not pointing your flaws out.

Thanks for asking.

1. It's a free world/forum.
2. If I was not allowed to post here, there would be a disclaimer that forbids the dreaded pre-allos from entering.
3. I start medical school in a few months.

Who's attacking? You all act like anyone with an opinion that doesn't follow the group consensus of your little online friends is automatically wrong. And lol@ knowing ANYTHING about my life based on my posts here. This is the internet. I could be an 80 y/o psychiatric patient for all you know. Why would the OP attack me in a thread about her???

I have no flaws. I am perfection. Worship me.

you are going to be a terrible doctor!

 

[smq123]

If I was truly rude, I would tell you what you could stuff in that open mouth of yours. However, I won't because I'm not rude truly.

I did not tell the OP what I would do. I offered suggestions. Perhaps you should read more slowly?

First of all, if you were truly not as rude as you claimed, you would recognize the tactlessness of your statements, and apologize.

Secondly, you offered more than suggestions; you told the OP what YOU would do, and basically told her what option she should choose.

I'm not a fan of abortion, but since you don't have a problem with it then you should definitely consider getting one. It would be the best option. Another option (my fav) would be adoption. Another option would be to allow your parents to raise the child.

It is not the fact that you, as a not-yet-matriculated-med-student, posted in the allo forum. It is the fact that you wandered into a forum, posting incredibly tactless and insulting things. Your rudeness combined with the fact that you have yet to experience the difficult process of balancing med school demands with real life demands, just adds insult to injury.

While it IS a free internet forum, it is not like the Lounge, the Sociopolitical forum, or even the Underrepresented in Healthcare forums, in which insulting posts like yours might slip by unnoticed.

I feel no compassion or sympathy for persons who are creators of their own downfall. The only innocent person is the child. Condoms w/ spermicide plus birth control plus sex within a committed relationship (at the very least)

The OP wasn't looking for your sympathy or your compassion.

Secondly, even if you DON'T have sympathy or compassion for such people, that still does NOT mean that you can run your mouth off and say whatever comes to mind. Basic rules of courtesy STILL apply.

Finally, if you have no compassion or sympathy for persons who are creators of their own downfall, are you sure you want to be a physician? From the COPDers who have >100 pack-years histories, to the guy with MI x 4 and has a BMI of >40 and an A1C of 15 (on a good day!), to the chronic CHFer who just can't be bothered to take his HCTZ everyday, to the heavily jaundiced guy who desperately needs a new liver because he destroyed his with IVDU and alcohol, to the guy who comes into the ER every month with cocaine chest-pain....75% of your patients will be "creators of their own downfall."

 

[Trismegistus4]

Finally, if you have no compassion or sympathy for persons who are creators of their own downfall, are you sure you want to be a physician? From the COPDers who have >100 pack-years histories, to the guy with MI x 4 and has a BMI of >40 and an A1C of 15 (on a good day!), to the chronic CHFer who just can't be bothered to take his HCTZ everyday, to the heavily jaundiced guy who desperately needs a new liver because he destroyed his with IVDU and alcohol, to the guy who comes into the ER every month with cocaine chest-pain....75% of your patients will be "creators of their own downfall."

I don't think this is a good argument. Perhaps in one's professional capacity as a physician one should have compassion for people who are creators of their own downfall, but I don't think sympathy should be required. Are you saying that doctors must believe that people who engage in self-destructive behaviors should not be judged harshly and negatively by society? In the exam room, I'm not going to say "you cheap slut" to a woman who got knocked up by a f*ck-buddy like the OP, or "you fat slob" to the guy with 4 MIs and a BMI > 40, but I think the broader society's attitude toward such people should be exactly that, so that these social problems are kept to a minimum.

 

[smq123]

Are you saying that doctors must believe that people who engage in self-destructive behaviors should not be judged harshly and negatively by society? In the exam room, I'm not going to say "you cheap slut" to a woman who got knocked up by a f*ck-buddy like the OP, or "you fat slob" to the guy with 4 MIs and a BMI > 40, but I think the broader society's attitude toward such people should be exactly that, so that these social problems are kept to a minimum.

Well, from a purely philosophical standpoint, no, I don't believe that "society" should judge people harshly and negatively. This is just because for every person who points to others and judges harshly, I can find 8 or 9 things that THAT person did that are incredibly (and equally) stupid.

On a day to day basis, I don't care what society thinks, really.

But, regardless of what I think, what I do should (ideally) still be dictated by common courtesy. I may think to myself, while examining a guy with multiple face lacs, "Well, if you hadn't gotten high, deluded yourself into thinking that you could fly, and then face-planted in the sidewalk while trying to take flight, then you wouldn't be here," but there's no reason to share that with him. I can, gently, try to get him to realize that his drug habits are counterproductive, but no need to speak before I think.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

First of all, if you were truly not as rude as you claimed, you would recognize the tactlessness of your statements, and apologize.

I'm not apologizing because I see nothing wrong with my statements. My posts were not insulting, and I violated none of the terms of service.

Secondly, you offered more than suggestions; you told the OP what YOU would do, and basically told her what option she should choose.

No, I didn't. For example, I'm vehemently opposed to abortion, but I offered that as a suggestion since the OP isn't opposed to them. How would that be what I would do?

She's a grown woman. She doesn't have to listen to me or anybody else about her decisions.

It is not the fact that you, as a not-yet-matriculated-med-student, posted in the allo forum. It is the fact that you wandered into a forum, posting incredibly tactless and insulting things. Your rudeness combined with the fact that you have yet to experience the difficult process of balancing med school demands with real life demands, just adds insult to injury.

Your arrogance amuses me.

By that train of thought, none of the men in this thread should've posted as they have no experience being capable of carrying life. Also, women who have never been pregnant without being married shouldn't have posted in this thread because they don't have any firsthand experience of being a prospective single parent.

I have balanced working 2 jobs with a full-time course load & writing a thesis. I'm not completely ignorant of "balancing med school demands with real life demands".

While it IS a free internet forum, it is not like the Lounge, the Sociopolitical forum, or even the Underrepresented in Healthcare forums, in which insulting posts like yours might slip by unnoticed.

Oh, noez! You've been searching for my previous posts. U know I post in the minority forum, don't u?

The OP wasn't looking for your sympathy or your compassion.

No, she wasn't, but her groupies certainly were as evidenced by the outrage concerning my posts.

Finally, if you have no compassion or sympathy for persons who are creators of their own downfall, are you sure you want to be a physician?

From the COPDers who have >100 pack-years histories, to the guy with MI x 4 and has a BMI of >40 and an A1C of 15 (on a good day!), to the chronic CHFer who just can't be bothered to take his HCTZ everyday, to the heavily jaundiced guy who desperately needs a new liver because he destroyed his with IVDU and alcohol, to the guy who comes into the ER every month with cocaine chest-pain....75% of your patients will be "creators of their own downfall."

Of course. Where else can I quench my thirst for power and desire to hold meaningless lives in the palm of my hand while earning 6 figures?

Thank you for indirectly telling me that I will be a terrible doctor.

I've interacted with many physicians. I would say that most feel paternalistic pity moreso than true compassion towards their patients during those long 15 minutes of doctor-patient interaction. Except for Dr. 90210. He's a bleeding heart.

How I feel professionally is very different than how I feel about situations socially. (And everybody gets the same SOC regardless of circumstances.) Also, feelings are very situation-specific. Contrast the case of a girl with anorexia vs. a woman who is obese. Contrast the case a leukemia victim near a chemical plant with a melanoma victim who went to tanning beds her entire life. All tragic circumstances, but do they all elicit the same amount of compassion (if any)?

The OP's problem could be easily solved in addition to being easily preventable. Also, it doesn't just involve her. It also involves her "friend" and the fetus/future baby. Most people would feel differently towards a single guy who smokes at home & gets lung cancer vs. a married man who smokes at home & gets lung cancer in addition to exposing his asthmatic kids to secondhand smoke.

This issue is done with, man. We can agree to disagree or you can continue to attack me & google my post history.

 

[smq123]

I have balanced working 2 jobs with a full-time course load & writing a thesis. I'm not completely ignorant of "balancing med school demands with real life demands".

Any of those jobs or classes demand that you get up before the typical daycare opens?

Oh, noez! You've been searching for my previous posts. U know I post in the minority forum, don't u?

No. You can just see it occasionally - people who post in more "casual" forums then come into here, clinical rotations, or one of the residency forums, and post in the same manner as they do in, say, the Lounge.

Thank you for indirectly telling me that I will be a terrible doctor.

Who said anything about you being a terrible doctor? Your skill as a doctor doesn't really depend on how tactful you are, or what kind of bedside manner you are. It was just a question of how long you could tolerate basic patient contact without your head exploding.

Don't read so much into everything. You make it sound like you're projecting.

Also, feelings are very situation-specific. Contrast the case of a girl with anorexia vs. a woman who is obese. Contrast the case a leukemia victim near a chemical plant with a melanoma victim who went to tanning beds her entire life. All tragic circumstances, but do they all elicit the same amount of compassion (if any)?

The OP's problem could be easily solved in addition to being easily preventable. Also, it doesn't just involve her. It also involves her "friend" and the fetus/future baby. Most people would feel differently towards a single guy who smokes at home & gets lung cancer vs. a married man who smokes at home & gets lung cancer in addition to exposing his asthmatic kids to secondhand smoke.

Yeah, that's my point.

Most of your patients are going to be the latter - i.e. people whose bad health problems are due to their own crappy habits. Not all, but the majority. You see lots of this in transplant surgery, trauma surgery, EM, FM, IM, OB/gyn, ENT (if you do ENT onc), ortho, neurosurg, neurology....the list goes on and on. It's slightly worse in peds, in that you'll see lots of kids whose problems are caused by their parents.

It's not a question of what "most people" would "feel." "Most people" can "feel" whatever they want - their lives, unlike the lives of nurses and physicians, are rarely THAT burdened by the existence of people with such lousy health. Yeah, their taxes go up to support the burden that these people place on health care, but, relatively speaking, that's not a big deal. When you're the one, though, who has to drive in at 3 AM to see some drunk kid who decided it would be fun to drag race....yeah, you may provide the same standard of care to everyone, but how long before you get emotionally burnt out from frustration?

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

J. Peterman: Well, I see what's going on in here. I am smack dab in the middle of the good old fashioned cat fight.[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica][FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]..

 

[Keona]

With your discussing of the male in this picture, you also have to realize that everything could change after he sees his child for the first time, whatever decisions you make now. The relationship I know of similar to yours is only held together by the child, they argue constantly and if not for the baby they would not still be together. They both love the child above everything else, but their personalities do not seem compatible. This post is for whoever was suggesting that the OP and the male get into a relationship. Do whatever will be best for the child, whatever you and the father ultimately choose.

 

[Trismegistus4]

Well, from a purely philosophical standpoint, no, I don't believe that "society" should judge people harshly and negatively. This is just because for every person who points to others and judges harshly, I can find 8 or 9 things that THAT person did that are incredibly (and equally) stupid.

This makes no sense. We can't have societal standards because some people occasionally violate those standards? What's next, should we have no laws because some people break the law?

 

[smq123]

This makes no sense. We can't have societal standards because some people occasionally violate those standards? What's next, should we have no laws because some people break the law?

No. My point is that no one, even those people who are the most heavily critical, can rarely follow these "societal standards." And so, as a result, it's hypocritical to point fingers at others.

You'll see this when working with patients. My favorite was the HIV+ homeless guy who was noncompliant with his meds, never held down a job, and was a repeat IVDU (which would explain the HIV). And yet, despite HIS own shortcomings, he still felt enough moral superiority left in him to go off on a 15 minute long lecture about how the gays and homosexuals were "disgusting," "creepy," and "the downfall of America."

Sure, there are "societal standards." Does that mean that everyone measures up to those standards all the time? No, no one does. But, unless you DO measure up to those standards 100% of the time, I don't think that you have any right to look at someone else and start criticizing them.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

smq123: thank you, you're comments here have been wonderful.

OP: several comments

1.) I am male, so that may be an issue in terms of how you receive my opinions.

2.) Personally, I think it's great that you're dedicated to keeping this kid rather than aborting. Not wanting to expand along those lines. I've heard too often of women putting off having children because of careers and regretting it. Here's an example of a very reputable scientist, Carla Shatz, recently chair of the neurobiology department at Harvard:

http://www.funjournal.org/downloads/PaulShatz.pdf

"I fully expected while I was growing up, that I would have kids and a family. I was married but I put off the decision to have kids for too long and when it finally came time to have them, I found that I could not conceive. The subsequent infertility treatments were very time consuming, so what time was saved by not having kids got spent in the difficult struggle to conceive."

And from this article: Science 17 December 2004:
Vol. 306. no. 5704, pp. 2031 - 2033

As a rare woman faculty member at Stanford Medical School in the late 1970s, neurobiologist Carla Shatz put her quest for tenure ahead of her desire to start a family. But as she toiled away in the lab, working on a range of problems in developmental biology, her biological clock was ticking faster than she realized. By the time she earned tenure in her late 30s, her reproductive years had passed. "For 4 years, I tried every fertility treatment that was available," says Shatz, now 57 and a professor at Harvard University. "Nothing helped." The disappointment, she says, contributed to the breakup of her marriage.

So, know that many women who ultimately wanted children but put it off for career reasons ended up regretting the decision when fertility issues came up.

3.) I think you should tell your parents. They very well might be angry for a while but will likely melt and want to be a part of this kid's life, and could end up being a superb support network. Are they more socially or morally conservative? In other words, do you think they would prefer you to get rid of your baby because of social disapproval, or would they be opposed to abortion and support you in keeping it?

4.) Unless the father is a terrible match, I would not write him off or excuse him. In fact, I wouldn't move out of the apartment, new relationship or not. Initially, I would also not drag in the law in the form of child support payments. It is better initially to give him a chance to approach the child on his own terms. He very well might *want* to develop a relationship and provide support when he sees the baby. It is better to let this interest and affection develop naturally rather than force a connection by legal methods. However, if after a short while you see that he has developed no interest in the baby, you'll of course have to seek child support.

5.) I would suggest going through second year and taking your board exam. This might depend on support you can get from your parents. If you can engage them, perhaps during really intense times, like getting ready for Step 1, you could ask your mother to take of the child. The first year in a child's life is really crucial in terms of developing a bond.

6.) After Step 1, I would take off 2 years to take care of your child. Maybe you could get a job at your medical school doing clinical research or an MPH or something a bit less time intensive. Basic science research is probably too time intensive and wouldn't have a high yield in a short time, but I could certainly imagine a more easy-going pace to clinical research and perhaps some of the work could be done from home. You could probably get a few publications out of two years and this would come across as a strength for residencies.

 

[Trismegistus4]

No. My point is that no one, even those people who are the most heavily critical, can rarely follow these "societal standards." And so, as a result, it's hypocritical to point fingers at others.

You'll see this when working with patients. My favorite was the HIV+ homeless guy who was noncompliant with his meds, never held down a job, and was a repeat IVDU (which would explain the HIV). And yet, despite HIS own shortcomings, he still felt enough moral superiority left in him to go off on a 15 minute long lecture about how the gays and homosexuals were "disgusting," "creepy," and "the downfall of America."

Sure, there are "societal standards." Does that mean that everyone measures up to those standards all the time? No, no one does. But, unless you DO measure up to those standards 100% of the time, I don't think that you have any right to look at someone else and start criticizing them.

This is the kind of blatant lie that the cultural left has been using to undermind our civilization for decades. No one can measure up to a standard 100% of the time, therefore no one has the right to criticize anyone else, therefore society cannot have standards.

Are you aware that illegitimacy rates have skyrocketed since the sexual revolution of the 1960s? And that this skyrocketing has corresponded with the abandonment of the stigma against unwed motherhood, which has reached the point where I'm sure some people are snickering at me for using such an "archaic" term as illegitimacy, because hey, who are we to say that a child born out of wedlock is illegitimate? In fact, we've reached the point where even the "conservative" Republican President we had for the past 8 years routinely used the grotesque neologism "single moms," inappropriately lumping together the three very different categories of widows, divorcees, and women who had never been married to the father of their children, tacitly imputing equal legitimacy to all 3 situations, and routinely praised these "single moms" as heroes who have the toughest job in America and need our help. We've reached the point where the allgededly "far-right fundamentalist extremist" supporters of a Republican female Vice-Presidential candidate couldn't wait to fall all over themselves praising and congratulating said candidate's teenage daughter for her unwed pregnancy.

Ever heard the saying, "when you subsidize something, you get more of it?" Subsidization extends to the dismantling of a public sense of morality, and beyond that to an inverted state where destructive behaviors are praised and put on a pedestal while their opposites, the socially constructive behaviors that make a safe, stable civilization possible are derided ("puritanism," "prudery," "Victorianism.")

If it were impossible for people to live up to social standards, the illegitimacy rate would not have been 4% in the 1950s when we had such standards vs. the over a third it is today when we've abandoned them.

But hey, I guess it's better to let our civilization slide into barbarism than to "point fingers."

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

This is the kind of blatant lie that the cultural left has been using to undermind our civilization for decades. No one can measure up to a standard 100% of the time, therefore no one has the right to criticize anyone else, therefore society cannot have standards.

Are you aware that illegitimacy rates have skyrocketed since the sexual revolution of the 1960s? And that this skyrocketing has corresponded with the abandonment of the stigma against unwed motherhood, which has reached the point where I'm sure some people are snickering at me for using such an "archaic" term as illegitimacy, because hey, who are we to say that a child born out of wedlock is illegitimate? In fact, we've reached the point where even the "conservative" Republican President we had for the past 8 years routinely used the grotesque neologism "single moms," inappropriately lumping together the three very different categories of widows, divorcees, and women who had never been married to the father of their children, tacitly imputing equal legitimacy to all 3 situations, and routinely praised these "single moms" as heroes who have the toughest job in America and need our help.

Ever heard the saying, "when you subsidize something, you get more of it?" Subsidization extends to the dismantling of a public sense of morality.

If it were impossible for people to live up to social standards, the illegitimacy rate would not have been 4% in the 1950s when we had such standards vs. the over a third it is today when we've abandoned them.

But hey, I guess it's better to let our civilization slide into barbarism than to "point fingers."

What you're saying, although it might be true in general, is completely irrelevant to the case at hand. This woman is pregnant. This cannot be undone. She can only abort this baby and cover up its very existence from cruel people like you (considering your conservatism, I would think you would be against abortion, but it is precisely your attitude that encourages an already pregnant woman to consider abortion more seriously), or she can bare this baby and give it away or raise it on her own.

Try to come up with something useful for the OP given her situation at present.

 

[Trismegistus4]

So, know that many women who ultimately wanted children but put it off for career reasons ended up regretting the decision when fertility issues came up.

But the solution to that is for women who want children to get married young and have them then, with the understanding that they must put off a career to do so, not for them to get knocked up by sperm-donor cads and raise the resultant bastard by themselves.

 

[smq123]

This is the kind of blatant lie that the cultural left has been using to undermind our civilization for decades. No one can measure up to a standard 100% of the time, therefore no one has the right to criticize anyone else, therefore society cannot have standards.

So, you're saying that a society can't have standards unless it vigorously and harshly enforces those standards?

Isn't that what most Middle Eastern countries do? The ones where they physically punish any woman who leaves her head uncovered, or any man who doesn't follow the Koran's teachings to the letter?

Ever heard the saying, "when you subsidize something, you get more of it?"

Ever heard the saying, "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?"

My point is just that, as an imperfect human being, I'm not going to harshly criticize someone else for making a mistake. Or is hypocrisy an acceptable societal standard?

 

[SpookyDoc]

If it were impossible for people to live up to social standards, the illegitimacy rate would not have been 4% in the 1950s when we had such standards vs. the over a third it is today when we've abandoned them.

The divorce rate was lower back then, too! Let's go back to a time where societies beliefs made people stay in abusive relationships instead of engaging in such destructive behaviors as divorce!